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Posted

I'll have a 4th grader this fall who doesn't like math. 

He hasn't gotten comfortable with reading independently yet...he can read chapters books, but not usually on his own. The other day I caught him reading "My Father's Dragon" in his own free time, and that's encouraging. I'm not pushing him, we read lots together this year. I read aloud to him a lot, and sometimes have him read to me. I'm waiting for him to "blossom" in this area...maybe this next year?

I think his math angst is tied to the reading. I'm schooling 5 kids right now, and he's the middle child, but he's the one I spend the most time with, curled up on the couch together, coaxing him to get his problems done. If I leave his side, he's usually drawing cartoons all over his page. 

He gets uptight if he has to do anything timed. He does much better if I read the problems to him. Maybe there's a touch of dyslexia here?

My question is: Can I let him just bloom at his own pace in *math*? Or should I be concerned that we've just gotten comfortable with subtraction to 20 in 3rd grade, and he's still counting on his fingers in a pinch? At what point should I get concerned or try pushing him along? Looking for reassurance or redirection. 

 

Part of the pressure I'm feeling comes from my rising 3rd grader (7) who is 2 years younger than his brother, but knows all of his multiplication tables to 12, and I can't. slow. this. kid. down. I don't want my 4th grader (9) to get passed up and get discouraged. 

Secondary question: Should I give the 3rd grader something more "meaty" (Beast Academy?) to work on that would potentially slow him down a bit and allow me to focus on his brother? Would love any advice especially from anyone in the same boat with younger siblings outperforming/passing up older. 

 

I started to browse the forum for thoughts on these areas, I'm sure there's plenty there already on the hive...but we're moving in a few weeks, and I just can't give that kind of time to researching right now--even though it's bugging me. Any thoughts you'd like to share would be much appreciated!! ❤️

Posted

I would absolutely give the younger kid something meatier.

For the rising 4th grader, I would be slightly concerned.  A kid who is struggling is often reluctant to do the work, as you're finding out.  For them, it's not about whether the answer is right or wrong, but the whole point of the exercise and feeling like they're not stuck in a hole.

You didn't say what you're using with him (homegrown? A published curriculum?), but maybe it is just the approach that needs tweaking. 

  • Like 3
Posted
12 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

I would absolutely give the younger kid something meatier.

For the rising 4th grader, I would be slightly concerned.  A kid who is struggling is often reluctant to do the work, as you're finding out.  For them, it's not about whether the answer is right or wrong, but the whole point of the exercise and feeling like they're not stuck in a hole.

You didn't say what you're using with him (homegrown? A published curriculum?), but maybe it is just the approach that needs tweaking. 

We're using Math Mammoth.

Posted

I think you should definitely let the kids go at their own paces as far as possible, if you can stop them from comparing themselves. 

What's he counting on his fingers, if you don't mind me asking? 

  • Like 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think you should definitely let the kids go at their own paces as far as possible, if you can stop them from comparing themselves. 

What's he counting on his fingers, if you don't mind me asking? 

He'll count a problem like 14+8 or 21-5 out on his fingers. If he's in a pressured situation (timed drill) he freezes up and counts almost anything that he would normally have down (5+8) on his fingers. 

Posted
Just now, Momof3 said:

He'll count a problem like 14+8 or 21-5 out on his fingers. If he's in a pressured situation (timed drill) he freezes up and counts almost anything that he would normally have down (5+8) on his fingers. 

As in, counting on? 

  • Like 1
Posted

I think my real concern is his lack of love and joy in math.

I want to pull back and give him more time to develop confidence and love of math without pushing him into new things because we've got to get the next math year done... I want him to love math because we learn anything better that we love to do...

But I'm nervous about giving him that kind of space if this is just laziness that needs to be drilled out of him. 🙂 Then I'm setting him up to seek out the path of least resistance instead of learning to tackle what is hard and takes mental work.

If that makes sense.

So...does the love come before the learning, or the learning before the love? 🙂 

Posted
10 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

So...does the love come before the learning, or the learning before the love? 🙂 

I think they come together 🙂. It sounds like math is hard for him, which is probably discouraging to him. I'd definitely stop doing timed drills with him, since he freezes up, and I'd keep things gentle. But I'd also introduce new concepts 🙂 . 

What concepts has he been working on? Do you know how he's doing with place value? Has he had multiplication introduced? 🙂 

  • Like 3
Posted
3 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

I want to pull back and give him more time to develop confidence and love of math without pushing him into new things because we've got to get the next math year done... I want him to love math because we learn anything better that we love to do...

