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How to advocate for subject acceleration at new school?


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Posted (edited)

Update: Old title: How to register 12 year old in ACT exam?

New title: How to advocate for subject acceleration at new school?

It won't be possible to do ACT this summer, so really now we're asking for any advice generally on how to advocate for subject acceleration at new school (i.e. grade 9 coursework while in grade 7) - an ACT test, if possible, was to have been one way to make that case.

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Original post:

We were planning to register our 12 year daughter old in the ACT exam scheduled for 17th July 2021 (and it's getting late, as some centers are full). However when I went to open an online account to register online I found you can't make an online account for children under 13. Can anyone tell me how to register at this age? Our daughter is switching to a virtual charter school, and the scores will help her get appropriate subject acceleration (1-2 years - the school would be willing, but they need evidence of readiness level). Thanks.

 

 

Edited by HomeForNow
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According to their website:

You will need to create an ACT account to register for tests, make changes to your registrations, view your scores, send score reports, order test preparation materials, and more.

(Note: If you are younger than 13, your parent or guardian cannot create an ACT account for you, contact ACT customer support for assistance.

All services ordered online must be paid for with a valid American Express, DISCOVER, MasterCard, or VISA card (or with approved ACT fee waiver or voucher). Note: If you are younger than 13, your parent or guardian cannot create an ACT account in order to place an order online for you. Ask your parent or guardian to contact ACT at 319.337.1270 for assistance.
 

 

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You can also do it through a talent search. It costs more, but norms the scores for you against other out-of-level testers. We used NUMATs out of Northwestern University. I'm not sure who covers the western United States.

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Given the timeline (wanting to do ACT on 17th July 2021, with nearest sites full, but still some within an hours drive), what is our best path to getting in? (Our 15yo son has an ACT account so we can see what's available in that account, but 12yo daughter cannot get such an account.)

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The three ways to do it are 1)-make a clerical error on your 12 yr old's birthdate (I know someone who's son did the SAT first at "107") and then adjust it on the account once she's 13

2) Sign up through CTY. There will be a fee attached, but it's probably the easiest way. NUMATS or Belin-Blank may be an option as well

3) Call the ACT folks and request a paper registration form. You may not have enough time to do that now. 

 

I've done 2 and 3 at various times, but it was all pre-COVID. If they are keeping to the smaller numbers and spacing they were using last Fall, finding a test site may be difficult. It took until November to get a test site for a graduating senior because so many were closed and they were prioritizing kids who had no prior scores-since L had scores from Talent Search testing, we got bumped several times. 

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I hope it's okay for me to add me own related question here.

I had always assumed that our kids would do the SAT in 7th grade through Duke TIP like DH and I both did at that age (and I attended one of their summer programs). But now that DD#1 is heading into 7th grade, it looks like Duke has suspended the program. Am I understanding that I can sign her up for something like NUMATS even though we're in Florida? Or should I just sign her up to take it independently? 

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Posted (edited)

What are the reasons for having a middle schooler take the ACT or SAT? Is it mainly to qualify for the gifted programs like TIP? It seems like the gifted programs, even if you qualify, cost a lot if money. Do people find that the financial outlay is worth it?

ETA I saw the Op is seeking testing to ensure accurate class placement for their new school. I’m wondering what the other reasons for middle school ACT /SAT testing might be, as my impression is that it’s commonly done

Edited by WTM
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@WTM As I said, I participated in one of the TIP summer programs myself when I was in school. It was an experience I'm glad to have had. I'm not certain that I want my kids to do something similar (like you said, they are expensive!), but I like the thought of keeping the door open if possible.

Also, I give my kids a standardized test every year. One reason for that is familiarity with taking tests of that format so that when the tests matter, the kids will already have a general idea of how such tests work. With my oldest, I feel like it's a decent time for her to switch from the Iowa tests I've always given to the SAT (or ACT). Still low stakes, but a chance to build familiarity. It worked well for me as a student.

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I have tried phoning ACT at 319-337-1270 (four times - after a wait, two got cut off, and two times I got through to a human, but they didn't seem to know what they were talking about) and I emailed to act-cares@act.org and what I am being told is that a 12-year-old cannot make an online account (that part is true) and that therefore they cannot register for ACT through ACT and have to go through a talent search. I am skeptical about the impossibility of registering through ACT. I found a helpful blog here

http://www.profoundlygiftedparenting.com/act-sat-testing-for-students-under-13/

and they said there is at least a paper form process for registering under-13s through ACT, and that it could maybe be sped up using email rather than snailmail. Has anyone registered in the past like this? I'd rather do it directly through ACT itself rather than going through a talent search, as that seems like an extra complication, but we'll have to see what can work.

