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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think anyone is deluded into thinking it means race issues stop. But if some jerk totals my car, I’m permitted restitution. If someone does something that directly results in the loss of my home and or life, my children have a right to demand restitution from that someone. 

The problem here is that nearly all those who were involved in either side are dead, most of their kids are elderly or dead, so the question is, how many generations away get to make a claim?  And how much of a claim is reasonable?

Keeping in mind that the Tulsa of today has had in influx of population since the 70s. Most people being asked to pay higher taxes, at a time when the entire world feels terribly cash strapped, to support reparation didn’t even have family that lived in Oklahoma back then.

So I don’t know. Maybe all the property stolen during the massacre should be bought by the city to become a beautiful park and community center/historical center to black history in Tulsa?  I’d be sorta okay with that. It’s not perfect but it’s tangible and benefits everyone. (Except the current users of those properties, who would still get something that would allow them to move their business successfully. 🥴)

Everyone is NOT dead. I can collect on debts owed to my parents as the executor of their estates. They were born in the 40s. My grandparents were born in the teens and 20s. I don’t know about you but GG, my kids’ great Grandma, didn’t leave us until 6 years ago and my peeps have fond memories of her. 
 

This past is not old, or long ago. It’s recent in their family histories and memories. So, yeah, these victims and their immediate descendants should be able to collect. Bruce’s Beach in CA is another prime example. I think unto the second generation (grandchildren) is perfectly reasonable. Would anyone suggest that the children/grandchildren of Holocaust survivors be denied their stolen works of art?

 Except, woah Nelly, the second generation of people who experienced these domestic thefts is still alive and kicking. That’s scary to some people. It’s hard to acknowledge just how recent this stuff really is. Personally, I feel like many want to deny and delay so that they can make these (it’s too long ago) claims more compelling.

Edited by Sneezyone
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7 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Everyone is NOT dead. I can collect on debts owed to my parents as the executor of their estates. They were born in the 40s. So too should these victims be able to collect. Bruce’s Beach in CA is another prime example. I think unto the second generation (grandchildren) is perfectly reasonable. Would anyone suggest that the children/grandchildren of Holocaust survivors be denied their stolen works of art? Except, woah Nelly, the second generation of people who experienced these domestic thefts is still alive and kicking. That’s scary to some people. It’s hard to acknowledge just how recent this stuff really is. Personally, I feel like many want to deny and delay so that they can make these (it’s too long ago) claims more compelling.

I did not say everyone was dead. I said *nearly all* the original participants were dead, many of their children are dead or elderly, so the biggest question of the restitution would be to grandchildren and the question becomes how will they prove their claims?

In your Holocaust example - most get nothing. It’s very difficult for them to prove their claim of right to ownership. Most can’t prove their claim bc the nature of these horrible events is it erases evidence they could use to prove their claims. My pointing out the difficulty here does not mean I’m against restitution. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I did not say everyone was dead. I said *nearly all* the original participants were dead, many of their children are dead or elderly, so the biggest question of the restitution would be to grandchildren and the question becomes how will they prove their claims?

In your Holocaust example - most get nothing. It’s very difficult for them to prove their claim of right to ownership. Most can’t prove their claim bc the nature of these horrible events is it erases evidence they could use to prove their claims. My pointing out the difficulty here does not mean I’m against restitution. 

I didn’t think you were against it but many, many, many are. There are or were property records for property owners in Tulsa at that time. There is census data from 1920 that includes addresses. There is DNA. Where records exist, people should be compensated. But even when records exist, the concept of restorative justice is poo-pooed. That’s not right. Many of these difficulties can be overcome.

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Just now, Sneezyone said:

I didn’t think you were against it but many, many, many are. There are or were property records for property owners there. There is census data from 1920. There is DNA. Where records exist, people should be compensated. But even when records exist, the concept of restorative justice is poo-pooed. That’s not right.

Ah. Yes well I’m not talking generalities. I’m talking Tulsa. Which has a history of crappy record keeping.  Thankfully the Catholic church isn’t too far from Greenwood. And by heaven, Catholics keep records of everything!! 😁 And a good priest there at the time was very helpful in saving lives by calling on his parish members to rush to bring aid and offer sanctuary.