But I'm nervous about giving him that kind of space if this is just laziness that needs to be drilled out of him. 🙂 Then I'm setting him up to seek out the path of least resistance instead of learning to tackle what is hard and takes mental work

I don’t think you can make love of math (or any subject) happen just by doing the right things. Some kids are just never going to love certain subjects. In my experience, a time comes where you just need to get a kid through the subject they dislike as well as they can, as solidly as they can, even if they don’t like it. 
 

I wouldn’t see anything you say as being likely to be laziness that can be drilled out. In your place, I would actually be looking for a way to have him tested, as from your description, I would be concerned that a learning disability is holding him back. 
 

In the meantime, I would actually consider giving him something like Beast Academy (at a lower level, like 2nd grade) to work through on the computer to see how taking the reading out of it and giving him something with some interesting conceptual problems went. Perhaps along with playing some math games or maybe doing one of Kste Snow’s programs? (And I say that as a Math Mammoth lover. It’s the primary program I use for my kids for elementary math.)

  • Like 2
Posted
6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think they come together 🙂. It sounds like math is hard for him, which is probably discouraging to him. I'd definitely stop doing timed drills with him, since he freezes up, and I'd keep things gentle. But I'd also introduce new concepts 🙂 . 

What concepts has he been working on? Do you know how he's doing with place value? Has he had multiplication introduced? 🙂 

 

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don’t think you can make love of math (or any subject) happen just by doing the right things. Some kids are just never going to love certain subjects. In my experience, a time comes where you just need to get a kid through the subject they dislike as well as they can, as solidly as they can, even if they don’t like it. 
 

I wouldn’t see anything you say as being likely to be laziness that can be drilled out. In your place, I would actually be looking for a way to have him tested, as from your description, I would be concerned that a learning disability is holding him back. 
 

In the meantime, I would actually consider giving him something like Beast Academy (at a lower level, like 2nd grade) to work through on the computer to see how taking the reading out of it and giving him something with some interesting conceptual problems went. Perhaps along with playing some math games or maybe doing one of Kste Snow’s programs? (And I say that as a Math Mammoth lover. It’s the primary program I use for my kids for elementary math.)

I don't do much with timed drills unless I sneak them in by not telling him I'm timing him. 🙂

Yes, he does very well with place value. And we covered all the 3rd grade multiplication stuff. We did lots and lots and lots of skip counting, and I used Multiplication That Sticks games with him and ds7 (which is how ds7 knows all his multiplication tables). Ds9 can fill in a multiplication chart (0-12) easily. Only recall of tricky facts (7x6, 8x6, 8x7) are really hard. But his attitude is still "I can't do this, I give up, I hate math."

Okay, maybe I do need to get him tested. Will look into this once we're move and settled. And I'll look into Beast Academy too.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

Yes, he does very well with place value.

So then he'd be able to explain how to do something like 53 - 19 with manipulatives (or mentally by explaining the trading)? What would his strategy be? 

I've generally found that place value is harder than people think it is 🙂 . That's why I'm asking. 

 

Quote

And we covered all the 3rd grade multiplication stuff. We did lots and lots and lots of skip counting, and I used Multiplication That Sticks games with him and ds7 (which is how ds7 knows all his multiplication tables). Ds9 can fill in a multiplication chart (0-12) easily. Only recall of tricky facts (7x6, 8x6, 8x7) are really hard. But his attitude is still "I can't do this, I give up, I hate math."

Two questions: 

1) What does he think 7x6 means, if you ask him about it? Would he be able to make a story problem to illustrate it? 

2) What's his strategy if he forgets a multiplication fact like 8x7? 

 

I hope you don't mind the detailed questions! I've absolutely worked with math-reluctant kids before, and more often than not, the issue is that they aren't really getting a feel for what they are doing and so it feels arbitrary and pointless. That's why I'm checking what he understands 🙂 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 1
Posted
Just now, Not_a_Number said:

So then he'd be able to explain how to do something like 53 - 19 with manipulatives or mentally by explaining the trades? What would his strategy be? 

I've generally found that place value is harder than people think it is 🙂 . That's why I'm asking. 

 

Two questions: 

1) What does he think 7x6 means, if you ask him about it? Would he be able to make a story problem to illustrate it? 

2) What's his strategy if he forgets a multiplication fact like 8x7? 

 

I hope you don't mind the detailed questions! I've absolutely worked with math-reluctant kids before, and more often than not, the issue is that they aren't really getting a feel for what they are doing and so it feels arbitrary and pointless. That's why I'm checking what he understands 🙂 

I don't mind at all! This is helping me to think things through. 

