Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory

[Melissa Louise]

11 hours ago, Harpymom said:

I think the answer is that there is a silent "white" in front of "kids" in your sentence.  BIPOC kids see color all the time, and are taught from a young age how to navigate the world to try to stay safe.  White kids don't have to see color to be safe from racially-based violence.   

Separating is not my preferred strategy.  Presenting concrete, workable ways out of the current (400 + years) situation should be the goal while helping all kids see where they are within the system only as a means to ending it.  Leaving kids with just the present facts is to leave them in despair. 

Kids (K-8) can do nothing to end the system. 

And what does 'end the system' mean? In specific, material terms?

 

[KungFuPanda]

 

16 hours ago, Plum said:

I also think it’s important that we are open-minded and widely read. The Military Academy is a University. (Not K-12) He mentions he reads Mao and Marx, though it’s not clear if it is on his own time or as required reading. I think it’s important for military personnel to understand our history, our own government and politic as well as others so they fully understand what they are fighting for. However, I should point out again that military university is not K-12. Once you are old enough to be attending a military university, you are old enough to make up your own mind. Perhaps you’ve even had some life experiences so you can read Ibram X Kendi with context. As an adult, you can read Marx and Mao with background information that kids just don’t have.

 

I’m still struggling to see why it’s so important to force kids to see color and separate themselves out by power and privilege. My best friend in 2nd grade was black. I didn’t care what color she was. She liked Barbie and had a townhouse. I played at her house all the time. We lived in similar houses in the same neighborhood. I didn’t see her as different or better or worse. That thought never entered my mind. I don’t see how this new anti-bias antiracist training is better than what we had. 

Whatever happened to the ideal of Star Trek where race, sex, difference didn’t matter? Isn’t that the ideal? A future where we can all see past the outside and appreciate what’s inside.

 

5th grade social studies class - it sound like they spent their whole year on this  

 

It would be very interesting if your friend could participate in this discussion.  It's not remotely unusual that YOU saw things a being colorless and equal.  It's not unusual that YOU were made to feel comfortable.  The whole problem is getting people who are used to comfort to tolerate even a moment of discomfort.  There are whole communities that care more about their family's comfort than they do about injustices that their neighbors may be experiencing.  The sad thing is that nobody is asking anyone to experience these injustices for themselves.  They just want to have the conversation so that everyone understands that racism is real and affecting people's lives today.  A conversation is too much to ask.  Mild discomfort is too much to ask.  

 

4 hours ago, SKL said:

About young kids seeing color, the first time it ever came up with my kids was when an AA girl in their preschool told them I couldn't be their mom because I was white.

I'm not sure what to think about that, but it's not for me to say what other people teach their kids at home.

The argument that black kids are more likely to face violence from whites vs the opposite is just not true.  It may be what they believe, but the numbers don't support this.  By that logic, should white people teach their kids to see color because someday a POC might harm them?  I would never do that.  You can say that's my "privilege" if you want to.

Most people face violence from people they know who are close to them.  Violence from strangers isn't the most pressing threat.  This isn't about crime statistics sorted by race.  This is about violence and discrimination from police, school systems, financial institutions, medical facilities, and government entities that should be fair to everyone.  I'm not surprised that as more and more people finally catch on to the statistically undeniable unfairness of it all that there is a strong backlash from those benefiting from this unfairness.  Why else would entire communities want to ban even the discussion of race in schools?  It's just weird and dark and it feels like moving backwards.

[pinball]

16 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

It would be very interesting if your friend could participate in this discussion.  It's not remotely unusual that YOU saw things a being colorless and equal.  It's not unusual that YOU were made to feel comfortable.  The whole problem is getting people who are used to comfort to tolerate even a moment of discomfort.  There are whole communities that care more about their family's comfort than they do about injustices that their neighbors may be experiencing.  The sad thing is that nobody is asking anyone to experience these injustices for themselves.  They just want to have the conversation so that everyone understands that racism is real and affecting people's lives today.  A conversation is too much to ask.  Mild discomfort is too much to ask.  

 

Most people face violence from people they know who are close to them.  Violence from strangers isn't the most pressing threat.  This isn't about crime statistics sorted by race.  This is about violence and discrimination from police, school systems, financial institutions, medical facilities, and government entities that should be fair to everyone.  I'm not surprised that as more and more people finally catch on to the statistically undeniable unfairness of it all that there is a strong backlash from those benefiting from this unfairness.  Why else would entire communities want to ban even the discussion of race in schools?  It's just weird and dark and it feels like moving backwards.

That’s not my reading of the situation.

race can and will be discussed, but not through the lens of CRT.

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, SKL said:

About young kids seeing color, the first time it ever came up with my kids was when an AA girl in their preschool told them I couldn't be their mom because I was white.

I'm not sure what to think about that, but it's not for me to say what other people teach their kids at home.

