Graduation ? (touchy subject)

[Sneezyone]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

No it’s not. That’s exactly what I think is egocentric about it - “Oh, but this issue is really, really important to me!” So what? The platform is not there for the student to foist their really, really important personal views on the listeners, who did not come to graduation to hear that student’s political views. 

What if it were the school principal who did this? What if it were a popular teacher who opened ceremonies and then veered off to talk about gun laws, same sex marriage, policing or legalization of certain drugs? It’s not appropriate. 

 

I’m still thinking through this but fir me it comes down to whether the student is speaking for themselves or for the class. I’ve never viewed valedictorians as being especially representative of the class so then speaking for themselves is my default view, even when they’re delivering saccharine platitudes wrapped in tender memories. Would it bother me to sit through a speech with which I disagree, sure, but less if it were student delivered than administration/adult led, no different from school prayer being student organized/led vs. adult issued. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[SquirrellyMama]

My HS was very controlling about what we wore. It was stressful. I was pleased to see kids wearing sandals, crocs, tennis shoes, as well as dress shoes. The story about the kid whose teacher gave him shoes so he could graduate, is touching and infuriating at the same time.

Re: The Mexican flag incident. I think a flag on the mortarboard would have been good, but it sounds like flags were not allowed even there. I suppose some of these rules are in place so seriously inappropriate flags are not represented (Confederate Flag). I say give him his diploma and move on.

Re: The off topic Valedictorian speech. Honestly, those speeches are usually so boring and idealistic, I think I might enjoy someone going rogue 🙂

Kelly

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m still thinking through this but fir me it comes down to whether the student is speaking for themselves or for the class. I’ve never viewed valedictorians as being especially representative of the class so then speaking for themselves is my default view, even when they’re delivering saccharine platitudes wrapped in tender memories. Would it bother me to sit through a speech with which I disagree, sure, but less if it were student delivered than administration m/adult let, no different from school prayer being student organized/led vs. adult issued. 

If the point of being valedictorian is not representing the school, but instead representing this one person’s view (whom we should implicitly hold in high esteem because they are the most academically successful student), then why would there be any such thing as approval for the speech? Why not just say, “Hey, you have ten minutes’ captive audience; say whatever the hell you want; improvise.” It’s just quite illogical to me for the student to veer off on her personal views about *anything* when giving a speech at graduation. 

The speeches at graduation should have to do with the school and futures of that class, just like all the saccharine platitude-laden speeches made at thousands of schools. 

It bothers me that the Texas young lady is getting a bunch of positive feedback from the left, yet I know without a doubt in my head that if the student had veered off script to prattle on about, say, what an awesome president we recently had and how we just cannot stay silent and let the “stolen election” go on, the same outlets (CNN, for eg.) would lose their damn minds. FN would have her as a guest and CNN would being going on endlessly about how the valedictorian speech is not the venue for spouting one’s political views. I see some fat hypocrisy there; I can’t get with that. 

[J-rap]

7 minutes ago, Quill said:

If the point of being valedictorian is not representing the school, but instead representing this one person’s view (whom we should implicitly hold in high esteem because they are the most academically successful student), then why would there be any such thing as approval for the speech? Why not just say, “Hey, you have ten minutes’ captive audience; say whatever the hell you want; improvise.” It’s just quite illogical to me for the student to veer off on her personal views about *anything* when giving a speech at graduation. 

The speeches at graduation should have to do with the school and futures of that class, just like all the saccharine platitude-laden speeches made at thousands of schools. 

It bothers me that the Texas young lady is getting a bunch of positive feedback from the left, yet I know without a doubt in my head that if the student had veered off script to prattle on about, say, what an awesome president we recently had and how we just cannot stay silent and let the “stolen election” go on, the same outlets (CNN, for eg.) would lose their damn minds. FN would have her as a guest and CNN would being going on endlessly about how the valedictorian speech is not the venue for spouting one’s political views. I see some fat hypocrisy there; I can’t get with that. 

