Potential Science Major without AP Bio?

[8filltheheart]

25 minutes ago, Frances said:

So many students change their mind about medical school (my son and two nieces are three recent examples for me, all with the grades, test scores, and ECs to be admitted and at the very top of their college graduating classes). My husband also never attended despite being admitted two different times. I think the most common advice is to have a strong back up plan if either you aren’t admitted or change your mind. I’m not sure I would choose a major because it looks good for medical school or because a higher percentage of students with that major are admitted to medical school, but rather based on what major a student really wants to pursue and gives them good back up options. The one recent grad I know who is in medical school and was accepted everywhere he applied was a Biology major.

I agree most change their minds.  Bio as a degree without any future plans is not the greatest back-up plan.  I would recommend about any other degree than biology!  A major that they can see leading to a career outside of medicine would be the best option.

18 minutes ago, Sherry in OH said:

 

I do not understand why so many on this board think physical science is always a middle school science course.  

My son's college-prep STEM-focused high school not only considers physical science a high school level course, it requires that all students take it.   Students who take Algebra I prior to 9th grade may take physical science in 8th grade for high school credit.  The default 8th grade course is 8th grade science. 8th grade students who take physical science are in the same class as high school students with all students being held to the same standard.  The school requires that students complete physical science, biology, and chemistry before taking any AP science courses.  Students fit in multiple AP sciences by selecting science courses as electives thus allowing them to earn more than one science credit per year.  

I do not have advice on which sciences a pre-med major should take.  I just wanted to let the OP know that based on the colleges that have accepted students from my son's school, having physical science on a high school transcript will in no way stigmatize a potential student. 

 

I think the fact that 8th grade alg 1 isn't the standard tract reflects the school's sequence.  Most of the med school students I know were extremely high functioning high school students where alg in 8th grade is the norm. (And the OP's student is a strong math student, so math would in no way have inhibited science progression.)  FWIW, I don't think having physical science as a 9th grader will stigmatize the student.  I do think that her science sequence will put her at a serious disadvantage in terms of preparedness compared to other students wanting to pursue med school. 

FWIW, completely disconnected to this thread, physical science is not a required science to succeed in bio, chem, physics, or earth system sciences.  Students can jump directly into those core sciences never having had any general science on the subject matter.

[EKS]

23 minutes ago, Sherry in OH said:

Students who take Algebra I prior to 9th grade may take physical science in 8th grade for high school credit. 

Generally speaking, physical science is (extremely) watered down physics and chemistry.  A strong high school program isn't going to waste a year on it when students could be doing biology, chemistry, physics, and an advanced science instead.  

[EKS]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think the fact that 8th grade alg 1 isn't the standard tract reflects the school's sequence.

This.

[SoCal_Bear]

10 hours ago, Farrar said:

The Blue Tent AP Bio course is much more liked than the PAH course.

 

I noticed that PAH has a new teacher offering AP Bio with a live class meeting now in addition to the one that shall not be named. Ivonne Heapy is the instructor. 

[Farrar]

In terms of the path to med school though... some small colleges have higher admit rates and strong programs nurturing and preparing students for med school. I don't know that this applies to JazzyMom's dd (who it sounds like has had a really solid math path and is well prepared overall, even if she should maybe add a single course to help boost her profile and preparedness), but if I had a kid who had an okay but not super driven high school sequence but who wanted to attend med school, I'd be looking at LAC's with nurturing pre-med programs. Not all people who become doctors are top at every level of schooling they do. And not all doctors come from super competitive large undergrad universities either. 

[daijobu]

45 minutes ago, calbear said:

I noticed that PAH has a new teacher offering AP Bio with a live class meeting now in addition to the one that shall not be named. Ivonne Heapy is the instructor. 

Thank you for the news.  I will stop discouraging students from taking this class.  Fingers cross the course earns better reviews, and gives homeschoolers another option for AP bio.  