The argument that black kids are more likely to face violence from whites vs the opposite is just not true.  It may be what they believe, but the numbers don't support this.  By that logic, should white people teach their kids to see color because someday a POC might harm them?  I would never do that.  You can say that's my "privilege" if you want to.

That probably comes from the same place as the elementary students who told my child they couldn’t possibly be adopted because they are brown like DH and I.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Eos]

31 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Kids (K-8) can do nothing to end the system. 

I agree, I'm talking about educators, school admins, curriculum directors, gatekeepers.

 

32 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

And what does 'end the system' mean? In specific, material terms?

It took us 400 years to get here, it will take a while to get out.  An equitable society will need to encompass both ending personal bigotry and structural, generational oppression.  Reparations, a re-working of the economy away from capitalism, ending for-profit health care, replacing the current prison system are specifics.

[Sneezyone]

Does anyone remember Free Willy, the movie, and the big earth day push in the 80s? I remember my sister coming home, absolutely RABID, about the need to cut the plastic around soda cans and reduce plastic bag use. Funny how exposure to those things sticks with you sometimes. We still reuse plastic bags and cut the plastic on plastic bottle six packs, etc. As a big sister, I thought she was nuts. You can’t fix a systemic problem that you can’t or won’t see and sometimes the lessons of youth really DO make a difference in how we approach problems as adults.

ETA: I think the people advancing these CRT bans know that exposing kids to all kinds of unpleasantries DOES make a difference in how the kids see and approach problems later. They know that giving kids something tangible to do, like writing letters and lobbying legislatures also makes a difference. Thus, the proponents of these laws hope to break the chain between youth awareness and adult activism.

Edited June 24, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

7 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Well, birthing your own offspring saves thousands of dollars and a lot of heartache so, yeah, that’s a privilege. The thing about privilege is that it’s easy to see others’ and sometimes very hard to see our own.

Being able to give birth is a privilege? Now I guess one can have a very loose definition of the word,  but in my world privilege implies “right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.” 

so in my mind, there is a flip side to privilege - discrimination. 
I would say if my kid can gain advantage because of his status as a child of a famous person, or if he can buy a house because the seller picks him on the basis of his race, or he gains any advantage because he belongs to a certain racial and/or ethnic class, that’s privilege. The flip side being my privilege is a discrimination to another human. 
 

If we all hold such different understanding of the word that is at the heart of this debate, how can we even debate? 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Harpymom said:

I agree, I'm talking about educators, school admins, curriculum directors, gatekeepers.

 

It took us 400 years to get here, it will take a while to get out.  An equitable society will need to encompass both ending personal bigotry and structural, generational oppression.  Reparations, a re-working of the economy away from capitalism, ending for-profit health care, replacing the current prison system are specifics.

So, the idea is that a general infusing of the curriculum with racial justice studies will lead to...a generation both in favour of the above and with the power to enact the above? 

Because schools themselves, as institutions, cannot enact these outcomes. 

So, if the idea is to influence students in favour of particular political and ideological policies and positions, I can see why people are objecting, regardless of whether they are views I do or don't support. 

I think K-8 education is about skills, not overthrowing capitalism ( and I'm a social democrat). 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Being able to give birth is a privilege? Now I guess one can have a very loose definition of the word,  but in my world privilege implies “right held as a prerogative of status or rank, and exercised to the exclusion or detriment of others.” 

so in my mind, there is a flip side to privilege - discrimination. 
I would say if my kid can gain advantage because of his status as a child of a famous person, or if he can buy a house because the seller picks him on the basis of his race, or he gains any advantage because he belongs to a certain racial and/or ethnic class, that’s privilege. The flip side being my privilege is a discrimination to another human. 
 

If we all hold such different understanding of the word that is at the heart of this debate, how can we even debate? 

Your definition includes the word exclusion. Does your definition of that differ from mine? Exclusion happens both intentionally and unintentionally. Being fertile is a status. It’s exercise to the exclusion of others is a privilege. Even if we don’t agree on that, yes, it could be seen as discriminatory that adults who have suboptimal fertility do not receive medical coverage to restore or preserve their reproductive health where pregnancy is fully covered for all. Privilege and discrimination aren’t opposites.

 

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

So, the idea is that a general infusing of the curriculum with racial justice studies will lead to...a generation both in favour of the above and with the power to enact the above? 

Because schools themselves, as institutions, cannot enact these outcomes. 

So, if the idea is to influence students in favour of particular political and ideological policies and positions, I can see why people are objecting, regardless of whether they are views I do or don't support. 

I think K-8 education is about skills, not overthrowing capitalism ( and I'm a social democrat). 

No, the idea is to TELL THE TRUTH about the origins of our current state. That truth necessitates some evaluation of the impact, past and present, of racism. That understanding is likely to lead more individuals to support changes in how and why we do the things we do and have the laws we have. It’s not a guarantee. It’s just a consequence of having more/better information about our shared story. That’s not overthrow either. It’s growth. Evolution.