I agree that whichever political side one seemed to support would draw encouraging applause from that side and negative feedback from the other.  Especially in today's tense environment.

I also have always felt that the point of the valedictorian's speech was to give a talk that would inspire all of the graduates, and not to be used as a podium for one's own very specific and sensitive/political views which would be sure to leave out part of the student body. 

As I said earlier, I'm all for activism and almost always support speaking out, but I think there's also a time to try and find commonalities and come together.  And I don't think it needs to be just a rote speech as others have indicated.  I think it can be specific toward the times but in a way that can include and inspire and maybe even challenge (in a positive way) everybody. 

[Murphy101]

I keep coming back to just do away with the speech entirely. 

If the speech can’t be one that mostly everyone in the school can be okay with.

and

The school cannot impose deterring or punitive measures for going off script 

and 

we all agree this is just a very likely thing to happen

then it follows to my mind the solution is to just do away with the insipid speeches altogether.

Much like how many schools have decided that proms just aren’t worth the hassle and and it saves money and time/staff resources to just not have it anyways.  Or at least not have it sponsored by the school anymore.  

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I keep coming back to just do away with the speech entirely. 

If the speech can’t be one that mostly everyone in the school can be okay with.

and

The school cannot impose deterring or punitive measures for going off script 

and 

we all agree this is just a very likely thing to happen

then it follows to my mind the solution is to just do away with the insipid speeches altogether.

Much like how many schools have decided that proms just aren’t worth the hassle and and it saves money and time/staff resources to just not have it anyways.  Or at least not have it sponsored by the school anymore.  

Well, I do remember a few years back there was a movement to get rid of valedictorian altogether because it unfairly exemplified one student who possibly had better genetics/better economic opportunities/supportive families over students without those things. People on the right were rolling their eyes about the “everybody-gets-a-trophy” call for leveling the playing field while people on the left were saying it rewards certain attributes that are mainly luck. 

Personally I like the traditional elements of graduation and don’t think they should be canned. 

[Murphy101]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

Well, I do remember a few years back there was a movement to get rid of valedictorian altogether because it unfairly exemplified one student who possibly had better genetics/better economic opportunities/supportive families over students without those things. People on the right were rolling their eyes about the “everybody-gets-a-trophy” call for leveling the playing field while people on the left were saying it rewards certain attributes that are mainly luck. 

Personally I like the traditional elements of graduation and don’t think they should be canned. 

I don’t think not having them make one speech removes any of their achievement to that point. Usually they have lots of credit for it along the way. 

I didn’t say to do away with graduation entirely. Just the val. speech part. 

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, Quill said:

If the point of being valedictorian is not representing the school, but instead representing this one person’s view (whom we should implicitly hold in high esteem because they are the most academically successful student), then why would there be any such thing as approval for the speech? Why not just say, “Hey, you have ten minutes’ captive audience; say whatever the hell you want; improvise.” It’s just quite illogical to me for the student to veer off on her personal views about *anything* when giving a speech at graduation. 

The speeches at graduation should have to do with the school and futures of that class, just like all the saccharine platitude-laden speeches made at thousands of schools. 

It bothers me that the Texas young lady is getting a bunch of positive feedback from the left, yet I know without a doubt in my head that if the student had veered off script to prattle on about, say, what an awesome president we recently had and how we just cannot stay silent and let the “stolen election” go on, the same outlets (CNN, for eg.) would lose their damn minds. FN would have her as a guest and CNN would being going on endlessly about how the valedictorian speech is not the venue for spouting one’s political views. I see some fat hypocrisy there; I can’t get with that. 