[Roadrunner]

25 minutes ago, Farrar said:

In terms of the path to med school though... some small colleges have higher admit rates and strong programs nurturing and preparing students for med school. I don't know that this applies to JazzyMom's dd (who it sounds like has had a really solid math path and is well prepared overall, even if she should maybe add a single course to help boost her profile and preparedness), but if I had a kid who had an okay but not super driven high school sequence but who wanted to attend med school, I'd be looking at LAC's with nurturing pre-med programs. Not all people who become doctors are top at every level of schooling they do. And not all doctors come from super competitive large undergrad universities either. 

Rhodes comes to mind! 

[SoCal_Bear]

11 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Thank you for the news.  I will stop discouraging students from taking this class.  Fingers cross the course earns better reviews, and gives homeschoolers another option for AP bio.  

Just to clarify, the instructor who shall not be named is still teaching as well. Just be specific about which one you are NOT recommending. Unfortunately, the course is at a terrible time for West Coasters.

Edited May 26, 2021 by calbear

[Farrar]

32 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Rhodes comes to mind! 

Yep! Exactly one of the ones I was thinking of!

[JazzyMom]

4 hours ago, calbear said:

I noticed that PAH has a new teacher offering AP Bio with a live class meeting now in addition to the one that shall not be named. Ivonne Heapy is the instructor. 

Are there reviews for her somewhere?  I did a search but didn’t find any threads with her name.  This is actually the instructor I was thinking about using.

Blue Tent is in the evening, so there is no way we will be able to get it to work with her schedule.

[SoCal_Bear]

She's brand new AFAIK to the platform. Maybe you can write to her and ask her for a sample class to watch. That's a pretty common request these days. 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by calbear

[SoCal_Bear]

I don't recall seeing you say whether or not you are solely looking at secular providers, but I will tell you that there is an AP bio class at Wilson Hill Academy taught by Sylvia Chen. I know she has been teaching there for years at this point because I remember seeing her name when we first started with them for Latin 3 years ago. For the most part, the instructors at WHA tend to get good reviews on here. It seems like they are pretty selective in their hiring process.

[MamaSprout]

8 hours ago, Frances said:

So many students change their mind about medical school (my son and two nieces are three recent examples for me, all with the grades, test scores, and ECs to be admitted and at the very top of their college graduating classes). My husband also never attended despite being admitted two different times. I think the most common advice is to have a strong back up plan if either you aren’t admitted or change your mind. I’m not sure I would choose a major because it looks good for medical school or because a higher percentage of students with that major are admitted to medical school, but rather based on what major a student really wants to pursue and gives them good back up options. The one recent grad I know who is in medical school and was accepted everywhere he applied was a Biology major.

Yes, but if  a student finishes in biomedical, that's a very employable field. Biology is employable, but not as lucrative without graduate school.

I also know a biology (premed focus)-major-now-doctor that was a high school friend of my older boys. I'm not saying it can't be done.

ETA my current doctor's undergraduate was in actuarial science... so there clearly is no one path.

Edited May 26, 2021 by MamaSprout

[MamaSprout]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I thought it was all about MCAT and a GPA for required courses. I didn’t realize the major mattered that much. I know music majors who did all their electives in science and got into med schools. I feel ancient now. 😞

Honestly I think it's just more competitive? I don't think there's any one path, although the MCAT and GPA really matter.

As a parent looking at schools for a potential engineering students, I am see a lot of them offering "engineering for professional degrees" programs. I think because of ABET there's a rigor and consistency that med and law schools like.

[Frances]

7 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

Yes, but if  a student finishes in biomedical, that's a very employable field. Biology is employable, but not as lucrative without graduate school.

I also know a biology (premed focus)-major-now-doctor that was a high school friend of my older boys. I'm not saying it can't be done.

ETA my current doctor's undergraduate was in actuarial science... so there clearly is no one path.

I thought the OPs daughter was planning a biochemistry major? Also, many colleges do not have engineering let alone biomedical engineering. So if someone was going to choose a school based on that major, I would hope they are sure it is what they really want. My niece who majored in biology and math was very much encouraged to pursue engineering during high school. But taking the engineering elective at her high school made her realize it was not what she wanted to do. Although my high school didn’t offer such an elective, I was also strongly encouraged by many to consider engineering due to my math skills. Knowing everything I do now about the field, I know without a doubt it would have been a terrible fit for me. And we both ultimately had wonderful experiences at small LACs where engineering was not an option except for 3/2 programs.

