Jump to content

Menu

Teens and Young Adults, “Life Experiences”


Quill
 Share

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well, until people start using the library as babysitters every single day and no parent can be found when the kid needs to be kicked out because they are destroying books or being rude to other patrons and such (a common occurrence at the local library a couple of rentals ago. )

Yeah, when I was a kid, they simply kicked those kids out.  No parent necessary.  If a kid can get there on his own, he can get home on his own.

[And yes, I know some parents work.  Mine did too.  But that's the parent's issue to figure out - not the library's.]

Edited by SKL
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Quill said:

I get that. I just find it pretty unfortunate when an older teen or twenty-something is ignorant about quite a lot of things. 

The problem is that most of us would probably define that list of “quite a lot of things” entirely differently from each other.

Many of the things my ds21 needs to know for his daily life are probably completely different from the things other people’s kids need to know for their daily lives. Our environment plays a big role in what we consider to be important to know. 

I’m sure a rural farmer’s family would consider my ds to be ignorant of many of the things that are second nature to them, but I hope they wouldn’t consider it “unfortunate” that ds doesn’t know those things. I would hope they would realize that he has no need to know those things — just as I would hope my ds would be understanding toward a kid who didn’t know a lot of the things that my ds takes for granted as being “normal” for us.

 

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

My kids are ignorant of some things on your list. That's not unfortunate; that's just different lives and opportunities.

There's plenty they aren't ignorant of, and I have absolute faith in their adult abilities to experience and learn from things that are new to them. 

Sorry, Quill, for being snippy! Your inclusion of 'ride horses' got under my skin. Only wealthy kids ride horses around here. 99% of young adults in my suburb are not water sporting or horse riding!

I really do think it's worth focusing on the more basic lacks. 

It’s my list, luv! My children had access to horses. It’s not that I would think it was bizarre if someone had no experience with horses, but I did have access to horses, so it’s on my list. 

Ok. Maybe the issue is this: I intentionally did not point out the handful of specific incidents that led to this post, because someone would surely be annoyed if I said those specific things. So, I stuck to something more general because actually, that is true; I do think it is important to expose kids to the variety of things as you can

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many, many of my kids’ experiences have come free or cheap, though often in exchange for some sort of labor, which we’ve been fortunate to provide. Other things have come from having wide social circles.

When I was a kid, I dabbled in water activities and a little horseback riding... because of who I knew. Definitely not because we had the funds for those sorts of things! They didn’t make me any better an adult though. It was just fun.

To me, the bottom line is that any young adult with curiosity, confidence, motivation, and the internet can discover pretty much anything they want. I mean, *I* use the internet every time I run into something I’m not familiar with. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

Many, many of my kids’ experiences have come free or cheap, though often in exchange for some sort of labor, which we’ve been fortunate to provide. Other things have come from having wide social circles.

When I was a kid, I dabbled in water activities and a little horseback riding... because of who I knew. Definitely not because we had the funds for those sorts of things! They didn’t make me any better an adult though. It was just fun.

To me, the bottom line is that any young adult with curiosity, confidence, motivation, and the internet can discover pretty much anything they want. I mean, *I* use the internet every time I run into something I’m not familiar with. 

This is so true. You don’t have to “experience” everything to be able to have some basic knowledge of how a lot of different things work.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

P.S. I grew up around cows, and I’m terrified of cows. No traumatic experience; I just find them scary, lol.

The cows have had only the nicest things to say about you. 😉 

  • Haha 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

It’s my list, luv! My children had access to horses. It’s not that I would think it was bizarre if someone had no experience with horses, but I did have access to horses, so it’s on my list. 

Ok. Maybe the issue is this: I intentionally did not point out the handful of specific incidents that led to this post, because someone would surely be annoyed if I said those specific things. So, I stuck to something more general because actually, that is true; I do think it is important to expose kids to the variety of things as you can

 

Ok, so it's not unfortunate if a kid has never been on a horse, lol. 

Idk. I just can't think about it like this. So many kids miss out on basics, I just can't even get to 'unfortunate' for extras. 

Some of the kids I work with will grow up into adults who never got taken to the park as kids ( or had other access to outdoor play). To me, that's unfortunate. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Sad 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ok, so it's not unfortunate if a kid has never been on a horse, lol. 

Idk. I just can't think about it like this. So many kids miss out on basics, I just can't even get to 'unfortunate' for extras. 

Some of the kids I work with will grow up into adults who never got taken to the park as kids ( or had other access to outdoor play). To me, that's unfortunate. 

 

I agree that is unfortunate. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

To me, the bottom line is that any young adult with curiosity, confidence, motivation, and the internet can discover pretty much anything they want. I mean, *I* use the internet every time I run into something I’m not familiar with. 

Yes, my kids have had so many new experiences once they left home (semi-rural area)  for college and after graduation.  Two of them have done so much more than I have or will do in my lifetime.  It's really amazing and impressive and I am so proud of them.  

 

 

1 minute ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

Some of the kids I work with will grow up into adults who never got taken to the park as kids ( or had other access to outdoor play). To me, that's unfortunate. 

 

It's so sad how some kids grow up.  😞 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually, this thread has been really helpful for me in terms of reflecting on why some kids desperately need public school. Because for all the faults of institutional learning, there is an attempt to compensate for basic social and cultural gaps. 

I taught some kindergartners how to pile up autumn leaves and jump in them the other day 🙂 They started off scared (!) and ended up laughing and having fun. We looked for the different colour leaves, and talked about the colours and seasons. We threw the leaves up in air just for fun, and I showed them how the leaves come off you ( they were scared of getting 'dirty'). These are not particularly deprived kids; they live in high rise, though, and spend a lot of free time at the mall or on an iPad. 

So yeah, I guess schools have their place. 

 

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

This is so true. You don’t have to “experience” everything to be able to have some basic knowledge of how a lot of different things work.

However, some people never think xyz experience is something folks just DO and won't try to have that experience if they haven't been exposed.