The approval, IMO, is for CONTROL and to reduce the risk of blatantly offensive content (slurs, lies, defamation, etc.). Administrator review has basically become the means by which any/all interesting or provocative content (which is different from discriminatory) is removed. Pablum is what usually comes out the other end. I’m not down with your premise that the speaker should only talk about the future (rather, your version of the future). Surely her concerns were future-related and forward thinking. These are newly minted legal adults and hearing new/different things on the eve of accepting the full responsibility of adulthood seems entirely appropriate.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think not having them make one speech removes any of their achievement to that point. Usually they have lots of credit for it along the way. 

I didn’t say to do away with graduation entirely. Just the val. speech part. 

I know; I wasn’t saying *you* said that. Just that I know there was a movement maybe ten years ago where schools were saying they wouldn't do valedictorian selection because it went to people with “lucky” advantages, even as they may also be hard workers. 

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I keep coming back to just do away with the speech entirely. 

If the speech can’t be one that mostly everyone in the school can be okay with.

and

The school cannot impose deterring or punitive measures for going off script 

and 

we all agree this is just a very likely thing to happen

then it follows to my mind the solution is to just do away with the insipid speeches altogether.

Much like how many schools have decided that proms just aren’t worth the hassle and and it saves money and time/staff resources to just not have it anyways.  Or at least not have it sponsored by the school anymore.  

If the valedictorian actually represented the class, it’d be chosen by a vote of the class. At my HS, most people grudgingly suffered through the speeches b/c the content was so bland and unremarkable. Almost anything other than do your best; have a nice life; thank your friends and family would be welcome, even if it was disagreeable. As usual in these situations, adults are a lot more upset than the actual graduates.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[catz]

49 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

It bothers me that the Texas young lady is getting a bunch of positive feedback from the left, yet I know without a doubt in my head that if the student had veered off script to prattle on about, say, what an awesome president we recently had and how we just cannot stay silent and let the “stolen election” go on, the same outlets (CNN, for eg.) would lose their damn minds. FN would have her as a guest and CNN would being going on endlessly about how the valedictorian speech is not the venue for spouting one’s political views. I see some fat hypocrisy there; I can’t get with that. 

But this is how freedom of speech works.  I live in a state capital and regularly cross paths with protests  and rallies for things I don't agree with, but I fully support their right to their opinion and to peacefully protest about it.  I don't watch CNN, but editorials and opinion panels and columns can be ridiculous on any network.  I'd be very surprised if this young woman isn't getting any negative feedback or consequences.  There are plenty of negative opinions here.  I have read negative and condescending responses.  

I am actually not a huge fan when young people like this get too much media though.  Like the media's obsession's with Greta Thunberg.  Or the young poet that spoke at the inauguration (Amanda Gorman I think).  I think both are impressive young passionate women.  But I also think teens and young adults should have the anonymity to reinvent themselves, flip flop, make mistakes without the media drawing attention to it over and over.   But given media likes to generate clicks and views, cherry picking and sensationalizing young people who likely have very similar views and intelligence and actions to thousands of other engaged young people seems to generate those for them.

On the other side, Kyle Rittenhouse showed up to a protest with a gun, killed 2 people and injured another and is getting plenty of positive feedback from his circle.  

Edited June 7, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

But this is how freedom of speech works.  I live in a state capital and regularly cross paths with protests  and rallies for things I don't agree with, but I fully support their right to their opinion and to peacefully protest about it.  I don't watch CNN, but editorials and opinion panels and columns can be ridiculous on any network.  I'd be very surprised if this young woman isn't getting any negative feedback or consequences.  

I still feel that that is separate. I am 100% in favor of marching/organizing/speaking on issues that are important to you (general you).  But I don’t think *the way* to do so is to hijack a ceremony that is for a totally different purpose.

In a way, I find it a bit lazy, because the rogue speaker couldn’t be bothered to do the work of marching/organizing/speaking/ letter-writing, etc.; she was only “passionate” enough about the subject to blather about it when she already had an audience that had nothing to do with that. 

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

I still feel that that is separate. I am 100% in favor of marching/organizing/speaking on issues that are important to you (general you).  But I don’t think *the way* to do so is to hijack a ceremony that is for a totally different purpose.

