Mom in Va. who lived through Cultural Revolution addresses school board regarding Critical Race Theory

[Condessa]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If the less melanated and more melanated members of my 1st cousin cohort that question it’s a resounding, yes. Our family situations are all similar, genetics, intelligence, location, etc. also, by the way, black people also burn.

I know they do.  Just in my family personally, though, my paler kids burn way faster and worse than my daughter with a more hispanic complexion.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Condessa said:

I know they do.  Just in my family personally, though, my paler kids burn way faster and worse than my daughter with a more hispanic complexion.

I walked around NYC with my kids and SIL last month and peeled for a solid week afterward. It’s just one of those trite things people say, like black peoples have higher pain tolerances, that is patently false. Tribes in sub Saharan Africa coat their skin in oils and mineral pigments to prevent sun damage.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Condessa]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I walked around NYC with my kids and SIL last month and peeled for a solid week afterward. It’s just one of those trite things people say, like black peoples have higher pain tolerances, that is patently false.

Ouch!  

I recall once when I was a daycare teacher before I had kids, my coteacher wanted to skip sunscreening the little black girl in my class before going out for recess because she "didn't need it".  Idiot.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Condessa

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The idea that some teachers teach this badly so we shouldn't do it seems odd to me. Some teacher teach math badly...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach math in school. 

I have the same views about the idea of teaching the Bible as literature. There are too many ways for that to go wrong in a public elementary or middle school for me to want it to be done.  I feel like chances are it will do little good and possibly a fair amount of harm.

Lots of things are like that.  This current issue just happens to be about a fairly taboo subject which makes it harder to discuss.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I walked around NYC with my kids and SIL last month and peeled for a solid week afterward. It’s just one of those trite things people say, like black peoples have higher pain tolerances, that is patently false. Tribes in sub Saharan Africa coat their skin in oils and mineral pigments to prevent sun damage.

Pro tip (not directly for you, S1 but in general), As a redhead who can burn pretty fast at sea level but likes to hike at 5000-8000 feet where the sun is much stronger, if you forget your sunscreen you can smear mud onto exposed skin and it works pretty well.  I did this on my feet once, when I decided to wear water sandals instead of trail runners but did not have any sunscreen for my feet, and even that previously very unexposed skin pointing straight at the sky did not burn.  

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The idea that some teachers teach this badly so we shouldn't do it seems odd to me. Some teacher teach math badly...but that doesn't mean we shouldn't teach math in school. 

It does mean, however, that when parents and teachers in individual schools complain about what their children are being very poorly taught eg the 'whiteness is a contract with the devil' picture book for Kindy students, schools stop, listen, and do a hell of a lot better. 

I mean, c'mon, what made a school think that was a good idea? 

Schools could almost completely calm the situation by meeting with parents, and showing them the (non-devil) curriculum they are using that doesn't do what others are claiming.

They could understand that maybe it's not such a great move having "passionate" teachers improvise outside the curriculum. 

And they could allow opt-out for activities that involve students of any age having to declare and rank identities. 

But you know, if schools are gonna close ranks, and treat Asian mothers (OPs article) as demonstrating malign Whiteness and shut them out...expect to see the situation escalate, not de-escalate. 

Parents do retain a right to know what their children are being taught. Imagine your kid has a science teacher who trashes evolution as heathen nonsense - you want to know that, right? It's not so good when the off-curriculum 'teaching' is stuff you don't agree with.

I've asked to see the curriculum before.It was sex ed, and I wanted to check that DD was correct it did not teach safe sex for same sex couples. She was right. So I went and talked to the school, and because they didn't treat parents like the enemy, they listened and agreed to remedy the curriculum by the next year, which didn't help us but did help the students coming after her.

 I honestly meant to think that this recourse is ok for me, because I was on the 'right' side of the issue, but not for people who are on the 'wrong' side?

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Whiteness is an advantage in an historically white racist society. Blackness, a disadvantage. 

My advantage is experienced mostly as an absence - things don't happen to me because of my skin. For example, not getting followed in shops. 

Advantages don't always manifest materially in terms of power and resources (though they can). For example, theoretically, in a sexist society, all males are advantaged. For example, they can generally rely on the fact that medication has been trialled on others of their sex. 