ETA: CRT, as currently defined on the US right, is any assertion that current outcomes/conditions are the result of racist intentions or acts from the past. CRT includes any assertion that wealth, race, or other immutable characteristic confers unearned benefits. CRT is anything even tangentially related to history that suggests America is (not just was) flawed and that living people have been harmed by those flaws. The ‘patriotism’ instructional mandates (literally, there are forced speech laws that require teachers to promote ‘patriotism’ and reveal the ‘evils’ of other governing models) are an outgrowth. The irony is that the people mandating a simplistic, one-dimensional (always up!) ‘patriotic’ education could really benefit from understanding the much more nuanced and complicated patriotism of indigenous and other minority groups who have fought, died, and bled for this country without receiving the benefits, honors, and respect they were/are owed. THAT is true patriotism.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Your definition includes the word, exclusion. Does your definition of that differ from mine? Privilege and discrimination aren’t opposites.

 

No, the idea is to TELL THE TRUTH about the origins of our current state. That truth necessitates some evaluation of the impact past, and present, of racism. That understanding is likely to lead more individuals to support changes in how and why we do the things we do and have the laws we have. That’s not overthrow. It’s growth. Evolution.

To me they go hand in hand. So yes, we see this differently. 

This board had me watching videos on Kosher cooking earlier this week and now this privilege business 🙂 

Still on page 10 of this thread. 

[KungFuPanda]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

That’s not my reading of the situation.

race can and will be discussed, but not through the lens of CRT.

Isn't that a bit like saying you can teach kids about the Boston Tea Party but you can't mention the part about the Tea Act or say "Taxation Without Representation" because that makes it seem like the government is complicit and that's too inflammatory? 

[Sneezyone]

58 minutes ago, Plum said:

How can schools be the ones to approach this when they have repeatedly and demonstrably failed their minority students? The abysmal test scores, the school to prison pipeline, the difference in punishment, and the schools that are falling apart to start. If we are to see an end to this, shouldn't they start there? 

This video on Amanpour and Company interviewing Black activist parents about the 500% increase in homeschooling was a really good conversation about what is going on there. They discussed why POC are choosing to keep their kids home. They don't think schools are designed for their kids. Schools set them up to fail. They don't feel supported at all. They think their kids are targeted. Public education has devastated generations of their kids. They wanted to take the power over their children's education because they realized they have that power. These women are still activists. They have become education refugees because they believe the system has failed their kids. 

 

 

I'd like to introduce them to John Taylor Gatto if they haven't already read him. 

An entire year on anti-racist training at a school for minorities in Brooklyn seems excessive. Like you pointed out, they already live this. Their test scores are not that great. Criticism goes both ways though. Teachers don't like it when parents are overly involved just as much as they don't like absentee parents. This pandemic has forced parents to have some skin in the game. They have had to facilitate, advocate, educate their kids more than any parent group in decades. That's going to naturally change the dynamic. Parents want to be able to entrust their children to the schools and they are not feeling that right now. 

First off, you don’t know it was an entire year of explicit anti-racist teaching. As you said earlier ‘it sounds like’ …to YOU.  That’s your own speculation. Second of all, black parents are and have been homeschooling in increasing numbers to protect their kids from racist SYSTEMS that you object to students learning about or discussing in school. CRT bans in teacher education and training explicitly prohibit the consideration of disparate treatment and outcomes so teachers can remain ignorant of the ways in which they criminalize and pathologize differences.

What these parents are complaining about are paternalistic attitudes that presume violence, stupidity, and parental apathy. It’s the same paternalism you’re using to presume that these complaints mean black parents haven’t already had skin in the game and/or don’t value the CRT lens. Oh, contraire, they’re largely using CRT at home to inform and empower their students, to build them up with stories about black success and white efforts to thwart it, how the country is run as one big game built for others, what the rules are, and how they can play to win. All of that is in ADDITION to reading, writing, and arithmetic. This isn’t evidence of the drawbacks of CRT. It’s evidence of the way that lens fortifies students against the onslaught of daily life and the ongoing ignorance and blindness of a primarily white teacher corps that doesn’t understand the kids they teach or the families they come from.

The curriculum and study choices black homeschooling parents make are often focused on affirmation and support, encouragement, dignity, history (the parts that don’t show the US in the best light), and triumph over adversity. That focus is exactly what is being banned. Add in the forced ‘patriotism’ crap and there will be even more of an exodus.

And lest anyone think I’m saying this to be mean or just for shits and giggles…

https://www.google.com/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/black-americans-homeschool-for-different-reasons-than-whites-137554

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/06/21/the-rise-of-black-homeschooling/amp

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/385543/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/black-families-increasingly-choose-to-homeschool-kids

More ignorance on the part of teachers and administrators is sure to help. Yep. Surely.