So while I don’t disagree that there are likely many majors that will be a better back up plan than Biology, personally I think engineering needs to be explored pretty thoroughly before college before choosing it or choosing a college based on it. The biggest major I personally would discourage for pre-med is health science type ones where you are only basically taking the general pre-health electives and no other upper division classes. Unless the back up plan is pursuing other health careers, it doesn’t even leave open the possibility of grad school without further course work.

I remember reading once that Classics majors had the highest acceptance rate to medical school. For me personally, it would be a toss up as to what would be a worse fit, that or engineering.

[Frances]

16 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I thought it was all about MCAT and a GPA for required courses. I didn’t realize the major mattered that much. I know music majors who did all their electives in science and got into med schools. I feel ancient now. 😞

Music would be a great major for a premed if they had the ability and interest and thought it was a good back up plan. Lots of medical schools want all different types of diversity and and to put together an interesting class. Hooks can matter, just as they do for selective undergrad admissions. My husband was straight up told by Harvard Medical School that they were interested in him due to his Art major (he was also a Chemistry major). They called him after his application had been received, but not yet his MCAT scores.

[JazzyMom]

Thanks for the information about majors.

I asked my daughter what she would want to major in if she didn’t major in biology or biochemistry, and she said Spanish.  This doesn’t seem more practical than a biology degree.  What do you think?

I asked what career she would choose if she being a doctor was not an option.  She said athletic trainer or sports management.  Neither of these seem better than biology to me, but I don’t know how to guide her on this.

She loves science, languages, sports, writing, kids (most of her ECs are along these lines).  She has been in a classical co-op, and said she does not want to do anything with classics or liberal arts.

I told her we could spend some time looking at various degree plans.

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by JazzyMom

[Matryoshka]

3 minutes ago, JazzyMom said:

Thanks for the information about majors.

I asked my daughter what she would want to major in if she didn’t major in biology or biochemistry, and she said Spanish.  This doesn’t seem more practical than a biology degree.  What do you think?

I asked what career she would choose if she being a doctor was not an option.  She said athletic trainer or sports management.  Neither of these seem better than biology to me, but I don’t know how to guide her on this.

She loves science, languages, sports, writing, kids (most of her ECs are along these lines).  She has been in a classical co-op, and said she does not want to do anything with classics or liberal arts.

I told her we could spend some time looking at various degree plans.

Do you need an advanced degree to do training or sports management?  If not, that's a better back-up degree just by dint of being usable right out of the gate.  

Or maybe PT?  The pre-reqs for PT school are very similar to the Pre-Med pre-reqs, and also have some overlap with athletic training.

One of my kids did undergrad majors (more than one!) that require advanced degrees to be useful, and now they've pivoted and are having to go back and get the pre-reqs for a different advanced degree (PT, ironically).  

As for Spanish, will she have the AP?  If you can place out of the first two semesters, it's pretty easy to get a minor.  Bilingual doctors are a good thing.

[JazzyMom]

She has DE Spanish 1 & 2.  A Spanish minor is a good idea!

[Roadrunner]

Can you work for biotech industry with a biology degree?

[8filltheheart]

Bio degrees are a dime a dozen due to so many not ending up going to med school. It makes well paying employment options limited. 

If she us interested in sports training, this info might help: http://www.athletictraining.ches.ua.edu/

Spanish for a dr is definitely a good choice, but as a degree on it's own, more difficult. 

Public health requires a masters, but it is highly employable (a niece went this route after deciding against med school.) This is the program she attended https://www.jhsph.edu/academics/degree-programs/master-of-public-health/program-overview/full-time.html

[Shelydon]

My daughter got into all the universities she applied for as a microbiology major without any AP classes.  In my state, Physical Science is not a high school science, so she did Biology, Chem, Physics, A&P and one semester of genetics.  She took 24 hours of dual credit  and had a 4.0 and a good ACT score.  Unfortunately the university that offered her the most scholarship (and the one that she chose) was 100% online this year and had truly terrible online lab science courses. She made Bs in both science courses (online was not a good fit) this year and is transferring without any problem to another university.  (Terrible like the prof had Google reading slides to the students and labs weren't graded all semester.  All tests were online and proctored and things like taking too long to write a chemistry problem on your scratch paper would make you fail the test.  The university opted to let each prof decide if the 21-22 classes would be online or in person, and the entire biology and chemistry department opted to have online classes only, including labs, so she is transferring to a much smaller school .)