However, when I walk past a homeless guy on the street, it is clear that his male advantage hasn't caused a corresponding leap in his power and resources over me, a woman with a bed to sleep in. 

That's because of his disadvantages intersecting with his male advantage. Functionally, he is not experiencing privilege as we would understand it. 

The same occurs in the classroom. No-one is a single set of advantages or disadvantages. Identities cannot be 'ranked'. That wealthy white girl with an eating disorder? Does she functionally have power when she's back in hospital being tube fed against her will? Of course not. And that's why skilful practitioners matter in the classroom. 

If you've taught in such a way that your biracial student is suing you, well, you weren't very skilful, were you? 

 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I have olive skin even though I'm not Hispanic. My 23 and Me results show I'm 99% European and about 80% British. But somehow I have very dark eyes and olive skin. 

I don't need to worry about sunburn although I do burn. But I've struggled with hyperpigmentation. 

I can't count the number of times I've been asked about my ethnicity. Everyone likes to speculate about my ethnicity. 

When I was in the 4th grade, a little boy called me the n word because of my skin. I was much darker in those days because I was outside all of the time. 

I'm completely white but the message that I picked up all of my life was that it was *better* to be light-skinned. 

My brother and sisters are all paled skinned with freckles (genetics are weird). We look so much alike except for a different coloring and people speculated that we weren't related. People rarely see past skin color. 

So yes, I would say that my pale, freckled siblings have a privilege that I didn't have. 

 

This. My best friend growing up was white of European ancestry, but had the same coloring as you describe, and she was ridiculed often. When we were in third grade she told me how lucky I was to be so white, and how she was sad to know she was a bad person because of her skin because she didn't feel like a bad person.

I am sick of people arguing over stupid semantics and getting their feathers ruffled every time there is a discussion about it.

As for school, if I made a list of every subject that should never be taught because some teachers somewhere do it badly, there would be no math, no science, no English, no reading, no music, no art, no foreign language, no history, no geography, no nothing. No school. This is an excuse to not even try, and that is wrong on every level.

Even if CRT turned out to be radical, liberal, leftist, whatever the insult du jour is, so what. Maybe radical is what we need. Maybe progressive and liberal and leftist is going to be the push we need as a society to get over our fragile feelings and take serious aim at the problem instead of kicking the can another generation down the road. And I am not convinced it is any of those things either, I just think that a certain block of politicians and journalists get a lot of mileage making hay out of riling the electorate up about it.

 

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, HeartString said:

I wonder if benefits would feel better than privilege, since privilege has been weaponized.  I benefit in our society from my white skin and middle class income.  I benefited from my parents and grandparents choosing to stay married.  I’m bestowing that benefit on my children. I benefited from a good education, which was a benefit of my parents education and income.  
 

Not everyone has the same benefits.  Some have more, some have less.  

I think one problem is that some people squish their socio-economic advantage with their racial advantage and call it all Whiteness. 

Way back, LucyStoner shared a link about how as progressive whites learn about White privilege, they simultaneously harden their attitudes against poor or otherwise disadvantaged whites....I've heard that attitude here on the board. "You got a head start, only yourself to blame if you didn't win.'

Part of my issue with privilege discourse is that it isn't intersectional enough! It elides class. It skims over disability, particularly addiction and mental illness. It frequently ignores sex. It plays an unskilful game of Top Trumps. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

6 hours ago, Fritz said:

The big difference I see here is this, the speakers on college campuses and the posts on social media are optional. You can choose to attend or follow those events/posts. Teachers and curriculums are not optional.

Those students, professors and outsiders that show up at these on campus events to protest speakers in an effort (usually successfully) to shut down free speech have the option to just not attend the event. Students in classrooms that are presented with a curriculum can not opt out. As we have seen in some of these cases the curriculum is being hidden from parents. That in particular raises red flags for me.

I'd agree with this. 

Curriculum should not be hidden from parents. 

100% blame on schools that do this.

Education works best as a three way partnership - students, teachers, parents. Start cutting parents out of the loop, you'll get problems. 

Schools have the power to de-escalate 99% of these parent outcries. 

I mean, seriously, call a meeting. Lay out all the resources you're going to be using. Have copies of the curriculum to read. Let parents browse the materials.  Talk about how those materials will be implemented in the classroom. Have a Q and A where parents can ask clarifying questions. Conclude with the reminder that your doors are always open should parents have further concerns. 