Black parents homeschool to protect their kids from racism. To strengthen them before subjecting them to it, not to ignore it, but to confront it fully armed with facts. Using this increase to suggest that we should double down on the ignorance that got us to this point is really rich.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, Plum said:

How can schools be the ones to approach this when they have repeatedly and demonstrably failed their minority students? The abysmal test scores, the school to prison pipeline, the difference in punishment, and the schools that are falling apart to start. If we are to see an end to this, shouldn't they start there? 

Right. Honestly, I would think that getting these kids the education they deserve ought to be the surest way to promote true equality. 

(And lest anyone is confused, I emphatically disagree with the bans. But I'm not sure requiring school time on these subjects is worthwhile, either.) 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. Honestly, I would think that getting these kids the education they deserve ought to be the surest way to promote true equality. 

(And lest anyone is confused, I emphatically disagree with the bans. But I'm not sure requiring school time on these subjects is worthwhile, either.) 

You’re not sure whether class time should include it but you’re not willing to listen to or consider the preferences of the parents whose children are most affected by racism? They’re literally saying, in each of the articles linked, that they want and do MORE with history and racial matters, not less. Again, paternalism. They must not know what works. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

59 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm a white person so I know the things white people say to each other when we don't think anyone else is listening. 

I actually totally don’t know what you’re referring to. In your experience, do most white people say racist things when they think no one is listening?

[Shoeless]

35 minutes ago, KSera said:

I actually totally don’t know what you’re referring to. In your experience, do most white people say racist things when they think no one is listening?

I don't know if most white people do it, but I've definitely been in conversations where white people have said racist things with a wink or a smirk.  Kinda like "You know how it is, with those people, *wink*wink*".  

More subtle racism has been where they keep mentioning the race of the other person when it has utterly nothing to do with the conversation.  It's a way of feeling-out how the other white person feels about race without being direct and outing yourself as a blatant racist. 

There is a local pastor's wife that does this when she first gets to know people.   She'd tell stories of when her kid was in school, and how the kid was treated by the "Mexican teacher", or how they met this really nice "Black lady" at the farmer's market.  If it happened once, you might brush it off as being oddly detailed in with descriptions. But it happened over and over, to a degree that it felt like she was trying to indirectly make a point.  Because she was.  😠

Edited June 25, 2021 by MissLemon

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

More subtle racism has been where they keep mentioning the race of the other person when it has utterly nothing to do with the conversation.  It's a way of feeling-out how the other white person feels about race without being direct and outing yourself as a blatant racist. 

Definitely have heard people do this. And I’ve heard other similar things where someone says something really awkward that comes across as subtly racist. I guess I just didn’t have an impression that most white people do this. I expect there are probably areas where it’s more or less common. I was surprised to hear OS phrase it like she and every other white person does that when no one is listening. 

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Definitely have heard people do this. And I’ve heard other similar things where someone says something really awkward that comes across as subtly racist. I guess I just didn’t have an impression that most white people do this. I expect there are probably areas where it’s more or less common. I was surprised to hear OS phrase it like she and every other white person does that when no one is listening. 

I've seen it happen enough that I'm pretty sure it happens with a majority of white people.  Maybe not all white people I know, but definitely more than 50%.  

[Melissa Louise]

If you're a white person and you're hearing other white people in your circle being racist on the regular, can I suggest changing your social circle? 

It's not normal behaviour, and hasn't been for a long time. 

Proclaiming one's intrinsic racism just sounds to me like religious language - we're all sinners etc. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

@Plum

You might like this article. 

https://www.noemamag.com/how-to-be-an-anti-anti-racist/

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

@Plum

You might like this article. 

https://www.noemamag.com/how-to-be-an-anti-anti-racist/

You’re not even the least bit troubled by the fact that discussions about systemic inequity have literally been banned in some of our largest states, are you? It doesn’t get more illiberal than that. UP is DOWN. LEFT is RIGHT and nothing is true. SMH. Arguing with a straw man is so much easier than arguing unpleasant facts. https://www.salon.com/2021/06/23/desantis-signs-bill-requiring-florida-students-professors-to-register-political-views-with-state/

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[HeartString]

5 hours ago, KSera said:

I actually totally don’t know what you’re referring to. In your experience, do most white people say racist things when they think no one is listening?

I live in the south.  Yes, yes they do.
 

  ETA: 

Especially the ones who swear they aren’t racist because they are friends with one black person. But they don’t want too many black kids in their schools, their neighborhoods, their churches.  They start talking about moving when the grocery store starts having too many.  
 

It’s not a”change your social circle” issue either because it’s prevalent in all of the social circles.  I don’t hear it as much now that I’ve”come out” as a *gasp* liberal. They save it for when they think everyone around agrees with them.
 

