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Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory


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19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Slavery was only one factor in the Civil War.

I have no idea what they are teaching in primary school.  I feel like they could just skip the whole science and social studies curriculum through 4th or 5th grade and kids would come out knowing just as much.

Slavery and the resentment and anger that disputes about it had raised between slave/free states for years was the primary reason for the Civil War. It is evident in each of their Declarations of Independence from the Union, although some say it more directly than others. I had to relearn this as an adult, however. I was taught in a KY HS that it was about states' rights, but that was a distortion of the truth. My teacher, who in most other ways was a good teacher, impressed upon us all that slavery was actually not the main cause at all! It's a shame. I'm not all that old, we weren't a confederate state, and there's no excuse for it to have been the reason given for the war in an AP class! And you know what? My DS was taught exactly the same thing in his APUSH class a couple years ago. States' Rights? The right of states to do what.....

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

As for the bolded- I completely agree. The only use early social studies and science have is for instilling a love of those subjects, IMO. I think that's a worthy goal, but the focus on facts seems to be a waste of time- kids will 100% forget which is why they learn it again in middle and high school. I think for bright kids who actually remember, it does some harm as they feel it is dull and repetitive and they tend to tune out in HS, when they're actually really ready to think about it, because they think they know it all already.

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you have any context for this quote? A link? The law, currently on the Gov’s desk, doesn’t support this statement. How do you teach ‘morality’ to middle and high school students without discussion of the ways people have been sorted and marginalized? It’s ironic that this quote includes ‘civic knowledge’ too when the proposed law specifically discourages hands-on civic engagement.

I think the distinction is that teaching about the KKK, slavery, and racism, as unfortunate artifacts of the past is ok. Teaching about how it still affects society today is the problem because it opens many cans of worms. How can we have problems today without discussing the causes, what factors contribute to its continuance, who benefits, etc? 

Teaching morality without those discussions is also easy. It's like the character traits of the month for elementary school. They will talk about honesty, integrity, compassion, great American heroes, and all of that will be taught on a micro level without touching on any macro/systemic issues. 

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1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

You don’t need to read the snippet, you can follow the link and read the whole thing in context. It is a ban. It prohibits content. It’s less than two pages, double spaced, 12 pt. TNR so it’s hard to select more than I did without copying the entire law. 🙄 The plain language is there. It is prohibited to require future teachers to learn about or engage in culturally responsive teaching.

ETA: for a moment, let’s game out what this could mean. A state could, theoretically, say that structural engineers don’t need to know about material strength and ban instruction in the subject. Crazy, right? It’s compelled learning, compelled speech. That’s the equivalent. Something necessary and critical to doing the job skillfully is being banned.

I haven't had time to go to the link (I am gonna get in trouble for not finishing some legal documents as it is).  But most of what you quoted was not a ban on teaching, but a requirement that those who don't want to participate in certain activities be allowed to opt out without being punished.

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I am wondering if this is going to limit general Ed options for those going for teacher Ed as well. The class my teen took DE was in the sociology department, but a majority of the kids taking it were either planning for careers in education or in social work. I know that the exceptional education class my teen took last semester included discussion of similar issues and how they can impact special education and diagnosis of same. Children's an adolescent lit classes often involve reading and discussing literature that explicitly focuses on such issues. Would it be possible to read "Roll of Thunder, Hear Me Cry" or "The Hate U Give" in a literature class in a state with such a ban, either for prospective teachers, or in their future classroom? The Hate U Give was the single book named as most influential by incoming students at the private college my kid is attending in the fall, which has a major social justice focus,  and almost all the kids read it at school. 

 

I'm also concerned about potential fall out at the college level, like, say, for state HBCUs. There have already been situations where restrictions that were supposed to reduce discrimination limit funding for such institutions, to the detriment of their students. 

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I think if I were presented with a book banning, I would inform the students on day one "these are some banned books that I'm not allowed to assign.  Nobody can stop you from reading them on your own though.  Or discussing them amongst yourselves outside of assigned classwork."

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23 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I am wondering if this is going to limit general Ed options for those going for teacher Ed as well. The class my teen took DE was in the sociology department, but a majority of the kids taking it were either planning for careers in education or in social work. I know that the exceptional education class my teen took last semester included discussion of similar issues and how they can impact special education and diagnosis of same. Children's an adolescent lit classes often involve reading and discussing literature that explicitly focuses on such issues. Would it be possible to read "Roll of Thunder, Hear Me Cry" or "The Hate U Give" in a literature class in a state with such a ban, either for prospective teachers, or in their future classroom? The Hate U Give was the single book named as most influential by incoming students at the private college my kid is attending in the fall, which has a major social justice focus,  and almost all the kids read it at school. 