 

Yes, he would be able to break a ten and "give" it to the ones... He can do regrouping with addition and subtraction on paper just fine without manipulatives (although he balks at doing more than three or four problems at a time). He can do the same thing with 3-digit numbers even when regrouping twice (323-289). And he could demonstrate that with manipulatives *if I made him. 🙂

 

7x6 he would explain as seven 6s or six 7s (he gets that multiplication is commutative). He'd probably draw 7 boxes and count them by six (6, 12, 18, etc.)...or maybe just write "6, 12, 18...42" out and figure it that way. 

*Make* a story problem...not sure about that one. Maybe but I'd have to check. He doesn't like word problems in general. He balks at the extra step of trying to decide what the problem, writing out a number sentence, etc. But if I give him a page of word problems he will get most of them right. So the reasoning skills are there...it's either laziness or lack of confidence or a mental block - either because of a processing disability or just a complex about math. ?

 

Strategy for 8x7 would be to either skip-count by 7s or 8s...or back up to a problem he knows (7x7 is 49) and add 8.

I've also showed him how 8x7 is the same as 4x7 + 4x7 and he occasionally remembers to try something like that.  

Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

I don't mind at all! This is helping me to think things through. 

Yes, he would be able to break a ten and "give" it to the ones... He can do regrouping with addition and subtraction on paper just fine without manipulatives (although he balks at doing more than three or four problems at a time). He can do the same thing with 3-digit numbers even when regrouping twice (323-289). And he could demonstrate that with manipulatives *if I made him. 🙂

Great! That sounds like he's honestly in a pretty good place with place value. I might ask him to do something like 323 - 289 with manipulatives once to humor me, so you can report back the exact steps, but it sounds like he's doing great. 

 

Quote

7x6 he would explain as seven 6s or six 7s (he gets that multiplication is commutative). He'd probably draw 7 boxes and count them by six (6, 12, 18, etc.)...or maybe just write "6, 12, 18...42" out and figure it that way. 

Ah-ha. Do you think he could explain why seven 6s is the same as six 7s? What would he say if you asked? 

 

Quote

*Make* a story problem...not sure about that one. Maybe but I'd have to check. He doesn't like word problems in general. He balks at the extra step of trying to decide what the problem, writing out a number sentence, etc. But if I give him a page of word problems he will get most of them right. So the reasoning skills are there...it's either laziness or lack of confidence or a mental block - either because of a processing disability or just a complex about math. ?

Most kids don't like word problems because they don't have very robust mental models of the operations and therefore it's hard for them to figure out which operation to use. It's pretty common. I actually don't tend to worry about word problems nearly as much as I do about kids actually working with what the operations are. 

 

Quote

Strategy for 8x7 would be to either skip-count by 7s or 8s...or back up to a problem he knows (7x7 is 49) and add 8.

I've also showed him how 8x7 is the same as 4x7 + 4x7 and he occasionally remembers to try something like that.  

That sounds pretty good, although I'd work on him using a wider array of strategies, letting him think about how one might do something like "put together 8 sevens" himself. 

What kinds of questions is he winding up giving up on? When is he saying that he doesn't like math? 

(By the way, you're local to me (until you move), aren't you?? I'm in NYC, too.) 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, KSera said:

I wouldn’t see anything you say as being likely to be laziness that can be drilled out. In your place, I would actually be looking for a way to have him tested, as from your description, I would be concerned that a learning disability is holding him back. 

This.

And look into Ronit Bird. He probably has either some ADHD or learning disabilities or both. 

1 hour ago, Momof3 said:

He doesn't like word problems in general. He balks at the extra step of trying to decide what the problem, writing out a number sentence, etc. But if I give him a page of word problems he will get most of them right. So the reasoning skills are there...it's either laziness or lack of confidence or a mental block - either because of a processing disability or just a complex about math. ?

Or low processing speed and poor working memory. Have you looked into something like Daily Word Problems so that he could do less and get more frequent practice? Here's a series I've used and amazon has it for $5. https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Word-Problems-Grade-3/dp/1557998159

You have 6 kids in a NYC apartment?? I'm reading your sig correctly? What happens if he goes to the park first to play? Any chance of a tutor or some help? 

 

  • Like 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You have 6 kids in a NYC apartment?? I'm reading your sig correctly? What happens if he goes to the park first to play? Any chance of a tutor or some help? 

They are moving, or I'd coordinate with them. 

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Momof3 said:

Okay, maybe I do need to get him tested. Will look into this once we're move and settled.