There are lots of free arts performances, but for folks never exposed to it, attending a concert or play feels like something that's only for other people. I was on a local arts organization,  and there is a big barrier in perceived access. It is not about money, it's about mindset. So, I want my kids to be exposed to museums and theaters etc just so it becomes ingrained " this is something people can do for enjoyment ".

Same with outdoor education. Big barriers not because it's expensive,  but because people feel insecure, afraid, unprepared. 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

However, some people never think xyz experience is something folks just DO and won't try to have that experience if they haven't been exposed.

There are lots of free arts performances, but for folks never exposed to it, attending a concert or play feels like something that's only for other people. I was on a local arts organization,  and there is a big barrier in perceived access. It is not about money, it's about mindset. So, I want my kids to be exposed to museums and theaters etc just so it becomes ingrained " this is something people can do for enjoyment ".

Same with outdoor education. Big barriers not because it's expensive,  but because people feel insecure, afraid, unprepared. 

 

So much this, but I think the answer  (at least partly) is outreach, rather than expecting individual parents to just 'make the effort'. It has to be something society makes an effort to extend in ways that reach those families who are most unsure about it. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

P.S. I grew up around cows, and I’m terrified of cows. No traumatic experience; I just find them scary, lol.

For me it's chickens. I know all about taking care of chickens. I would have to be very poor (or otherwise desperate) to have chickens of my own as an adult.

I think we were much less intentional in making sure our boys had various experiences than many of you. Mostly we just lived our normal lives, and we talked a lot about a wide variety of things, and we taught them how to use the internet. They've had no trouble making their way in the world so far.

Edited by Pawz4me
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Quill said:

I don’t really think it does that, though. I’m not saying they have to like all these experiences, or excel at them; just that they know what they are, or they can manage them without complete ignorance if they come up

Bolding mine.

Mm. Dd's English teacher checked that her students knew what a burr was, and Dd was about the only one who did. On one hand, who cares? This is not an important thing, especially to a bunch of posh suburb, city kids. On the other hand, it seemed like a strange thing not to know. I asked Dd what she didn't know from not being a posh city suburb native, but she said there wasn't really anything. I kind of wonder about reading comprehension. Are these books they inflict on the kids to widen their horizons into problems they assume the kids don't understand really hitting the spot? I tried to read a book from NZ a few weeks ago, but there was so much Maori vocabulary, I gave up on it. Is the lack of general knowledge causing the same problem for Dd's schoolmates and turning them off reading? Maybe I'm being hyperbolic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Bolding mine.

Mm. Dd's English teacher checked that her students knew what a burr was, and Dd was about the only one who did. On one hand, who cares? This is not an important thing, especially to a bunch of posh suburb, city kids. On the other hand, it seemed like a strange thing not to know. I asked Dd what she didn't know from not being a posh city suburb native, but she said there wasn't really anything. I kind of wonder about reading comprehension. Are these books they inflict on the kids to widen their horizons into problems they assume the kids don't understand really hitting the spot? I tried to read a book from NZ a few weeks ago, but there was so much Maori vocabulary, I gave up on it. Is the lack of general knowledge causing the same problem for Dd's schoolmates and turning them off reading? Maybe I'm being hyperbolic.

Not hyperbolic. In my experience. 

General knowledge ie background you bring to texts correlates with parents who talk to you, show you things, read you stuff. 

I'm stunned at how poor comprehension is in my city not-poor school. 

Forget burrs. Many kids at my school don't know the name for ants! Srsly, they call every insect a bee. And are terrified of all 'bees'. While calling bees 'flies'. I do a LOT of lunchtime nature education. 

  • Like 1
  • Confused 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I grew up very outdoorsy - basically on the farm, and we all played sports, hunted, fished, etc. My dad’s job was training other people’s horses (we couldn’t afford our own) but I was on horses pretty much from birth. But we couldn’t afford to do any traveling and we never went to museums or the theater. 

I made sure my dc went to museums, plays, musicals, and we have taken road trips all over. We did expose them to sports but dh and I weren’t really into it so neither were dc. They have no idea what the actual rules are for most sports and I don’t see that it’s affected them at all thus far at 19 and 21. The only truly intentional thing I can think we did to make sure they knew how was to have them fly alone to visit grandparents when they were teens. We mostly take road trips and I wanted to be sure they were comfortable flying on their own. They did fine. Most of the other stuff they figure out just going about life (animals, housework, new foods). 

Heck, I still come up against things even at my current age that I don’t know how to do but I can figure it out. I feel confident my dc will be able to do the same. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

A big priority for me is having kids that can run a household by the time they're in Jr. High. My kids master household chores by age 6 by working along side me and under my instruction. I grew up on a small hobby farm with a mother who trained me and my 3 older brothers to run a farm by Jr. High age.  It put us at a huge advantage over our most of our peers who weren't given responsibilities as a team that affected others, which set us up well to run out own households, contribute in the workforce, and my homeschool. It also normalized work and a sense of obligation to contribute to our community at home and in our area.

Mom made all of us learn to bake a pie of our choosing from scratch in our Jr. High years.  She wanted sons who could contribute to holiday meals/potlucks in a significant way.  I make mine help with meal planning, strategic shopping, food prep, cooking, bulk cooking, and food safety storage so they can do it all on their own.   They learn to bake too. 

We're foodies, so we were careful to keep their palettes active early on (I think giving young children bland food calibrates the palette for intolerance of variety and intensity) with food from all over the world including spicier foods. We don't teach, model, or put up with prejudice about food, and we never argue with their honest assessment of flavor.  If they tried it and don't like it, we don't argue with them, we accept their take on it as perfectly neutral and valid. 