But there are people who don’t think direct reparation to those who can prove family loss is okay. They think it should be that specific. So like if a black family moved to that area last year - should they get reparations? It’s a legit question being asked here. And from where will the funds to pay that reparation come from? Taxing Greenwood businesses? Just downtown? Tulsa City or Tulsa County?

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Ah. Yes well I’m not talking generalities. I’m talking Tulsa. Which has a history of crappy record keeping.  Thankfully the Catholic church isn’t too far from Greenwood. And by heaven, Catholics keep records of everything!! 😁 And a good priest there at the time was very helpful in saving lives by calling on his parish members to rush to bring aid and offer sanctuary.

But there are people who don’t think direct reparation to those who can prove family loss is okay. They think it should be that specific. So like if a black family moved to that area last year - should they get reparations? It’s a legit question being asked here. And from where will the funds to pay that reparation come from? Taxing Greenwood businesses? Just downtown? Tulsa City or Tulsa County?

Oklahoma isn’t the only source of records. Census data by census tract for those years is available on Ancestry right now and that includes OK. My great-great grandparents from Forman, Arkansas and Ada, OK are searchable. I don’t think recent residents should be compensated to the same degree, no. I do think we’re kidding ourselves tho if we don’t appreciate the extent to which wealth and wealth building opportunities were forcibly stripped and withheld from the LIVING descendants of slaves.

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1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Oklahoma isn’t the only source of records. Census data by census tract for those years is available on Ancestry right now. I don’t think recent residents should be compensated to the same degree, no. I do think we’re kidding ourselves tho if we don’t appreciate the extent to which wealth and wealth building opportunities were forcibly stripped and withheld from the LIVING descendants of slaves tho.

Since wealth tends to build with each generation, I have zero doubt that is true.  Never said otherwise.  So we agree. 

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1 minute ago, Murphy101 said:

Since wealth tends to build with each generation, I have zero doubt that is true.  Never said otherwise.  So we agree. 

Do you suppose it’s impossible to know who was displaced/killed in this event? Even as bodies may soon be exhumed and identified by DNA?

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Exposing my ignorance here: I did not know anything about it until the recent article in the New York Times. It’s a really excellent interactive reconstruction of the area destroyed if anyone is interested. 

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Posted (edited)

My daughter just finished 6th grade at public school and her Language Arts class was part of a state-wide thing learning about this, and they read a book about it.  I think they spent about a month on it.

I think in theory there would be overlap with the history class, but her history teacher was not very good last year.  Unknown if she is always this way or if it was coronavirus.  
 

She really liked her Language Arts teacher, though.  
 

So I have been hearing about it this year.  
 

Our local library has had a big display with available books and information since they opened back in person, too.  
 

https://www.amazon.com/Tulsa-Burning-Anna-Myers/dp/0802776965  
 

This is the book my daughter read.  She informs me it was written in 2002 and that her school’s librarian interviewed the author and then they watched the video in class, and my daughter liked the interview.

 

Edit:  anyway — I can say it seems to be talked about here this year.  This year is the first time I have not heard it called Race Riot, and I did not know it was the same event at first.  Embarrassing.  

 

Edited by Lecka
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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Do you suppose it’s impossible to know who was displaced/killed in this event? Even as bodies may soon be exhumed and identified by DNA?

I know it’s *possible* for them.  It all depends on what they find and who makes claims as to how much connection there can be proven. Also those bodies aren’t all the people who’s lives were destroyed that night.

I have no issue with people who can prove a claim getting restitution, but the question remains how far removed from the actual event can make a claim and what would restitution look like?

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Just now, Murphy101 said:

I know it’s *possible* for them.  It all depends on what they find and who makes claims as to how much connection there can be proven. Also those bodies aren’t all the people who’s lives were destroyed that night.

I have no issue with people who can prove a claim getting restitution, but the question remains how far removed from the actual event can make a claim and what would restitution look like?

Well, answer that question by putting yourself in those shoes... How would you want your descendants compensated if you lost a hotel, grocery store, home, car, life? Would you accept a community park or want something more tangible?

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2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Well, answer that question by putting yourself in those shoes... How would you want your descendants compensated if you lost a hotel, grocery store, home, car, life? Would you accept a community park or want something more tangible?