 What someone said up thread about the subtly is dead on.  It’s usually subtle, able to deny that they meant “that”.  They didn’t mean that they want to move because 2 black families have moved in on the street, only that the character of the neighborhood had changed and they’re worried about property values. 
 

Im honestly surprised white people are saying they don’t hear this.  

Edited June 25, 2021 by HeartString

[Sneezyone]

Is anyone else getting, ‘if you just complied with the hegemonic agenda, we wouldn’t have to ban you so hard’ vibes? No? Just me? Hmph.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Plum said:

Coming off of George W Bush? Yes he was! What I wouldn’t give for an articulate president that can string together several coherent sentences in a row. 

I have been. I’ve posted about the perspectives of a few communities right here in this thread. 

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt there. Homeschooling is not for everyone, just as online school isn’t for everyone nor is public school for everyone. We need alternatives. A lot more people could homeschool and I mean homeschool really well than think they can. They haven’t had enough of a reason to do so. 

Surprisingly, the city just north of me opened up a pandemic virtual microschool and is planning on keeping it open because they saw so much improvement through the pandemic. The city doesn’t want to run its own charter school, but they cannot deny the results. These were all kids that had extremely low test scores. The key was small classes of 20 kids max, personalized online school with support from a teacher. I like what works. 
 

How is this different from the daily worries among conservative professors and other university staff that they may be targeted, held back in their careers or even fired for their beliefs? Conservative professors have been forced to stay quiet or get cancelled. Or conservative students that get cancelled/ lose their student body position because of their politics? How is this different than states requiring private business to have a determined level of diversity on their boards or what % more the CEO can make than its employees or be fined? Why in the world has it become necessary to create a political diversity policy in universities when the country is split 50/50? 

 

The difference is the force of law, backed by the threat of government sanctions. One is a perceived threat, individual in nature, the other has been realized and is government sanctioned. I fear armed people of all kinds. I am especially fearful of armed LEOs who carry the force of law. Their power to hurt me is exponentially greater and there are fewer opportunities for redress.
 

It’s especially chilling when the state has a designated HBCU that was founded when black students could not attend its other universities. The student and academic staff there is, by choice and self-selection, unlikely to meet as yet undefined diversity tests. What happened to Nikole Hannah Jones is TAME compared to what Republicans could do to the top-rated public HBCU in the nation. Their hostility is out, open, and obvious. They are using the power of the state to require these institutions to allow white supremacists to incite violence on campus. It’s dangerous.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

I live in the south.  Yes, yes they do.
 

  ETA: 

Especially the ones who swear they aren’t racist because they are friends with one black person. But they don’t want too many black kids in their schools, their neighborhoods, their churches.  They start talking about moving when the grocery store starts having too many.  
 

It’s not a”change your social circle” issue either because it’s prevalent in all of the social circles.  I don’t hear it as much now that I’ve”come out” as a *gasp* liberal. They save it for when they think everyone around agrees with them.
 

 What someone said up thread about the subtly is dead on.  It’s usually subtle, able to deny that they meant “that”.  They didn’t mean that they want to move because 2 black families have moved in on the street, only that the character of the neighborhood had changed and they’re worried about property values. 
 

Im honestly surprised white people are saying they don’t hear this.  

They aren't listening, most of them. And then some of them silently agree, but won't actually admit it. Some live in such segregated neighborhoods that they never really have to listen to it because no one "needs" to say it. Everyone is white in their land unless they go to the mall in the city or something. Whole swaths of rural America are very, very, very white if not exclusively white. 

People are often so used to it, they don't recognize it even if they hear it.

[Caroline]

9 hours ago, Plum said:

I really don’t want to have to watch the whole video again but I remember this course took the place of social studies and she mentions doing the work all year. 

What the teacher said was that she used inquiry based learning in social studies all year. This was an example of how she used inquiry based learning to discuss anti racism and was done several months into the school year. It was actually an interesting way to get into the Colonial period for a diverse student population. So no, anti racism didn’t take the place of social studies. 

[Sneezyone]

15 minutes ago, Plum said:

Perceived threat? It’s CA law. 

The FL bill might just allow for more freedom of expression and honest discussion. College should be a place to explore and challenge different ideas, not suppress it. 

Are you assuming that having at least one or more URMs is going to lead to viewpoint diversity on a board of directors? I think the law’s writers are. I don’t. It’ll probably make for more colorful photos, that’s about it, but it’s not forcing anyone to disclose their political beliefs at risk of penalty. I, personally, prefer more of a carrot approach to encouraging diversity.

College students self-select for all kinds of reasons—interests, climate, race/ethnicity, whatever. You can’t mandate students to think like you or to spread themselves into evenly divided tribes of competing thought. The Florida law’s proponents explicitly state that their goal is to advance white Christian ideals. One of the bills chief lobbyists said:

“I think that those of us who have diverse thinking and look at both sides of the issue, see that the way the cards are stacked in the education system, is toward the left and toward the liberal ideology and also secularism — and those were not the values that our country was founded on,” Bishop said. “And those are the values that we need to get our country back to.”