Another was giving the kids practice managing money for real. After my girls get curvy (around 13) we put them on an allowance that covers what we contribute to their entertainment, clothing, toiletries, hair cuts and gifts for parties. We figured out what we pay toward that for the year, then divide by 24. (2 monthly payments paid on the 1st and the 16th of each month for a while, then a single monthly payment.) For the first 6 months we do a cash envelope system and if they handle that well we move them to a debt card and account linked to ours that we can monitor. They have to make that work by planning and weighing pros and cons. We let them make mistakes and don't bail them out when they do something dumb. Better to make them now and learn it on allowance while living at home.

I let my kids do the talking in restaurants and doctor's offices when they can utter complete sentences.  If, after they've spoken and are done, I need to add or clarify, I do. If I don't need to, I shut it.  They make their own purchases and if they have a question about something I direct them to the right person if they're not sure who that is. When they started cc as minors I made them research options, contact advisors,and gave them each a debt card for educational and driving expenses. I just signed whatever needed signing because they were underage. 

We took them everywhere with us, we let them talk to adults and kids they didn't know, and encouraged them to invite others into their lives. We've watched and read an incredibly wide range of media and books from other cultures, youngest is an international adoptee with ethnic cultural community from her country of origin we've been around regularly, and we specifically spent time around very different types of homeschoolers: polyamorists, practicing pagans, Muslims, homosexual kids/ parents, secular humanists, and very conservative Evangelicals. We don't have to agree with people to be around them and be friends with them.

We've done sports, marital arts, music, horseback riding, visual art, remote hiking, tent camping, pets, public libraries, ETA: museums, swimming in pools and bodies or water, live theater,  parks national and local, and such.  We've traveled all over the US on planes, our 2 opportunities to travel internationally were missed due to unexpected financial issues, so life happens. Youngest went with the homeschool group to practice public transit in this state; there wasn't much public transit in our previous state. We took the DC Metro. 

Edited by Homeschool Mom in AZ
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SKL said:

So I always found it strange to hear about library access being about whether parents did or didn't take kids there.  In every non-farm neighborhood I've been in, there's been a library within walking distance of the schools.  Do people not know kids can go there without parents?

Where the heck have you lived!?!? I have never, in my whole 48 years, lived in walking distance to a library, and I've lived in incredibly dense suburbs in AZ that have a public library built into the local high schools. The "local" schools were a 15 minute drive from home-assuming the kid attends the local school-often they attend a charter school or a different school farther away than that. The local school here is 8 miles W (13min. drive) and the public library (which is tiny and a joke) is 6 miles NW of here (another 13 minute drive.)  There are no sidewalks or bike lanes. I live in the suburbs outside Raleigh, so it's not Nowhere, USA.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Bolding mine.

Mm. Dd's English teacher checked that her students knew what a burr was, and Dd was about the only one who did. On one hand, who cares? This is not an important thing, especially to a bunch of posh suburb, city kids. On the other hand, it seemed like a strange thing not to know. I asked Dd what she didn't know from not being a posh city suburb native, but she said there wasn't really anything. I kind of wonder about reading comprehension. Are these books they inflict on the kids to widen their horizons into problems they assume the kids don't understand really hitting the spot? I tried to read a book from NZ a few weeks ago, but there was so much Maori vocabulary, I gave up on it. Is the lack of general knowledge causing the same problem for Dd's schoolmates and turning them off reading? Maybe I'm being hyperbolic.


We definitely know what burrs are, but I had to find an elevator and escalator for my rural kid to learn how to use. I thought if he ended up somewhere with one and didn’t know how to use them by a certain age it might be awkward to ask for assistance. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Only wealthy kids ride horses around here. 99% of young adults in my suburb are not water sporting or horse riding!

I really do think it's worth focusing on the more basic lacks. 

I agree.  I grew up in horse culture,took Western riding lessons,most of the neighborhood girls were really into rodeo lifestyle, and my mother boarded horses for the riding school down the road. I liked books more. People will get along just fine without that kind of exposure. If you're going to live in AZ you should learn to swim. There are a huge number of home and public pools there and it's what most people are doing in the summer. Living within an hour or two of the beach/lake/river like we do here in NC, you should learn to swim because that's a commonly done activity. There are places where that doesn't happen much and your time is better spent on other skill sets.

When we attended the Asian Bank of AZ cultural event that extended invitations to the Korean Adoptee Community and their families, there was an icebreaker game with a bingo chart of experiences that included "have ridden a horse." There were scores of people participating and daughter and I were the only ones there that could answer that one.  You had to find someone else who had that experience and get them to write their name on that square. Other experiences like "speaks 3 languages" had many other people signing their names, but certainly not us. Waaaaay more Asian immigrants speak 3 languages than have every ridden a horse.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Quill said:

It’s my list, luv! My children had access to horses. It’s not that I would think it was bizarre if someone had no experience with horses, but I did have access to horses, so it’s on my list. 

Ok. Maybe the issue is this: I intentionally did not point out the handful of specific incidents that led to this post, because someone would surely be annoyed if I said those specific things. So, I stuck to something more general because actually, that is true; I do think it is important to expose kids to the variety of things as you can

 

Ya know, my kids have never been crabbing and one of them has never been on a horse, (The one who has ridden found out the hard way that she is highly allergic to them!) No doubt my kids have had experiences that Quill's kids didn't because they live different lives. But the gist of the thing is - lots of different experiences are good, right? 

My parents were raised by immigrants and came of age during the Great Depression. They didn't expose their children to a lot of the things I take for granted for my  kids now, not just because of money but because they didn't think of them.  But they took us camping for 2 weeks every summer which many of my friends thought was the most amazing thing, because they had never camped.   Different times, different lives.  

This is not exactly related but kind of and it makes me laugh every time I think about it: One of my daughter's friends in high school had never seen a cheese grater until they were making mac and cheese at our house once. Her mother always bought pre-shredded cheese. OK, the ability to grate cheese is not an important life skill. But, it was just sort of astonishing to us as my kids have been grating cheese their entire lives. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Not hyperbolic. In my experience. 

General knowledge ie background you bring to texts correlates with parents who talk to you, show you things, read you stuff. 