 

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We have done it with a paper form pre-pandemic, but that was long enough ago that it may have changed. At the time, I could just go to the public library and pick up a form. 

 

And yes, you can register with any talent search. I suggest trying Belin-Blank. They do not have extra fees to join, unlike CTY.

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6 hours ago, WTM said:

What are the reasons for having a middle schooler take the ACT or SAT? Is it mainly to qualify for the gifted programs like TIP? It seems like the gifted programs, even if you qualify, cost a lot if money. Do people find that the financial outlay is worth it?

ETA I saw the Op is seeking testing to ensure accurate class placement for their new school. I’m wondering what the other reasons for middle school ACT /SAT testing might be, as my impression is that it’s commonly done

DH always said that having test scores opened doors for him. He was in school, of course, so maybe that’s different... but I’d guess that’s a common experience.

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Thanks @Dmmetler - I'll look into that one.

 

I was looking at an old thread earlier today and saw that in some places, colleges only allow dual enrollment for kids in 11th & 12th grades, but with SAT/ACT scores a student can do college courses earlier than that as a non-degree-seeking student. So that might be another reason for people to choose to have middle school kids take these tests, if that's how it works where they live.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, purpleowl said:

Thanks @Dmmetler - I'll look into that one.

 

I was looking at an old thread earlier today and saw that in some places, colleges only allow dual enrollment for kids in 11th & 12th grades, but with SAT/ACT scores a student can do college courses earlier than that as a non-degree-seeking student. So that might be another reason for people to choose to have middle school kids take these tests, if that's how it works where they live.

That was probably me. My state limits DE to age 16 and junior standing. Non-degree seeking status required walking in with an ACT that was way above the typical student at that school and a 7th grade homemade transcript/course description list. We figure that if Pinkie Py(thon) slithered in with an ACT score in the high 20's+, they'd probably take him, too! 

 

We did the ACT early to apply for a specific middle/high school program. That didn't work out, but it did for Early admission to college classes. In general, I think it's worth doing, if you can get in to do it. In addition, while SET hasn't been super valuable here (we have counseling and support services through several programs, but none of them seem really well set up for a kid with mine's specific interest profile, and we have gotten better support from folks in that field), that requires an SAT score before age 13 to prove eligibility. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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Now I am told by email from ACT that paper registration for under-13s is something they used to do, but not any more, and that under-13s now cannot register through ACT at all, and can only go through a talent search.

I will try to contact the talent searches. (I had heard of them a long time ago, but never used them.) Is the potential list: CTY, Belin-Blank, NUMATS, Duke-TIP? (I couldn't find anything on the Duke-TIP, and someone above said it's defunct - is that right?)

 

 

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EPGY used to be another, but it might have been absorbed into Stanford OHS/Pre-College programs.  In general, you can register through any, and then send scores as needed. The big ones, like CTY, TIPS (which closed in response to COVID, and who knows if it will come back), NUMATS, etc had awards and the like. BESTS is mostly research based, although they have some summer programs, but honestly have been the most responsive and the most financially affordable of any of the options. I think Quark was the one who recommended it, years back when I wanted L to do the EXPLORE. TIPS wouldn't allow it before 5th, CTY had their own test, Belin-Blank responded to my e-mail with grade level standardized test scores and said "yeah, you need an out of level test, registered L in 4th, and then changed the grade level manually to 2nd, warning me that we'd get comparisons to 4th grade scores, since they didn't have ones for 2nd.  They're also in Iowa City, along with the ACT folks, which might be one reason why they can be a little more flexible at times. 

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12 hours ago, WTM said:

What are the reasons for having a middle schooler take the ACT or SAT? Is it mainly to qualify for the gifted programs like TIP? It seems like the gifted programs, even if you qualify, cost a lot if money. Do people find that the financial outlay is worth it?

Like others I took the SAT in 7th grade as part of TIP.  I hated the Duke program I participated in.  But taking the SAT in 7th grade at once reassured me that I could earn a high score in high school, while also alerting me to my lower verbal scores.   The SAT was not a very stressful event in the 1980s, but having scored reasonably well in 7th grade served to completely demystify the exam.  

