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Just now, Laura Corin said:

We don't have the system of non-driver cards from the DMV either. People use things like birth certificates and utility bills for name and address. No photos.

Specifically, though, unlike many other countries, there is no free national identification. There is only the passport. which most Americans do not have and costs $100 to obtain. And state cards, which are either ID only or for drivers, and cost ~$25. At the same time, many states are now requiring photo ID to vote. A birth certificate is often insufficient, because it has no photo, and many people, especially women, have changed their names.

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6 minutes ago, stripe said:

Specifically, though, unlike many other countries, there is no free national identification. There is only the passport. which most Americans do not have and costs $100 to obtain. And state cards, which are either ID only or for drivers, and cost ~$25. At the same time, many states are now requiring photo ID to vote. A birth certificate is often insufficient, because it has no photo, and many people, especially women, have changed their names.

Interesting though that an NRA membership card will count as voter ID in many places, but not a photo student ID issued by a college or university.  Tribal IDs were excluded in some places until recently. Boggles the mind.  

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[OT, but, when my husband and I last year launched our vegetable garden and chicken coop in response to COVID lockdown, I enthusiastically proposed Goats as well. 

Pam in CT:

Quote

We won't have to mow the lawn!!  Also, feta cheese, honey!! How will we eat all these beets and arugula without feta cheese?!

But he shut me right down.  Tom in CT:

Quote

sheep go to heaven; goats go to hell.

 

And I will note that a) we are Jewish-- as per the other thread -- we don't even HAVE aGood Place/Bad Place in our worldview; and b) in any event: he's not much of a text-reader.

But somewhere he'd heard the line as well.]

 

OK back to regular programming...

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2 hours ago, stripe said:

Specifically, though, unlike many other countries, there is no free national identification. There is only the passport. which most Americans do not have and costs $100 to obtain. And state cards, which are either ID only or for drivers, and cost ~$25. At the same time, many states are now requiring photo ID to vote. A birth certificate is often insufficient, because it has no photo, and many people, especially women, have changed their names.

Birth certificates also cost anywhere from $5.00-30.00 depending on the state. If you were born in a state different from your current place of residence, they can be hard to get.

A state ID requires the birth certificate plus other proof of residence, and then costs $30 in many states.

IMO, voter ID requirements are unconstitutional because they are a poll tax. It requires citizens to pay money in order to vote. It requires the cost of transportation and potential.of lost wages to go get. Some places are many  hours long wait at the Secretary of States office. Low income folks are usually working jobs that do not come with paid vacation days. Poll taxes were eventually deemed wrong. Instituting them today is shockingly wrong unless ID is going to be free and easy to acquire by all citizens. I estimate that in some states, between wages, transportation, and cost of documentation a state ID can cost upwards of $150 and that is no small sum to low wage workers. Just one more way the wealthy elite try to keep citizens from voting.

It is a poll tax, and it should be called that. Possibly if the terminology around it changed, more folks would be up in arms about it. 

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re costs associated with obtaining voter ID

24 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Birth certificates also cost anywhere from $5.00-30.00 depending on the state. If you were born in a state different from your current place of residence, they can be hard to get.

A state ID requires the birth certificate plus other proof of residence, and then costs $30 in many states.

IMO, voter ID requirements are unconstitutional because they are a poll tax. It requires citizens to pay money in order to vote. It requires the cost of transportation and potential.of lost wages to go get. Some places are many  hours long wait at the Secretary of States office. Low income folks are usually working jobs that do not come with paid vacation days. Poll taxes were eventually deemed wrong. Instituting them today is shockingly wrong unless ID is going to be free and easy to acquire by all citizens. I estimate that in some states, between wages, transportation, and cost of documentation a state ID can cost upwards of $150 and that is no small sum to low wage workers. Just one more way the wealthy elite try to keep citizens from voting.

It is a poll tax, and it should be called that. Possibly if the terminology around it changed, more folks would be up in arms about it. 

Sometimes I think that the resolution to the political push-pull of both the calls from One Side for tighter voter ID, and the calls from the Other Side for greater vetting around gun safety, is to require exactly the same thing in order to exercise EITHER constitutionally-entrenched right. 

Proof of  eligibility to exercise the right?  What's good for one, is good for the other.

Been convicted of a felony?  If you lose one, you lose the other.

Been convicted of fraudulently exercising one? You're suspended from exercising either.

Name change?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Changed address?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Want to exercise either right on a particular day?  If you're required to carry/produce on request the ID to exercise one of the rights, you're required to carry/produce on request the ID for the other.

 

It wouldn't solve ALL possible issues or complaints.  But it would go a long way to get both Sides to recognize the tradeoffs and costs of various proposed efforts to limit the rights of others.

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I didn't take my husband's name when I got married. I had a career and it seemed easier to keep the same name. I finally changed my name about 3 years ago. I wanted to have the same name as DD because that seemed simpler. Plus, keeping my maiden name was seen as suspicious in our circles. 

What a PITA it has been. I didn't intend to change it at work but they had to change my name because I had a new SS card. I still haven't changed it with one of our banks because they claim to need a copy of our marriage certificate. I even had to send a copy of our marriage certificate to Southwest so they could update the name on my Rapid Rewards account. Otherwise I wouldn't receive credit when I flew Southwest. 

I wish I'd left it alone and kept my maiden name. Part of what made it difficult is that there are state laws about a name change after marriage but I changed my name ten years later. I had to take day off work to go to Social Security in person. Then I had to take time off to go to the DMV to get a new license. Luckily in this state, you can update your voter registration at the DMV so I didn't need to visit a 3rd office. 