 

I'm also concerned about potential fall out at the college level, like, say, for state HBCUs. There have already been situations where restrictions that were supposed to reduce discrimination limit funding for such institutions, to the detriment of their students. 

Same. As you know, my daughter is strongly considering attending an HBCU to feel less ‘on the spot’ and more ‘normal’, also to have a more nurturing and supportive learning environment. My collegiate friends have children who are considering this option as well. They’ve long been underfunded but I’d hate to see the curriculum also circumscribed by malign actors.

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7 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think if I were presented with a book banning, I would inform the students on day one "these are some banned books that I'm not allowed to assign.  Nobody can stop you from reading them on your own though.  Or discussing them amongst yourselves outside of assigned classwork."

C’mon, you know that’s not a thing. Most kids hate to read and barely get through the assigned content.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

Slavery was only one factor in the Civil War.

I have no idea what they are teaching in primary school.  I feel like they could just skip the whole science and social studies curriculum through 4th or 5th grade and kids would come out knowing just as much.


before we homeschooled we tried two different brick and mortar schools, at each of which my ds was the most obviously PoC child in the class...  the biggest problem imo was not what was said or taught as curriculum, but what was done. Particularly at his Waldorf school, there were some actual discrimination issues going on very different than the espoused words.  I would rather have a Dont teach “about” racism, and rather actually treat all the children as equally deserving regardless of external skin, eye, and hair color (and also as equally deserving whether or not their parents drive a Mercedes and are presumed likely to donate $$$) 

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re legislative bans superseding...

1 hour ago, SKL said:

So back to the bans ... from what I can gather from the quotes here and what little I've heard elsewhere (I am working on a big work deadline these days), there are badly written laws being proposed/passed in response to badly written laws/proposals.  Not really anything new IMO.

Was there actual legislation or proposed legislation that actually required.... these programs that have been rhetorically labeled "CRT"... in any of the states now legislatively restricting the programs along with a vastly wider set of content?

Or just individual schools implementing clunky / ill-advised programs that -- after Rufo & Tucker & Co started beating the drumbeat -- parents started complaining about?

I didn't follow all the links, but all the ones I did follow spoke to *particular schools* implementing clunky-programs-mislabeled-as-CRT.  No state legislation that *required* them.

 

A town or district BoE decision to change curriculum in response to parent feedback in a particular district is a very different thing than these statewide bans that -- weirdly -- have popped up in thirty states, all at the same time, in the six months since Rufo started whispering in his buddies' ears and a swansong Executive Order was issued.

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On 6/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Plum said:

America is known as the land of opportunity. Everyone has a shot here. Are there no minorities that have come from nothing and become successful?

But not everyone has the *same* shot.

[Deleted the rest; didn't express myself well!]

Edited by MercyA
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On 6/11/2021 at 4:25 PM, Pam in CT said:

(whose participants, it seems relevant to note now that the thread has moved on to questioning whether white supremacy really is a threat today, toted Confederate flags along with their Camp Auschwitz hoodies and swastikas.)

Right? If anyone thinks white supremacy isn't rearing its ugly head right now, they need to come to my neck of the woods. I see Confederate flags everywhere. On car bumpers, hats, and t-shirts, flying from the back of trucks, hanging in people's garages. And the idea that's it's "Southern pride" is a bit ridiculous, since I live in northern Indiana.

Actually, every year at our town's fair there is a vendor selling (among other things) Confederate merchandise. I'm going to try to get pictures this year. Debating whether I want to raise a stink. I'm all for free speech, but I'm sure vendors need to be approved by the town and I hardly think it makes for a welcoming environment for all. 😠 Honestly I think it's disgusting.

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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

C’mon, you know that’s not a thing. Most kids hate to read and barely get through the assigned content.

This is patently false.  Lots of kids love to read, and having suggestions that sound like a dare are enticing.  That would have totally worked for me and most of my good friends in high school and college, despite majoring in a STEM field.  We would totally have wanted to know what the fuss was about.

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On 6/11/2021 at 5:39 PM, Frances said:

Unfortunately I don’t have a hard time believing much of what is done in some elementary schools is not age appropriate. And not just assignments and lessons, but things like very little recess, lots of seat time, and no talking at lunch.

WTH? This is a thing? What in the world. 😞 

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

Slavery was only one factor in the Civil War.

I have no idea what they are teaching in primary school.  I feel like they could just skip the whole science and social studies curriculum through 4th or 5th grade and kids would come out knowing just as much.