I'm stunned at how poor comprehension is in my city not-poor school. 

Forget burrs. Many kids at my school don't know the name for ants! Srsly, they call every insect a bee. And are terrified of all 'bees'. While calling bees 'flies'. I do a LOT of lunchtime nature education. 

My kid used to call flies bees.  I have no idea where that came from.  I mean, granted, we don't see a lot of either here (not really sure why - there were lots more flies when I grew up).  It never seemed like something I'd need to teach, probably because it's something I knew just from living life as a kid.  Another thing I don't think they've ever seen is honeysuckle - which we had all over as a kid.  I was telling my kids about that recently.

On the other hand, unlike me as a kid, my kids have seen a wide variety of wildlife in the backyard.  Deer, coyote, fox, raccoon, skunk, ground hog, turkey, owl, woodpecker, not to mention various kinds of trees.  My kids know what a ravine is because we have one in our yard; I recall arguing with someone in grad school who refused to believe what the word "ravine" meant.  (Oh, and centipedes - they live in our house.  I never saw one as a kid.)

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

P.S. I grew up around cows, and I’m terrified of cows. No traumatic experience; I just find them scary, lol.

I grew up around our cow and went from not being afraid of them at all to afraid of them.  There I was, minding my own business, walking down the other side of the field and our cow, which up to that point had been docile, charged me. That was my first experience under extreme stress where everything around me slowed down and I ran as fast as I could (barefoot) to the barbed wire fence and without slowing down was able to zero in on the spaces between the barbs and placed my hands and feet there as I climbed up the 3 wires and launched myself over the side.

$@#$#&* cow! When it was time to shoot her I volunteered.  They wouldn't let me because they were a little worried I was too vengeful.

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, marbel said:

Ya know, my kids have never been crabbing and one of them has never been on a horse, (The one who has ridden found out the hard way that she is highly allergic to them!) No doubt my kids have had experiences that Quill's kids didn't because they live different lives. But the gist of the thing is - lots of different experiences are good, right? 

My parents were raised by immigrants and came of age during the Great Depression. They didn't expose their children to a lot of the things I take for granted for my  kids now, not just because of money but because they didn't think of them.  But they took us camping for 2 weeks every summer which many of my friends thought was the most amazing thing, because they had never camped.   Different times, different lives.  

This is not exactly related but kind of and it makes me laugh every time I think about it: One of my daughter's friends in high school had never seen a cheese grater until they were making mac and cheese at our house once. Her mother always bought pre-shredded cheese. OK, the ability to grate cheese is not an important life skill. But, it was just sort of astonishing to us as my kids have been grating cheese their entire lives. 

Yeah. Different ppl are different and grow up exposed to different things? 

I mean, my scared of nature school kids know a heck of a lot more than I do about Eid, and about what it's like speaking two languages, and visiting Grandma o/s for the summer...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

The problem is that most of us would probably define that list of “quite a lot of things” entirely differently from each other.

Many of the things my ds21 needs to know for his daily life are probably completely different from the things other people’s kids need to know for their daily lives. Our environment plays a big role in what we consider to be important to know. 

I’m sure a rural farmer’s family would consider my ds to be ignorant of many of the things that are second nature to them, but I hope they wouldn’t consider it “unfortunate” that ds doesn’t know those things. I would hope they would realize that he has no need to know those things — just as I would hope my ds would be understanding toward a kid who didn’t know a lot of the things that my ds takes for granted as being “normal” for us.

 

Yeah. My kids don't understand cities at all. They've never been on a city bus. Never flown in an airplane. Never been to the beach.

But...

They can milk a cow.

Catch a chicken and raise a garden.

They know how to avoid ticks and snakes. They know how to cut grass (mercy, they know how to cut grass. We cut acres of it.) They know how to tell if a calf is in distress and assist in a birth if needed. They also know how to tell which cow is in heat and who will calve in the next 3 days.

And fencing. Dang. We can all build fences.

They can ride lawn mowers and 4 wheelers. 

And they understand science, can play instruments. My ds will get his black belt in TKD this summer. 

I really think that the key is how one responds to others. Like a kids who has never had Japanese food can either awkwardly say "No, I don't think I would like that. Sounds gross." or "No, we never ate out much." and kill a conversation. Or they can say "I've never tried it, but I'm willing. Tell me about your favorite Japanese place and what is your favorite dish." 

We all have things we've never done. The key is to show interest in other people's lives and be excited and act  interested in their experiences so they can tell you about their lives. 

There are so many interesting people and things in this world. 

When I go to engineering conferences with my dh, I am definitely a fish out of water. But I never feel less than or awkward for it. I stay at home with my kids on the farm. I never finished college. I don't drink or party. I don't care for sports.

But people are interested in my life and I'm interested in theirs. No one feels sorry for me because I've never been on a cruise or traveled internationally. I bring other interesting things to the conversation, and I'm not embarrassed about the things I've never experienced. 

 

 

 

  • Like 14
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Where the heck have you lived!?!? I have never, in my whole 48 years, lived in walking distance to a library, and I've lived in incredibly dense suburbs in AZ that have a public library built into the local high schools. The "local" schools were a 15 minute drive from home-assuming the kid attends the local school-often they attend a charter school or a different school farther away than that. The local school here is 8 miles W (13min. drive) and the public library (which is tiny and a joke) is 6 miles NW of here (another 13 minute drive.)  There are no sidewalks or bike lanes. I live in the suburbs outside Raleigh, so it's not Nowhere, USA.

MY dream growing up was to live in a place like Ramona and Beezus Quimby where I could walk to the library. I'm jealous of @SKL for getting that in childhood. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

P.S. I grew up around cows, and I’m terrified of cows. No traumatic experience; I just find them scary, lol.