It gave me an appreciation for all of the bureaucratic stuff that people need to deal with to vote. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re costs associated with obtaining voter ID

Sometimes I think that the resolution to the political push-pull of both the calls from One Side for tighter voter ID, and the calls from the Other Side for greater vetting around gun safety, is to require exactly the same thing in order to exercise EITHER constitutionally-entrenched right. 

Proof of  eligibility to exercise the right?  What's good for one, is good for the other.

Been convicted of a felony?  If you lose one, you lose the other.

Been convicted of fraudulently exercising one? You're suspended from exercising either.

Name change?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Changed address?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Want to exercise either right on a particular day?  If you're required to carry/produce on request the ID to exercise one of the rights, you're required to carry/produce on request the ID for the other.

 

It wouldn't solve ALL possible issues or complaints.  But it would go a long way to get both Sides to recognize the tradeoffs and costs of various proposed efforts to limit the rights of others.

Agreed.

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8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I didn't take my husband's name when I got married. I had a career and it seemed easier to keep the same name. I finally changed my name about 3 years ago. I wanted to have the same name as DD because that seemed simpler. Plus, keeping my maiden name was seen as suspicious in our circles. 

What a PITA it has been. I didn't intend to change it at work but they had to change my name because I had a new SS card. I still haven't changed it with one of our banks because they claim to need a copy of our marriage certificate. I even had to send a copy of our marriage certificate to Southwest so they could update the name on my Rapid Rewards account. Otherwise I wouldn't receive credit when I flew Southwest. 

I wish I'd left it alone and kept my maiden name. Part of what made it difficult is that there are state laws about a name change after marriage but I changed my name ten years later. I had to take day off work to go to Social Security in person. Then I had to take time off to go to the DMV to get a new license. Luckily in this state, you can update your voter registration at the DMV so I didn't need to visit a 3rd office. 

It gave me an appreciation for all of the bureaucratic stuff that people need to deal with to vote. 

 

It is nuts! Our dd opted not to change her name. She would have had all the usual stuff plus her paramedic license, and FEMA certs that would all have had to be changed simultaneously. Crazy!

I had to pay $100 to get my college diploma printed n my married name. I got married before graduation, and that is what the college charged for going into the registrars office, filling out the paperwork, and having them change it over in their files. Then I had trouble with the social security administration which caused trouble with our bank. I should have NOT changed my name. Another leftover of the patriarchy in which women are property with deeds. Ugh. And worse, in Michigan, if a woman gets divorced and had taken her ex husband's last name, she has to have his permission to change back to her married name!!!! So disgusting. My hair stylist had to fight big time with her lousy, cheating, no good ex to finally get permission to change back to her maiden name. Absolutely reprehensible.

Then add that name change to getting voting registration changes by the deadline. If the bureaucracy does not move efficiently, one could end up not being able to vote in the next election. So score another one for oppressing women's rights!

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38 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re costs associated with obtaining voter ID

Sometimes I think that the resolution to the political push-pull of both the calls from One Side for tighter voter ID, and the calls from the Other Side for greater vetting around gun safety, is to require exactly the same thing in order to exercise EITHER constitutionally-entrenched right. 

Proof of  eligibility to exercise the right?  What's good for one, is good for the other.

Been convicted of a felony?  If you lose one, you lose the other.

Been convicted of fraudulently exercising one? You're suspended from exercising either.

Name change?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Changed address?  If you're required to proactively update/amend the one, you're required to proactively update/amend the other.

Want to exercise either right on a particular day?  If you're required to carry/produce on request the ID to exercise one of the rights, you're required to carry/produce on request the ID for the other.

 

It wouldn't solve ALL possible issues or complaints.  But it would go a long way to get both Sides to recognize the tradeoffs and costs of various proposed efforts to limit the rights of others.

It's the political version of one kid cuts the sandwich, the other one gets to pick which half they want. 

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1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Birth certificates also cost anywhere from $5.00-30.00 depending on the state. If you were born in a state different from your current place of residence, they can be hard to get.

A state ID requires the birth certificate plus other proof of residence, and then costs $30 in many states.

IMO, voter ID requirements are unconstitutional because they are a poll tax. It requires citizens to pay money in order to vote. It requires the cost of transportation and potential.of lost wages to go get. Some places are many  hours long wait at the Secretary of States office. Low income folks are usually working jobs that do not come with paid vacation days. Poll taxes were eventually deemed wrong. Instituting them today is shockingly wrong unless ID is going to be free and easy to acquire by all citizens. I estimate that in some states, between wages, transportation, and cost of documentation a state ID can cost upwards of $150 and that is no small sum to low wage workers. Just one more way the wealthy elite try to keep citizens from voting.

It is a poll tax, and it should be called that. Possibly if the terminology around it changed, more folks would be up in arms about it. 

Nope, I completely disagree.

It’s not a poll tax, nor does it act as a poll tax.

in the US today, it is the rare person who can completely function without an ID that can be used for voter ID...

you need ID to work, to drive, to go to doctor, to buy certain things (alcohol, tobacco, certain drugs, firearms and ammunition, etc) to rent a car, hotel room, to cash a check...

and on and on and on...

The percentage of people in the US who do none of these things, who have no ID...and then have to procure an ID to vote...

that is what they need to do then. The validity and safety of each person’s vote is the key to fair elections.

 

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1 minute ago, pinball said:

Nope, I completely disagree.

It’s not a poll tax, nor does it act as a poll tax.

in the US today, it is the rare person who can completely function without an ID that can be used for voter ID...

you need ID to work, to drive, to go to doctor, to buy certain things (alcohol, tobacco, certain drugs, firearms and ammunition, etc) to rent a car, hotel room, to cash a check...

and on and on and on...

The percentage of people in the US who do none of these things, who have no ID...and then have to procure an ID to vote...

that is what they need to do then. The validity and safety of each person’s vote is the key to fair elections.