While the first paragraph is technically true, slavery was the dominant and precipitating factor in the Civil War.  

The issue of states rights is interesting.  It goes back to whether the US is a nation or a confederation of mostly independent countries called states.  But the precipitating issue of the question being raised at the time of the Civil War was whether the states had a mutual aid obligation to consider ‘foreign’ slaves to be property or not, and the overall morality of considering people to be property at all.  

 

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re symbols of white supremacy, and "distress" to students based on their race

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right? If anyone thinks white supremacy isn't rearing its ugly head right now, they need to come to my neck of the woods. I see Confederate flags everywhere. On car bumpers, hats, and t-shirts, flying from the back of trucks, hanging in people's garages. And the idea that's it's "Southern pride" is a bit ridiculous, since I live in northern Indiana.

Actually, every year at our town's fair there is a vendor selling (among other things) Confederate merchandise. I'm going to try to get pictures this year. Debating whether I want to raise a stink. I'm all for free speech, but I'm sure vendors need to be approved by the town and I hardly think it makes for a welcoming environment for all. 😠 Honestly I think it's disgusting.

Well, I dunno if Indiana has yet instituted a CRT ban, but if so you might try appealing, on the grounds that a symbol used consistently since the 1860s to promote the "superiority" of one race and instill "distress" on another is illegal under the ban.

Just.Sayin'.

 

 

 

 

 

[For realz, I mostly support the 1A right of white supremacists to tote their vile supremacist symbols in most spaces. I'd argue about school spaces, though.  If we're going to ban 1619 material in K-12 spaces, I'd make the case we can ban Confederate material too.

Consistent principles and all that.]

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15 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

This is patently false.  Lots of kids love to read, and having suggestions that sound like a dare are enticing.  That would have totally worked for me and most of my good friends in high school and college, despite majoring in a STEM field.  We would totally have wanted to know what the fuss was about.

*We*, on this forum, do not represent the vast majority of Americans, let alone American youth in public schools.

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24 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right? If anyone thinks white supremacy isn't rearing its ugly head right now, they need to come to my neck of the woods. I see Confederate flags everywhere. On car bumpers, hats, and t-shirts, flying from the back of trucks, hanging in people's garages. And the idea that's it's "Southern pride" is a bit ridiculous, since I live in northern Indiana.

Actually, every year at our town's fair there is a vendor selling (among other things) Confederate merchandise. I'm going to try to get pictures this year. Debating whether I want to raise a stink. I'm all for free speech, but I'm sure vendors need to be approved by the town and I hardly think it makes for a welcoming environment for all. 😠 Honestly I think it's disgusting.

If you raise a stink, they might threaten to shoot you.

I’m only half kidding.

I think it’s disgusting, too, but you could be setting yourself up for trouble if you protest, unless you think a lot of the other residents will back you up.

 I know that protesting that vendor is the right thing to do,  but I would be concerned for your safety. 

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3 hours ago, SKL said:

Well if it's any comfort, most young people entering teacher education programs are less culturally ignorant than the average education students of past generations, thanks to the internet, more natural integration in schools, more culturally sensitive modern literature, and so on.  So I really think things will get better regardless of those reactionary laws (which probably won't last long).

And there are still tons of wonderful teachers who will do the right thing some way or other.

I think this is not necessarily true.

While no generation can be stereotyped as a whole, more recent generations are less enthusiastic about democracy, and more likely to endorse authoritarian attitudes than the generations preceding them. 

That leads me to think the risk of more illiberal  teaching is present. 

 

Edited by Melissa Louise
Changed reactionary to illiberal
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14 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re symbols of white supremacy, and "distress" to students based on their race

Well, I dunno if Indiana has yet instituted a CRT ban, but if so you might try appealing, on the grounds that a symbol used consistently since the 1860s to promote the "superiority" of one race and instill "distress" on another is illegal under the ban.

Just.Sayin'.

 

 

 

 

 

[For realz, I mostly support the 1A right of white supremacists to tote their vile supremacist symbols in most spaces. I'd argue about school spaces, though.  If we're going to ban 1619 material in K-12 spaces, I'd make the case we can ban Confederate material too.

Consistent principles and all that.]

Particularly since the Confederacy essentially declared themselves a foreign power and proceeded to lose a war against the US.  I have no sympathy whatsoever for glorifying it in any school.  

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31 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think this is not necessarily true.

While no generation can be stereotyped as a whole, more recent generations are less enthusiastic about democracy, and more likely to endorse authoritarian attitudes than the generations preceding them. 

That leads me to think the risk of more illiberal  teaching is present. 