Yes, it's time. When it's affecting his self concept and he's that frustrated, it's time. 

21 hours ago, Momof3 said:

If I leave his side, he's usually drawing cartoons all over his page. 

You might lean in on this. Embrace it more, encourage it, maybe make it a subject each day and give it a slot. Maybe make his math sessions shorter with breaks and he gets to watch artsy/creative youtube videos as a reward. You can use EdPuzzle to make lists of youtube videos without the hazard of them going haywire. I just learned about this.

Here's an example merging math and art. Or just go art. But lean in on what he's GOOD at and don't only do his weak thing, kwim? 

 

 

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)

How is handwriting going? If it's going well, you could show him Seb Lester's calligraphy stuff, which is a marvel. If it's not going well, obviously don't do that, lol.

Fwiw, my ds is gifted with every SLD. I spend a lot of time thinking about how to flip the dynamic, how to be positive in a sea of negative, to look for what can work or what he's good at. It's really important.

Edited by PeterPan
  • Like 2
Posted
Just now, PeterPan said:

How is handwriting going? If it's going well, you could show him Seb Lester's calligraphy stuff, which is a marvel. If it's not going well, obviously don't do that, lol.

Handwriting is good. Not sure if he'd get into calligraphy. He likes comics and cartooning. But I'll look into it. 

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This.

And look into Ronit Bird. He probably has either some ADHD or learning disabilities or both. 

Or low processing speed and poor working memory. Have you looked into something like Daily Word Problems so that he could do less and get more frequent practice? Here's a series I've used and amazon has it for $5. https://www.amazon.com/Daily-Word-Problems-Grade-3/dp/1557998159

You have 6 kids in a NYC apartment?? I'm reading your sig correctly? What happens if he goes to the park first to play? Any chance of a tutor or some help? 

 

Will look into Ronit Bird. Next thing to do is probably to get him tested though and see what I'm dealing with. 

Yes, they do play at the park - obviously we had an absolutely crazy covid year, but this past school year they've been out for at least 30 min most mornings before school. 

  • Like 2
Posted
Just now, Momof3 said:

Handwriting is good. Not sure if he'd get into calligraphy. He likes comics and cartooning. But I'll look into it. 

That's really good if handwriting is going tolerably well! If he likes comics, have you tried graphic novels on him? There are SO many now. And of course the old ones like Calvin & Hobbes. My dd inhaled comics so much I despaired, tried to hide them. Almost perfect ACT scores. So I say comics harm no one. :biggrin:

2 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

Yes, they do play at the park - obviously we had an absolutely crazy covid year, but this past school year they've been out for at least 30 min most mornings before school. 

I'm asking because ADHD is going to overlap with SLDs about 60% of the time. So exercising and some movement would be a normal suggestion. You might also try some mindfulness. You could do something like Sitting Like a Frog, which has free soundtracks online that you can play. (just google) Or teach him to body scan and talk about each part of his body, head to toe, inside and out. It sounds silly or like nothing, but just 5 minutes of that can give him a 30% bump in Executive Function (EF, the stuff he needs to hold it together and get those word problems done). So doing a body scan before he starts math might be perfect. It can also help him become more self aware and ask for breaks BEFORE he gets to that point.

That's something to think about, how you can up communication about his stress and make it *OK* for him to ask for breaks. I toured a dyslexia school near us that is top notch, draws from all over the state, and this was a HUGE DEAL there. They did a lot of work on self advocacy, saying where you needed to work to feel well, saying you needed a break, etc. So they'd have different types of stations (standing desks, sitting, etc.) and the option to go into the large hall where it was like a living room with couches and tables. It was like home, and we have that flexibility to let our kids advocate and self monitor like that. (I see your attention is dropping, do you need to take a break and do 5 minutes on the elliptical and then come back...)

  • Like 2
Posted

1.  Have you tried other programs besides MM?  I've used it off and on with 4 of my kids and while the math is solid,  all of my kids hate it.  They find the pages cluttered and overwhelming. 

2.  One year for 4th grade, I had my DD do every problem on a white board (Saxon 54).  For some reason,  the white board made a difference- easy to erase,  easy to draw diagrams.  I gave her a problem,  she did it, I checked it, and on to the next problem.   We tend to draw a lot of visuals.

3.  Do you allow notes or other visual reminders?  I have spent hours making easy to follow notes, flow charts, whatever references my kids needed.  Sometimes a graphic or a reminder can really help with recall.  If its mostly memorization of math facts, let him use a multiplication or addition chart- bonus if he fills it out!  I always started the lesson with a blank table, and let them use it for that lesson.  