In a way, I find it a bit lazy, because the rogue speaker couldn’t be bothered to do the work of marching/organizing/speaking/ letter-writing, etc.; she was only “passionate” enough about the subject to blather about it when she already had an audience that had nothing to do with that. 

How is this different from tone policing? At the end of the day, protest and acts of defiance work because they make others uncomfortable and use/co-opt audiences where they are found. It’s no secret that I’ve never been a rule-follower for the sake of following rules. Just going up against my HS journalism teacher/yearbook advisor was a BFD and that was over COLOR PHOTOS in the yearbook. No joke, in 1994, I had to start a petition to get color photos in our yearbook. It’s like a bad John Hughes movie. Adults exert entirely too much control over students and activities that should be STUDENT-centered, not for safety/liability reasons but, for comfort reasons.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Danae]

57 minutes ago, Quill said:

It bothers me that the Texas young lady is getting a bunch of positive feedback from the left, yet I know without a doubt in my head that if the student had veered off script to prattle on about, say, what an awesome president we recently had and how we just cannot stay silent and let the “stolen election” go on, the same outlets (CNN, for eg.) would lose their damn minds. FN would have her as a guest and CNN would being going on endlessly about how the valedictorian speech is not the venue for spouting one’s political views. I see some fat hypocrisy there; I can’t get with that. 

You see hypocrisy in the contrast between what people are actually doing/saying and what you assume they would say in a situation that exists only in your head?  

[Murphy101]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

If the valedictorian actually represented the class, it’d be chosen by a vote of the class.

And if they voted for some Proud Boys guy? What then? Because you know some such relatable issue is bound to happen. 

 

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And if they voted for some Proud Boys guy? What then? Because you know some such relatable issue is bound to happen. 

 

Then that’s what the class chose.  Those folks existed at my HS and they do at DDs too. As administrators, the goal should be to prevent discriminatory behavior, racial slurs, and conduct that’s incompatible with a safe learning environment. Saying that you’re proud of your heritage, or pro-life or pro-abortion rights and refuse to apologize for it isn’t anything that hasn’t been said in those classrooms already. It’s *an* opinion from one person. As long as a) the student isn’t defaming/denigrating others, b) the student isn’t using slurs, c) the student isn’t speaking for anyone other than themselves, I’m more OK with a broader range of topics than not. I’m also OK with the students and school modeling FOR PARENTS AND OBSERVERS, how to accept hearing those things with equanimity.
 

My DD and I agree on more things than not but I find myself playing the fool/foil to her a lot for this reason. Convictions should be tested. Graduation is a wonderful milestone but I don’t think its speakers need to paper over all the challenging things that are happening to/around them. Can you imagine the Vietnam era speeches that went off script? 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

5 hours ago, Quill said:

No it’s not. That’s exactly what I think is egocentric about it - “Oh, but this issue is really, really important to me!” So what? The platform is not there for the student to foist their really, really important personal views on the listeners, who did not come to graduation to hear that student’s political views. 

What if it were the school principal who did this? What if it were a popular teacher who opened ceremonies and then veered off to talk about gun laws, same sex marriage, policing or legalization of certain drugs? It’s not appropriate. 

 

I’m just going to assume that most adults, unlike many teenagers, understand that it’s not generally productive activism to go off topic at a speech to a captive audience who is there for a totally different reason.  

I agree with you that it’s a bit egocentric for a young person to do this but again, who is more egotistical and earnestly passionate about their beliefs than an 18 year old?  
 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

You see hypocrisy in the contrast between what people are actually doing/saying and what you assume they would say in a situation that exists only in your head?  

I live in Seattle and am very liberal myself.  I know full well that hypocrisy with respect to free speech exists on the left.  Yes there are lefties who are would defend a conservative student’s statement on free speech grounds (myself included) but there are many who would not in 2021.  