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So the feedback I now have: ACT says under-13s cannot create online account, and therefore cannot register through ACT at all, as they offer no other method. They suggested contacting talent searches instead.

A couple of talent searches said that ACT has told them that these talent searches are not allowed to register anyone up to 8th grade (one said up to 9th), saying that 11-12th graders are being prioritized due to previous backlogs. They suggested contacting ACT instead.

Although it sounds a bit runaround-ish, it all sounds plausible, so it's not looking like our 12 year old daughter will get to take the ACT this summer, even though half the testing centers in our area still have seats. Oh well, this was mainly to try to get the right level course lineup at the new school, so we'll have to make the case for that some other way.


(For anyone reading this in the future, these restrictions appear to be temporary.)

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8 hours ago, HomeForNow said:

So the feedback I now have: ACT says under-13s cannot create online account, and therefore cannot register through ACT at all, as they offer no other method. They suggested contacting talent searches instead.

A couple of talent searches said that ACT has told them that these talent searches are not allowed to register anyone up to 8th grade (one said up to 9th), saying that 11-12th graders are being prioritized due to previous backlogs. They suggested contacting ACT instead.

Although it sounds a bit runaround-ish, it all sounds plausible, so it's not looking like our 12 year old daughter will get to take the ACT this summer, even though half the testing centers in our area still have seats. Oh well, this was mainly to try to get the right level course lineup at the new school, so we'll have to make the case for that some other way.


(For anyone reading this in the future, these restrictions appear to be temporary.)

If you are looking at considering other testing ideas that might show out-of-grade-level mastery, we did the online  NWEA MAP Growth test to meet our state testing requirements this year (and the past couple of years) and it can go through high school level material in all subjects. (And into "college level" passages for the reading test - it gave my 12 year old a lexile level that's apparently considered post high school? I mean, I take it with a grain of salt, but it's there).  It's a test that public schools also use, so it would have some "cred" with most schools I think.   It's adaptive, so it keeps getting harder if the student answers correctly.

For math, you can choose end-of-course exams for Alg 1/Alg 2/Geom if that's helpful, or just a standard math test that potentially goes as high as Alg 2/Pre-Calc level material.   This year I had my 8th grader do the Alg 2. end-of-course exam, as he has self-studied Alg 2 (while also taking a geometry class). We used it as prep for the "exam for credit" that he will have to take in order to get out of Alg 2 and start Pre-Calc next year when he enters public school.  Unfortunately due to the way our state's graduation requirements are worded, he has to take this school-administered exam-for-credit and they won't take his excellent MAP score as proof, but it is giving us piece of mind that he studied well that he got 97th percentile on this test and still has two more months to study before the actual exam. 

 I booked the MAP test here:  https://homeschoolboss.com/
 

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Totally out of the box, but do you have any community colleges that do the residual ACT? Some of the CC's here use it as a way to admit students who have not had the chance to take a regular ACT, or who need accommodations but don't have time to get them approved AND take the test before the cutoff dates. It doesn't give a score on the official score report, but the breakdown might be helpful in advocacy, especially if one of the reasons for doing it is potential college class enrollment. 

 

Hopefully the restrictions will lift soon. Having said that, as a parent of a 2021 grad who ended up applying with talent search scores, I understand why they are doing it. This past fall, it was very, very difficult to find a seat at all, and while many schools were test optional for admissions, they decidedly weren't for scholarships, leaving a lot of seniors who had planned to take the test in the Spring/Summer stuck when so many test sites were closed and those that were open were often only able to take 5-6 kids per room. 

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Thanks for the feedback everyone. It looks like ACT is out for now, but I'm still interested in ideas for how to get appropriate level course lineup (whether via testing or anything else).

Some more details. In the Fall our 12 year old daughter is switching to a virtual K-12 charter school, to start grade 7. They are open to subject acceleration, (it's logistically easy for them) but they need evidence that it is appropriate. In grade 7 we would want "typical grade 9 level courses" in all subjects, such as Algebra 1 (she's done prealgebra, so that should be justifiable), and similarly for other subjects, though for those, while she has had adequate preparation, it's not so clear how to prove it. She has not formally done any high school courses, but is ready to start them now. In a few years she will hopefully switch to a somewhat selective public school that offers courses up to 2nd year college level, so the aim is to have her on track to reach those. She would then start college at the normal age, so staying in the regular grade while doing more advanced coursework.