 

I agree with this too, not WRT to the teachers but to the youth. The lack of democratic (small D) progress on their priorities is leading to more authoritarian ideas. The kids do lean left  and what they’re watching is right-leaning cohorts behave in illiberal ways. If folks think that won’t be turned around when they have power, well, I don’t know what to say. ://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/the-generation-gap-in-american-politics/. It makes it that much more crazy to stunt their knowledge and participation in the institutions of democracy now when they could be learning very different lessons about discussion and compromise. In so many, many ways, these proposals/rules/laws are all about short-term gain, long-term pain b/c but they’re demonstrating a willful disregard for public sentiment (no one here is supporting blanket bans) that will not be so comfy on the other foot.

Edited by Sneezyone
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27 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

If you raise a stink, they might threaten to shoot you.

I’m only half kidding.

I think it’s disgusting, too, but you could be setting yourself up for trouble if you protest, unless you think a lot of the other residents will back you up.

 I know that protesting that vendor is the right thing to do,  but I would be concerned for your safety. 

You are so sweet, Cat. I appreciate your concern. ❤️

I know it could lead to trouble and if my DD wasn't still living at home I wouldn't care as much. Before I do anything I'll make sure to have a serious discussion with my DH. 

Edited by MercyA
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39 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re symbols of white supremacy, and "distress" to students based on their race

Well, I dunno if Indiana has yet instituted a CRT ban, but if so you might try appealing, on the grounds that a symbol used consistently since the 1860s to promote the "superiority" of one race and instill "distress" on another is illegal under the ban.

Just.Sayin'.

 

 

 

 

 

[For realz, I mostly support the 1A right of white supremacists to tote their vile supremacist symbols in most spaces. I'd argue about school spaces, though.  If we're going to ban 1619 material in K-12 spaces, I'd make the case we can ban Confederate material too.

Consistent principles and all that.]

I agree that, while the legislative language I've seen isn't great, a lot of it could work both ways.  To the extent this language does pass / has passed into law, people of all persuasions should look at whether it creates opportunities for their causes.

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Forgive me if this link has already been shared here. 

This article talks about an advocacy group called No Left Turn in Education which appears to be involved in all of the examples cited in this thread. 

Critical race theory battle invades school boards - with the help from conservative groups

IIRC, the parents who testified at the school board hearing were in Loudon County, Virginia. 

In wealthy Loudoun County, Virginia, parents face threats in battle over equity in schools

This Twitter threads provides some additional details. 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

*We*, on this forum, do not represent the vast majority of Americans, let alone American youth in public schools.

We may read more on average than the median American, but lots of young people do enjoy reading and do read beyond the curriculum.  In fact, it is not unlikely that a "banned book" read by some kids would make a bigger impact than the same book assigned to the whole class.  Because even readers may pay less attention to books their teachers assign vs. their own reading choices.

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1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Right? If anyone thinks white supremacy isn't rearing its ugly head right now, they need to come to my neck of the woods. I see Confederate flags everywhere. On car bumpers, hats, and t-shirts, flying from the back of trucks, hanging in people's garages. And the idea that's it's "Southern pride" is a bit ridiculous, since I live in northern Indiana.

Actually, every year at our town's fair there is a vendor selling (among other things) Confederate merchandise. I'm going to try to get pictures this year. Debating whether I want to raise a stink. I'm all for free speech, but I'm sure vendors need to be approved by the town and I hardly think it makes for a welcoming environment for all. 😠 Honestly I think it's disgusting.

Agreed! Come to my neck of the woods too. Michigan has a ton of this crap everywhere and very dangerous militia to back it up.

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11 minutes ago, SKL said:

We may read more on average than the median American, but lots of young people do enjoy reading and do read beyond the curriculum.  In fact, it is not unlikely that a "banned book" read by some kids would make a bigger impact than the same book assigned to the whole class.  Because even readers may pay less attention to books their teachers assign vs. their own reading choices.

Sure, I’m just very skeptical that pleasure reading is an effective national substitute for classroom instruction where history and civics are concerned.

Edited by Sneezyone
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Just now, Sneezyone said:

Sure, I’m just very skeptical that pleasure reading an effective substitute for classroom instruction where history and civics are concerned.

Not to mention that there is limited time, and if you are doing heavy academics, you're likely less likely to pick up a book for pleasure reading that is pretty heavy and thought provoking. 