4.  Not all kids learn at the same pace- your younger one will probably pass your older one.  Its a great time to start talking about strengths and struggles and how we appreciate all kinds of abilities.  I've got one super-star kid followed by a kid who had an undiagnosed LD for years. Then I've got twins!  Kids know, so be honest about it.  They will take their cues from you, so decide how it will be approached in your home.  Some of us are good at memorizing or synthesizing information.  Some of us are creative, kind, artistic, determined.  Some if us are better at sports, organization,  following directions, extended attention spans.   If he can say Younger Kid is better at math and reading than I am, but I am good at drawing, its building his self-esteem. I tried sooooo hard not to put too much value on academic advancement. 

I hope some of this helps!  

  • Like 4
Posted
1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

That's really good if handwriting is going tolerably well! If he likes comics, have you tried graphic novels on him? There are SO many now. And of course the old ones like Calvin & Hobbes. My dd inhaled comics so much I despaired, tried to hide them. Almost perfect ACT scores. So I say comics harm no one. :biggrin:

I'm asking because ADHD is going to overlap with SLDs about 60% of the time. So exercising and some movement would be a normal suggestion. You might also try some mindfulness. You could do something like Sitting Like a Frog, which has free soundtracks online that you can play. (just google) Or teach him to body scan and talk about each part of his body, head to toe, inside and out. It sounds silly or like nothing, but just 5 minutes of that can give him a 30% bump in Executive Function (EF, the stuff he needs to hold it together and get those word problems done). So doing a body scan before he starts math might be perfect. It can also help him become more self aware and ask for breaks BEFORE he gets to that point.

That's something to think about, how you can up communication about his stress and make it *OK* for him to ask for breaks. I toured a dyslexia school near us that is top notch, draws from all over the state, and this was a HUGE DEAL there. They did a lot of work on self advocacy, saying where you needed to work to feel well, saying you needed a break, etc. So they'd have different types of stations (standing desks, sitting, etc.) and the option to go into the large hall where it was like a living room with couches and tables. It was like home, and we have that flexibility to let our kids advocate and self monitor like that. (I see your attention is dropping, do you need to take a break and do 5 minutes on the elliptical and then come back...)

Ah yes, Calvin & Hobbes are great favorites in our family. 

Taking breaks is good. I will think about this - how to help him with communication & allow for breaks/change of focus.

Posted
48 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

1.  Have you tried other programs besides MM?  I've used it off and on with 4 of my kids and while the math is solid,  all of my kids hate it.  They find the pages cluttered and overwhelming. 

2.  One year for 4th grade, I had my DD do every problem on a white board (Saxon 54).  For some reason,  the white board made a difference- easy to erase,  easy to draw diagrams.  I gave her a problem,  she did it, I checked it, and on to the next problem.   We tend to draw a lot of visuals.

3.  Do you allow notes or other visual reminders?  I have spent hours making easy to follow notes, flow charts, whatever references my kids needed.  Sometimes a graphic or a reminder can really help with recall.  If its mostly memorization of math facts, let him use a multiplication or addition chart- bonus if he fills it out!  I always started the lesson with a blank table, and let them use it for that lesson.  

4.  Not all kids learn at the same pace- your younger one will probably pass your older one.  Its a great time to start talking about strengths and struggles and how we appreciate all kinds of abilities.  I've got one super-star kid followed by a kid who had an undiagnosed LD for years. Then I've got twins!  Kids know, so be honest about it.  They will take their cues from you, so decide how it will be approached in your home.  Some of us are good at memorizing or synthesizing information.  Some of us are creative, kind, artistic, determined.  Some if us are better at sports, organization,  following directions, extended attention spans.   If he can say Younger Kid is better at math and reading than I am, but I am good at drawing, its building his self-esteem. I tried sooooo hard not to put too much value on academic advancement. 

I hope some of this helps!  

1. Only dabbled a bit with supplements. MM is cluttery...I like that its cheap and functional. There are just so many maths out there and I've heard pros and cons for all of them. 🙂 

2. I really like the whiteboard idea. He would probably like that. I'm planning on mounting a whiteboard in our new place so this would be easy to try.

3. This is something I can work on too. Sometimes I let him doodle characters to "act out" word problems (although can tend to become tedious and distracting)...but I can look into visual aids too. I like the blank table - he would like that.

4. Yes, we've had lots of these discussions. 🙂 It does help that ds9 is super handy, has beautiful handwriting, is a great artist, a skillful entertainer, and is definitely more socially/emotionally mature than ds7. 🙂 He's a pretty secure guy overall. 