I was hoping ACT would be available and would help. Her brother had from his school an online account with some practice ACT tests (by a 3rd party, not ACT, but I believe they are accurate). There were some left unused so our daughter took one, without preparation, and got English-32, Reading-32, Science-27, Math-25, Composite-29. If she could have got this on a real ACT then I would think it would help make our case. It's above average for our local university, so it should at least indicate readiness to start beginning level high school subjects. I'm not familiar with all the various possible tests, but it appears that one can get a reasonable score on ACT just based on general academic aptitude without specific high school course content knowledge, so if there are alternative tests, we would want something that shows that kind of profile in a favorable light. She can read/comprehend at a high rate, and seems to be stronger on the verbal/humanities side than the nonverbal/STEM side (and age 5 gifted test also showed this) though she is interested in pursuing STEM areas in college. Anyway, that all may weigh into the choice of test, if there is any choice.

So, any thoughts generally about how to advocate, with or without some testing, for these subject placements?

 

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  • HomeForNow changed the title to How to advocate for subject acceleration at new school?

Take the SAT? In my area, I have seen middle schoolers at very competitive and selective public schools who would like accelerated courses go for the SAT. It is administered a few times a year and it could be taken at more places locally than other tests. Scores in SAT are proof enough for entrance to  various gifted programs. If your daughter does not want to go through SAT, then you could consider private IQ testing.

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For us IQ testing and even Gifted IEP didn't help get any subject acceleration. When we moved to a state that mandates GIEPs, we were excited. However, it turned out GIEP was only enrichment with no actual measurement of progress but arbitrary numbers given by the gifted facilitator/teacher. My kid had the state test scores in the 99th percentile from previous school and was tested by a psychologist at a new school to be in the 99.7th percentile of IQ that qualified him to get a GIEP. At the initial IEP meeting the school staff team refused to offer any grade or subject acceleration giving typical excuses of social maturity and equal treatment with other students even though his academics were far advanced across the board. He was pulled out twice a week to have GEIP sessions to do enrichment such as playing chess, building Mindstorms, and solving puzzles while missing out on specials. For the rest of the school time, he did exactly the same level works as other students did in the class. Heard our GIEP would be done as the same way until grade 8. Your experience might differ. 

We pulled him out to homeschool during the pandemic. He just turned 11 and is about to start high school geometry at home. We are planning to send him to a public high school at a regular age mainly for AP access and extracurricular opportunities (we live in a rural area where outside of school EC activities are scarce). Before then he is going to take ACT to prove his ability so that hopefully he can be placed accordingly in high school. 

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Posted (edited)

I came back to give you a really honest answer about this. Given the current climate and trends in public education, the likelihood that public schools will appropriately accomodate is decreasing. If you have been following trends in public education in the name of equity and access, gifted programs are being outright eliminated, significantly decreased or diluted. Advanced study in mathematics is being done away with as well.

Edited by calbear
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Posted (edited)

FWIW, I can tell you that there is a big uptick in Asians looking into homeschooling who can't afford to pay the cost for private school. This is big deal because Asians who homeschool are outliers in our communities. It really goes against culture for a number of reasons. I also see lots of Asians making the jump to private schools as well to secure a spot for their kids. They are really aware of the trends elsewhere and often live in similar areas and are making decisions because they see what is coming. Education is always a hot button topic in our circles.

Edited by calbear
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1 minute ago, calbear said:

FWIW, I can tell you that there is a big uptick in Asians looking into homeschooling who can't afford to pay the cost for private school. Lots of Asians making the jump to private schools as well. They are really aware of the trends elsewhere and often live in similar areas and are making decisions because they see what is coming. Education is always a hot button topic in our circles.

That's depressing 😕 . I mean, I'm always happy when people start homeschooling for academic reasons, I guess, but I don't want people forced into it. 

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That's depressing 😕 . I mean, I'm always happy when people start homeschooling for academic reasons, I guess, but I don't want people forced into it. 

Actually, I would say the model that will likely be followed will likely be an outsourcing model. While I didn't think that I would migrate towards this as much as I have. My son was asking to do this. Relationally, it is better for us because he really wants a lot more independence right now.