 

The examples you cite are privileges, not rights. Voting is a right. 

My grandmother was adopted under somewhat shady circumstances. No one really knows exactly what happened. She tried to get a passport in the 1990s and encountered all kinds of difficulties in proving her identity. I'm sure there are plenty of other adults who have the same issues. 

If you're going to add burdens to voting then you must be able to show that there is a benefit to the burden. But no one has been able to prove widespread fraud. Fraud exists and human errors. That's why every state has mandatory recounts if certain thresholds are met. Note all of the manual recounts that were done after the 2020 election showed minor changes in the vote counts. 

If you're going to make it difficult for someone to exercise their right as an American citizen, you must be able to prove that it's warranted and no has ever been able to do that. 

There is also the problem that the burden will fall primarily on those of a class that were prohibited from voting in the past. 

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4 minutes ago, pinball said:

Nope, I completely disagree.

It’s not a poll tax, nor does it act as a poll tax.

in the US today, it is the rare person who can completely function without an ID that can be used for voter ID...

you need ID to work, to drive, to go to doctor, to buy certain things (alcohol, tobacco, certain drugs, firearms and ammunition, etc) to rent a car, hotel room, to cash a check...

and on and on and on...

The percentage of people in the US who do none of these things, who have no ID...and then have to procure an ID to vote...

that is what they need to do then. The validity and safety of each person’s vote is the key to fair elections.

 

You are flat out wrong. Millions of people do not drive, and under current driver's license laws in many states, could not afford the driver's education plus the $60 driving test, plus the $30 written test and application. Plenty of jobs are contract pay only, cash or check, no ID required for employers that do not care about background checks. Plenty of local businesses do not do background checks on farm help, wait staff, custodial personnel, etc. The local trash collection company is hiring with no background checks, no IDs just come for the interview and get hired. If not driving, one doesn't need it. Plenty of disabled and elders no longer drive, their licenses are expired, they would have to be given funds and transportation to get a state ID. 

Here is an article on it. Enough millions of voters without IDs to be very concerned about the impact on citizens rights. https://checkyourfact.com/2018/12/02/fact-check-millions-government-photo-id/

It is a common assumption among the privileged that work good jobs that require IDs that everyone else must automatically have and need one in order to work. This so not true among low income and poor voters.

As for fair elections, just give me a break. Voter fraud has been proven time and time again to be so rare that it has no impact on elections. People keep beating that dead horse, but dead is dead. Come up with a different argument.

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1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

You are flat out wrong. Millions of people do not drive, and under current driver's license laws in many states, could not afford the driver's education plus the $60 driving test, plus the $30 written test and application. Plenty of jobs are contract pay only, cash or check, no ID required for employers that do not care about background checks. Plenty of local businesses do not do background checks on farm help, wait staff, custodial personnel, etc. The local trash collection company is hiring with no background checks, no IDs just come for the interview and get hired. If not driving, one doesn't need it. Plenty of disabled and elders no longer drive, their licenses are expired, they would have to be given funds and transportation to get a state ID. 

Here is an article on it. Enough millions of voters without IDs to be very concerned about the impact on citizens rights. https://checkyourfact.com/2018/12/02/fact-check-millions-government-photo-id/

It is a common assumption among the privileged that work good jobs that require IDs that everyone else must automatically have and need one in order to work. This so not true among low income and poor voters.

As for fair elections, just give me a break. Voter fraud has been proven time and time again to be so rare that it has no impact on elections. People keep beating that dead horse, but dead is dead. Come up with a different argument.

 

driving is not the only reason you need an ID in the US...I listed a few

elderly and disabled can, and need, and do have IDs.

take a disabled person to a doctor with no ID, who gets Medicaid or an elderly person to the doctor with no ID who get Medicare...and let me know how that works out.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

take a disabled person to a doctor with no ID, who gets Medicaid or an elderly person to the doctor with no ID who get Medicare...and let me know how that works out.

 

 

????

I take/have taken elderly folks on Medicare to the doctor dozens of times. My DH is on Medicare. No ID is ever needed. Not once do I remember a doctor's office asking for ID.

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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

????

I take/have taken elderly folks on Medicare to the doctor dozens of times. My DH is on Medicare. No ID is ever needed. Not once do I remember a doctor's office asking for ID.

My experiences are not the same

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11 minutes ago, pinball said:

 

driving is not the only reason you need an ID in the US...I listed a few

elderly and disabled can, and need, and do have IDs.

take a disabled person to a doctor with no ID, who gets Medicaid or an elderly person to the doctor with no ID who get Medicare...and let me know how that works out.

 

 

There are people - a not insignificant number - who live cash only, never go to the doctor, etc. Be blessed you don't live in that world. Jobs are cash under the table, babysitting, etc. No bank account. No medical care. Pay room rent with cash. 

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6 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

????

I take/have taken elderly folks on Medicare to the doctor dozens of times. My DH is on Medicare. No ID is ever needed. Not once do I remember a doctor's office asking for ID.

Don’t they ask for a photo ID and an insurance card when you’re a new patient? 

I don’t have to show ID when I go to one of the doctors in our healthcare system, but if I go to a new one, I have to show the IDs.

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6 minutes ago, pinball said:

My experiences are not the same

Which is exactly why all of us should avoid taking stances that would potentially deprive millions of people from a Constitutionally guaranteed right simply based on our own experiences.

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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Which is exactly why all of us should avoid taking stances that would potentially deprive millions of people from a Constitutionally guaranteed right simply based on our own experiences.

Was she doing that, though?

Believing that IDs should be required to vote doesn’t mean that she doesn’t also think that the necessary IDs should be free and easy to obtain.

I hope she will clarify.

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1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

Don’t they ask for a photo ID and an insurance card when you’re a new patient? 