I would hazard to guess that, where I live, it’s pretty easy for a kid to get up and say something left leaning at graduation.  If a kid got up and said something right leaning here, there would definitely be blow back from some people on the left.  Someone saying the election was stolen?  That would get labelled “hate speech”.  I could see the district opening an investigation about it TBH.  I’m trying to think of a right leaning message a student could make without causing a shit storm here and I’m coming up blank. Maybe a mild pro-life statement.  

Edited June 7, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Sneezyone]

23 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m just going to assume that most adults, unlike many teenagers, understand that it’s not generally productive activism to go off topic at a speech to a captive audience who is there for a totally different reason.  

I agree with you that it’s a bit egocentric for a young person to do this but again, who is more egotistical and earnestly passionate about their beliefs than an 18 year old?  
 

Ha, I do agree with the self-centerdness part but I’m gonna have to disagree with the captive audience bit. Whether it’s Woolworth’s counters, or WNBA playoffs, or withdrawing from a tournament, or seizing the limelight to raise your fist in the air, these things can absolutely make a lasting impact and help raise consciousness and support causes.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, LucyStoner said:

I live in Seattle and am very liberal myself.  I know full well that hypocrisy with respect to free speech exists on the left. 

I would hazard to guess that, where I live, it’s pretty easy for a kid to get up and say something left leaning at graduation.  If a kid got up and said something right leaning here, there would definitely be blow back from people on the left.  Someone saying the election was stolen?  That would get labelled hate speech.  

Well, that would be a lie. I do think basic fact checking should be part of any critique. I agree with you that Seattle is no free speech haven tho.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Well, that would be a lie. I do think basic fact checking should be part of any critique. I agree with you that Seattle is no free speech haven tho.

Yes, it’s a lie that the election was stolen but if a student has that as a deeply held opinion, who am I to say they can’t state their case and ramble on against supposed voter fraud?  I’d be amused to hear this at a graduation but I wouldn’t want to see the kid not get their diploma over it either.  

Edited June 7, 2021 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

32 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Ha, I do agree with the self-senterdness part but I’m gonna have to disagree with the captive audience bit. Whether it’s Woolworth’s counters, or WNBA playoffs, or withdrawing from a tournament, or seizing the limelight to raise your fist in the air, these things can absolutely make a lasting impact and help raise consciousness and support causes.

The actions that you reference all can and have made a difference that no graduation speech ever can.  Raising a fist in front of millions of people or refusing to leave an unjustly segregated space is different than going off topic in a graduation speech.  OT graduation speeches are more like Oscar acceptance speeches that go on far too long than they are like Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists. 
 

I don’t think valedictorian speeches should be limited in content besides the obvious (no slurs, no defamation etc) but I’m yet to hear one that matters all that much or is especially compelling as activism.  

Edited June 7, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

You see hypocrisy in the contrast between what people are actually doing/saying and what you assume they would say in a situation that exists only in your head?  

It does not exist only in my head. In fact, I was thinking about a specific, though different example of a person making a right-leaning statement in a public format and then being a guest on Fox News, while being excoriated on leftist media. It was the beauty pageant woman who answered a question about same-sex marriage by saying she believed marriage was between a man and a woman. (That instance was worse in fact, because she wasn’t going off script; she was answering the question she was given. But the gay judge did not like the answer, so he shredded her on his blog.) 

In the case of the Texas grad, she literally was on CNN a few days ago, with Chris Cuomo telling her she is brave and wonderful. Do you really think that’s what would happen if she went off script and praised the law? 

Also, just everything Lucy Stoner just said. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

The actions that you reference all can and have made a difference that no graduation speech ever can.  Raising a fist in front of millions of people or refusing to leave an unjustly segregated space is different than going off topic in a graduation speech.  OT graduation speeches are more like Oscar acceptance speeches that go on far too long than they are like Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists. 
 

I don’t think valedictorian speeches should be limited in content besides the obvious (no slurs, no defamation etc) but I’m yet to hear one that matters all that much or is especially compelling as activism.  