 

The "read a banned book" campaigns are common in libraries, etc, and can be effective, but especially in K-12 schools can also have the effect of parents going to the school and requesting that such books be a) restricted such that they can only be checked out to students with parent permission b)removed from open stacks such that they will not be found by a student, but only available on request, or c)removed entirely. And, since funds are finite, few librarians are going to put their money into purchasing books that parents are likely to challenge. Public libraries usually have fewer restrictions, but again, funds are limited. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Sure, I’m just very skeptical that pleasure reading is an effective national substitute for classroom instruction where history and civics are concerned.

Personally I think it's probably about 50/50.  My high school history teacher's only goal was to get through the material he was given.  There was absolutely no discussion about anything.  He read summaries of the text off an overhead projector.  My civics teacher taught us about voting and tax returns and writing a check.  Actual discussion about serious issues occurred in the jr/sr optional courses.  I would also note that teachers in a lot of districts are conservative, so even if they did go outside the bare basics, it might not be in the direction you would prefer.

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re national dark money groups parachuting into small towns to whip up "CRT" panics so as to take control of school boards

30 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Forgive me if this link has already been shared here. 

This article talks about an advocacy group called No Left Turn in Education which appears to be involved in all of the examples cited in this thread. 

Critical race theory battle invades school boards - with the help from conservative groups

IIRC, the parents who testified at the school board hearing were in Loudon County, Virginia. 

In wealthy Loudoun County, Virginia, parents face threats in battle over equity in schools

This Twitter threads provides some additional details. 

 

 

Yeah, not surprised. That was what it looked like what Rufo and Tucker were laying the outraged "grass roots" groundwork for. 

For those who prefer linear articles (inc video clip) > twitter threads,

https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/conservative-dark-money-groups-disrupt-critical-race-theory-debate-114823237818

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The younger people I know aren't necessarily less enthusiastic about democracy.  What I see is more cynicism about how democratic a nation we really are.   And a lot of that cynicism seems to stem from a real dislike and distrust of capitalism.  THAT is definitely where I see a lot of disdain.  

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CRT might not be as big an issue as people thought. Apparently the Southern Baptists voted for a resolution that was accused of being related to CRT and they did not elect the anti-CRT candidate as their president. 

I'm not Southern Baptist so I might be misinterpreting what this means though. 

 

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1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Agreed! Come to my neck of the woods too. Michigan has a ton of this crap everywhere and very dangerous militia to back it up.

Sadly, add my state to the list. 
https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2020/11/oregon-among-5-states-at-high-risk-for-militia-activity-around-the-elections.html

And also potentially significant silent supporters.

https://www.oregoncapitalinsider.com/news/white-extremist-views-rising-in-oregon-despite-majority-opposition-poll-finds/article_4a0c2f04-ca19-11eb-9d59-e33b1bdfc7f2.html

 

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3 hours ago, MercyA said:

But not everyone has the *same* shot.

For example, America prioritized the immigration of highly educated people from Asia. Of course when you have engineers and doctors coming in, that's going to give them (and their future families) a huge advantage. And while Asians do and have faced prejudice, I'm not aware of data suggesting they are treated differently from whites in our court systems, for example.

ETA: Sorry, I know I'm way behind in this thread!

Immigration from Asia was historically quite restricted.  The very first immigration law to restrict immigration by nationality was specifically to exclude Chinese immigrants.  It almost entirely banned Chinese immigration from 1882 forwards. For quite sometime, we would allow some Chinese workers tacitly but we wouldn't allow them to bring their families.  Further, we specifically precluded first Chinese immigrants from becoming naturalized citizens and then Asians as a whole.  There was a lot of tension Asian immigration in the western United States - because mine owners and railroad barons wanted ever cheaper labor.  When Chinese immigration was banned, more Japanese and Indian laborers arrived. There were lynchings of Asian immigrants in the 19th century.  Wyoming, Colorado, California and Washington State had organized groups pressing to limit employment for Asians.  There were race riots targeting Asians in San Francisco and Washington State.  Around WW I, the exclusion act was expanded and basically applied to all of Asia.  Some states and territories, just as some tried to ban black people, tried to ban Asians.  Chinatowns and International Districts exist in part because Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other Asians were just precluded from operating businesses in other parts of town.  The SCOTUS repeatedly upheld that they weren't eligible for citizenship. I could write a whole lot more but I'll cut it off here, lol.  

I have observed a subtle but real erasure of the experiences faced by Asian Americans.  10% of Asian Americans live in poverty.  While median household income in higher, in some cases that isn't a function of high wage jobs but extended family living and more wage earners per household.  A few of my clients serve the AAPI community in the Seattle area.  The challenges that Asian Americans have faced are seriously downplayed.  Of course not everyone has the same shot, not denying that but I would as gently as possible push back on the idea that Asians in the US are all educationally and economically advantaged or are advantaged in such a way that erases the racism and history of discrimination they have faced.  