 

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3 minutes ago, calbear said:

Actually, I would say the model that will likely be followed will likely be an outsourcing model. While I didn't think that I would migrate towards this as much as I have. My son was asking to do this. Relationally, it is better for us because he really wants a lot more independence right now.

Ah, that one's a nonnegotiable for me -- relationally, it might be better for us (it almost certainly would be), but it's not an option for me not to teach my kids. 

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Posted (edited)

Do you have Cogat or iReady scores? When my son started at the charter school, he took the iReady at the start of school year, base on his scores they offered us a choice of a grade skip or subject acceleration. Charter school are much easier to work with than a public school. 

Edited by SDMomof3
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7 minutes ago, calbear said:

Actually, I would say the model that will likely be followed will likely be an outsourcing model. While I didn't think that I would migrate towards this as much as I have. My son was asking to do this. Relationally, it is better for us because he really wants a lot more independence right now.

 

I find this to be true with my ds. He is 13 and wants to learn from someone other than mom. 

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9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, that one's a nonnegotiable for me -- relationally, it might be better for us (it almost certainly would be), but it's not an option for me not to teach my kids. 

This was not a problem when he was younger, but honestly, you can not predict what the tween/teen years will look like. I could not have predicted my sweet, agreeable boy would be the way he is right now. I still teach my kid but in only certain subjects. 

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Just now, calbear said:

This was not a problem when he was younger, but honestly, you can not predict what the tween/teen years will look like. I could not have predicted my sweet, agreeable boy would be the way he is right now. I still teach my kid but in only certain subjects. 

Ah, well, I suppose she could get even worse. But she's not sweet and agreeable as is, so I do appreciate the issue. 

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On 5/21/2021 at 6:03 PM, HomeForNow said:

We were planning to register our 12 year daughter old in the ACT exam scheduled for 17th July 2021 (and it's getting late, as some centers are full). However when I went to open an online account to register online I found you can't make an online account for children under 13. Can anyone tell me how to register at this age? Our daughter is switching to a virtual charter school, and the scores will help her get appropriate subject acceleration (1-2 years - the school would be willing, but they need evidence of readiness level). Thanks.

 

My new 11th grader has always been 3 grade levels ahead in math ( SAT 730M at 13. y..o), but we never sought acceleration.  Be aware that a two level  accelleratiion could bite at  the tail end.  Finishing calculus in 10th grade would mean  having to find and take college level math  for 11th and 12th grade regardless of whether there is still the affiniity or inclination.  There is big plus in not jumping ahead at school.  Since all math is simply review, he has 1-1.5 hours of homework time free to work on other subjects or play sports. 

On 5/21/2021 at 6:03 PM, HomeForNow said:

 

 

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Just now, gstharr said:

Finishing calculus in 10th grade would mean  having to find and take college level math  for 11th and 12th grade regardless of whether there is still the affiniity or inclination. 

It's not like it's hard to find math "above" calculus... 

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It  can be challenging, if you are not homeshcooling.  In the 11th grader's case, his school will not accept outside credits towards graduation requirements.  But even if it did, I could not commute him from school to a college campus for the class.

 

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19 minutes ago, gstharr said:

It  can be challenging, if you are not homeshcooling.  In the 11th grader's case, his school will not accept outside credits towards graduation requirements.  But even if it did, I could not commute him from school to a college campus for the class.

Ah, I see what you mean. In this situation, you’re right that it wouldn’t make sense.

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2 hours ago, gstharr said:

It  can be challenging, if you are not homeshcooling.  In the 11th grader's case, his school will not accept outside credits towards graduation requirements.  But even if it did, I could not commute him from school to a college campus for the class.

 

Would they let him do the Georgia Tech Distance math program? 
 

https://admission.gatech.edu/dualenrollment/distance-math-programs

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1 hour ago, gstharr said:

 

My new 11th grader has always been 3 grade levels ahead in math ( SAT 730M at 13. y..o), but we never sought acceleration.  Be aware that a two level  accelleratiion could bite at  the tail end.  Finishing calculus in 10th grade would mean  having to find and take college level math  for 11th and 12th grade regardless of whether there is still the affiniity or inclination.  There is big plus in not jumping ahead at school.  Since all math is simply review, he has 1-1.5 hours of homework time free to work on other subjects or play sports. 