I don’t have to show ID when I go to one of the doctors in our healthcare system, but if I go to a new one, I have to show the IDs.

Insurance card -- yes. It seems that most doctors ask for that nowadays if it's been more than a month or so since you were seen. But I don't recall anyone ever being asked for any other form of ID. But health care here is dominated (to put it mildly) by two huge systems. My guess is that most people who have regular health care needs have probably long been in both systems.

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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

Insurance card -- yes. It seems that most doctors ask for that nowadays if it's been more than a month or so since you were seen. But I don't recall anyone ever being asked for any other form of ID. But health care here is dominated (to put it mildly) by two huge systems. My guess is that most people who have regular health care needs have probably long been in both systems.

That’s how it is here, too. But when we first bought a house here, we always had to show a photo ID when we saw a doctor. Once we were in their systems for a little while, they stopped asking for the ID, and they don’t even bother asking for the insurance card most of the time, either. They usually ask if there have been any changes and when I say no, they don’t need the card.

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2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Was she doing that, though?

Believing that IDs should be required to vote doesn’t mean that she doesn’t also think that the necessary IDs should be free and easy to obtain.

I hope she will clarify.

I am fine with a no charge state ID for anyone, that can be used for voting as well as anything else that is needed.

 

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I have been asked to show ID (repeatedly) when taking my kids to the doctor’s. At some places both my driver’s license and our insurance card is scanned in every single time. I had a relative (now deceased) who had nothing at ALL with her name on it besides her Medicare card. She no longer drove, never left the country, had no credit cards, was no longer employed, not a student, etc.

As to ID, I don’t care if someone votes or drives or whatever. I think every citizen is entitled to a free photo ID. Want to drive? Get a driver’s license. Want to travel internationally? Get a passport. Want to get your government pension? They should have their number. But a way to prove one’s identity should be free. And it should be acceptable for voting, government services, and anything else someone needs to do with ID.  Don’t get me started on the use of social security cards as a substitute. This is just something that’s normal in almost every country on earth.

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16 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Don’t they ask for a photo ID and an insurance card when you’re a new patient? 

I don’t have to show ID when I go to one of the doctors in our healthcare system, but if I go to a new one, I have to show the IDs.

I have too.  Photo ID and insurance.  I once went to urgent care without my driver’s license and they wouldn’t see me because I had no photo ID

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13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Don’t they ask for a photo ID and an insurance card when you’re a new patient? 

I don’t have to show ID when I go to one of the doctors in our healthcare system, but if I go to a new one, I have to show the IDs.

The purpose of the ID is to validate the insurance card. So things are different for people without insurance. 

Also many people receive most of their healthcare services through the ER where they will ask for ID but will not turn away a patient for not having an ID. 

All of the things that we think of as easy to get, IDs, driver's licenses, checking accounts, etc all have a cost associated with them so requiring them to vote imposes a burden. That burden would be legitimate if there was evidence of significant voter fraud but there isn't. Pinball hasn't provided any evidence of significant voter fraud. She thinks that she people need ID to vote "just because." It's based on assumptions that *those people* out there are voting improperly. 

 

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6 minutes ago, stripe said:

I have been asked to show ID (repeatedly) when taking my kids to the doctor’s. At some places both my driver’s license and our insurance card is scanned in every single time. I had a relative (now deceased) who had nothing at ALL with her name on it besides her Medicare card. She no longer drove, never left the country, had no credit cards, was no longer employed, not a student, etc.

As to ID, I don’t care if someone votes or drives or whatever. I think every citizen is entitled to a free photo ID. Want to drive? Get a driver’s license. Want to travel internationally? Get a passport. Want to get your government pension? They should have their number. But a way to prove one’s identity should be free. And it should be acceptable for voting, government services, and anything else someone needs to do with ID.  Don’t get me started on the use of social security cards as a substitute. This is just something that’s normal in almost every country on earth.

I agree that everyone should be entitled to it but the problem will be documenting the identity to get the ID. 

There are many American citizens who do have ID. That sounds ridiculous to our normal middle class ears. How do they go to doctor, cash checks, whatever? 

Quote

For each of those categories, only certain documents are acceptable, such as a lease, a W-2 form or a paystub. For low-income or homeless people who’ve lost their identifying documents, such requirements create an insurmountable barrier, said Danielle Moise, a staff attorney with Bread for the City, a D.C.-based nonprofit that is working to help the homeless get ID. 

“It’s making it much more difficult for people to get an ID in the city, even if they’ve lived here all their lives,” Moise said. 

Without ID, Homeless Trapped in Vicious Cycle

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rights v privileges, eligibility v default, and where the burden of updating information lies

36 minutes ago, pinball said:

Nope, I completely disagree.

It’s not a poll tax, nor does it act as a poll tax.

in the US today, it is the rare person who can completely function without an ID that can be used for voter ID...

you need ID to work, to drive, to go to doctor, to buy certain things (alcohol, tobacco, certain drugs, firearms and ammunition, etc) to rent a car, hotel room, to cash a check...

and on and on and on...

The percentage of people in the US who do none of these things, who have no ID...and then have to procure an ID to vote...

that is what they need to do then. The validity and safety of each person’s vote is the key to fair elections.

 

You are right, of course, that we need to show some sort of documentation for all sorts of tasks of daily living.

@Ordinary Shoes is also, obviously, right that some activities are Constitutionally entrenched as *rights* while others, including every one in your list, are either privileges or purchases of goods or services.

Another issue, that to my mind really does get to the issue of real burden, that meaningfully gates access to the exercise of the right, is where and how documentation is updated, and what happens if it isn't.