Edited by LucyStoner
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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Forgive me if this link has already been shared here. 

This article talks about an advocacy group called No Left Turn in Education which appears to be involved in all of the examples cited in this thread. 

Critical race theory battle invades school boards - with the help from conservative groups

 

 

 

The NBC story gives a good rundown of how this isn't what it might appear to be to those outside the US (as did the Courant link shared yesterday). That article was also the first place I saw some additional details added about William Clark, the boy whose diploma was held up because of objections to the Social Change class. I figured the school wasn't commenting due to student privacy, but the article shares that his low grade was due to not completing assignments, not due to refusal to disclose personal characteristics to the class, which it says was not required. I actually wasn't one of the ones suggesting that the case wasn't what it seemed (I thought it was equally likely that this particular school was just doing a lousy job with application), but now it does appear that could be the case.

20 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I have observed a subtle but real erasure of the experiences faced by Asian Americans.  10% of Asian Americans live in poverty.  While median household income in higher, in some cases that isn't a function of high wage jobs but extended family living and more wage earners per household.  A few of my clients serve the AAPI community in the Seattle area.  The challenges that Asian Americans have faced are seriously downplayed.  Of course not everyone has the same shot, not denying that but I would as gently as possible push back on the idea that Asians in the US are all educationally and economically advantaged or are advantaged in such a way that erases the racism and history of discrimination they have faced.  

I agree Asians in the US are certainly not all educationally or economically advantaged, and there is a long history of serious racism and discrimination. I don't agree with lumping them in with other groups with high level of economic disadvantages, though, The levels of poverty among Asians is equivalent to that of whites in the US. The whites have not faced the same racism, but overall, levels of achievement are not lower. Racism against Asians affects my family, so I'm trying to make clear I'm not erasing that, but the challenges affect Asians differently than some other racial groups. 

 

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48 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 Of course not everyone has the same shot, not denying that but I would as gently as possible push back on the idea that Asians in the US are all educationally and economically advantaged or are advantaged in such a way that erases the racism and history of discrimination they have faced.  

Oh, absolutely, and I didn't mean to imply that at all. I was actually--clumsily--trying to challenge the idea that since some minorities have been (or are perceived to be) tremendously successful, they all should be and it's their fault if they aren't. 

I should have gone further with my post. You are right that Asians have faced tremendous challenges and prejudice. Right now refugees in particular have a very hard time and many do live in poverty. The playing field isn't equal for them either.

What I was trying to say is that not everyone can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because, hey, it's America. 

Thanks for responding and adding needed context!

Edited by MercyA
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4 hours ago, MercyA said:

 

What I was trying to say is that not everyone can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because, hey, it's America. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

The global social mobility index is also interesting.  Here's another discussion -

https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-intergenerational-income-mobility-is-better-than-us-2020-2

Edited by Laura Corin
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Now it comes out that Faux "News" has mentioned (and falsified its characterizations of) critical race theory 1,300 times in the past 3.5 months.

And has done so with the explicit aim of conferring political advantage on people who'd prefer to whitewash American history and cover up systemic racism.

Why is none of this surprising?

It is a pure propaganda tactic to deliberately misinform a low-information segment of American society that they have been grooming for decades.

What a shame.

Bill

 

 

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https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001?doi=1

Among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty.

No sig increase in sympathy towards Black people struggling with poverty as a pay-off either. 

(Conservative participants don't change attitude at all in any direction).

For anyone on the left with an interest in class, it's worth pondering if privilege discourse is helping the poor at all. 

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3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-22926-001?doi=1

Among social liberals, learning about White privilege reduces sympathy, increases blame, and decreases external attributions for White people struggling with poverty.

No sig increase in sympathy towards Black people struggling with poverty as a pay-off either. 

(Conservative participants don't change attitude at all in any direction).

For anyone on the left with an interest in class, it's worth pondering if privilege discourse is helping the poor at all. 

I always wind up feeling that these highly dogmatic approaches to difficult issues are putting the cart before the horse. It's like with my personal preoccupation, math education -- they are teaching the outcomes of some deep mental models BEFORE the mental models and it does no good. 

The real point of all these things is the ability to see things from other people's perspectives (including people with a VASTLY different cultural experience) and to be able to be humble and thoughtful about the ways that you did not make your own luck. But if you skip the "golden rule" step and just jump to dogma about which group is more wronged, you get total nonsense. 

I've been in Facebook groups that were explicitly organized via a hierarchy about who was the biggest victim. People abused that hierarchy like people have abused ALL hierarchies (birth, class, education, race) since time immemorial. And people were JUST as intolerant of questioning as anyone else who subscribes to an unshakeable view about right and wrong. 

