Retaking math, again

[Janeway]

I feel so frustrated! So far, I have just let son do what he wants. But, I am really feeling he just does not care about getting to the end. He INSISTS he wants to go to college. But, even though he had Algebra 2 three times and precalculus twice, and started AP math AB and left the school a month later, he is insisting on taking precalculus at the next college too. They told him to take the placement exam and he said no, he will be taking precalculus. He won't get credit for it, but he intends to pay for it and spend the entire summer in it. In high school, he home schooled through 10th grade. Then he went to a charter school and INSISTED he repeat tenth grade. He told the headmaster that he never had some of the courses for tenth, like algebra 2, which he had twice. He did Foerster's Algebra 2 and then Derek Owens. And then he took it over the course of a year at the charter school. He earned about 100% in the class as a result that it was so easy for him. It feels like a kindergartener refusing to go on to 1st grade because they want to stay in easy kindergarten, and then doing that for three years. At the charter school, he took precalculus and then started AP Calculus AB. He did not struggle with the class at all but left the charter school when he turned 18 yrs old and could withdraw himself, which was a month in to the school year. At Baylor, he started precalculus and was earning an A and finding it easy and left Baylor about a month in. Now he is going to UNT and has registered for precalculus again and has refused the college's requests that he take the placement exam. 

I think I should let this go. But I am tired of it, but whatever. What would be your take on this?

[regentrude]

As an advisor, I am usually seeing students act the opposite way and fight their placement test results in order to get into math courses they are not prepared for.
I would view a student's decision to start with a lower level math at a new institution as prudent and cautious, and very smart. If he never completed precalculus at Baylor, I don't see what the issue is. I have students who completed calc AP AB in highschool and decide it is in their best interest not to accept the credit but to start with calc 1 again, which is often a wise choice.
I am surprised the math placement is not mandatory. At our college, it is; students are welcome to start at a lower level than they are placed, but may absolutely not enroll in a course above their placement. 

ETA: A precalculus type course is the most common placement for students at my engineering school. They all had some kind of precalc in high school, yet their college algebra and trigonometry skills are so weak that many, many students, even of those who took calculus in high school, do not do well on the placement test. Really, taking precalc or a two semester calculus 1 sequence that has built-in precalc review is the best course of action for most of them. (Btw, anything below calculus won't give them credit towards any of the science and engineering majors.)

Edited May 27, 2021 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

I'd try to make sure he takes the placement test just for his own information. But I'd underscore that you wouldn't force him to do anything in particular after he does -- it's just so he knows where he stands. 

[catz]

I have a math background too, and I also more often see kids who insist on pushing ahead when they aren't ready.  I do think encouraging him to do placement just for info is a good idea.  I'd also much prefer students start back a level even if it seems easy.  Given he didn't actually complete calc, I don't think going back is that bad.  A fair number of students fake their way through high school math but that is hard to do with the pacing and content of a college level math class.  It really requires pretty deep conceptual understanding.  If he didn't complete calculus, I don't think that's necessarily the wrong placement.

However, is he transferring?  Was he otherwise successful at his first college?  Why did he leave after a month?  If you are burning up money and/or he is going into debt with these flash decisions, it might not be a bad idea to take a gap year to step back and reassess path.   Just sounds like some less than mature thought processes at play here.  

[Janeway]

1 hour ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I have a math background too, and I also more often see kids who insist on pushing ahead when they aren't ready.  I do think encouraging him to do placement just for info is a good idea.  I'd also much prefer students start back a level even if it seems easy.  Given he didn't actually complete calc, I don't think going back is that bad.  A fair number of students fake their way through high school math but that is hard to do with the pacing and content of a college level math class.  It really requires pretty deep conceptual understanding.  If he didn't complete calculus, I don't think that's necessarily the wrong placement.

However, is he transferring?  Was he otherwise successful at his first college?  Why did he leave after a month?  If you are burning up money and/or he is going into debt with these flash decisions, it might not be a bad idea to take a gap year to step back and reassess path.   Just sounds like some less than mature thought processes at play here.  

He was upset over the Covid stuff. The school claimed to have resources for ASD but actually had nothing. Even their disability services office was basically defunct because of Covid. Every single thing was online. They claimed all this stuff was in person, but once there, it was several hours a day, in a very small dorm room with another person, on zoom calls for every single thing from meetings, to residential college meetings, to dinners (yes, dinners on zoom), to classes to every single thing. And they would be listed as in person and then change hours before. And then he got caught in the dorm, studying, with no mask on, and was told the next time, he would get a $250 fine. AND, he was exposed to Covid two times and had to do a 2 week quarantine. And the second time, he said he was done and came home.Academically, he found the classes easy and was earning good grades. However, he had trouble connecting to the internet and trying to do zoom meetings in his 9 by 13 dorm room with his roommate doing them at the same time.