  • If I move across town, I don't need to get a new identification to be able to continue to work (or change jobs), or buy tobacco or alcohol, or rent a car or hotel room, or cash a check.  Or, as it happens, to continue to own or carry, or purchase, a firearm. 
  • Even if I move across state lines, I still don't need to get a new identification to do any of those things.  I will, eventually, get a new drivers' license.  In my state, I have 60 days to do so, and even if I take longer than that it will not be prosecuted as *fraud.*
  • Even if I change my legal name, I will still be able to do all those things on the basis of my prior identification.

If I do move, I will, eventually, update my address for my credit cards -- a process that I can do without expense and without leaving my home.  If I change insurance providers, I will, eventually, get new proof-of-insurance cards mailed to me -- again without expense, again without leaving my home.

But in the meantime I can still do all the things you mention.

Which are, again, all privileges or purchases.... not Constitutionally entrenched rights.  It is only for voting that the burden is on the citizen to IMMEDIATELY update information... and also can only do so in person... during business hours... at limited locations... for a fee. 

(Extremely burdensome for seniors who don't drive and have moved to a different location, as well as folks with constrained schedules, constrained transport and constrained means.  And most states do NOT have a provision for same-day registration, which can fix some / not all of these issues.)

 

I do recognize the public interest in ensuring that voting is "well-regulated" so as to limit the exercise of the right to eligible citizens.  As there is, similarly, a public interest in ensuring that folks who have abused the right to bear arms do not continue to do so. Which is why I think adopting the same basic parameters for vetting eligibility upfront, and thereafter proving identity in the moment, and as an ongoing matter updating information on a timely basis, has a basic (not perfect) logic.

 

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5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

Ok, is that in the Bible? I'm on my first sip of coffee, but that seems legit. 

Actually....I'm being defensive because goats don't like me. They just don't. I can't say for sure how sheep feel about me, I haven't been around as many sheep, but goats don't like me. (my boss, a vet, after witnessing me around some, told me I'm better with predator species than prey species)

Yup.  It's well established in the Bible that God does not like goats.  The whole sheep on my right; goats on my left to depart from me?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pinball said:

Nope, I completely disagree.

It’s not a poll tax, nor does it act as a poll tax.

in the US today, it is the rare person who can completely function without an ID that can be used for voter ID...

you need ID to work, to drive, to go to doctor, to buy certain things (alcohol, tobacco, certain drugs, firearms and ammunition, etc) to rent a car, hotel room, to cash a check...

and on and on and on...

The percentage of people in the US who do none of these things, who have no ID...and then have to procure an ID to vote...

that is what they need to do then. The validity and safety of each person’s vote is the key to fair elections.

 

I know off the top of my head, a dozen people who do not have ANY form of photo ID and who have lived into their 70s just fine without one. 

Here is the story of a friend of mine's attempts at getting his mom a state photo ID:  

My mom is, I would say, fairly privileged in the grand scheme of things. A white woman who, for at least the last 20-30 years, hasn't had to worry about losing a home or being able to feed her family. Much of that time she lived right on a major bus route for what is a pretty decent transit system, in a middle-sized metropolitan area. She also didn't have any disabilities for much of that time.
 
She has never learned to drive, nor held a driver's license.
 
This never caused a hitch with voting because she was able to use other forms of ID, like a social security card or other local card with photo.
 
Back in the late 1990s she had cause to fly commercially for the first time. Dad took her to get a State ID for those purposes. They could not locate their marriage license, so the state wouldn't issue her an ID in her married name, since her birth certificate had her maiden name. The social security card wasn't enough proof of name change.
They started pursuing getting a copy of the marriage license but that was from another state and county, so it was taking a long time.
 
I did some digging and discovered that I could take her to the Post Office, she could apply for a passport, and if I signed something certifying that Jane Juchter was indeed Jane Doe, they'd waive the marriage license requirement. We had to rush the passport, but it got her on a flight.
 
As I reflected on that, I realized that I had to slip away from work to help her with the process. I was fortunate to be able to do so, to have a car, a job that would let me do that without loss of pay. Not everyone is so fortunate.
 
And yes, you can NOW apply for passports online, but you still have to go get a photo taken someplace or have the capability at home to print it out in the proper format on the proper paper. And HAVE internet.
 
Flash forward to the last few years. Since the passport is her ONLY form of government issued ID valid for flying, voting, and the like, we decided it was past due time to get that State ID.
 
So we assembled all the documents and drove to one of the centers. Mind you, this center wasn't on a bus route, so if I hadn't been visiting she'd have needed to Uber or something. Which fortunately she can afford. I believe it had limited Saturday hours which, assuming she'd been working a job that didn't cover Saturdays would have been great. But if she'd needed to work multiple jobs that covered M-Sa, that might have been an income issue.
 
We got there with all the paperwork which we researched on the internet (again, privileged to have internet and a printer), only to find out that her social security card would not be accepted because dad laminated them years ago. It had to be paper only.
 
Okay, easy fix. Let's go to the Social Security office in town (not every town has one, it was only open on weekdays). We assembled all the paperwork for a new card and headed down. Only to find out that the office was packed. We waited well over an hour, then she needed to go home, so we aborted that.
 
We have figured out how to get an appointment at that office now, but would still need to do that, get a new social security card, then get back to the State ID place, file all the paperwork, and then HOPEFULLY she'd have a second form of ID valid for voting.
 
We haven't done it yet because frankly that's a lot of work and as long as she keeps close track of the passport she should be okay.
 
And this is someone who doesn't have to work to keep food on the table or a roof over her head. Imagine if money were tight, you couldn't afford a car and/or Uber, had no computer at home, and taking time off from work meant losing money.
 
Yep. It's a breeze to get a State ID!
 
 
Edited by Terabith
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The other thing is...is someone without an acceptable ID (in the thirty-some states it is required, bc it is NOT required in all states...) gets to vote without the proper ID...