We don't want that. We oughtn't want that. 

And with all that being said, if you think about white privilege AFTER you've done some actual deep thinking about what different people's experiences look like, you'll see there's something there. But that doesn't mean it's a safe thing or good idea to present it first.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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I think that's a good point. L took the sociology class several semesters into taking DE, and therefore several semesters after meeting other students. I know it was very eye opening to find out that a study group partner had no computer at home, making submitting assignments difficult, that another couldn't come to class when the public schools were closed due to a lack of child care, and just plain how many students commented on how they wished they could just worry about school, and to take advantage of the chance to learn while still living at home. 

 

I hadn't thought about that experience when I sent my gifted kid to the local community college in a Majority-Minority city. I just needed a classroom that would give my kid reasonable academics in a subject or two and other people to do them with, and nothing else was accessible or working. 

 

But it ended up being a lesson that all of the discussions at home, wide reading of history, and participating in service projects had not been able to get to sink in-that different people have extremely different life experiences, completely out of their control, and that much of your life is out of your control, too. 

 

By the time L took the class on race, class and gender, there had been plenty of opportunity to internalize that lesson, so the class fell on fertile ground. So did classes in more contemporary World history, Black history, Indigenous history, lessons from African American Literature, APUG, and the 2020 presidential election cycle. 

 

Which might be a good argument for saving CRT for after students have more life experience. I'm just not sure what would be effective at giving that life experience. And it seems likely that the bans, as written, would actually make it more difficult for students to gain understanding  because it would tend to shut down discussions that might help provide it. 

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2 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

And it seems likely that the bans, as written, would actually make it more difficult for students to gain understanding  because it would tend to shut down discussions that might help provide it. 

I mean, the bans are pure politics. They are propaganda and pandering. They aren’t an honest response to difficult issues.

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Bottom line for me is multicultural education has been around for a long time in all grades as a part of social studies and geography. I taught it in my homeschool. Social studies and history have always been contentious. I remember an article about teachers not wanting to bring up the Vietnam war.

I really don't want teachers in all subjects grabbing whatever Teachers Pay Teachers lesson plans they think might work and clumsily approaching the topics of racism and intersectionality. TPT can be great for some purposes, but it's not training and the quality varies wildly. So when people say the outliers are clunky applications, I'm not surprised and think there's more opportunity for clunky than skillful. 

If I search every topic I can think of relating to this on TPT here's how many lessons I can find for all grades. 

Racism: 3,300 lessons

Systemic racism: 300 lessons

Black Lives Matter: 5,700 lessons

Social Justice: almost 10,000

Identity with social studies filter to eliminate math: 19,000

Intersectionality: 67 lessons

Culture: 54,000

Anti-bias: 101

Anti-racism: 900

Some might assume that because I listed these topics, it must mean I think they are all bad. I'll just stop you right there and say nope. 

 

So I'll post this again. 

Five Signs Your Reform Has Become Another Education Fad

1. The Vendor Onslaught:

2. Fawning Media:

3. “Early Adopter” Educators Clamber Aboard:

4. Ubiquity: 

5. Welcome to Late Night:

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52 minutes ago, Plum said:

Bottom line for me is multicultural education has been around for a long time in all grades as a part of social studies and geography. I taught it in my homeschool. Social studies and history have always been contentious. I remember an article about teachers not wanting to bring up the Vietnam war.

I really don't want teachers in all subjects grabbing whatever Teachers Pay Teachers lesson plans they think might work and clumsily approaching the topics of racism and intersectionality. TPT can be great for some purposes, but it's not training and the quality varies wildly. So when people say the outliers are clunky applications, I'm not surprised and think there's more opportunity for clunky than skillful. 

If I search every topic I can think of relating to this on TPT here's how many lessons I can find for all grades. 

Racism: 3,300 lessons

Systemic racism: 300 lessons

Black Lives Matter: 5,700 lessons

Social Justice: almost 10,000

Identity with social studies filter to eliminate math: 19,000

Intersectionality: 67 lessons

Culture: 54,000

Anti-bias: 101

Anti-racism: 900

Some might assume that because I listed these topics, it must mean I think they are all bad. I'll just stop you right there and say nope. 

 

So I'll post this again. 