[regentrude]

4 hours ago, JazzyMom said:

I asked my daughter what she would want to major in if she didn’t major in biology or biochemistry, and she said Spanish.  This doesn’t seem more practical than a biology degree.  What do you think?

I asked what career she would choose if she being a doctor was not an option.  She said athletic trainer or sports management.  Neither of these seem better than biology to me, but I don’t know how to guide her on this.

She loves science, languages, sports, writing, kids (most of her ECs are along these lines).  She has been in a classical co-op, and said she does not want to do anything with classics or liberal arts.

I am an academic advisor and also give department tours for prospective students. I find that it can be paralyzing for 17 and 18 year olds to feel that they have to make the one correct choice about their major or else they are doomed to either be unemployable or spend forty years working in a field they don't like. Many college students change their majors! Part of being in college is encountering new topics, finding new passions, and changing one's mind. It is not a weakness NOT to know exactly what one wants to do with the rest of one's life at that age. 

I would encourage her to choose a college that is not too narrowly specialized and offers options for major changes. My DS started as an athletic training major, discovered that, while a passionate athlete, he hated the extensive memorizing; he switched to physics and loves it. My DD could not make up her mind whether to major in physics or humanities and ended up doing both in four years. 
I teach a class for biology majors. Some of my students end up going to med school, some to vet or dental school, others to grad school as wildlife biologists, for cognitive neuroscience, for genetics. Some switch majors to something else. And some of my engineering studens realize that engineering isn't for them and they want to be biologists or English majors.
 

[Writerdaddy]

I'm on the verge of signing up for AP Bio with Ivonne Heapy at PAH. Will report back if I do.

If anyone can find any information (reviews) about her that would be greatly appreciated.

[JazzyMom]

My dd did sign up for Heapy’s AP Bio class.  I never found any reviews.  Just praying it works out.  I’ll report back, as well.

[Writerdaddy]

I don't know how aware people are of UC Scout AP Classes. Sounds great, it's University of California, but we are doing two now, AP Physics for S22 and AP Biology for D22, and will be dropping them and losing the money due to the poor teaching not aligned with tests, resulting in bad grades that are doing no one any good for the future. They have no idea how to create online courses. The old-time PAH teachers do. However the new Bio teacher, who knows...

[Roadrunner]

31 minutes ago, Writerdaddy said:

I don't know how aware people are of UC Scout AP Classes. Sounds great, it's University of California, but we are doing two now, AP Physics for S22 and AP Biology for D22, and will be dropping them and losing the money due to the poor teaching not aligned with tests, resulting in bad grades that are doing no one any good for the future. They have no idea how to create online courses. The old-time PAH teachers do. However the new Bio teacher, who knows...

I am so glad to see your review. We often wonder here if they are any good, and your review confirms my suspicions. 
I am going to guess people who find UC Scout good are the same ones who seem to like online platforms with what I call “click away” education. 

 

[Writerdaddy]

I think if you pay 29$ you can get the videos from the classes for self study, but not the assignments or test questions. We are in-state and get that $29 waived. At the very least, no one should put down money without putting the $29 for the "basic" version down first.

So I've also sampled other classes videos for free, but there's no way to tell how the videos and assignments and tests match up for those. None of it looks promising, although that could be just as much about the vacuous nature of AP content in general as it is about UC Scout.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Writerdaddy

[GoodGrief3]

On 7/30/2021 at 11:10 PM, JazzyMom said:

My dd did sign up for Heapy’s AP Bio class.  I never found any reviews.  Just praying it works out.  I’ll report back, as well.