They can still vote by casting provisional ballots. Then, in some states, they needs to follow up in a specific way for it to count, but in others no follow up is needed.

every one can vote. The purpose of ID is not to prevent people from voting. 

 

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13 minutes ago, pinball said:

The other thing is...is someone without an acceptable ID (in the thirty-some states it is required, bc it is NOT required in all states...) gets to vote without the proper ID...

They can still vote by casting provisional ballots. Then, in some states, they needs to follow up in a specific way for it to count, but in others no follow up is needed.

every one can vote. The purpose of ID is not to prevent people from voting. 

 

Casting a provisional ballot is not "voting" if it is not counted. 

Provisional ballots are intended to protect voters from administrative errors, not ID requirements when they can't get an ID. 

 

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Posted (edited)

re provisional voting

19 minutes ago, pinball said:

The other thing is...is someone without an acceptable ID (in the thirty-some states it is required, bc it is NOT required in all states...) gets to vote without the proper ID...

They can still vote by casting provisional ballots. Then, in some states, they needs to follow up in a specific way for it to count, but in others no follow up is needed.

every one can vote. The purpose of ID is not to prevent people from voting. 

 

(I've worked polls for many years)

To cast a provisional vote requires that you stand in line once the regular way, are turned away by the regular poll worker like me to go to the polling place moderator where -- in crowded polling centers -- you stand in line again; then you fill out an affidavit, then fill out a ballot, then cast it into a different lockbox.  There is a real barrier in TIME (for voters trying to fit voting in before/after work, or with fussy toddlers in tow) and also -- I've definitely seen this -- in embarrassment/confusion.

And provisional ballots are, literally, not counted in most elections -- only if the number of votes in somebody's win margin is less than the number of provisional ballots known to be in the lockbox.

Finally, casting a provisional ballot in one election just means you'll still have the same issue in the next -- to vote the "standard" way you'll still need the "standard" ID.  It just kicks forward the burden in cost / time / complexity in exercising the right.  The burden is very much still there for the next time.

 

[Again: not arguing for a free-for-all.  I believe in, and work hard for, voter registration.  Just a consistent recognition that THIS constitutionally entrenched right is limited and costly and under real current hreat of even greater suppression, in a way that 2A rights are not.]

 

 

 

 

Edited by Pam in CT
polling place "moderator," not "monitor" (thank heavens...)
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On the ID thing....  I can 100% attest that it is NOT easy for some citizens to get photos IDs.  My elderly mother, who does not have a driver's license, needs a state ID or passport to fly to visit her other daughter and grandbabies .  I have been working on this for months.  I have spent hours, if not days, trying to do this and am still far from it.  She has dementia and long ago lost all of her important documents (birth certificate, marriage license, SS card).  So, I have applied, multiple times, to get a copy of her BC, from a different state for months now.  I pay $22 every time and lose the money because we are guessing on her father's middle name.  They keep the money and deny on each guess.  The exact names of each parent (including middle) and the city of birth (another guess) are required.  We know what his middle name is, just not how to spell it as there are multiple common ways to do so.  I had better luck with the marriage certificate.  Also from another state.  $30.  This is all BEFORE I must travel an entire day to get to her to physically take her to the SOS office to apply for the ID.  She has no one else to take her.  More money to travel and more money for the ID.

Yeah.  Totally "simple" and "easy" to get an ID.  She has help and we still might not be successful.  She voted for years without a photo ID.  She was even a poll worker.  She is white and "privileged" even.

No health care provider has required photo ID.  They may have asked but moved on when she said she didn't have one.

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Stories like that are not at all hard to find. Voter ID laws disproportionately affect the elderly, the poor, people of color, and women (since most women change their names when they get married). And, yeah, as mentioned, in the absence of any evidence that vote fraud is common, voter ID laws are a solution in search of a problem. 

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re unduly high burden of getting a voter ID

2 hours ago, skimomma said:

On the ID thing....  I can 100% attest that it is NOT easy for some citizens to get photos IDs.  My elderly mother, who does not have a driver's license, needs a state ID or passport to fly to visit her other daughter and grandbabies .  I have been working on this for months.  I have spent hours, if not days, trying to do this and am still far from it.  She has dementia and long ago lost all of her important documents (birth certificate, marriage license, SS card).  So, I have applied, multiple times, to get a copy of her BC, from a different state for months now.  I pay $22 every time and lose the money because we are guessing on her father's middle name.  They keep the money and deny on each guess.  The exact names of each parent (including middle) and the city of birth (another guess) are required.  We know what his middle name is, just not how to spell it as there are multiple common ways to do so.  I had better luck with the marriage certificate.  Also from another state.  $30.  This is all BEFORE I must travel an entire day to get to her to physically take her to the SOS office to apply for the ID.  She has no one else to take her.  More money to travel and more money for the ID.

Yeah.  Totally "simple" and "easy" to get an ID.  She has help and we still might not be successful.  She voted for years without a photo ID.  She was even a poll worker.  She is white and "privileged" even.

No health care provider has required photo ID.  They may have asked but moved on when she said she didn't have one.

That is unconscionable.

And... I (truly) don't mean to be flip.

Without knowing the state... would a gun permit be acceptable as ID?  Because if so, depending on the state, that might very well be the simplest solution to the problem.

 

{Which definitely speaks to the brokenness of our national and state policy. But sometimes what makes most sense at the micro level is to work within the reality you face.)