 

15 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I grew up around our cow and went from not being afraid of them at all to afraid of them.  There I was, minding my own business, walking down the other side of the field and our cow, which up to that point had been docile, charged me. That was my first experience under extreme stress where everything around me slowed down and I ran as fast as I could (barefoot) to the barbed wire fence and without slowing down was able to zero in on the spaces between the barbs and placed my hands and feet there as I climbed up the 3 wires and launched myself over the side.

$@#$#&* cow! When it was time to shoot her I volunteered.  They wouldn't let me because they were a little worried I was too vengeful.

I'm so sad y'all are scared of cows. They're my favorite animal. But they can be dangerous. We sell the crazies here. We totally cull based on temperament. 

No mean cows, no mean roosters.

 

BUH BYE!

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

MY dream growing up was to live in a place like Ramona and Beezus Quimby where I could walk to the library. I'm jealous of @SKL for getting that in childhood. 

 

8 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yeah. My kids don't understand cities at all. They've never been on a city bus. Never flown in an airplane. Never been to the beach.

But...

They can milk a cow.

Catch a chicken and raise a garden.

They know how to avoid ticks and snakes. They know how to cut grass (mercy, they know how to cut grass. We cut acres of it.) They know how to tell if a calf is in distress and assist in a birth if needed. They also know how to tell which cow is in heat and who will calve in the next 3 days.

And fencing. Dang. We can all build fences.

They can ride lawn mowers and 4 wheelers. 

And they understand science, can play instruments. My ds will get his black belt in TKD this summer. 

I really think that the key is how one responds to others. Like a kids who has never had Japanese food can either awkwardly say "No, I don't think I would like that. Sounds gross." or "No, we never ate out much." and kill a conversation. Or they can say "I've never tried it, but I'm willing. Tell me about your favorite Japanese place and what is your favorite dish." 

We all have things we've never done. The key is to show interest in other people's lives and be excited and act  interested in their experiences so they can tell you about their lives. 

There are so many interesting people and things in this world. 

When I go to engineering conferences with my dh, I am definitely a fish out of water. But I never feel less than or awkward for it. I stay at home with my kids on the farm. I never finished college. I don't drink or party. I don't care for sports.

But people are interested in my life and I'm interested in theirs. No one feels sorry for me because I've never been on a cruise or traveled internationally. I bring other interesting things to the conversation, and I'm not embarrassed about the things I've never experienced. 

 

 

 

And sometimes you have the most interesting conversations when you meet new people and find out you have some generally uncommon experience in common with them.  When I lived in dense suburbs I went to a St. Nicholas' feast at a friend's house who lives in almost the country (on horse property) and several of her neighbors were there.  The topic of gophers came up and I had grown up on a hobby farm that boarded horses. Several of us had hilarious gopher killing stories to tell. Best. dinner. party. ever.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ok, so it's not unfortunate if a kid has never been on a horse, lol. 

Idk. I just can't think about it like this. So many kids miss out on basics, I just can't even get to 'unfortunate' for extras. 

Some of the kids I work with will grow up into adults who never got taken to the park as kids ( or had other access to outdoor play). To me, that's unfortunate. 

 

This. I live about an hour from the ocean and less than that from the mountains, yet there are kids here who have never been to either. Fortunately there are programs working to change this.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

However, some people never think xyz experience is something folks just DO and won't try to have that experience if they haven't been exposed.

There are lots of free arts performances, but for folks never exposed to it, attending a concert or play feels like something that's only for other people. I was on a local arts organization,  and there is a big barrier in perceived access. It is not about money, it's about mindset. So, I want my kids to be exposed to museums and theaters etc just so it becomes ingrained " this is something people can do for enjoyment ".

Same with outdoor education. Big barriers not because it's expensive,  but because people feel insecure, afraid, unprepared. 

 

I agree!

I was also agreeing with Carrie when she said that young people today are able to learn about so many things through the internet, so if they need to learn about something new, they don’t necessarily have to actually live the full experience to get some basic knowledge. It makes it a lot easier for people to feel less awkward in new situations when they have learned at least a little bit about what to expect by researching it online first.

But I do think it’s great when we can expose kids and young adults (and older adults, too, for that matter) to new cultural experiences that they may not have had the opportunity to try, and maybe hadn’t previously even thought about trying. It can open a whole new world to them. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Where the heck have you lived!?!? I have never, in my whole 48 years, lived in walking distance to a library, and I've lived in incredibly dense suburbs in AZ that have a public library built into the local high schools. The "local" schools were a 15 minute drive from home-assuming the kid attends the local school-often they attend a charter school or a different school farther away than that. The local school here is 8 miles W (13min. drive) and the public library (which is tiny and a joke) is 6 miles NW of here (another 13 minute drive.)  There are no sidewalks or bike lanes. I live in the suburbs outside Raleigh, so it's not Nowhere, USA.

I wonder to where it is that there are so many libraries? Most places I’ve lived had only one or maybe one main one with a small second branch. We made it a point to live within walking distance of a library here, both when we rented and when we bought. But with only two libraries and a population of 350k+, most people do not live within walking distance. I grew up in a tiny Midwest town and spent tons of time by myself at the library. Often I was the only other person there besides the librarian.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

So much this, but I think the answer  (at least partly) is outreach, rather than expecting individual parents to just 'make the effort'. It has to be something society makes an effort to extend in ways that reach those families who are most unsure about it. 

 

Agree. However,  the question was what WE do in OUR parenting. That's what my answers refer to 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Not hyperbolic. In my experience. 

General knowledge ie background you bring to texts correlates with parents who talk to you, show you things, read you stuff. 

I'm stunned at how poor comprehension is in my city not-poor school. 

Forget burrs. Many kids at my school don't know the name for ants! Srsly, they call every insect a bee. And are terrified of all 'bees'. While calling bees 'flies'. I do a LOT of lunchtime nature education. 

Yup.  So much this.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Actually, this thread has been really helpful for me in terms of reflecting on why some kids desperately need public school. Because for all the faults of institutional learning, there is an attempt to compensate for basic social and cultural gaps. 