I am late to this, but wanted to chime in with my experience even though it seems like you have chosen a path 🙂

I'm not clear on what sort of colleges your daughter is considering. For the vast majority of colleges, without single or low double acceptance rates, I think she will do just fine without an AP on the transcript. And honestly, for colleges with super low acceptance rates, I'm not sure that the addition of a single AP science course during senior year is going to be a make or break factor for acceptance or scholarships, biology major or otherwise.

My second daughter's high school science was fairly basic, though she did have AP Biology with the instructor that people don't seem to care for in this thread. 🙂 Her other sciences were Apologia chemistry and physics with a local co-op, and then AP Comp Sci with AP Homeschoolers. I found out later that was not really considered science, but more math. Oh well 🙂 No science or math extra-curriculars, She did do a fair amount of standardized testing though (subject tests and the AP Bio exam), and unfortunately that is not much of an option now. All that to say, she had zero issues with acceptances at competitive universities as a potential engineering major, and was awarded the highly competitive Stamps scholarship at Georgia Tech (ultimately did not attend there, so she did not accept it). She is beginning grad school for biomedical engineering at Duke this fall.

With or without the AP Bio, your daughter will likely do just fine in college, and may even find that she has some wonderful options. 🙂

However, now here I am struggling to figure out a senior year science for my last daughter, and considering that AP Bio from AP Homeschoolers because it looks like the AP Bio at the high school will not work out as far as schedule. This kid also says she wants to be a science major, and I don't feel like she has had a single great, inspiring science class. She's a different student from her sister, so different factors to consider. Not worried about the college acceptance piece of it though. That part will be fine, as her aspirations are not too high 🙂

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 5/22/2021 at 3:35 PM, JazzyMom said:

Thank you all for the ideas!

If she were to add a non AP science as an elective, would it be listed on the transcripts under science or electives.  I have her courses grouped by subject.

I would put it in the Science section. It's fine to have more than 4 science credits. 

I would use an Electives section for courses that did not fall into a core subject area. 

[JazzyMom]

10 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

I am late to this, but wanted to chime in with my experience even though it seems like you have chosen a path 🙂

I'm not clear on what sort of colleges your daughter is considering. For the vast majority of colleges, without single or low double acceptance rates, I think she will do just fine without an AP on the transcript. And honestly, for colleges with super low acceptance rates, I'm not sure that the addition of a single AP science course during senior year is going to be a make or break factor for acceptance or scholarships, biology major or otherwise.

My second daughter's high school science was fairly basic, though she did have AP Biology with the instructor that people don't seem to care for in this thread. 🙂 Her other sciences were Apologia chemistry and physics with a local co-op, and then AP Comp Sci with AP Homeschoolers. I found out later that was not really considered science, but more math. Oh well 🙂 No science or math extra-curriculars, She did do a fair amount of standardized testing though (subject tests and the AP Bio exam), and unfortunately that is not much of an option now. All that to say, she had zero issues with acceptances at competitive universities as a potential engineering major, and was awarded the highly competitive Stamps scholarship at Georgia Tech (ultimately did not attend there, so she did not accept it). She is beginning grad school for biomedical engineering at Duke this fall.

With or without the AP Bio, your daughter will likely do just fine in college, and may even find that she has some wonderful options. 🙂

However, now here I am struggling to figure out a senior year science for my last daughter, and considering that AP Bio from AP Homeschoolers because it looks like the AP Bio at the high school will not work out as far as schedule. This kid also says she wants to be a science major, and I don't feel like she has had a single great, inspiring science class. She's a different student from her sister, so different factors to consider. Not worried about the college acceptance piece of it though. That part will be fine, as her aspirations are not too high 🙂

Wow!  Your dd did great!

My dd isn’t applying to any selective colleges.  She *should* be accepted everywhere she applies.  We’re really hoping she has a chance at some of the large, competitive scholarships at these schools, so my main concern is about how she’ll stack up against some of these students with tons of AP’s.  And you’re right that 1 AP class isn’t likely to make or break that.  I am trying not to worry so much.

[GoodGrief3]

7 hours ago, JazzyMom said:

Wow!  Your dd did great!