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article250470626.html#storylink=cpy

State Rep. Rodrigues is also on record saying this legislation will prohibit universities from prohibiting or restricting extremist groups from gathering on state campuses, regardless of the security threat. That’s not about free speech in classrooms. It’s an attempt to make sure black students can be intimidated and threatened anytime the Proud Boys get a hankering to gather.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Paige]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

 

How is this different from the daily worries among conservative professors and other university staff that they may be targeted, held back in their careers or even fired for their beliefs? Conservative professors have been forced to stay quiet or get cancelled. Or conservative students that get cancelled/ lose their student body position because of their politics? How is this different than states requiring private business to have a determined level of diversity on their boards or what % more the CEO can make than its employees or be fined? Why in the world has it become necessary to create a political diversity policy in universities when the country is split 50/50? 

 

I'm pretty sure opinions are not a protected class. Race, ethnicity, religion, gender, disability- all protected classes with historic patterns of discrimination. Political opinions and beliefs are not. The only precedent I can see is with McCarthyism and the Red Scare and I don't think we want to go back to that.

I think the law will be a joke. If I was a student I would never, ever answer those questions regardless of my affiliation. I may say I was undecided, independent, or a member of the pajama party. I don't see people cooperating with this and don't see how any kind of enforcement would be constitutional. 

[Happy2BaMom]

15 minutes ago, Paige said:

 

I think the law will be a joke. If I was a student I would never, ever answer those questions regardless of my affiliation. I may say I was undecided, independent, or a member of the pajama party. I don't see people cooperating with this and don't see how any kind of enforcement would be constitutional. 

Agreed. Although, IMHO, the entire point of the law is to position the Governor well with the base, in preparation for a 2024 Presidential run, so whether the law is good or sh*t or effective or not is irrelevant.

It just needs to look like he's "done something" about the hysteria-du-jour.

[Sneezyone]

22 minutes ago, Paige said:

I'm pretty sure opinions are not a protected class. Race, ethnicity, religion, gender, disability- all protected classes with historic patterns of discrimination. Political opinions and beliefs are not. The only precedent I can see is with McCarthyism and the Red Scare and I don't think we want to go back to that.

I think the law will be a joke. If I was a student I would never, ever answer those questions regardless of my affiliation. I may say I was undecided, independent, or a member of the pajama party. I don't see people cooperating with this and don't see how any kind of enforcement would be constitutional. 

If I were a student, that would certainly be my approach. It’s still galling that in the name of ‘free speech’ they’re requiring campuses to allow extremists access to students’ homes, places of residence. You know who WON’T be affected by that? Students who live off campus in massive, privately owned Greek houses.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Caroline]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

Ah I must have been combining what she said and what  I read in the Best Practices of the program she used. 

Anti-bias, antiracist instruction  should happen year-round, not only during themed months or after news coverage of acts of racism and injustice. Embed an ABAR mindset into classroom culture and daily practices and routines.

This work is too critical to be an add-on or afterthought
https://www.fbmarketplace.org/empowering-educators

Which is still very different from replacing social studies with it. She’s using that lens. It’s being embedded. So when talking about Colonial America, she doesn’t just talk about the founding fathers and how wonderful they were. She also approaches it from the point of view of other people.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Plum said:

I’d prefer we not have that CA law nor that FL law but here we are. I’d like for free speech to be protected on and off campus. 

So would I, but free speech isn’t impacted by the CA law, freedom of assembly perhaps, but not speech. I don’t want any tiki-torch bearing thugs threatening my child where they live but maybe that’s just me too.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

You’re not sure whether class time should include it but you’re not willing to listen to or consider the preferences of the parents whose children are most affected by racism? They’re literally saying, in each of the articles linked, that they want and do MORE with history and racial matters, not less. Again, paternalism. They must not know what works. 

Sure I'm willing to listen. But whom do we listen to? People are quite heterogeneous. And I think there's a difference between "we'd like to spend social science time learning this and not learning a whitewashed version of history" and "we'd like to spend time on this that will crowd out other essential instruction." 

Anyway, I'm sure whether the parents are happy about it will depend on the specific implementation in the school. And the parents to ask would be the parents of the kids in the specific school, not people blogging online. 

Edited June 25, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Dmmetler]

12 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If I were a student, that would certainly be my approach. It’s still galling that in the name of ‘free speech’ they’re requiring campuses to allow extremists access to students’ homes, places of residence. You know who WON’T be affected by that? Students who live off campus in massive, privately owned Greek houses.