 

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I've found that I can get really far via playing games, although they have to actually be games, not, like, games that are clearly just math in disguise 😉 . 

Suggestions? You mean computer games? 🙂 We like Math Playground and Hoodamath, but they gravitate towards the "logic" games and I'm not sure how much math they're actually picking up. 

  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Momof3 said:

Suggestions? You mean computer games? 🙂 We like Math Playground and Hoodamath, but they gravitate towards the "logic" games and I'm not sure how much math they're actually picking up. 

No, I mean games that actually make the kids work with the mental models of the concepts, which in my experience is where you get fluidity from. Like Blockout: 

https://mathforlove.com/lesson/blockout/

But there are other games, too 🙂 . 

You say that he's still getting stuck on small additions like 15 + 8, right? Does he have his addition facts to 10 memorized, or are those giving him trouble? Getting those totally automatic would help if it's possible for him. 

I'm also a huge fan of simply talking out the math. I find that a lot of kids lose the sense-making part of math -- like, they don't really think of 6x7 as referring to anything real. Games can be nice if they provide a visual where you're actually interacting with the concept. (I find that lots of games actually don't have one interact with the concept, alas. Most games are drill in disguise, which is just fine if that's where you are, but isn't fine if the issue is a fuzzy mental model.) 

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 2
Posted
9 hours ago, Momof3 said:

I'm planning on mounting a whiteboard

You might consider some smaller sizes like 16X20, 17X23, or 11X17. This way you can put the whiteboard on the table in front of  you and work together. For something smaller, like working with cuisinaire rods or writing equations to go with a Ronit Bird game, I'm going to be using that smaller size. For a bigger task (division, sentence diagramming, story grammar), out comes the bigger one. I also have whiteboards mounted around our room for writing out schedules, doing things together while standing, but really I super love these smaller sizes. I keep several of them standing beside our table so I can just whip out a new one as needed. If you get *magnetic* they will last better and clean better. There will be lots of them as soon as the back to school stuff comes out this summer, but you can still find some right now. :smile:

Posted
9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

 I just started using these dice with ds https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CZAEO2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1  which would work well for that. Ronit Bird was using them with her Tic Tac Toe tables game .

 

For op, here's a list of Ronit Bird's videos https://www.youtube.com/user/DyscalculiaVideos/videos  She also has videos embedded in her WONDERFUL, inexpensive $10 ebooks. Her first book Dots is addition with single digits. Her C-Rods ebook extends it to multi digit (which is maybe where you are?) and then she has her multiplication and fractions ebooks. Highly recommend. She also has a free Card Games ebook and printed books. But if you just want to try a little something, $10 or free gets you there. And she has so much on youtube. 

If someone has ADHD, the low dopamine affects working memory and the ability to hold things in short term memory and get them into long term memory. So that's why kids will seem to get it but then not know it the next time around. It's the ADHD. But then with dyscalculia (which is a component of SLD Math), the number sense is affected. Number sense and other areas of math like creative problem solving are stored in separate sides of the brain, so one or the other can be affected. So someone can be quite bright with math (my ds) and struggle mightily with basics. The hard things are easy and the easy things are hard then, sigh.

So you can look at your dc and start to pinpoint what you think is going on. Is number sense a problem for them? Then that's dyscalculia and doing more of the same won't help. That's when you need methods meant for dyscalculia. But if it's just not getting memorized (like my dd, oh my), then you can try ADHD meds to raise the dopamine, do games to build working memory, and use strategies that get them enough repetition to move things from short term/working memory to that long term memory. Sometimes *visualization* is a strength for these kids, so you can look for visual memory strategies. Given that he's cartooning so much, he might respond to very visual methods. For instance https://www.timestales.com  There are several products like this that build stories and visual imagery around the math to make it more memorable. 

 

Posted

I've never used a white board 😂. Nothing against them, but they are a tool like any other. Practically every kid I've seen struggling with math has struggled due to a lack of understanding and an intolerable cognitive load more than anything else. I'm all for whiteboards if they can help with that, but ultimately, you're going to have to get at the root cause. 

I think testing is a good idea. And also, talking to him more about what it is that's making him hate math, and observing what concepts and what kinds of questions he's struggling with, and in general, troubleshooting what the problem is. 

And to come back to one of the original question... yes, I think it's a good idea to let kids "blossom" in their own time, as long as you make sure to introduce concepts and let them get absorbed. Concepts are separate from facts, anyway. I wouldn't put concepts off... what I'd do is lay the pressure off the facts. 