If you back your curriculum and teaching staff as pedagogically sound, the above should be zero problem for you. 

 

[HeartString]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd agree with this. 

Curriculum should not be hidden from parents. 

100% blame on schools that do this.

Education works best as a three way partnership - students, teachers, parents. Start cutting parents out of the loop, you'll get problems. 

Schools have the power to de-escalate 99% of these parent outcries. 

I mean, seriously, call a meeting. Lay out all the resources you're going to be using. Have copies of the curriculum to read. Let parents browse the materials.  Talk about how those materials will be implemented in the classroom. Have a Q and A where parents can ask clarifying questions. Conclude with the reminder that your doors are always open should parents have further concerns. 

If you back your curriculum and teaching staff as pedagogically sound, the above should be zero problem for you. 

 

That might work *if* one particular news network didn’t pick it up as an issue and run with it to juice ratings.  You might leave a meeting such as you described feeling ok about the whole thing, but how many hours of “news” do you think it would take to turn that? 

It also ignore the fact that there are out and proud racist still around who would NEVER be ok with this, no matter how well thought out.  I grew up in the south, these people are real, they aren’t shy and they aren’t as rare as some might think.  

[Dmmetler]

 

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd agree with this. 

Curriculum should not be hidden from parents. 

100% blame on schools that do this.

Education works best as a three way partnership - students, teachers, parents. Start cutting parents out of the loop, you'll get problems. 

Schools have the power to de-escalate 99% of these parent outcries. 

I mean, seriously, call a meeting. Lay out all the resources you're going to be using. Have copies of the curriculum to read. Let parents browse the materials.  Talk about how those materials will be implemented in the classroom. Have a Q and A where parents can ask clarifying questions. Conclude with the reminder that your doors are always open should parents have further concerns. 

If you back your curriculum and teaching staff as pedagogically sound, the above should be zero problem for you. 

 

 

My concern with the parent who was suing the school in NV is that the school is a charter school with "Democracy" in the name. That implies a focus on history and civics that the students would not have at a neighborhood zoned high school. If it is like the charters here, that senior year sociology class was likely listed as part of the plan of study and was bragged about precisely because it was not the typical curriculum. It's kind of like enrolling in a math/science charter and complaining that Calculus is too hard and they expect your kid to do math in Chemistry and that's not fair! Charter schools are generally MORE transparent than zoned schools, not less. 

 

Now, was it done right? Maybe not. Probably not, if the statements in the reports are at all accurate.

 

But if I enrolled my kid in a school with a name like Democracy Prep,the idea that they would discuss that freedom and democracy isn't the same under historic or current conditions for all groups  equally would be a feature, not a bug, even if it makes my child a bit uncomfortable because they are in a place of percieved privilege in that day's discussion.

[Melissa Louise]

6 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

 

My concern with the parent who was suing the school in NV is that the school is a charter school with "Democracy" in the name. That implies a focus on history and civics that the students would not have at a neighborhood zoned high school. If it is like the charters here, that senior year sociology class was likely listed as part of the plan of study and was bragged about precisely because it was not the typical curriculum. It's kind of like enrolling in a math/science charter and complaining that Calculus is too hard and they expect your kid to do math in Chemistry and that's not fair! Charter schools are generally MORE transparent than zoned schools, not less. 

 

Now, was it done right? Maybe not. Probably not, if the statements in the reports are at all accurate.

 

But if I enrolled my kid in a school with a name like Democracy Prep,the idea that they would discuss that freedom and democracy isn't the same under historic or current conditions for all groups  equally would be a feature, not a bug, even if it makes my child a bit uncomfortable because they are in a place of percieved privilege in that day's discussion.

I'd expect that my biracial kids would not be caused harm or distress in the teaching of freedom and democracy. 

I don't think that's unreasonable. 

[Melissa Louise]

9 minutes ago, HeartString said:

That might work *if* one particular news network didn’t pick it up as an issue and run with it to juice ratings.  You might leave a meeting such as you described feeling ok about the whole thing, but how many hours of “news” do you think it would take to turn that? 

It also ignore the fact that there are out and proud racist still around who would NEVER be ok with this, no matter how well thought out.  I grew up in the south, these people are real, they aren’t shy and they aren’t as rare as some might think.  