It also really, really bothers me to see HBCU's listed as "Red" on the FIRE site with the reason that they don't allow free assembly. For example, Tennessee State  is one such school-it is rated lower by FIRE than many schools which have explicitly restrictive policies, like Union which has been known to expel students who mention being Gay on social media. Their reason for not allowing outside protesters on campus is simple. "Protests" against civil rights turned into mobs coming on campus and beating and killing the students and faculty, because a Black college was an open target for race related rage. 

 

I cannot see it as a free speech violation to not allow outsiders access to a campus that should be a safe place, particularly not when in the past, it has proven not to be. And as a mom who is sending a kid to a residential college next year, I really, really hope campus is a safe place for the students. 

[Dmmetler]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure I'm willing to listen. But whom do we listen to? People are quite heterogeneous. And I think there's a difference between "we'd like to spend social science time learning this and not learning a whitewashed version of history" and "we'd like to spend time on this that will crowd out other essential instruction." 

Anyway, I'm sure whether the parents are happy about it will depend on the specific implementation in the school. And the parents to ask would be the parents of the kids in the specific school, not people blogging online. 

I would argue that understanding a non-whitewashed version of history IS essential instruction. At least half of a student's time should be on humanities (past very early elementary, and even in early elementary, readalouds and shared experiences are accessible) and if a majority of the humanities reading materials used are designed to give a view of history, I'm OK with that. One of the biggest trends that I saw in my time teaching in public schools and in teaching teachers was that math and reading crowded out everything else, and I think we are seeing the results of that "Back to Basics" approach that focused on test scores.  

Edited June 25, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Dmmetler said:

I would argue that understanding a non-whitewashed version of history IS essential instruction. At least half of a student's time should be on humanities, and if a majority of the humanities reading materials used are designed to give a view of history, I'm OK with that. One of the biggest trends that I saw in my time teaching in public schools and in teaching teachers was that math and reading crowded out everything else, and I think we are seeing the results of that "Back to Basics" approach that focused on test scores.  

Sure, that sounds great to me. Totally agreed. 

I have to say that I can see why there was the focus on math and reading, because they ARE essential. I don't really know what one is supposed to do if most kids can't do basic math and can't read 😕 . I don't have solutions for that problem. Any thoughts, as someone with more experience? 

[bibiche]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure, that sounds great to me. Totally agreed. 

I have to say that I can see why there was the focus on math and reading, because they ARE essential. I don't really know what one is supposed to do if most kids can't do basic math and can't read 😕 . I don't have solutions for that problem. Any thoughts, as someone with more experience? 

Volunteer. You’re an educator, you have ideas. Share your expertise. 😀 

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

It also really, really bothers me to see HBCU's listed as "Red" on the FIRE site with the reason that they don't allow free assembly. For example, Tennessee State  is one such school-it is rated lower by FIRE than many schools which have explicitly restrictive policies, like Union which has been known to expel students who mention being Gay on social media. Their reason for not allowing outside protesters on campus is simple. "Protests" against civil rights turned into mobs coming on campus and beating and killing the students and faculty, because a Black college was an open target for race related rage. 

 

I cannot see it as a free speech violation to not allow outsiders access to a campus that should be a safe place, particularly not when in the past, it has proven not to be. And as a mom who is sending a kid to a residential college next year, I really, really hope campus is a safe place for the students. 

It still is an easy target. Elizabeth City State in NC was evacuated in the last year or two due to credible threats against its campus and students.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, bibiche said:

Volunteer. You’re an educator, you have ideas. Share your expertise. 😀 

I've thought about it, honestly. I just don't have the time or energy right now. 

As is, I think of the work I do with homeschooled kids as basically volunteering 😉 (I do charge a nominal amount, but mostly so that people would actually feel committed). But that doesn't help schools much! 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

It still is an easy target. Elizabeth City State in NC was evacuated in the last year or two due to credible threats against its campus and students.

That's terrible 😕. 

[Dmmetler]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure, that sounds great to me. Totally agreed. 

I have to say that I can see why there was the focus on math and reading, because they ARE essential. I don't really know what one is supposed to do if most kids can't do basic math and can't read 😕 . I don't have solutions for that problem. Any thoughts, as someone with more experience? 

The problem that I saw was that we were using really really bad methods for teaching both and expecting increased time and increased assessment to lead to improvements.

 

If you do a phonics first approach with everyone, yes, there will be some kids who don't need it, and some for whom it isn't enough, but about 75% will learn to read better this way, and learning disabilities, vision disturbances, and the like will show up more clearly and can be remediated more clearly (and those that need to move faster and are already independent readers can usually benefit from phonics for spelling). 

 

Similarly, if you do a sequential math program in elementary (something like Singapore math), you'll likely catch most kids, and figure out who needs to move faster or needs a different approach. 

 

Get those basics solid, and coupled with lots of time to explore in early childhood, and you then can use those skills down the road.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

That's terrible 😕. 

It’s hard to get especially worked up about someone losing a speaking engagement when the rhetoric and behavior on that side of the debate is physically endangering real people, right now.