I taught some kindergartners how to pile up autumn leaves and jump in them the other day 🙂 They started off scared (!) and ended up laughing and having fun. We looked for the different colour leaves, and talked about the colours and seasons. We threw the leaves up in air just for fun, and I showed them how the leaves come off you ( they were scared of getting 'dirty'). These are not particularly deprived kids; they live in high rise, though, and spend a lot of free time at the mall or on an iPad. 

So yeah, I guess schools have their place. 

 

I’m just saying that I went to public school k-12, a supposedly really good one for my state at the time) and never did I ever:

play any kind of music or sing or drama (my school was very competitive in these areas so no chance for me)

play any kind of sport (my school district is HUGE aim competitive sports so I never had a chance)

It was a huge school system but they only need so many students for each position. And since it’s competitive, the students who had parents paying for it outside of school starting at age 5 were obviously going to win the slots. And they had to sign to pay for quite a bit in order to keep those slots. Away games cost money. Uniforms cost money. The fundraising never ended at our school. And if a kid couldn’t fundraise the money - they were really stressed out. It also meant commitments outside of the times that school buses picked up and dropped off. A kid without parents who could or would do that couldn’t be In extracurriculars.

We did have mandatory PE. I flunked out of it every time.  Because I lived with a life long heavy smoker and I had asthma and my parents never bought me an inhaler. Eventually I’d make enough of my own money to walk to the store and get it over the counter. (Back when those were an option.)  Eventually I just started skipping PE and going to the school library instead (back when school had those) and I guess my PE teachers just stopped caring if I showed up. I don’t remember anyone saying anything to me. 

To this day I have never attended a football game. And I attended a concert for the first time about 10 years ago.

But I’ve done other cool stuff and don’t feel particularly deprived so 🤷‍♀️😁

My dream public education would mandate swimming proficiency, at least 2 languages other than English by graduation and start in K5, would have a barn, a garden, a nursing home, an art studio and a craftsmans wing.

That ain’t gonna happen. So. Guess I’ll keep homeschooling. LOL

  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m just saying that I went to public school k-12, a supposedly really good one for my state at the time) and never did I ever:

play any kind of music or sing or drama (my school was very competitive in these areas so no chance for me)

play any kind of sport (my school district is HUGE aim competitive sports so I never had a chance)

It was a huge school system but they only need so many students for each position. And since it’s competitive, the students who had parents paying for it outside of school starting at age 5 were obviously going to win the slots. And they had to sign to pay for quite a bit in order to keep those slots. Away games cost money. Uniforms cost money. The fundraising never ended at our school. And if a kid couldn’t fundraise the money - they were really stressed out. It also meant commitments outside of the times that school buses picked up and dropped off. A kid without parents who could or would do that couldn’t be In extracurriculars.

We did have mandatory PE. I flunked out of it every time.  Because I lived with a life long heavy smoker and I had asthma and my parents never bought me an inhaler. Eventually I’d make enough of my own money to walk to the store and get it over the counter. (Back when those were an option.)  Eventually I just started skipping PE and going to the school library instead (back when school had those) and I guess my PE teachers just stopped caring if I showed up. I don’t remember anyone saying anything to me. 

To this day I have never attended a football game. And I attended a concert for the first time about 10 years ago.

But I’ve done other cool stuff and don’t feel particularly deprived so 🤷‍♀️😁

My dream public education would mandate swimming proficiency, at least 2 languages other than English by graduation and start in K5, would have a barn, a garden, a nursing home, an art studio and a craftsmans wing.

That ain’t gonna happen. So. Guess I’ll keep homeschooling. LOL

I think it’s very sad that such public schools exist. I believe that if taxpayers are paying for it, everyone should have a chance to participate at some level in all ECs. I grew up in a small, rural Midwestern district and everyone was required to take music class through eighth grade, so we all were in concerts from grades 1 through 8. Band started in third grade and instruments were provided for those who could not buy them and private lessons were offered year round, including during the summer. There were no tryouts for high school choir or band, they were just classes you signed up for. 

In middle school, if you wanted to be in sports, you just signed up for sports PE rather than regular PE, there were no tryouts or after school practices. In high school, everyone who wanted a spot could be on the team, even if you didn’t necessarily get one of the new uniforms or play on the varsity. About a quarter of my high school participated in track and cross country. Sports were huge in my high school and  it was incredibly rare for someone to not be on at least one sports team and we regularly won conference and state championships. (One interesting story related to that is that the only person I knew from my high school to get an appointment to one of the military academies was also one of the very few people I knew who didn’t do any high school sports. Not surprisingly, she left after one year). I don’t recall a single sports fundraiser outside of concession stands at games. But we also had just basic gear. For track and cross country we just had a huge box of old cleats and you would try to find some them fit, for example. No one had their own. And not everyone had the same warm ups and for the JV, not everyone even had the same uniform.
 

There were buses provided for everything. Even though I lived in a town 11 miles away from my high school, my parents never had to drive me to any practices, concerts, games, etc and very few students had cars. There were buses for every sports practice, play practice, to and from games (both home and away), etc. There were even buses to take spectators to games because the athletes just stayed after school. One summer there were only two of us from my town who played softball and as I was 18 (we could play five seasons including the summer after graduation), they paid me to take us to and from all practices and to meet the bus for games.

Personally, unless all students who want to are able to participate at some level, I don’t think an extracurricular should be offered in a public school.

As for the OP question, I guess I was lucky to have a confident, outgoing, relatively fearless child who threw himself into life and we just involved him with all parts of our lives, including regularly going to work with us and volunteering with us. He wanted to learn to do things on his own and help around the house and was a foodie from birth.  He started flying by himself when he was eight and was going to dentist appointments alone and teaching adult and teen classes in karate and TV production by thirteen. He’s been extensively involved with solo volunteer work by choice since age thirteen. If anything, he exposed me to new things and forced me to be more comfortable talking to strangers and being in new situations and even trying new food. He was born when we lived in university international family housing with people from all over the world, so he was exposed to lots of different cultures from birth. Our friend group was very diverse when he was growing up and he has chosen the same as a young adult.

