Thank you :)

[Ann.without.an.e]

DELETED - I feel pretty confident from the replies that I am on track with my thinking. I just needed to hear that I'm not off base. Thank y'all so much for your help with this. I dont' want to drag the topic out. It seems we ALL agree so that's great 🙂 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ann.without.an.e

[scholastica]

Now. He needs to move out now if he can afford it. Now. This is unhealthy on so many levels. 

[Katy]

That level of control is abusive.  Help him get an apartment if you want.  He probably sees that it's unhealthy and just needs permission to say no.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Does he have access to his personal records?  Birth certificate, social security card, drivers license (if he's been allowed to get one).  Before leaving he needs to get ahold of those by one means or another. 

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, scholastica said:

Now. He needs to move out now if he can afford it. Now. This is unhealthy on so many levels. 

This.   Pack a bag and leave.

[regentrude]

He needs to move out NOW. He doesn't need to have a down-payment for a home - he just needs to make enough to cover rent.

I would expect nothing to change in the next 2-3 years in his family, so waiting would be pointless.

He needs to make sure to have his birth certificate and SSN. Then pack a bag and go.

Edited May 17, 2021 by regentrude

[Jean in Newcastle]

PS - many apartments won't lease to someone that young with no credit history without someone co-signing the lease.  That could be the OP but controlling parents will probably not help him out. 

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

He needs to move out NOW. He doesn't need to have a down-payment for a home - he just needs to make enough to cover rent.

I would expect nothing to change in the next 2-3 years in his family, so waiting would be pointless.

He needs to make sure to have his birth certificate and SSN. Then pack a bag and go.

This.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

This needs to be thought through much more than just a simple "pack a bag and move out".  Adult life is difficult and needs documentation of many things (financial, health, etc. ) in order for someone to live independently successfully. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

That level of control is abusive.  Help him get an apartment if you want.  He probably sees that it's unhealthy and just needs permission to say no.

 

4 minutes ago, scholastica said:

Now. He needs to move out now if he can afford it. Now. This is unhealthy on so many levels. 

 

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Does he have access to his personal records?  Birth certificate, social security card, drivers license (if he's been allowed to get one).  Before leaving he needs to get ahold of those by one means or another. 

 

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

This.   Pack a bag and leave.

 

1 minute ago, Spryte said:

This.  

 

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

This needs to be thought through much more than just a simple "pack a bag and move out".  Adult life is difficult and needs documentation of many things (financial, health, etc. ) in order for someone to live independently successfully. 

 

 

Ok y'all I get it. I agree to an extent but he wants to try to navigate in a way that keeps a relationship with his family, mostly because he is close to his siblings. 

[Carol in Cal.]

He’s in a mess, and he is not ready for marriage.  I’m not sure dating him until he gets his head straight is actually in your daughter’s best interest.  He is not in any way ready to leave and cleave.

[prairiewindmomma]

Help him to get access to his finances without parental access and get his own identity documents. Essentially he needs to be prepared to break ties and stand on his own two feet.

 

[Bootsie]

If he is 21 years old and has a job with his own resources he can move out.  There are some things, like having a copy of his birth certificate and social security card that can make it easier, but it is his choice.  If he is out past his 9:00pm curfew the parents can lock the doors and not let him in the house.  They can't go round him up and make him come home.  He has some choices that he has to make.  It is a sad situation, but he isn't going to change his parents.

Depending upon your location it may be easy for him to find a place to rent or friends to stay with for a while.  You can choose how much you want to help hi with any of that, but he has to want to move out.  

 

[prairiewindmomma]

AFA maintaining access to siblings goes, he will need to one on one with them privately before he goes and give them his telephone number or designate a safe outside contact person.

The parents are abusive and he may need to be a safe haven in the future for them. He can be an example of leaving and making it in the world just fine without his parents.

[Spryte]

1 minute ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok y'all I get it. I agree to an extent but he wants to try to navigate in a way that keeps a relationship with his family, mostly because he is close to his siblings. 

I have no idea how to extricate oneself from that type of scenario gracefully, but one thought might be to apply for some excellent jobs that would require moving?  That’s the only way I can think of to get buy-in from his parents, but even that might not work.

Does he have access to his personal documents and banking?  That has to happen.  I’d start there, even knowing that he wants to maintain ties.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would suggest that he prioritize getting his ducks in a row (much like we suggest to a wife wanting to leave an abusive situation).  Get copies of important documents.  Keep them somewhere that is not in his family home.  Get a driver's license if he hasn't gotten one yet.  Get a bank account that isn't linked to his parent's accounts in any way.  It sounds like he has a job.  Great!  Set up a savings account and save, save, save.  If there are ways that he can establish some credit history (a credit card that he pays off every month etc.) then do that. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Help him to get access to his finances without parental access and get his own identity documents. Essentially he needs to be prepared to break ties and stand on his own two feet.

 

I encouraged him to open his own savings account since his mom has access to his checking. 