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3 hours ago, skimomma said:

On the ID thing....  I can 100% attest that it is NOT easy for some citizens to get photos IDs.  My elderly mother, who does not have a driver's license, needs a state ID or passport to fly to visit her other daughter and grandbabies .  I have been working on this for months.  I have spent hours, if not days, trying to do this and am still far from it.  She has dementia and long ago lost all of her important documents (birth certificate, marriage license, SS card).  So, I have applied, multiple times, to get a copy of her BC, from a different state for months now.  I pay $22 every time and lose the money because we are guessing on her father's middle name.  They keep the money and deny on each guess.  The exact names of each parent (including middle) and the city of birth (another guess) are required.  We know what his middle name is, just not how to spell it as there are multiple common ways to do so.  I had better luck with the marriage certificate.  Also from another state.  $30.  This is all BEFORE I must travel an entire day to get to her to physically take her to the SOS office to apply for the ID.  She has no one else to take her.  More money to travel and more money for the ID.

Yeah.  Totally "simple" and "easy" to get an ID.  She has help and we still might not be successful.  She voted for years without a photo ID.  She was even a poll worker.  She is white and "privileged" even.

No health care provider has required photo ID.  They may have asked but moved on when she said she didn't have one.

This might be grasping at straws, but have you tried picking through the genealogy databases at ancestry.com to find the missing info? Depending on the state, there is sometimes a surprising amount of info available online. 

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Just now, MissLemon said:

This might be grasping at straws, but have you tried picking through the genealogy databases at ancestry.com to find the missing info? Depending on the state, there is sometimes a surprising amount of info available online. 

Seconding this. My husband was adopted and I'm reasonably certain that I found his biological mother through Ancestry.com. There is so much information there if you have a starting point. 

 

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8 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Birth certificates also cost anywhere from $5.00-30.00 depending on the state. If you were born in a state different from your current place of residence, they can be hard to get.

A state ID requires the birth certificate plus other proof of residence, and then costs $30 in many states.

IMO, voter ID requirements are unconstitutional because they are a poll tax. It requires citizens to pay money in order to vote. It requires the cost of transportation and potential.of lost wages to go get. Some places are many  hours long wait at the Secretary of States office. Low income folks are usually working jobs that do not come with paid vacation days. Poll taxes were eventually deemed wrong. Instituting them today is shockingly wrong unless ID is going to be free and easy to acquire by all citizens. I estimate that in some states, between wages, transportation, and cost of documentation a state ID can cost upwards of $150 and that is no small sum to low wage workers. Just one more way the wealthy elite try to keep citizens from voting.

It is a poll tax, and it should be called that. Possibly if the terminology around it changed, more folks would be up in arms about it. 

Voter ID is not a poll tax.  We have Voter ID in my state and have had it for at least 6 years.  We have free voter ID drives.  So no it doesn't cost anything.

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4 hours ago, skimomma said:

On the ID thing....  I can 100% attest that it is NOT easy for some citizens to get photos IDs.  My elderly mother, who does not have a driver's license, needs a state ID or passport to fly to visit her other daughter and grandbabies .  I have been working on this for months.  I have spent hours, if not days, trying to do this and am still far from it.  She has dementia and long ago lost all of her important documents (birth certificate, marriage license, SS card).  So, I have applied, multiple times, to get a copy of her BC, from a different state for months now.  I pay $22 every time and lose the money because we are guessing on her father's middle name.  They keep the money and deny on each guess.  The exact names of each parent (including middle) and the city of birth (another guess) are required.  We know what his middle name is, just not how to spell it as there are multiple common ways to do so.  I had better luck with the marriage certificate.  Also from another state.  $30.  This is all BEFORE I must travel an entire day to get to her to physically take her to the SOS office to apply for the ID.  She has no one else to take her.  More money to travel and more money for the ID.

Yeah.  Totally "simple" and "easy" to get an ID.  She has help and we still might not be successful.  She voted for years without a photo ID.  She was even a poll worker.  She is white and "privileged" even.

No health care provider has required photo ID.  They may have asked but moved on when she said she didn't have one.

But if she has dementia, why would she be voting?

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53 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

This might be grasping at straws, but have you tried picking through the genealogy databases at ancestry.com to find the missing info? Depending on the state, there is sometimes a surprising amount of info available online. 

This was my thought exactly! What year would her father have been born? There may be birth registration, draft registration, or some other record that would include his middle name.

@skimomma if you send me a PM I can search, I have an ancestry.com membership.

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Posted (edited)

re costs (both out of pocket, and time off from work) of getting a voter ID

59 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Voter ID is not a poll tax.  We have Voter ID in my state and have had it for at least 6 years.  We have free voter ID drives.  So no it doesn't cost anything.

"Poll tax" literally means a tax imposed at the time of registration or appearance at a polling place.  You are correct; that is not the current literal form of the barriers.

There are real barriers, including real out-of-pocket costs, nonetheless.

Even if state IDs themselves have no out-of-pocket costs (and often, they do) they virtually *always* require underlying documentation, such as a birth certificate, that *does* require out of pocket costs.    There are (as discussed upthread by multiple pp) even MORE substantial costs associated with legal documentation associated with a name change.

And many states do NOT have voter drives on multiple dates / easy-to-get-to sites on transport lines.   Even *before* the efforts in this year's legislative assembly to further restrict access to voting, the ACLU reported

Quote
  • The travel required is often a major burden on people with disabilities, the elderly, or those in rural areas without access to a car or public transportation. In Texas, some people in rural areas must travel approximately 170 miles to reach the nearest ID office.3

And plenty of folks don't drive / have access to a car.  Or excess cash to fund 170 miles x round trip worth of gas.

And plenty of folks don't have work flexibility or paid time off (!!) to go first to a limited-hours  location to get an ID, and then again to another location to register to vote, and then again actually TO exercise their constitutional right to vote.  (And then again to update information every time they change apartments.)

 

 

re dementia wrt Constitutionally entrenched rights

58 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

But if she has dementia, why would she be voting?