Ok, so what's the alternative? Shut out parents, allow teachers to continue to 'improvise', use crappy, simplistic resources...and just shrug? Because Fox? 

Double down on devil talk? Damn the unintended outcomes of prmoting an essentialized White racial identity? 

I'm out. I just wish the US wasn't so culturally hegemonic that these ideas get imported here wholesale. 

 

 

 

 

[Pam in CT]

re Cancel Culture Collides with CRT, Unintended Consequences Ensue

6 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I do think there will be some serious unintended consequences from these laws tho. The way the laws are written, the state may even be challenged on the existence of Columbus Day and Lee-Jackson day. Teaching about these holidays and individuals would cause discomfort. Can you even discuss the civil war without making children feel bad that their ancestors enslaved/were enslaved by others? Maybe but brace yourself for complaints and efforts to excise that whole shameful time period from history courses.

 

Here is the text of the Florida Board of Education ban.  Its second full paragraph reads:

Quote

(b) Instruction on the required topics must be factual and objective, and may not suppress or distort significant historical events, such as the Holocaust, and may not define American history as something other than the creation of a new nation based largely on universal principles stated in the Declaration of Independence.

What could possibly go wrong?

 

Last night I considered passing along here some of the highlights from this thread and at the time thought better of it.  And somehow now, something is moving me to do so...

 

 

And the comments...   😂

 

 

 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re Cancel Culture Collides with CRT, Unintended Consequences Ensue

 

Here is the text of the Florida Board of Education ban.  Its second full paragraph reads:

What could possibly go wrong?

 

Last night I considered passing along here some of the highlights from this thread and at the time thought better of it.  And somehow now, something is moving me to do so...

 

 

And the comments...   😂

 

 

 

Perverse but genius! Also, agreed on the plain text of the FL law. It’s plainly designed to erase large swaths of American history. DD has FSU and FAMU on her list. We’re supposed to visit next week. I have questions.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Perverse but genius!

"Thomas Jefferson: How one founding father contributed to American Diversity!" And the internet award for best Cards Against Humanity pairing goes to......

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Condessa said:

But is having white skin a privilege?  Being discriminated against for having a different color skin would be an injustice.  I don't think my kids who take after my side of the family have a "privilege" over my daughter who takes after the other side of the family for having lighter skin.

I think of not being discriminated against as a right, not a privilege.  

 

1 hour ago, Condessa said:

Privilege: a special favor, honor, or right granted to a person or persons

I think two meanings of the word "privilege" are being conflated. There's the definition you gave, that means getting something extra or a special favor, but there's the other meaning that means something more akin to an advantage or a benefit. It doesn't mean that it's an extra that everyone shouldn't enjoy the same benefits of, like a child's reward for showing a certain level of responsibility, it just means it confers some advantage to the person holding it (an advantage that can, as Melissa has been saying, be cancelled out or mediated by some other disadvantage). So, a child coming from an intact family isn't an extra reward, but it does most often confer an advantage that a child from a non-intact family doesn't have. To your final sentence, not being discriminated against is a right, but it's one that in our society, people with white skin are more likely to have the advantage of that right being granted and respected.

1 hour ago, pinball said:

I think it is an inappropriate way for framing U.S. history, especially for younger kids, so it is inevitable that it will be taught “badly.”

But what's the alternative? I'm not talking about CRT specifically, but about including discussions of race and systemic racism when talking about US history. I can't see a way to teach history without inadvertently (or purposely) applying some kind of lens as regards race. To leave out discussions of systemic racism is to apply a lens that centers "Whiteness" as the default in our history. I'm not advocating things like that "Not My Idea" book mentioned in The Atlantic article--I think that was a terrible choice--or having kids labeled individually, but I don't see leaving out race as a neutral decision, either.

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I have the same views about the idea of teaching the Bible as literature. There are too many ways for that to go wrong in a public elementary or middle school for me to want it to be done.  I feel like chances are it will do little good and possibly a fair amount of harm.

Lots of things are like that.  This current issue just happens to be about a fairly taboo subject which makes it harder to discuss.

But like I was asking pinball, how do you propose to teach history while not having discussions of racism?