That way he can transfer most of his money to an account she doesn't have access to. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would suggest that he prioritize getting his ducks in a row (much like we suggest to a wife wanting to leave an abusive situation).  Get copies of important documents.  Keep them somewhere that is not in his family home.  Get a driver's license if he hasn't gotten one yet.  Get a bank account that isn't linked to his parent's accounts in any way.  It sounds like he has a job.  Great!  Set up a savings account and save, save, save.  If there are ways that he can establish some credit history (a credit card that he pays off every month etc.) then do that. 

 

He opened a LOC a few months ago to start to establish credit. I think I've talked him into getting a mobile savings account like ally that he can transfer most of his money into so his mom doesn't have access. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ann.without.an.e

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

He opened a LOC a few months ago to start to establish credit. I think I've talked him into getting a mobile savings account like ally that he can transfer most of his money into so his mom doesn't have access. 

I would make sure that he has his identity documents (birth certificate and social security) first because controlling parents can react to losing some control by clamping down even further and if he doesn't have them already, he's lost his chance. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would make sure that he has his identity documents (birth certificate and social security) first because controlling parents can react to losing some control by clamping down even further and if he doesn't have them already, he's lost his chance. 

I will ask him if he has these. He can always order his own if he doesn't and she won't give them?

[catz]

I'd encourage to at a minimum start laying out a boundary on when he will be moving out and maybe role play how to tell them.  If he is working a full time job maybe he could find a roommate situation.  Set up bank account, apply for a credit card, etc.  

But that said, I think I would be talking to my daughter about how he really is not ready for a relationship let alone marriage.  I'd encourage her to be a good friend.  But to live her life and enjoy all her friends right now.  Honestly, I would not be encouraging her to have a committed relationship with someone like this.  You say he is mature.  But he also isn't mature enough to lay out a boundary or he is brain washed to think his family is doing right by him.  Sounds like a long road of heart ache to me.  How old is your DD?  Is this your 18 year old?  

Edited May 17, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Bootsie]

If his parents have access to his checking account, I would suggest that he open a new account immediately.  If his paycheck is direct deposited, he should be able to get the paycheck deposited to the new account.  He can also transfer all of his existing money to the new account.

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 minute ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I'd encourage to at a minimum start laying out a boundary on when he will be moving out and maybe role play how to tell them.  If he is working a full time job maybe he could find a roommate situation.  Set up bank account, apply for a credit card, etc.  

But that said, I think I would be talking to my daughter about how he really is not ready for a relationship let alone marriage.  I'd encourage her to be a good friend.  But to live her life and enjoy all her friends right now.  Honestly, I would not be encouraging her to have a committed relationship with someone like this.  You say he is mature.  But he also isn't mature enough to lay out a boundary or he is brain washed to think his family is doing right by him.  Sounds like a long road of heart ache to me.  How old is your DD?  Is this your 18 year old?  

 

It isn't that he is brain washed or can't create a boundary. He knows it may come to that and is willing to if he necessary. He sees the situation very clearly. He knows they are controlling, has no intentions of allowing them say or control after he moves out, but is hopeful to navigate this in a way where he can maintain some sort of relationship. He is trying to make wise decisions. He knows it may come to packing up and moving but he really wants to do it in a way that doesn't destroy it. 

[Corbster98]

2 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I would make sure that he has his identity documents (birth certificate and social security) first because controlling parents can react to losing some control by clamping down even further and if he doesn't have them already, he's lost his chance. 

Even if his parents are controlling and won't give him his birth certificate, with a qualifying id card, he can obtain a certified copy on his own. 

And with a social security card, he can also obtain a replacement of that with his birth certificate and identification. It is not like he is out of luck if his parents were to try and choose to make things difficult for him. 

[prairiewindmomma]

edited suggestion for therapy

Edited May 17, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[HeartString]

9 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

It isn't that he is brain washed or can't create a boundary. He knows it may come to that and is willing to if he necessary. He sees the situation very clearly. He knows they are controlling, has no intentions of allowing them say or control after he moves out, but is hopeful to navigate this in a way where he can maintain some sort of relationship. He is trying to make wise decisions. He knows it may come to packing up and moving but he really wants to do it in a way that doesn't destroy it. 

Does their church agree with his parents?  Can he go to the church leaders and get some help? 
 

I’m afraid the real answer is that he can’t both leave the situation and keep the relationship.  His best move might be to get out as gracefully as he possibly can, deal with the fall out and then try to mend things later. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Please don’t quote:

 

 

Good idea. I feel like this kid is facing a crazy amount of guilt. IT makes me so sad. He's a great guy. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Just now, HeartString said:

Does their church agree with his parents?  Can he go to the church leaders and get some help? 
 

I’m afraid the real answer is that he can’t both leave the situation and keep the relationship.  His best move might be to get out as gracefully as he possibly can, deal with the fall out and then try to mend things later. 

 

Most likely they do. He wants out of that church so bad too. 