My dd isn’t applying to any selective colleges.  She *should* be accepted everywhere she applies.  We’re really hoping she has a chance at some of the large, competitive scholarships at these schools, so my main concern is about how she’ll stack up against some of these students with tons of AP’s.  And you’re right that 1 AP class isn’t likely to make or break that.  I am trying not to worry so much.

I hear you! My upcoming college applicant is not one that is obviously competitive for those big scholarships (that open up more options!) I find myself looking for ways she can maximize her strengths for some of the better automatic merit scholarships.

And it is me considering ways she can beef up her app, because my experience is that even kids that know what they want don't necessarily understand all the little tips and tricks that can get them there. My oldest daughter was pretty independent in her college search, and toward the end of it, I realized I should have been more involved. It turned out fine, but we could have done better financially if I had paid attention.

[Writerdaddy]

Looks like we are not going through with the PAH online AP Bio class for my D22, so we're in the boat of "science major without AP Bio."

She can stick with the line "her school only offers AP Calc and AP Art so that's what she has." I don't know how bad that is. Well, I'm sure it's not "bad," but compared to the AP rich student she's competing with for merit scholarships, it might not be very good. And she's going test-optional. Or maybe she shouldn't even declare a science major, and switch later? I don't believe that's been discussed on this thread. 

Her twin brother is going to apply to some of the same schools although he will have an online AP class.

I wonder if these days AOs looking at courses available to a student think "Why didn't this kid go online to get AP classes?" or is that too new or even too unpredictable as to "rigor."

Edited August 7, 2021 by Writerdaddy

[JazzyMom]

Just an update in case someone finds this thread later...  The PAH class did work out for us as the heavy workload did not fit dd’s already full schedule.  AP Bio was an add on for her, and she was not planning to take the exam.  She dropped the class in favor of Thinkwell, which seems to be a much better fit for her needs (background knowledge in preparation for the college class).  
 

The AP instructor seemed good and knowledgeable, but the workload was extremely heavy.  A classmate, who had previously aced several APs, later contacted dd to let her know he had also dropped the class due to workload.  Also, a friend’s dd is taking DE Bio for Science Majors at the local CC, and the workload was much lighter than DD’s class.  I doubt any of my kids will take AP’s again.

Edited October 15, 2021 by JazzyMom

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, JazzyMom said:

Just an update in case someone finds this thread later...  The PAH class did work out for us as the heavy workload did not fit dd’s already full schedule.  AP Bio was an add on for her, and she was not planning to take the exam.  She dropped the class in favor of Thinkwell, which seems to be a much better fit for her needs (background knowledge in preparation for the college class).  
 

The AP instructor seemed good and knowledgeable, but the workload was extremely heavy.  A classmate, who had previously aced several APs, later contacted dd to let her know he had also dropped the class due to workload.  Also, a friend’s dd is taking DE Bio for Science Majors at the local CC, and the workload was much lighter than DD’s class.  I doubt any of my kids will take AP’s again.

I am curious about the workload in terms of hours. I am debating between Bluetent and PA Homeschoolers. 

I looked at the local CC and the bio class is too much. 4 hours class time plus 3 hours lab in class brings it to 7 hours total. Plus 8 hours or so of study time. And then 4 hours of commute for us. I am thinking AP bio looks better for us. 

[JazzyMom]

It was supposed to take around 10 hours per week, but it was taking my dd much longer than that to complete all of the assignments.  The last week dd attended, I counted 18 assignments due for that week.  The teacher received several complaints and was planning to adjust the workload moving forward, but I could see the class was more than my dd needed, so she went ahead and withdrew.  Thinkwell is taking less than 1 hour per day.

[JazzyMom]

Just an update because I find them helpful when searching old threads…

DD dropped PAH AP biology and did Thinkwell on her own.  She did not take the test.

Her other high school science courses were Apologia physical science, biology, and chemistry, Derek Owens honors physics.

She was awarded a Stamps scholarship to Ole Miss.  She just completed freshman year with A’s in bio 1, bio 2, chem 1, and an A- in chem 2.

She does not believe the AP course she took was a factor in doing well.  I doubt I will have any of my other kids do APs.

Edited May 17, 2023 by JazzyMom