Ahhhh. But whose to say what I would want is just or reasonable?  I mean I’d take a hard look at the businessmen and their decedents who took over those properties and consider making them compensate more directly than demanding the entire current population do it. I think the Tulsa Tribune/World should compensate victims but heck it’s barely in business as it is. But you know what their building would make great for - a historical museum of black wall street. 

and speaking of compensating descendants... would each massacre/property theft victim get an allotment that would be divided among their descendants? Or a set amount to each claimant regardless?

If *I* was worth a million divided over my kids that’s very different from I am worth a million to each of my kids making a claim.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Ahhhh. But whose to say what I would want is just or reasonable?  I mean I’d take a hard look at the businessmen and their decedents who took over those properties and consider making them compensate more directly than demanding the entire current population do it. I think the Tulsa Tribune/World should compensate victims but heck it’s barely in business as it is. But you know what their building would make great for - a historical museum of black wall street. 

and speaking of compensating descendants... would each massacre/property theft victim get an allotment that would be divided among their descendants? Or a set amount to each claimant regardless?

If *I* was worth a million divided over my kids that’s very different from I am worth a million to each of my kids making a claim.

Umm, yeah, so that’s not how reparations work tho. We don’t ask the people in possession of stolen property if they want to give it back or think the valuation is fair, just, or reasonable. The loss is valued by actuaries and researchers. This very thing was done to administer the 9/11 victims compensation fund. The question is whether you think these descendants deserve the fair value of their lost inheritance? It’s not as tho we don’t have plenty of probate and estate lawyers who’ve dealt with distribution through generations. In the Greenwood case in particular, the evidence suggests municipal involvement in the crime. So, yeah, there is municipal liability.

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I was in KY, took AP US History, and I'm pretty sure they taught us about "race riots" that happened about that time (pre- Civil Rights Era) along with lynchings, and other injustices, but not about any specific one. 

The thing about reparations is that justice delayed is justice denied and injustice rewarded. And it's not a saying- it's like it's been the whole plan and we have no guarantee that our country won't allow future injustices against who knows what group in the future. It's like liability claims- a deterrent. And also compensating real victims for real harm. I don't think it matters that the actual perpetrators have died- because justice was not denied by them as much as by the state and the state is responsible. That's my idealistic opinion. My practical opinion is that I don't know how it would work. Should we also be offering reparations to all Native Americans, what about Vietnamese and Laotians, or Filipinos, or Mexicans....Maybe we should, but it would affect our wealth and I'm not sure our country is willing to offer reparations unless it's not painful. 

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15 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Umm, yeah, so that’s not how reparations work tho. We don’t ask the people in possession of stolen property if they want to give it back or think the valuation is fair, just, or reasonable. The loss is valued by actuaries and researchers. This very thing was done to administer the 9/11 victims compensation fund. The question is whether you think these descendants deserve the fair value of their lost inheritance? It’s not as tho we don’t have plenty of probate and estate lawyers who’ve dealt with distribution through generations. In the Greenwood case in particular, the evidence suggests municipal involvement in the crime. So, yeah, there is municipal liability.

Okay. 🤷‍♀️ I wasn’t suggesting *asking* those who benefited from the massacre anything. Has a fair value of the lost inheritance been ascertained? What about those who didn’t lose an inheritance? Those descendants of people who just had the bad luck to be caught on the street that night and murdered but didn’t own a business or home in the area?  What should those descendants get?

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You know, Murphy, it is actually possible to put a value on the cost of a human life. Actuaries do it all the time. We can assess how much each murdered person would have continued to earn in their lifetime, and put an actual sum on it.

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1 hour ago, bibiche said:

Here’s an article on reparations. I think it makes good points. It also addresses the “it’s too long ago” excuse.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1915185/how-germany-paid-reparations-for-the-holocaust/amp/

Thanks for the link.

A couple of quotes that stood out to me from the article:

Quote

In both the case of Germany and the US, reparations call on a nation divided—made up of citizens who mostly didn’t directly participate in the crime—to apologize and pay for it. In 1985, German president Richard von Weizsäcker made the case for intergenerational responsibility and solidarity in a powerful speech. “The vast majority of today’s population were either children then or had not been born,” he said. “But their forefathers have left them a grave legacy. All of us, whether guilty or not, whether old or young, must accept the past. We are all affected by its consequences and liable for it.”

 

Quote

But proponents of reparations in the US are less focused on the details than they are interested in securing political and societal support for the simple idea of debating the details. And with new tools like public genealogical databases, activists like Washington say the challenges underpinning such a program have never been more surmountable. All in all, he argues, “anybody who says it’s too hard or too complicated is just too damn lazy.”