Posted
36 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Practically every kid I've seen struggling with math has struggled due to a lack of understanding and an intolerable cognitive load more than anything else.

Which is why whiteboards are brilliant. A whiteboard is external RAM for the person with poor working memory or processing speed. It allows a scribe to get their thoughts down and hold them so the person doesn't lose track. It's also a ready surface to write out representations the person is visualizing or forming with manipulatives or card. So we play the game then we bring over a tiny whiteboard and *write* some ways we might write it mathematically. It allows us to be flexible and explore concepts (that those rods could actually be shown lots of ways, including with parenthetical notation, what's another way we could write that, etc.). It busts you out of worksheet limitations and lets you explore. Love the whiteboards. 

43 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it's a good idea to let kids "blossom" in their own time

I was trying to find Laurie4b's open letter on disabilities where she combats the late bloomer thing that causes people to delay diagnosis and getting good help, but I can't find it. However there was this thread op might find interesting. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/36604-an-open-invitation-to-parents-of-learning-challenged-kids-xposted-on-curricula-board/?tab=comments#comment-4407368

 

  • Like 3
Posted
32 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Which is why whiteboards are brilliant. A whiteboard is external RAM for the person with poor working memory or processing speed. It allows a scribe to get their thoughts down and hold them so the person doesn't lose track. It's also a ready surface to write out representations the person is visualizing or forming with manipulatives or card. So we play the game then we bring over a tiny whiteboard and *write* some ways we might write it mathematically. It allows us to be flexible and explore concepts (that those rods could actually be shown lots of ways, including with parenthetical notation, what's another way we could write that, etc.). It busts you out of worksheet limitations and lets you explore. Love the whiteboards. 

I do write things for kids. I don't use worksheets, period. My point was that it's easy to stock up on "technology" when you really need to dig deeper and figure out what's going on. 

 

32 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I was trying to find Laurie4b's open letter on disabilities where she combats the late bloomer thing that causes people to delay diagnosis and getting good help, but I can't find it. However there was this thread op might find interesting. https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/36604-an-open-invitation-to-parents-of-learning-challenged-kids-xposted-on-curricula-board/?tab=comments#comment-4407368

Well, obviously she should get him tested to get a better sense of what he can and can't do. I already said that. However, you gotta work with kids where they are, and pushing them past what they can do isn't going to be the right thing, either. 

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

pushing them past what they can do isn't going to be the right thing, either. 

Not that you asked, but Vygotsky actually says just the opposite, that you *should* push beyond what they can do independently. He called it a Zone of Proximal Development and wanted educators to explore what the dc could do with assistance/mentoring vs. what they could do independently (the very american thing). To me this is how I use Ronit Bird, pushing him into something that is a *bit beyond* what he can do independently but which he can do *together*. And as he gets stronger, he grows more independent at the task. It's why we'll play one game for 6-8 weeks daily. 

Edited by PeterPan
  • Like 2
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Not that you asked, but Vygotsky actually says just the opposite, that you *should* push beyond what they can do independently. He called it a Zone of Proximal Development and wanted educators to explore what the dc could do with assistance/mentoring vs. what they could do independently (the very american thing). To me this is how I use Ronit Bird, pushing him into something that is a *bit beyond* what he can do independently but which he can do *together*. And as he gets stronger, he grows more independent at the task. It's why we'll play one game for 6-8 weeks daily. 

Yes, that’s what I do as well, or I wouldn’t have a 8-year-old doing algebra. But at every point, each thing we were working on was connected to what she could already do. So, yes, obviously one SHOULD push kids... but you don’t want to push them into a territory where their sense-making doesn’t apply. I’ve seen WAY too many kids who could carry out algorithms they could neither explain nor apply in a real way.

Edited by Not_a_Number
  • Like 1
Posted
5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Not that you asked, but Vygotsky actually says just the opposite, that you *should* push beyond what they can do independently. He called it a Zone of Proximal Development and wanted educators to explore what the dc could do with assistance/mentoring vs. what they could do independently (the very american thing). To me this is how I use Ronit Bird, pushing him into something that is a *bit beyond* what he can do independently but which he can do *together*. And as he gets stronger, he grows more independent at the task. It's why we'll play one game for 6-8 weeks daily. 

And of course, there’s always the counterpoint of the Benezet experiment, which is NOT what I do, but which does scan as plausible to me.

  • Like 1
Posted
48 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And of course, there’s always the counterpoint of the Benezet experiment, which is NOT what I do, but which does scan as plausible to me.