Does dementia entail loss of 2A rights in even one of the 50 states?  I do not believe so.

 

 

 

Edited by Pam in CT
omitted word
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

And worse, in Michigan, if a woman gets divorced and had taken her ex husband's last name, she has to have his permission to change back to her married name!!!! So disgusting. My hair stylist had to fight big time with her lousy, cheating, no good ex to finally get permission to change back to her maiden name. Absolutely reprehensible.

I’m sorry, Faith, but this is simply not true.

When a woman gets divorced in Michigan, all she has to do is notify the judge that she wants to change her name back to her maiden name, and her name will be changed as part of the divorce decree.

The ex-husband has absolutely nothing to do with it, and he has no say whatsoever in the matter.

Additionally, if the woman wants to keep her married name after her divorce, her ex-husband is not able to force her to change it.

Your hair stylist was lying to you — or maybe she just likes to make up big, dramatic stories to keep people from getting bored while she cuts their hair! 😃

 

Edited by Catwoman
I am unable to type.
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20 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

[OT, but, when my husband and I last year launched our vegetable garden and chicken coop in response to COVID lockdown, I enthusiastically proposed Goats as well. 

Pam in CT:

But he shut me right down.  Tom in CT:

 

And I will note that a) we are Jewish-- as per the other thread -- we don't even HAVE aGood Place/Bad Place in our worldview; and b) in any event: he's not much of a text-reader.

But somewhere he'd heard the line as well.]

 

OK back to regular programming...

In your husband’s defense, the best feta is made with pure sheep milk, not goat milk. 😜

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I had less trouble getting a passport than getting a (non-Real ID) drivers license in NJ.  But of course, the passport is more expensive and has it's own limitation.  

It's possible to get a job with just a birth certificate, but that's not enough to vote.  

The doctor's office only asks for id with insurance, but ERs and urgent cares often don't if you pay cash, or its a true emergency. 

One of the things I've been thinking about recently is how expensive it is to have a bank account.   Most of the IRL banks have minimum balances, otherwise you have pretty high fees.  I have my business account at the only IRL bank I could find with a branch within 100 miles of me, and I'm in a very populated suburban/metro area with five million options for everything.    So many many people don't have bank accounts and therefore don't need id for that.  Those predatory check cashing places don't require ID.   If someone is lucky enough, they get paid in cash.  

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6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

@Pam in CT I'm trying to send you a pm. Is your box full?

Huh. I don't think so, but I'll go clear out some artifacts.

 

 

re goats v sheep:

2 hours ago, bibiche said:

In your husband’s defense, the best feta is made with pure sheep milk, not goat milk. 😜

Huh, who knew.  (Well, you knew...)

BTW, I expect you are anxiously awaiting report on how the peach trees I procured upon your counsel are faring.  To my astonishment, they are setting fruit this year (even though they're teeny tiny itty bitty things that look like they'd topple over on the weight of a peach.)  I count the fruit daily: 31 on one tree, 27 on the other.  At the moment most of them are a bit bigger than the standard walnut...

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26 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I had less trouble getting a passport than getting a (non-Real ID) drivers license in NJ.  But of course, the passport is more expensive and has it's own limitation.  

It's possible to get a job with just a birth certificate, but that's not enough to vote.  

The doctor's office only asks for id with insurance, but ERs and urgent cares often don't if you pay cash, or its a true emergency. 

One of the things I've been thinking about recently is how expensive it is to have a bank account.   Most of the IRL banks have minimum balances, otherwise you have pretty high fees.  I have my business account at the only IRL bank I could find with a branch within 100 miles of me, and I'm in a very populated suburban/metro area with five million options for everything.    So many many people don't have bank accounts and therefore don't need id for that.  Those predatory check cashing places don't require ID.   If someone is lucky enough, they get paid in cash.  

My brother is one who doesn't have a bank account. Checks are cashed at Walmart for a fee; I will funnel money through an extra account of mine if he can get them to pay me by check (no local banks take 3rd party checks anymore) or he works for cash or a rent reduction. He is unemployed and has been un/underemployed for years, so for him to have money just sitting in an account in order to keep it open isn't worth it especially since a collector drained his last account years ago. He does have an ID, but I think my mom may have paid for it the last time it needed renewing.

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14 hours ago, MissLemon said:

This might be grasping at straws, but have you tried picking through the genealogy databases at ancestry.com to find the missing info? Depending on the state, there is sometimes a surprising amount of info available online. 

Yes, but for some reason only the middle initial is listed.  Which may very well be what is on the BC.  That is what we tried on the latest try.  We have not heard back yet on that one.

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13 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

But if she has dementia, why would she be voting?

Well, as others have said, she still has the right to vote.  She does not as she does not have the capacity to get to a polling place or high enough functioning to obtain and mail an absentee ballot.  Nor does she have any idea what is happening politically.  We need an ID so she can fly accompanied.  But the same barriers apply.  If her disability was purely physical and she DID want to vote, we would be in the same boat.

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re dementia and documentation

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

Well, as others have said, she still has the right to vote.  She does not as she does not have the capacity to get to a polling place or high enough functioning to obtain and mail an absentee ballot.  Nor does she have any idea what is happening politically.  We need an ID so she can fly accompanied.  But the same barriers apply.  If her disability was purely physical and she DID want to vote, we would be in the same boat.

I hope the standalone B does the trick, in managing to get her a birth certificate.

 

I remain curious whether in her state, getting a gun permit would serve as a workaround (to vote -- I understand that in her case the issue is flying).  It's not like getting a gun permit means the person then has to get a gun. I've never considered that option before -- If that's a route that enables easier access to voting, that's a route that voting advocates could usefully share with poorer / less work-hour-flexible people.

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