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

It does mean, however, that when parents and teachers in individual schools complain about what their children are being very poorly taught eg the 'whiteness is a contract with the devil' picture book for Kindy students, schools stop, listen, and do a hell of a lot better. 

I mean, c'mon, what made a school think that was a good idea? 

Schools could almost completely calm the situation by meeting with parents, and showing them the (non-devil) curriculum they are using that doesn't do what others are claiming.

They could understand that maybe it's not such a great move having "passionate" teachers improvise outside the curriculum. 

And they could allow opt-out for activities that involve students of any age having to declare and rank identities. 

But you know, if schools are gonna close ranks, and treat Asian mothers (OPs article) as demonstrating malign Whiteness and shut them out...expect to see the situation escalate, not de-escalate. 

Parents do retain a right to know what their children are being taught. Imagine your kid has a science teacher who trashes evolution as heathen nonsense - you want to know that, right? It's not so good when the off-curriculum 'teaching' is stuff you don't agree with.

I've asked to see the curriculum before.It was sex ed, and I wanted to check that DD was correct it did not teach safe sex for same sex couples. She was right. So I went and talked to the school, and because they didn't treat parents like the enemy, they listened and agreed to remedy the curriculum by the next year, which didn't help us but did help the students coming after her.

 I honestly meant to think that this recourse is ok for me, because I was on the 'right' side of the issue, but not for people who are on the 'wrong' side?

I don't know who thought that was a good idea. I hope most people here can agree that was not a good choice (but expect there are some that don't). However, I still maintain that in the US right now, most of the people upset about this aren't just upset about these poor applications, they are upset about the whole idea of a more complete history being taught, with racial injustices being a part of it. A large number of them hold strong to the "talking about race is racist" idea, and these examples of terrible application are just being used as political pawns. For parents in any school district where these things are actually happening, absolutely they should be able to do as you say above.

23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd agree with this. 

Curriculum should not be hidden from parents. 

100% blame on schools that do this.

Education works best as a three way partnership - students, teachers, parents. Start cutting parents out of the loop, you'll get problems. 

Schools have the power to de-escalate 99% of these parent outcries. 

I mean, seriously, call a meeting. Lay out all the resources you're going to be using. Have copies of the curriculum to read. Let parents browse the materials.  Talk about how those materials will be implemented in the classroom. Have a Q and A where parents can ask clarifying questions. Conclude with the reminder that your doors are always open should parents have further concerns. 

If you back your curriculum and teaching staff as pedagogically sound, the above should be zero problem for you. 

 

In all the school districts around me, they actually do this. They have curriculum nights, and parents can come and look at all the curriculum that will be used. I don't know how responsive schools are to calls for change though, not having used the public schools. I do know when I followed the elementary math adoption process closely, I thought it was a mess and largely the blind leading the blind. Very frustrating.

[Faith-manor]

Our local district has an open house (well they tried to do something virtual for the pandemic) at the beginning of the year, and all of the curriculum is out and teachers and administrators are available to ask questions. A handful of parents come. That is it. And these are never the parents that end up raising cain later. 

[Dmmetler]

19 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I'd expect that my biracial kids would not be caused harm or distress in the teaching of freedom and democracy. 

I don't think that's unreasonable. 

This is from the school’s public facing website. I think it was very likely that a light skinned child who chose to attend would potentially feel disconcerted by some of the discussions, and needed to be emotionally prepared for it. And this isn’t what parents were given at back to school night, individual teacher websites specific to the class, or curriculum night, which will tend to be more detailed. Again, charter schools, in the US, are schools the student and family have to apply to attend. They tend to really, really, push the benefits of that particular school and specific differences in curriculum so they can differentiate themselves from the regular zoned public school that would be the default. 

Quote

BlackLivesMatter

The Democracy Prep community stands in solidarity with all social justice movements. We stand–unabashedly against racial profiling, police brutality, and any other form of racialized disparity in the criminal justice system. We will continue to engage in these painful but necessary conversations about structural inequity, community empowerment, and racial identity to prepare our scholars to be the next generation of changemakers.  Please visit the black lives matter civics page to view resources and actions steps that can help make a difference.

https://democracyprep.org/programs/civics/
 

[Carol in Cal.]

20 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

 

But like I was asking pinball, how do you propose to teach history while not having discussions of racism?

 

I did not propose this.