[bibiche]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've thought about it, honestly. I just don't have the time or energy right now. 

As is, I think of the work I do with homeschooled kids as basically volunteering 😉 (I do charge a nominal amount, but mostly so that people would actually feel committed). But that doesn't help schools much! 

I hear you on the time and energy thing. In the meantime, you’re learning more how kids learn and respond to teaching methods, and hopefully one day you’ll be able to share that with the community.

And I hear you on homeschoolers and commitment! What is up with that?! Free doesn’t mean you are free to not honor your commitment to show up!!

[Fritz]

9 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I don't know if most white people do it, but I've definitely been in conversations where white people have said racist things with a wink or a smirk.  Kinda like "You know how it is, with those people, *wink*wink*".  

More subtle racism has been where they keep mentioning the race of the other person when it has utterly nothing to do with the conversation.  It's a way of feeling-out how the other white person feels about race without being direct and outing yourself as a blatant racist. 

There is a local pastor's wife that does this when she first gets to know people.   She'd tell stories of when her kid was in school, and how the kid was treated by the "Mexican teacher", or how they met this really nice "Black lady" at the farmer's market.  If it happened once, you might brush it off as being oddly detailed in with descriptions. But it happened over and over, to a degree that it felt like she was trying to indirectly make a point.  Because she was.  😠

I once had an apartment upstairs from some black males. The floors were apparently thin and I often heard them and their friends saying things that started with, "White people ....blah, blah, blah" Is that racist? I think so. I don't see how this is different from what you are saying about white people saying things when they don't think anyone hears them. I am sure these men had no idea that their voices carried straight upstairs. They were making statements about white people that they would probably not have said in my presence.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Fritz

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

The problem that I saw was that we were using really really bad methods for teaching both and expecting increased time and increased assessment to lead to improvements.

I saw this in our brief stint in kindergarten -- they were using sight words to learn, and as far as I could tell, kids weren't reading much better at the end than at the beginning. 

And one of the only things DD8 learned in kindergarten math was the wrong definition of perimeter 😂.

 

17 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

If you do a phonics first approach with everyone, yes, there will be some kids who don't need it, and some for whom it isn't enough, but about 75% will learn to read better this way, and learning disabilities, vision disturbances, and the like will show up more clearly and can be remediated more clearly (and those that need to move faster and are already independent readers can usually benefit from phonics for spelling). 

Similarly, if you do a sequential math program in elementary (something like Singapore math), you'll likely catch most kids, and figure out who needs to move faster or needs a different approach. 

Get those basics solid, and coupled with lots of time to explore in early childhood, and you then can use those skills down the road.

Any idea what would need to happen to get people to start using reasonable stuff?? 

[SKL]

10 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I don't know if most white people do it, but I've definitely been in conversations where white people have said racist things with a wink or a smirk.  Kinda like "You know how it is, with those people, *wink*wink*".  

More subtle racism has been where they keep mentioning the race of the other person when it has utterly nothing to do with the conversation.  It's a way of feeling-out how the other white person feels about race without being direct and outing yourself as a blatant racist. 

There is a local pastor's wife that does this when she first gets to know people.   She'd tell stories of when her kid was in school, and how the kid was treated by the "Mexican teacher", or how they met this really nice "Black lady" at the farmer's market.  If it happened once, you might brush it off as being oddly detailed in with descriptions. But it happened over and over, to a degree that it felt like she was trying to indirectly make a point.  Because she was.  😠

This does not occur in any group I've been in over the past 30 years.

ETA:  Correction:  I have heard Indian and Hispanic people do this.  But not "white people" i.e. non-POCs.

Edited June 25, 2021 by SKL

[Dmmetler]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It still is an easy target. Elizabeth City State in NC was evacuated in the last year or two due to credible threats against its campus and students.

Lincoln U (MO) specifically addressed how they were keeping students on campus safe (and keeping outsiders off campus) because apparently there had been issues there fairly recently, too. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

This does not occur in any group I've been in over the past 30 years.

You clearly don't hang out with any Russian immigrants 😂. Although they tend to be more straightforward than that! 

[SKL]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

I've seen it happen enough that I'm pretty sure it happens with a majority of white people.  Maybe not all white people I know, but definitely more than 50%.  

I completely disagree.

[Dmmetler]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I saw this in our brief stint in kindergarten -- they were using sight words to learn, and as far as I could tell, kids weren't reading much better at the end than at the beginning. 

And one of the only things DD8 learned in kindergarten math was the wrong definition of perimeter 😂.

 

Any idea what would need to happen to get people to start using reasonable stuff?? 

One change is already happening in that colleges are now teaching it again. Teach the teachers and it will reach the students. Math education, in particular, has gone from constructivism being the only option to recognizing that, yes, you need to actually teach skills. I honestly think Common Core is a good thing in this regard, albeit a little more focused on writing than is ideal.