It’s not the impact that I think is similar but the hijacking of the platforms that were available, going into places that were hostile to those ideas and making a statement big enough to be seen. Impact is only ever really apparent in the rear view. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a really impactful speech from a high schooler but I’m not willing to foreclose the opportunity. They are learning how to adult, how to protest, how to speak, and how to advocate. So long as they can do that civilly, I’m cool with it.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

43 minutes ago, Quill said:

It does not exist only in my head. In fact, I was thinking about a specific, though different example of a person making a right-leaning statement in a public format and then being a guest on Fox News, while being excoriated on leftist media. It was the beauty pageant woman who answered a question about same-sex marriage by saying she believed marriage was between a man and a woman. (That instance was worse in fact, because she wasn’t going off script; she was answering the question she was given. But the gay judge did not like the answer, so he shredded her on his blog.) 

In the case of the Texas grad, she literally was on CNN a few days ago, with Chris Cuomo telling her she is brave and wonderful. Do you really think that’s what would happen if she went off script and praised the law? 

Also, just everything Lucy Stoner just said. 

You don’t think it was brave? I can disagree with people all day long and still admire their bravery for speaking when silence would be the easier course. Like, for real, I get that compliance is heavily prized but that’s exactly why speech is brave. If she had praised the law, she’d still be on TV being praised, just by a different network.

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

In a way, I find it a bit lazy, because the rogue speaker couldn’t be bothered to do the work of marching/organizing/speaking/ letter-writing, etc.; she was only “passionate” enough about the subject to blather about it when she already had an audience that had nothing to do with that. 

 

[LucyStoner]

29 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s not the impact that I think is similar but the hijacking of the platforms that were available, going into places that were hostile to those ideas and making a statement big enough to be seen. Impact is only ever really apparent in the rear view. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a really impactful speech from a high schooler but I’m not willing to foreclose the opportunity. They are learning how to adult, how to protest, how to speak, and how to advocate. So long as they can do that civilly, I’m cool with it.

I have a hard time seeing how a high school graduation is a hostile environment for these types of statements (the girl was applauded by her peers) but that’s probably because of where I live.  My first reaction was and remains that this is a nothing burger of a controversy.  Students can say what they want.  I didn’t say it was wrong in the least.  It’s just not as big of a deal in reality as it is to the person making the statement or to the schools over reacting to the statement.  

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

You don’t think it was brave? I can disagree with people all day long and still admire their bravery for speaking when silence would be the easier course. Like, for real, I get that compliance is heavily prized but that’s exactly why speech is brave. If she had praised the law, she’d still be on TV being praised, just by a different network.

I think it was inappropriate. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Whether or not it is brave is moot to me; I don’t think it’s the place. 

@Corraleno, I’m glad to see she also participates in appropriate actions. It doesn’t make the speech appropriate, IMO. 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

I have a hard time seeing how a high school graduation is a hostile environment for these types of statements (the girl was applauded by her peers) but that’s probably because of where I live.  My first reaction was and remains that this is a nothing burger of a controversy.  Students can say what they want.  I didn’t say it was wrong in the least.  It’s just not as big of a deal in reality as it is to the person making the statement or to the schools over reacting to the statement.  

Where I graduated, this would have been a BFD but, yeah, I agree it’s not that big of a deal in the grand scheme if things. Ironically, the adult outrage is what’s provided the big platform.

[LucyStoner]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Where I graduated, this would have been a BFD but, yeah, I agree it’s not that big of a deal in the grand scheme if things. Ironically, the adult outrage is what’s provided the big platform.

I graduated from hippie high in Seattle in 1998 which probably skews my perspective.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, LucyStoner said:

I graduated from hippie high in Seattle in 1998 which probably skews my perspective.  

I gave that anecdote about my AR high school for context. Dissent of any kind was unwelcome.