The only thing I recall us very consciously doing was making him watch Star Wars. I don’t recall why he was resistant, but he was. We raised him without TV, as my husband had been, but my husband thought he should be exposed to Star Wars for the sake of cultural literacy. He not unexpectedly loved it. He did however, hold out for a long time before agreeing to see any of the Harry Potter movies because he thought they would ruin the books for him. Oh and I guess we did force him to take swim lessons. He was a super skinny kid just like my husband and I had been and generally disliked the cold lessons when he had no body fat for warmth or floating, just as we both had. But he did end up surpassing both of us once we found some teachers he liked.

Edited by Frances
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting! I'd flip the idea around and think in terms of access. What do my kids have access to, and what barriers to access do they have? 

Often the barriers to access might be money, distance, or parental interest. Could also be time. There isn't enough time to experience literally everything. It can sometimes be the child's special needs, meaning a certain experience is too challenging. 

I feel fortunate my kids have close access to nature, due to where we live. I would like them to have more opportunities to be part of a team project (apart from basic school stuff), like a big musical or play - I remember that being so much fun as a kid. I'll have to look at what possibilities there are out there, but there are definite barriers (we are in a small rural area/money/time). 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Unfortunate because they have been so sheltered or isolated?

 

Or unfortunate because you wish everyone could have such awesome experiences?

The former. A lot of the experiences I’m thinking of are not necessarily “awesome”. They just help someone relate in many different settings or situations. 

Here’s a silly example: there was once some dumb tv show where a “Supernanny-type” person, only with health, had the family shop for healthy foods. At one point, the mom is looking for cucumbers and she’s calling them “those long things.” So this is an adult with no experience with different vegetables and doesn’t (supposedly) know the word for cucumbers. Do I think having identified a cucumber is an awesome experience? No. But do I pretty much expect adults who have lived in the US to know what a cucumber is? Yes! 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I'm not sure I was intentional in any of these things except for basic living skills - cooking, cleaning, basic yard chores, basic auto maintenance (yes to paying attention but also we taught them how to change oil, check air pressure, change wiper blades, change/rotate tires, etc), shopping, when you need something vs. just want something, comparison shopping, research before purchase, research everything. The being comfortable around animals wasn't on my radar at all - due to allergies in the family, we never had a pet for very long. But my kids did have friends and relatives with pets that they visited, and we talked about safety when outside around various pets. I tried to teach my kids to listen to their guts, try to figure out why they were suspicious in some situations/about certain people (which included me trying to list reasons why I thought something/someone was iffy - but being honest, that I couldn't always be sure, but I would listen to my gut anyway and do what I could to be safe).  

I'm going to say I just tried to give them the thinking skills and taught resources to handle whatever life throws their way.  One, who had only been on USA-only flights, went on a study abroad trip the summer after her freshman year (2 countries with stops in others) and did fine. The next summer, she and three friends totally booked an international flight and all the other associated stuff - again totally did fine. Did I cheat her by not preparing her for this by not taking her on international flights when she was younger? I don't think so. My goal was to raise a competent, thinking, capable, independent adult, and I think I succeeded. 

I think it is great to intentionally prepare your kids for specific things, but I think everyone tries to prepare their children to handle whatever life sends them. And I'm pretty certain that I have no idea what totally awaits them. 

ETA: My DH just reminded me that we did intentionally expose them to Star Trek - both the original series and NG. Mostly because a lot of these episodes give rise to discussions on great topics but also to help them see some out of the box thinking. Plus we love ST. 

 

Edited by Bambam
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Quill said:

The former. A lot of the experiences I’m thinking of are not necessarily “awesome”. They just help someone relate in many different settings or situations. 

Here’s a silly example: there was once some dumb tv show where a “Supernanny-type” person, only with health, had the family shop for healthy foods. At one point, the mom is looking for cucumbers and she’s calling them “those long things.” So this is an adult with no experience with different vegetables and doesn’t (supposedly) know the word for cucumbers. Do I think having identified a cucumber is an awesome experience? No. But do I pretty much expect adults who have lived in the US to know what a cucumber is? Yes! 

I don’t remember what it was that I was watching years ago, but it had inner city kids learning what basic fruits and vegetables looked like.  Their (lack of) experience came from their environment, not from middle class parents forgetting to teach them things.

My daughter participated in Envirothon. On a county level, the teams’ experiences were pretty much on even playing ground. When they got to states, they competed with teams who studied for this thing the way some kids dedicate themselves to getting admitted to Ivy League colleges, and with teams who had, as we learned in conversation, never seen a cow in person. (Why do I feel like everything’s about cows right now?!?). They were amazed and had their bus pull over to look at the cows on their drive to the competition site.  All of their studying came from inside the classroom because, according to their advisor, the local parks weren’t even safe enough for doing outdoorsy things.  Their school did as much as they could for these kids with the tools they had.

So our team donated some supplies and shared some online resources for future study.  It was just as much of a culture shock for our kids to learn a new example of disparities in our society as it was for those kids to see stupid cows. And great practice in sharing and helping instead of disparaging others.

If I were to prioritize my kids’ experiences, that would be close to the top.

  • Like 4
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, Quill said:

Do I think having identified a cucumber is an awesome experience? No. But do I pretty much expect adults who have lived in the US to know what a cucumber is? Yes! 

I've had grocery store cashiers ask me what some basic vegetables are (for the purpose of looking up the code if there is no sticker on it). I would have expected the store to train them in those things. 

There are some things I find surprising that people don't know/recognize - I'm talking about people who are not new to the US. In the grocery store example, it makes me think about "food deserts" where people do not have access to even a basic grocery store. 