What I did was say that the argument that a particular way of approaching teaching about an issue is inevitably going to cause more problems than it fixes is a reasonable one to think through when anything new is being added to curricula.

Unlike a lot of people here, I actually did homeschool, and I absolutely taught history in such a way as to include discussion of racism.  It doesn’t have to be done badly to be done.  Rather it has to be done truthfully.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Carol in Cal.

[Melissa Louise]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

This is from the school’s public facing website. I think it was very likely that a light skinned child who chose to attend would potentially feel disconcerted by some of the discussions, and needed to be emotionally prepared for it. And this isn’t what parents were given at back to school night, individual teacher websites specific to the class, or curriculum night, which will tend to be more detailed. Again, charter schools, in the US, are schools the student and family have to apply to attend. They tend to really, really, push the benefits of that particular school and specific differences in curriculum so they can differentiate themselves from the regular zoned public school that would be the default. 

https://democracyprep.org/programs/civics/
 

All that tells me is that I can see why a Black mother chose it. Presumably, she thought it would be a better environment for her biracial son. 

If schools feel it's important to 'disconcert' their biracial students, I don't know what to say about that, except I'm glad I homeschooled. 

 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

All that tells me is that I can see why a Black mother chose it. Presumably, she thought it would be a better environment for her biracial son. 

If schools feel it's important to 'disconcert' their biracial students, I don't know what to say about that, except I'm glad I homeschooled. 

 

In a classroom discussion, you’re  likely to hear disconcerting things from teachers but, even more likely, from your fellow students. I know I did. But, you’re right. The point of these bans is to prevent any discomfort whatsoever and, in that vein, all discussion should be halted. Someone may accidentally, on purpose, curse too.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

In a classroom discussion, you’re  likely to hear disconcerting things from teachers but, even more likely, from your fellow students. I know I did.

I hope none of my students hear things from me that cause them to be 'disconcerted' aka distressed.

Distress is an emotional state inimical to learning. 

[HeartString]

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 

Unlike a lot of people here, I actually did homeschool, and I absolutely taught history in such a way as to include discussion of racism.  It doesn’t have to be done badly to be done.  Rather it has to be done truthfully.

I homeschool and feel like I did a decent job at history, but I’m pretty sure the part where I sent the little brother to “discover” and lay claim to the bedroom of my kid that was studying Columbus wouldn’t be allowed. Trying to imperfectly demonstrate the injustice of laying claim to land that already had people on it would not be allowed under the FL law described up thread.   

Edited June 14, 2021 by HeartString

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I hope none of my students hear things from me that cause them to be 'disconcerted' aka distressed.

Distress is an emotional state inimical to learning. 

And yet, it’s also completely human and common and impossible to eliminate/eradicate.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

 

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I hope none of my students hear things from me that cause them to be 'disconcerted' aka distressed.

Distress is an emotional state inimical to learning. 

How on earth does one learn about wars, the Holocaust, etc without being distressed in some way? They are distressing. So is racism. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

And yet, it’s also completely human and common and impossible to eliminate.

Possible not to deliberately go about inculcating it in the classroom. I mean, I could let my pro biracial, anti male bias fly in the classroom too, and call reactions 'mono-racial male fragility', but I don't do that because I'm not a d*ck, and every one of my students deserves to be treated as an individual. 

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I homeschool and feel like I did a decent job at history, but I’m pretty sure the part where I sent the little brother to “discover” and lay claim to the bedroom of my kid that was studying Columbus wouldn’t be allowed. Trying to imperfectly demonstrate the injustice of laying claim to land that already had people on it would not be allowed under the FL law described up thread.   

Imagine how much more fun it would have been if little brother had worn a blindfold and been directionless. 😂

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Possible not to deliberately go about inculcating it in the classroom. I mean, I could let my pro biracial, anti male bias fly in the classroom too, and call reactions 'mono-racial male fragility', but I don't do that because I'm not a d*ck, and every one of my students deserves to be treated as an individual. 

Who says all of these things are deliberate causes of distress tho. I think the vast majority of teachers have the best of intentions. I’m sure the teachers I had when we discussed Twain thought they were 100% neutral and kind. I still felt EXTREME distress and hate the author to this day. As I said upthread, the one highlight for me is that he, too, is now canceled. It brings me joy.