[Danae]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

It does not exist only in my head. In fact, I was thinking about a specific, though different example of a person making a right-leaning statement in a public format and then being a guest on Fox News, while being excoriated on leftist media. It was the beauty pageant woman who answered a question about same-sex marriage by saying she believed marriage was between a man and a woman. (That instance was worse in fact, because she wasn’t going off script; she was answering the question she was given. But the gay judge did not like the answer, so he shredded her on his blog.) 

In the case of the Texas grad, she literally was on CNN a few days ago, with Chris Cuomo telling her she is brave and wonderful. Do you really think that’s what would happen if she went off script and praised the law? 

Also, just everything Lucy Stoner just said. 

I think hypocrisy requires it being the same person.  One left-leaning person praising left-leaning speech and a different left-leaning person criticizing right-leaning speech does not add up to hypocrisy.

And yes, I am sure there are hypocrites on this issue.  But I also think the accusation gets thrown far too easily and often based on what the accuser assumes the person would say in a differently politically charged but otherwise similar situation.

[theelfqueen]

Can I say I am all.for ending the Valedictory speeches...not because of anyone's platforms but because graduation ceremonies are never-ending torture. I was delighted when my middle child opted out of graduations. 

[Faith-manor]

I am all for the drive through graduation. The school spends money on some large cakes - maybe even some gluten free ones. There is a little drop up window, graduate pulls up, lowers the window, is congratulated by the principal, the diploma is handed through the window along with a slice of cake and the student honks their horn, and drives away.

This is the kind of commencement I think there should be!

Edited June 7, 2021 by Faith-manor

[katilac]

I think some of y'all can get together and get a bulk discount on these 😄

[Faith-manor]

12 minutes ago, katilac said:

I think some of y'all can get together and get a bulk discount on these 😄

😂😂😂

[LucyStoner]

Ok, the boy being told he can’t get his diploma for breaking the dress code?  That’s just some school person on a power trip.  It doesn’t seem the girl with the speech has been denied her diploma.  I heard about a boy who wore his teacher’s shoes to graduation because the boy was wearing the wrong shoes and the school person in charge of the event wasn’t going to let him walk.  I guess it was supposed to be a heartwarming look at this nice teacher story but WTF was the boy even denied access to the event in first place?  

I didn’t have a dress code or even robes at my high school graduation (in fact, I got talked into wearing a ridiculous all purple outfit including a purple feather boa to match some of my friends who were also wearing monochrome dresses, tights and feather boas- largely this appealed because we got the dresses and boas for $5).  I just don’t understand why it matters that he draped a flag over his shoulders.  I suppose he could have decorated his mortar board like other people but if he had a flag sized for his shoulders and not his hat and chose to wear it, what is to be gained from making a big deal out of it.  Why does it matter?  What if he’d worn the POW MIA flag or the American flag?  Is it becuase he broke dress code or does someone just have a problem with him expressing pride in his Mexican heritage? 

[pinball]

I read online the student from NC who wore the flag was given his diploma.

[Melissa Louise]

Here's a good speech we can all watch instead.

 

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Here's a good speech we can all watch instead.

 

An actual graduation.  I figured you were going to rickroll us or something.  🤣

[BakersDozen]

So sorry to have started this thread then not come back. My kids arrived back from a hockey tournament and it was constant laundry and equipment sorting, then my computer blew up and I couldn't access anything. I finally found the right password for WTM tonight - thought I'd have to start a new account at one point, I'd tried everything I could think of and nothing worked. Anyway, my apologies - I didn't disappear on purpose. And as this has come and gone and there is new news to discuss, I'm off to catch up on a lot of board posts/reading.

[TexasProud]

I went to my neice's graduation a few weeks ago, and they were pretty smart.  It was held in a football stadium.  All of the student speeches were recorded ahead of time.  You could hear them, see them well and there were no surprises. Very well done.

[KungFuPanda]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:50 PM, Terabith said:

Even if I don't think what they did was appropriate, the consequence of *withholding a diploma* is huge and permanent and ridiculous.  