Re: libraries -  our town library is across the street from the high school. One day I was standing in line behind a mom and her daughter/student at the school; they were asking for help finding a particular book. I happen to be slightly acquainted with them and know they have lived in this area all their lives. It was clear that neither of them had ever been in the library before and did not have any idea how the library operates. The librarian told them the book was available at another branch and she could help them request it (once they got a library card). The mom was a little upset and said she could not drive to other libraries looking for it. The librarian explained that she could have the book delivered right there in a few days. Both mom and daughter were amazed that this was a thing. I was amazed that they had both literally gone to high school across the street from this library and they had never set foot in it.  Shocking that the school didn't have classes marching over there for an intro to the library and how to use it. 

Edited by marbel
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I’m just saying that I went to public school k-12, a supposedly really good one for my state at the time) and never did I ever:

play any kind of music or sing or drama (my school was very competitive in these areas so no chance for me)

play any kind of sport (my school district is HUGE aim competitive sports so I never had a chance)

It was a huge school system but they only need so many students for each position. And since it’s competitive, the students who had parents paying for it outside of school starting at age 5 were obviously going to win the slots. And they had to sign to pay for quite a bit in order to keep those slots. Away games cost money. Uniforms cost money. The fundraising never ended at our school. And if a kid couldn’t fundraise the money - they were really stressed out. It also meant commitments outside of the times that school buses picked up and dropped off. A kid without parents who could or would do that couldn’t be In extracurriculars.

We did have mandatory PE. I flunked out of it every time.  Because I lived with a life long heavy smoker and I had asthma and my parents never bought me an inhaler. Eventually I’d make enough of my own money to walk to the store and get it over the counter. (Back when those were an option.)  Eventually I just started skipping PE and going to the school library instead (back when school had those) and I guess my PE teachers just stopped caring if I showed up. I don’t remember anyone saying anything to me. 

To this day I have never attended a football game. And I attended a concert for the first time about 10 years ago.

But I’ve done other cool stuff and don’t feel particularly deprived so 🤷‍♀️😁

My dream public education would mandate swimming proficiency, at least 2 languages other than English by graduation and start in K5, would have a barn, a garden, a nursing home, an art studio and a craftsmans wing.

That ain’t gonna happen. So. Guess I’ll keep homeschooling. LOL

I go to a street corner every year (except last year when it was online) for a music in schools charity started by a local blues musician.  

I also contribute to scholarships for space camp,  outdoor camp, and generally try to help with giving to help children have more experiences.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can tell you that one important thing dh and I have learned as adults  was start of hunting season and NASCAR races and availability of hotel rooms or clogged driving routes.  WE solved the issue by always getting accommodations  online and early and checking out Google Maps to see if there  is anything in our way that may cause travel issues---- giant concerts can do the same thing.

One tthing I have tried to teach my children is to be very weather aware and take responsibility for keeping yourself safe.  That was very well illustrated to us numerous times with different weather issues.  The couple who decided to drive in a desert wash without checking for thunderstorms-- they ended up being skeletons in  the car.    All the tourists who come to the Southwest and decide that hiking without water or hardly any water in the midday is a great idea.  The duck boat disaster in that Missouri Lake where  so many died--- you can't depend on the operators of an attraction to keep you safe= make your own choices. And on and on and on,.  

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I can say, without reading the entire thread, that there is a lot on Quill's original list that I did not know how to do.  Some of it (boating, for instance) I only knew because my boyfriend's family spent time fishing on a boat and took me along.  We didn't have metro or other public transportation in our area growing up, and we never flew anywhere.  So yes, it was a little intimidating to do some new things when I was in college and as a newlywed, but I learned.  Actually, moving nine hours from home to a major city when I was a newlywed and fresh out of college was probably really fantastic for me, because I suddenly had to learn a lot of new things.  I'd never had a reason to parallel park before, for instance, and my interstate highway driving experience was very limited, but I became proficient at those things quickly.  And nowadays, kids can look up so much on the internet, ask a wider range of people for advice, etc. 

Edited by happypamama
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I wanted my kids to have done things like go to live performances, museums, use the library (talk to librarians and other staff), and understand other community services and activities such as the post office so they would be able to partake in them. I also wanted to see things like giving money to charity and donating things to people in need. Also have some fun experiences like seeing a movie in the theatre when they were little, going bowling, and other such fun things. I also took them to local college campuses such as for summer camps. I think this helps them get used to how they work, so they can see themselves there. 

Edited by stripe
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

I go to a street corner every year (except last year when it was online) for a music in schools charity started by a local blues musician.  

I also contribute to scholarships for space camp,  outdoor camp, and generally try to help with giving to help children have more experiences.

Um. Okay? I think that’s great. My post wasn’t to whine that no one cared about me or to make anyone feel guilty that they should do something. It was simply a factual hey going to public school does not mean every kid gets those things.  I think I would have enjoyed some of those things on a recreational basis. (I’m not a competitive person by nature and have a tremendous dislike for having a spotlight on me, tho I am not at all shy.)

My dh was from a better off family that actually cared a bit and he was in everything but says he doesn’t feel it made a huge difference in his life.

I try to have my kids exposed to lots of things as I can afford it. We don’t do competitive stuff bc I just can’t emotionally commit to that level of time and money for any sport.  But most of them have played some kind of instruments at least introductory for a time.  They’ve been to games and concerts. They’ve helped me take care of the occasional wild and domestic critter.  We talk religion and medicine and politics daily.  We do weird stuff. Like last week a new international grocery store opened so we stopped to see what they have that’s different from our usual Costco/winco/aldi. And tried (miserably 😂) to communicate with the Pakistani owners as to what might taste good to try for the first time and had an afternoon tea to try what we bought.  I know many people would never do that. Idk why. It’s not that big a deal. But the biggest impediment I see to a lot of young people is like I said before. They seem to be a very scared generation. Scared of debt. Scared of trying new things. Scared of going places. Scared of in person interactions. Scared of doing things wrong so just not doing things. It’s really frustrating to me. I don’t remember ever feeling that way generally. 🤷‍♀️ 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...