Five Signs Your Reform Has Become Another Education Fad

1. The Vendor Onslaught:

2. Fawning Media:

3. “Early Adopter” Educators Clamber Aboard:

4. Ubiquity: 

5. Welcome to Late Night:

Enough with the false equivalency. If I go to TPT right now and search for English and math lessons, what numbers will I find? The vast, vast majority of content is not of this nature. There is a clear effort, with which you seem to identify, to blow the extent of this challenge entirely out of proportion in order to justify clearly LESS good policies and laws. That’s not OK.

Just for kicks…

English over 2.8 million

Math over 1.7 million 

Science over 770k

Spanish over 290k

If this is the metric by which we’re judging how teachers spend their time and what their resource needs are…yeah…it’s not ANYTHING like the picture folks are trying to paint.


 

Edited by Sneezyone
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5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Enough with the false equivalency. If I go to TPT right now and search for English and math lessons, what numbers will I find? The vast, vast majority of content is not of this nature. There is a clear effort, with which you seem to identify, to blow the extent of this challenge entirely out of proportion in order to justify clearly LESS good policies and laws. That’s not OK.
 

Yes, this.

 

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1 hour ago, Plum said:

Bottom line for me is multicultural education has been around for a long time in all grades as a part of social studies and geography. I taught it in my homeschool. Social studies and history have always been contentious. I remember an article about teachers not wanting to bring up the Vietnam war.

I really don't want teachers in all subjects grabbing whatever Teachers Pay Teachers lesson plans they think might work and clumsily approaching the topics of racism and intersectionality. TPT can be great for some purposes, but it's not training and the quality varies wildly. So when people say the outliers are clunky applications, I'm not surprised and think there's more opportunity for clunky than skillful. 

If I search every topic I can think of relating to this on TPT here's how many lessons I can find for all grades. 

Racism: 3,300 lessons

Systemic racism: 300 lessons

Black Lives Matter: 5,700 lessons

Social Justice: almost 10,000

Identity with social studies filter to eliminate math: 19,000

Intersectionality: 67 lessons

Culture: 54,000

Anti-bias: 101

Anti-racism: 900

Some might assume that because I listed these topics, it must mean I think they are all bad. I'll just stop you right there and say nope. 

 

So I'll post this again. 

Five Signs Your Reform Has Become Another Education Fad

1. The Vendor Onslaught:

2. Fawning Media:

3. “Early Adopter” Educators Clamber Aboard:

4. Ubiquity: 

5. Welcome to Late Night:

I don’t understand the relevance of this. Is there anyone here suggesting that teachers head to TPT to learn how to teach this stuff? Is anyone saying schools are all going to do a good job? The point is, to ignore racial issues and not teach them is to have chosen a particular lens to teach through, and not a good one. There are actual bans that would prevent talking about all kinds of things regarding race that have been passed or are in process. Lots of them. This isn’t even about CRT, which is just a smoke screen for all things race that people don’t want brought up in schools. By and large, schools are not teaching CRT at the K-12 level. I think most people here are not specifically arguing for CRT programs, but are objecting to everything else being eliminated under the cover of CRT objections. 

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It seems like handwringing to claim that diversity education (or whatever we're calling it) has to come after children understand more about the world. 

Okay yeah...of course that would be ideal. 

But it isn't happening and how can it happen? Where is it supposed to happen? Would the public schools be a good place for children to learn about the experiences of other children? Yes, but our public schools have been under attack for years. And of course our public schools never lived up to their ideals either. 

I can't help but notice that the people concern trolling about diversity education are the same people who concern troll about the public schools. Their concern trolling about public schools lends credence to efforts to undermine the public schools by underfunding them and diverting our tax dollars away from our public schools. 

So what are we supposed to do? 

I thought this was a good article. It's not about CRT but instead addresses what the author calls the "game of the name." I don't know who's right about these language issues (what terms to use, etc) but he makes a good point about how these discussions follow a script. 

Quote

The frustrating part is that the moral panic formula doesn’t change. I’m not old enough to remember the peaks of the weaponizing “socialism,” but we’re still paying for it with a wildly dysfunctional healthcare system and radicalizing amounts of wealth inequality. I’m old enough to remember when conservatives weaponized “liberal,” before everyone started tripping over themselves to be called the true defenders of a very small “l” liberalism. What reason do we have to think, if we just let Rufo and others weaponize “CRT,” that the fallout won’t be stagnation on key racial issues?

Confronting the Moral Panic Over Critical Race Theory

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1 minute ago, Plum said:

It’s what happens when you have a loose framework, haphazard application. That’s all. 

What would you suggest as a good strategy for teaching kids about racially charged history and how race continues to exert effects today? Do you support the recent bans or are you against those? I’ve been in agreement with you throughout the thread about some of the problematic applications, but I don’t think bans are the answer. To ignore these issues is to take a stand. 

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