Is it? Is it the same as withholding his records or declaring that he never met the graduation requirements? (It’s a real question. I really don’t know.) I can’t remember if I’ve ever shown anyone my diploma after graduation. I’m guessing the valedictorian has already secured their spot in college. Is it a real problem or a token smack down?

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is it? Is it the same as withholding his records or declaring that he never met the graduation requirements? (It’s a real question. I really don’t know.) I can’t remember if I’ve ever shown anyone my diploma after graduation. I’m guessing the valedictorian has already secured their spot in college. Is it a real problem or a token smack down?

It can be. With some colleges, the diploma has to be issued, and the school has to send a final transcript to the student's college they accepted to verify that the diploma was given. Disciplinary procedures can result in not only a blemish on the final record and is often noted on transcripts, but can prevent the diploma from being issued. Some students also are allowed to walk at commencement, but may not be issued their diplomas if the parent owes money, books were not returned, an incomplete in a class was given but make-up in the summer is being allowed, etc.

You can meet graduation requirements, but be disciplined and not receive the diploma. It looks REALLY bad to colleges when this happens and can result in the acceptance being rescinded, loss of scholarship, loss of sports position, etc. And if they do not resolve the issue prior to the deadline for final transcript and certified diploma submission (often the end of the first or second week of June depending on the college), usually both scholarships and financial aid are taken away. 

Usually withholding the diploma goes hand in hand with holding transcripts. Schools hold a LOT of cards over student heads. I have negative feelings about that. 

[Dmmetler]

26 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It can be. With some colleges, the diploma has to be issued, and the school has to send a final transcript to the student's college they accepted to verify that the diploma was given. Disciplinary procedures can result in not only a blemish on the final record and is often noted on transcripts, but can prevent the diploma from being issued. Some students also are allowed to walk at commencement, but may not be issued their diplomas if the parent owes money, books were not returned, an incomplete in a class was given but make-up in the summer is being allowed, etc.

You can meet graduation requirements, but be disciplined and not receive the diploma. It looks REALLY bad to colleges when this happens and can result in the acceptance being rescinded, loss of scholarship, loss of sports position, etc. And if they do not resolve the issue prior to the deadline for final transcript and certified diploma submission (often the end of the first or second week of June depending on the college), usually both scholarships and financial aid are taken away. 

Usually withholding the diploma goes hand in hand with holding transcripts. Schools hold a LOT of cards over student heads. I have negative feelings about that. 

We had a panic yesterday because apparently L's college has not received ghe final transcript from the community college that we requested APRIL 30-and the deadline was Monday. Fortunately, they're giving us time to have it sent again (they have the high school transcript and a mid-year one from the CC, just not the one that shows the last semester of classes), and the classes are unlikely to affect course placement for fall since they were both 2000 level electives (journalism isn't in the degree path for a bio/science Ed major, and while Exceptional learning is, it isn't a first semester class). But the panic was real-if scholarships are pulled, that turns the first choice school from a dream achieved to completely unaffordable, and it's likely too late to get the scholarships back at schools that were declined back in April. 

 

Holding a final transcript/diploma is a BIG deal. It's not a slap on the wrist consequence, but about on the par with parents who refuse to file a FAFSA. 

[katilac]

On 6/18/2021 at 8:53 AM, KungFuPanda said:

Is it? Is it the same as withholding his records or declaring that he never met the graduation requirements? (It’s a real question. I really don’t know.) I can’t remember if I’ve ever shown anyone my diploma after graduation. I’m guessing the valedictorian has already secured their spot in college. Is it a real problem or a token smack down?

It's a real problem, a big deal, and completely ridiculous. 

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

It's a real problem, a big deal, and completely ridiculous. 

It IS ridiculous.  If they hadn't met the requirements to graduate, they wouldn't BE there. It's basically an extraneous ceremony.  I skipped my college ceremony, but I still graduated.