 

Quote

Yet in spite of public opinion, Germany’s efforts at reconciliation didn’t stop at reparations. The country has engaged in vergangenheitsbewältigung—the process of “overcoming the past.” It erected monuments to victims of the Holocaust, the most famous of which lies at the heart of Berlin (and was only approved in 1999 after a lengthy and contentious debate.) It created the Foundation for Remembrance, Responsibility, and Future, an educational institution dedicated to promoting “the continuing political and moral responsibility of the state, the private sector, and society as a whole for Nazi injustice and towards the victims.”

“The German process has been long, continuous, difficult,” says Feldman. Similarly, “one can expect that in the American case.”

In their book From Here To Equality scholars William Darity and Kirsten Mullen outline a model for reparations they call “ARC.” Reparations, they argue, should accomplish three things: acknowledgement, restitution, and closure. America is still in the middle of the “A” stage: While it has mostly accepted “that there has been a wrong committed,” it has not yet agreed that “some form of repair” is owed to the victims.

 

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4 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

You know, Murphy, it is actually possible to put a value on the cost of a human life. Actuaries do it all the time. We can assess how much each murdered person would have continued to earn in their lifetime, and put an actual sum on it.

I know that. I’m asking has anyone done that? No one ever answers me. Screw it. Ima email the mayor and ask my questions. Again.  LOL

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I did not learn about this in school, but high school history is so rushed that there is no way for every possible important occurrence to be studied. US history could take all 4 years of HS and still not cover everything that is important.

I do think reparations might be fair, but I don’t have any idea how that would work. Could in be something like the current payments to Native Americans? Except not all tribes distribute the money the same way.

Also, we’re do “we” draw the line for reparations? The number of people injured or killed? Only race based attacks? There have been all kinds of horrible occurrences that deserve reparations. I don’t have any answers. This  comes to mind. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre 

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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

...I didn’t learn about Tulsa in school. I learned about it at home.

I expect that's true for a lot of black family homes. 

And there's an extent to which it's normal, that different communities tell different stories, emphasize different things, celebrate different heroes.

And then there are omissions so enormous that it definitely isn't normal.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

Okay. 🤷‍♀️ I wasn’t suggesting *asking* those who benefited from the massacre anything. Has a fair value of the lost inheritance been ascertained? What about those who didn’t lose an inheritance? Those descendants of people who just had the bad luck to be caught on the street that night and murdered but didn’t own a business or home in the area?  What should those descendants get?

The Google brought me this. You might call the commission first since it seems they have a study that outlines this. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/research/the-true-costs-of-the-tulsa-race-massacre-100-years-later/%3famp

Edited by Sneezyone
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I think it was referred to but not taught. I had the hazy idea that it happened at about the same time as Rodney King, which was similarly referred to but it teachers forgot that we were slightly too young to actually have first hand knowledge of. Both were generally mentioned as "race relations are an issue all around the country, not just here in the south."

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1 hour ago, Stacia said:

Thanks for the link.

A couple of quotes that stood out to me from the article:

 

 

 

I’m eager for the C stage. 
 

I acknowledge the wrong. 
I have no issue with reparations being made.  (It’s the how to do it that is tripping most here up IMO, though I can’t deny there are of course many who just haven’t gotten to the A eleven yet.)

C would be dandy.

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Posted (edited)

I first heard of it about this time last year.  I'm Canadian.

We didn't learn any American history really, except for bits that were also part of Canadian history (ie War of 1812, Seven Years War, Acadian deportation).  There was the option to take an American History course in my high school, but I was a math and science nerd and took only what history was compulsory.  Which was Canadian history up to about World War 1.  Repeated over and over through elementary, middle, and highschool.

ETA I also first heard of Juneteenth about this time last year.  Same "I'm Canadian" excuse.....

Edited by wathe
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I don't remember learning about it, but I don't remember much of the history I was taught in school at all.  Elementary was heavy on native Americans and colonial america.  I didn't have us history in junior high, and I only had AP US history in high school, which probably touched on it.  I happened to be very interested in WW2 at the time though, so that is mostly what I remember from AP.

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To answer the original question, I don't think I was aware of the massacre before this week.

I didn't attend high school in the US and never took a US history class, though I did self-study for and pass the AP U.S. History test.

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