[Storygirl]

I don't have an opinion about the math class, per se, and think the advice by other posters is good. But this situation and your description of the mindset of your son suggests to me that part of what is frustrating you is the inflexible thinking. Being able to look at something only in one way is common with autism, and he may benefit from counseling to help him learn to better listen to advice. It's possible and even likely that this trait will contribute to difficulties in the future, while in college, and afterwards, in the workforce and with interpersonal relationships. I've heard of college students with ASD who are perfectly capable academically, but they can't complete required college coursework, because of inflexible thinking. I would worry about this possibility, more than I would worry about taking this particular math class.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Storygirl

[8filltheheart]

My thoughts were identical to @Storygirl's.  

[Lanny]

@Janeway   I have read all  of the above posts twice.  I am very sad for your DS. IMO all of the above responses to your OP are excellent and on-target. 

What is he Majoring in at UNT?

Has he gone to their Disability Services Office (or whatever it is called there) and asked for their help, with Counseling or some kind of Group Therapy?

I am a big believer in the "Pre" math courses. My DD took "Pre Algebra" and later "Pre Calculus" when she was in TTUISD and she was very well prepared.   I don't think taking any course, multiple times, because one is comfortable with the material, is a good way to spend time or money.

Calc is a big leap for many students and as was mentioned above, many students who did very well in High School Math courses can't make it in a University Calc class. For that reason, many universities require and/or strongly encourage their students to take Calc in their school, so they can teach it the way they want it taught.

I wish that I had the magic words to help your DS.   I believe he is going to need to be in Counseling and/or Group Therapy.

I am sad for the frustration he (and you) must be feeling with the Austin College to Baylor to UNT and the time and money that have been lost.

I wish your DS much success in his studies.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure you are ready to hear this, but from our btdt experience with our ds, it is unlikely to get better and the odds of normal transitions of high school to college to career are highly unlikely. We spent $$$ trying to help our ds move toward adulthood like his siblings, but his autism and comorbidities (mostly anxiety) really interfered with his ability to make those progressions. (He had a very high GPA and even attempted to return to college  part time few yrs ago at 26, but same issues made him decide no.)

I have suggested the Dept of Rehabilitative Services to you before, but I'll do so again.  They are wonderful in helping Aspies succeed. Our ds is finally happy and confident. He works full-time at Lowes. He has been awarded numerous awards and pay increases. He can grow there and plans on making it his career. He could be financially independent at this pt if he could manage his own budget and life, but we still have to assist him in thinking through his purchases or Magic woul come before rent.

 

[Rosie_0801]

I'm also agreeing with Storygirl. 

I wouldn't be able to do the degree I have if I had to do it again. I'm no less academically capable than I was 20 years ago, but the administrative effort of juggling online everything would do my head in. 

[chiguirre]

5 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

 

I have suggested the Dept of Rehabilitative Services to you before, but I'll do so again.  

 

In Texas, the agency you need is the Texas Workforce Commission.

[8filltheheart]

3 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

In Texas, the agency you need is the Texas Workforce Commission.

Thanks for clarifying.  I did a search. Here is a link for vocational services through the TX Workforce Commission: 

https://www.twc.texas.gov/jobseekers/vocational-rehabilitation-adults

[Dmmetler]

I agree with talking with the SSD office and with vocational rehab. I went through Voc Rehab in TX, and at least at TTU, they worked very closely with the college SSD office and in supporting college students. I suspect UNT will have a similar relationship. 

 

Having said that, Online everything is stressful. I really can't blame a student who started out and had a bad experience last fall wanting to just plain start over from scratch. I do think that he should do the placement test. If for no other reason than that, at least at TTU when I was there, not taking the placement test would not necessarily place him in precalculus designed to lead to Calculus, but in whatever the lowest math track is-and that would likely be a much lower step back than he wants. Unless TX has changed, they run on test scores-I had to go back and take high school level exams to qualify for teacher licensing, despite excellent grad school grades, GRE scores, and a Bachelor's degree with honors! 

[stripe]

I don’t have any suggestions, but I am sorry you’re experiencing the frustration of watching those you love do things that aren’t in their best interests. I definitely agree that he needs counseling and support from someone else, to give you a break yet still encourage him towards good choices. It’s so very hard.