Edited June 14, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

 

How on earth does one learn about wars, the Holocaust, etc without being distressed in some way? They are distressing. So is racism. 

Firstly, we introduce distressing CONTENT in an age appropriate way.

Secondly, we don't personalise that content by assigning agency and responsibility for those distressing topics to the students sitting in front of us, via a focus on their identity. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Who says all of these things are deliberate causes of distress tho. I think the vast majority of teachers have the best of intentions. I’m sure the teachers I had when we discussed Twain thought they were 100% neutral and kind. I still felt EXTREME distress and hate the author to this day. As I said upthread, the one highlight for me is that he, too, is now canceled. It brings me joy.

Ok. Like I said, I would leave you all to your joy if the US wasn't culturally hegemonic. 

 

[Carrie12345]

52 minutes ago, Plum said:

How about Bourgeoisie and Proletariat? Haves and Have-nots? 

Because that’s not accurate for the discussion at hand. 
My well-to-do Dominican neighbors in their fancy house do not get to walk around in the world the way my family does when we step outside of our tiny little crap house.
When I lived in two different poor neighborhoods, I didn’t face the same issues as my mostly Black neighbors.

Money absolutely plays a part in many issues, but I’ve been white on both sides of the fence and know darker people on both sides of the fence. It’s not just the money.

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Firstly, we introduce distressing CONTENT in an age appropriate way.

Secondly, we don't personalise that content by assigning agency and responsibility for those distressing topics to the students sitting in front of us, via a focus on their identity. 

 

CRT does not assign agency or responsibility to any individual student. No one thinks the 5th grader in the 2nd row has responsibility for mortgage disparities between races. No one. 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, ktgrok said:

CRT does not assign agency or responsibility to any individual student. No one thinks the 5th grader in the 2nd row has responsibility for mortgage disparities between races. No one. 

Ok. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Because that’s not accurate for the discussion at hand. 
My well-to-do Dominican neighbors in their fancy house do not get to walk around in the world the way my family does when we step outside of our tiny little crap house.
When I lived in two different poor neighborhoods, I didn’t face the same issues as my mostly Black neighbors.

Money absolutely plays a part in many issues, but I’ve been white on both sides of the fence and know darker people on both sides of the fence. It’s not just the money.

It is partly the money! 

How can y'all be so pro-intersectionality and totally reject that class is one of those intersections?!

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Plum said:

 

 

This is actually the website for the school in question. It's the Andre Agassi campus in my school district. It's K-12. It's a charter school that has always been for economically disadvantaged kids even before it was democracy prep. The troubling thing is that it is required senior year and most of these kids won't complain for fear of not graduating. Just because one kid complained doesn't mean more didn't want to. 

http://dpac.democracyprep.org/

I'm still trying to figure out what is so bad about what they describe on their website? This is the quote, "We stand–unabashedly against racial profiling, police brutality, and any other form of racialized disparity in the criminal justice system. We will continue to engage in these painful but necessary conversations about structural inequity, community empowerment, and racial identity to prepare our scholars to be the next generation of changemakers. "

Which part of that are people against? Are they mad the school teaches that racial profiling is wrong? Do they want their children to be FOR police brutality and are mad the school is against it? What is the problem here? Community empowerment? A knowledge of structural inequality? That kids will discuss those things in the context of racial identity? What?

[ktgrok]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

It is partly the money! 

How can y'all be so pro-intersectionality and totally reject that class is one of those intersections?!

I don't think anyone is saying that class cannot provide benefits. Just that they are not the ONLY stratification. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

It is partly the money! 

How can y'all be so pro-intersectionality and totally reject that class is one of those intersections?!

Carrie is making this exact point.

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

It is partly the money! 

How can y'all be so pro-intersectionality and totally reject that class is one of those intersections?!

I *explicitly stated* that money absolutely plays a part in issues. And you quoted that.  Why would you accuse me of rejecting it?

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

I *explicitly stated* that money absolutely plays a part in issues. And you quoted that.  Why would you accuse me of rejecting it?

You explicitly subordinated class to race. That's just playing Top Trumps. 

Intersectionality, properly understood, is non-hierarchical. 

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't think anyone is saying that class cannot provide benefits. Just that they are not the ONLY stratification. 