And is sort of the whole point of classical/neoclassical movements, that without language you're no where.

  • Like 1
Posted
1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

And is sort of the whole point of classical/neoclassical movements, that without language you're no where.

Right. Which is why I'm such a fan of talking math out and connecting it to things. I mean, I have absolutely seen kids who "know" that 5+5 = 10 but wouldn't be able to tell me what you get if you have 5 pencils and another 5 pencils. And it's not necessarily accompanied by serious learning difficulties, either. 

Posted

I'd try Teaching Textbooks with that kid. It reads the problem out loud to him, and he can have it repeat the problem if need be. It also uses little random noises and motion to get their attention if they haven't done anything in too long - it's made for distractable kids. Plus, it tells them if they are right or not after each problem, so they can try again if they mess up, rather than continuing to get a whole page of problems wrong and THEN find out they were doing it the wrong way. My dyslexic does really well with it. 

Posted

My younger son was years ahead of my older son in math. They are unique individuals that matured differently with different strengths and weaknesses.  Siblings live together for a short time before they leave the nest and follow their own individual paths. Each must be prepared for his own path without being hindered by the shadow of the others.

Work ethic is never taught well with academics. Work ethic is best taught with manual labor, and best when it includes blood, sweat, and tears. A person that learns to work hard at manual labor first is a better scholar.

Posted
26 minutes ago, Hunter said:

Work ethic is never taught well with academics. Work ethic is best taught with manual labor, and best when it includes blood, sweat, and tears. A person that learns to work hard at manual labor first is a better scholar.

I know very few scholars that were first adept at manual labor. And I know quite a lot of scholars.  

You can teach work ethic with anything requiring effort. Mental effort is neither better nor worse than physical effort. It's just different. 

(I'm mentally but not physically energetic. I manage.) 

Posted

Most scholars love to learn. We scholars study because we LIKE to study; it is not work. Learning new things is our oxygen. Without new input we suffocate.

Not all children are scholars, but most children can be taught work ethic, and most children can then apply that work ethic to studies they would not otherwise choose to study.

Forcing children to study as a way to teach them work ethic is putting the cart before the horse. I seldom have the resources to engage in inefficient methods.

I tried the forced study method with both boys. It failed, especially with my less studious kid. My least studious kid wanted to go out to work on the docks. I let him, only because the alternative was that he would do nothing. In the end, my least studious kid completed the most years of college. He learned to complete work that he didn't want to do and to do it efficiently.

His brother is a scholar, but never spilled the blood, sweat, and tears. He studies what he wants when he wants. If I had to do it over with him, I would have spent less time on academics and more time teaching him manual labor.

  • Like 1
Posted
49 minutes ago, Hunter said:

If I had to do it over with him, I would have spent less time on academics and more time teaching him manual labor.

I think an emphasis on physical skills as somehow superior to mental skills is kind of triggering for me, frankly. Might be the current state of the world and the fact that my people have never been known for their manual labor prowess. I know that's not what you mean, but I've been thinking about why this line of thinking bothers me, and this is what I've pinpointed. 

 

50 minutes ago, Hunter said:

Forcing children to study as a way to teach them work ethic is putting the cart before the horse. I seldom have the resources to engage in inefficient methods.

I do see that. It's true that in my kids' studies, I've mostly prioritized joyful learning and not merely work-ethic-requiring drudgery. On the other hand, I do think applying oneself to the boring parts of one's studies (even if OVERALL your studies inspire you) can teach you work ethic. In this household, it's possible that the thing teaching work ethic the most is playing the piano, as it's repetitive and not always intellectually stimulating, but the kids are overall musical and on board. 

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Posted

For a long time, music studies have been linked to increased math scores. I do think that music stimulates and develops parts of the brain that overlap with parts used for math, but now I am wondering about the work ethic component. Interesting.

  • Like 1
Posted
22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

do see that. It's true that in my kids' studies, I've mostly prioritized joyful learning and not merely work-ethic-requiring drudgery. On the other hand, I do think applying oneself to the boring parts of one's studies (even if OVERALL your studies inspire you) can teach you work ethic. 

Absolutely, but the risk is they develop an aversion to the studies - and I'd rather them have an aversion to toilet bowl cleaning, lol. 

  • Haha 2
Posted
44 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Absolutely, but the risk is they develop an aversion to the studies - and I'd rather them have an aversion to toilet bowl cleaning, lol. 

Hah. True. As I said, we do that after there’s a general agreement on what to study. But after the goals are clear, then yes... I do point out that how much effort you put in will affect what you get out. 

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