 

This is what we're going to do. My kid will most likely have to take algebra II again in grade 9 at a local high school after finishing it at home in middle school because that's the fastest math track the high school offers. This school doesn't have any math class or accept outside credits beyond AP Calculus BC and AP Statistics. Same for science classes. For him, at least, math and science will be easy As and it will free up time to focus more on other subjects and extracurricular activities during the high school. He is not considering an engineering major. 

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36 minutes ago, Caroline said:

Would they let him do the Georgia Tech Distance math program? 
 

https://admission.gatech.edu/dualenrollment/distance-math-programs

Thanks for information. But, after finishing college calculus 1 and 2 online, we switched to accelerating the the sciences. He after- schools  AP science the year bebore taking the class at school.  We just opened AP physic c.  It will be completed before his senior year.  The end of the road for our after-schooling venture. 

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(OP here) Wow, lots of comments. Thanks for the test suggestions - I will look into them as to which are suitable and available. 12yo daughter is now accepted in the virtual public charter (it's not selective but can get full so admission was likely but not certain). They do offer subject acceleration and make this known (they want to attract good students) but nevertheless need to see justification. The (age 5) gifted evaluation gets the conversation started and taken seriously, but they need some more recent evidence of readiness for the desired courses. I should find out exactly what they want (but was hoping to come in with a test score already done). Actually there may be tests the school itself administers. One nerve-wracking aspect of this is that we need to officially drop the old school and accept the new school now, but we don't really have certainty about the assigned courses until the beginning of the next semester. We just have to take the risk of jumping schools. But sometimes you have to take risks.

To the comments about if you do Alg 1 in grade 7, what do you do in later grades - the plan is to later switch to a somewhat selective public school (available at higher grades) that offers high level courses that to be on track to reach you would need to be doing Alg 1 in grade 7, so the plan makes sense.

I have heard about some places wanting to eliminate all differentiation in education, but I think we are safe here for now.

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2 hours ago, gstharr said:

Thanks for information. But, after finishing college calculus 1 and 2 online, we switched to accelerating the the sciences. He after- schools  AP science the year bebore taking the class at school.  We just opened AP physic c.  It will be completed before his senior year.  The end of the road for our after-schooling venture. 

Which, to be fair, is one of the points of accelerating math 😉 . Like, the reason I want DD8 to do calculus is so that she can apply it... not just for kicks. She's more of a science/engineering kid than she is a math kid, I think, and I want her to be able to do those at a serious level. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gstharr said:

Thanks for information. But, after finishing college calculus 1 and 2 online, we switched to accelerating the the sciences. He after- schools  AP science the year bebore taking the class at school.  We just opened AP physic c.  It will be completed before his senior year.  The end of the road for our after-schooling venture. 

 

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Which, to be fair, is one of the points of accelerating math 😉 . Like, the reason I want DD8 to do calculus is so that she can apply it... not just for kicks. She's more of a science/engineering kid than she is a math kid, I think, and I want her to be able to do those at a serious level. 

Is calculus a pre-req for AP Physics? I thought you could take them concurrently?  When I did AP Physics in high school, I was taking AP Calculus (AB)  concurrently, and it was fine. I think I got a 5 on the AP physics and, ironically, did worse in AP Calc (4) (if it was a pre-req for physics, you would think I should need to do well in Calc to to well in physics, which wasn’t reflected in my scores). Granted, I loved AP physics, and was meh about AP calc

Edited by WTM
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18 minutes ago, WTM said:

Is calculus a pre-req for AP Physics? I thought you could take them concurrently?  When I did AP Physics in high school, I was taking AP Calculus (AB)  concurrently, and it was fine. I think I got a 5 on the AP physics and, ironically, did worse in AP Calc (4) (if it was a pre-req for physics, you would think I should need to do well in Calc to to well in physics, which wasn’t reflected in my scores). Granted, I loved AP physics, and was meh about AP calc

I don't really care about AP vs non-AP, but to do physics properly, it's best to have calculus from all I've heard. And I say that as someone who never did physics properly. 

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I took AP physics concurrently in high school.  To do the electricity and magnetism parts well requires both intuitive, conceptual development and using multivariable calculus (things like line integrals and integrating over both angles in spherical coordinates).  As a math kid at the time, I focused on the new calculus ideas, rather than either the physics concepts or applications.  Result, 4 on the AP Physics C but so little confidence that I cancelled having the score sent to colleges the day after I took it.

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