And yet, consistently elided. 

 

[Carrie12345]

Just now, Melissa Louise said:

You explicitly subordinated class to race. That's just playing Top Trumps. 

Intersectionality, properly understood, is non-hierarchical. 

Bull crap it isn’t.  

[Faith-manor]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

CRT does not assign agency or responsibility to any individual student. No one thinks the 5th grader in the 2nd row has responsibility for mortgage disparities between races. No one. 

Bingo. Automatically assuming teachers and curriculum are out there to demonize white 5th graders and make them have anxiety is disingenuous and an unsupported argument.

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

And yet, consistently elided. 

 

I, for one, explicitly mentioned the impact the relative wealth of the exemplar communities and complainants being advanced in this thread.

[1234]

I don’t have a whole lot to add but I really don’t understand why the US can’t come up with a way to introduce these things even to elementary aged students. My first year homeschooling was 2008, so Obama’s first election. My kids were 1st and 3rd grade and we talked about how there had never been a Black President before. My oldest was absolutely shocked and we spent a lot of time discussing why that was and how that probably made all different kinds of people feel. I didn’t even vote for Obama that first time but I kept my kids up to see him win and hear his speech and we cried because it was amazing to witness and sad that it took so long. I think most of these kids will be able to understand that something is wrong that it took so long and be able to understand how white men holding so much power for so long could negatively affect those who are not white. As my dc grew we were able to discuss how other laws/power/issues negatively affected minorities, but many of the kids we have met along the way don’t have parents who do this (and many who won’t even acknowledge it). I do think it’s important for schools to teach an accurate account of history and that’s not going to be comfortable for many-it should still be done though.

[Melissa Louise]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm still trying to figure out what is so bad about what they describe on their website? This is the quote, "We stand–unabashedly against racial profiling, police brutality, and any other form of racialized disparity in the criminal justice system. We will continue to engage in these painful but necessary conversations about structural inequity, community empowerment, and racial identity to prepare our scholars to be the next generation of changemakers. "

Which part of that are people against? Are they mad the school teaches that racial profiling is wrong? Do they want their children to be FOR police brutality and are mad the school is against it? What is the problem here? Community empowerment? A knowledge of structural inequality? That kids will discuss those things in the context of racial identity? What?

Yes, I am definitely for teaching all children that police brutality is great and that we should all celebrate racial profiling. 

That is a thing I am clearly invested in, in my parenting and my teaching. 

I definitely tell ds, when he goes on BLM  protests, that a little police brutality and profiling won't do him any harm. I definitely DON'T tell him to be wary of the cops and to not assume he can antagonise them in the way his white friends can. 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Plum said:

Just to catch you up a light-skinned green-eyed biracial senior had to take the Sociology for Change class and was classified as an oppressor. He objected and didn't want to participate but because it was a required class for graduation, they failed him and he didn't graduate. I believe they settled by giving him a passing grade. If you read the court papers, there's more info. 

The Clarks allege that assignments in the course required students to reveal their race, gender, sexual orientation and disabilities and then determine if privilege or oppression is attached to those identities. The class, which was conducted virtually due to the ongoing pandemic, also included breakout discussions which the plaintiffs say students could opt out of but still created a “psychologically abusive dilemma” and a “hostile educational environment.”

“William Clark was compelled to participate in public professions of his racial, religious, sexual, and gender identities, and would be labeled as an “oppressor” on these bases,” reads the court filing"

I was only pointing out the stats and the website we've covered so far. This is a fast moving thread and I'm sure it was missed. 

https://www.nevadacurrent.com/2021/01/21/las-vegas-charter-school-sued-for-curriculum-covering-race-identity/

Just FYI- pleadings in civil suits represent allegations/claims, not facts. There is literally a plaintiff/claimant pleading their case and someone or something on the other side defending against those allegations/claims.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Plum said:

So the kid and the mom made it up? 

And an entire kindergarten cohort hallucinated the devil book. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Plum said:

So the kid and the mom made it up? 

I have no idea. Their case wasn’t adjudicated by a fact finder so there’s no evidence for or against their version of what happened. A lot of the information in pleadings is opinion, allegations. That’s it. It’s not The Gospel (TM). Derek Chauvin’s pleadings said he acted within the law. The triers of fact disagreed.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Sneezyone