[Bootsie]

He does not have a healthy, mature relationship with his parents.  It sounds as if they have not interest in having an adult-to-adult relationship with their adult child.  What he has is contact with his parents at this point, not a relationship (in any healthy sense of the word.)   His best chance of ever having a healthy relationship with them is getting out of this situation as soon as possible and building a strong, healthy life for himself so that he can enter a relationship as a healthy adult if his parents are ever ready for that.  Given the extreme nature of the situation, unfortunately, that may never happen.  

[pinball]

Is this the same DD with the dirt track racer?

[catz]

3 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

 

I realize you said no quotes, so I clipped it out.

Emotional maturity is knowing that the boundary has to happen and how they choose to react is not on him.  It's on them.  He can only do his part.  It shouldn't be controversial for a young man in this age range to want to have some autonomy.  It does sound like he can use a therapist if  he is feeling guilt over just wanting to lay claim to his own adult life at age 21 when he is working full time.  

This isn't surprising.  Lots of young people and plenty of much older people have to learn to pull away from toxic family and how to lay out boundaries.  I just personally wouldn't be super encouraging of my own kid investing tons of emotional energy in a relationship that is going to come with tons of baggage.  People who are raised in homes with emotionally present and healthy families naturally learn to lay these boundaries out.  Not that we all don't have growing pains along the way but this sounds like more than that.  

[HeartString]

Does he have a friend besides your daughter?   Preferably a male friend he can crash with for a bit til he gets an apartment?  I’d be a job history he should be fine with no credit, they might want a bigger deposit.

 

Honestly, him packing a bag with his documents, going to your house, transferring his money to his own account and then calling home to say he’s not coming back might be the best way.  Blind siding them had the benefit of no drama.  
“No mom, I’m not coming home.  I am moved out, as of right now.  I’m staying with Josh until I find an apartment.  I love you and I hope you’ll understand some day.  I’ll call you Sunday afternoon.”   Then do it.  No drama, no fighting and screaming. Just done.  They can’t do anything but be mad. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by HeartString

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Does he have a friend besides your daughter?   Preferably a male friend??Hobestly him packing a bag with his documents, going to your house, transferring his money to his own account and then calling home to say he’s not coming back might be the best way.  Blind siding them had the benefit of no drama.  
“No mom, I’m not coming home.  I am moved out, as of right now.  I’m staying with Josh until I find an apartment.  I love you and I hope you’ll understand some day.  I’ll call you Sunday afternoon.”   Then do it.  No drama, no fighting and screaming. Just done.  They can’t do anything but be mad. 

 

He has lots of male friends. Many of them are on college campuses though. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

8 minutes ago, corbster98 said:

Even if his parents are controlling and won't give him his birth certificate, with a qualifying id card, he can obtain a certified copy on his own. 

And with a social security card, he can also obtain a replacement of that with his birth certificate and identification. It is not like he is out of luck if his parents were to try and choose to make things difficult for him. 

Unfortunately this is not always true. Some extremely conservative families have home births with no birth certificates. Not saying that you can’t have a birth certificate with a home birth but some don’t request them and it’s then hard to obtain one without parental help. 
 

And my understanding is that social security requires a birth certificate. 
 

But he has a job. And if the job is outside of the family then he probably has a social security card because that’s required for tax purposes. So this might be a moot point. 
 

I am just pointing this out because there was a fairly famous case of a young woman who wanted to leave a few years ago who had no birth certificate. We discussed it extensively on this board!  

[Ann.without.an.e]

y'all are still welcome to reply, I just feel like I have the confirmation I need 😉 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Ann.without.an.e

[KungFuPanda]

Documents are easier than ever to get online. He seems like he’s in a good financial position to just move out. My DD had no trouble finding an apartment in DC as a newly minted adult with no credit. The job stability really helps with that. 
 

His biggest obstacle seems to be knowing his rights and how to set boundaries. He is kept down by people who are motivated to control him and they’re going to do so as long as he allows it. He needs to get out and figure out who he is before he goes all in with another significant relationship. 
 

ETA: It’s not going to be pleasant. He needs to get his ducks in a row, be ready to move, speak with his siblings, and THEN inform his parents. He can’t wait for their blessing. It’s not coming. It sounds like they don’t know what their life IS without children to manage and they can’t let go. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by KungFuPanda

[Corbster98]

10 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Unfortunately this is not always true. Some extremely conservative families have home births with no birth certificates. Not saying that you can’t have a birth certificate with a home birth but some don’t request them and it’s then hard to obtain one without parental help. 
 

And my understanding is that social security requires a birth certificate. 
 

But he has a job. And if the job is outside of the family then he probably has a social security card because that’s required for tax purposes. So this might be a moot point. 
 

I am just pointing this out because there was a fairly famous case of a young woman who wanted to leave a few years ago who had no birth certificate. We discussed it extensively on this board!  

I see. I was assuming that the birth would have been recorded and he had a ss card given he was working. I understand where you are coming from though. 

[Catwoman]

28 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Does he have a friend besides your daughter?   Preferably a male friend he can crash with for a bit til he gets an apartment?  I’d be a job history he should be fine with no credit, they might want a bigger deposit.

 

Honestly, him packing a bag with his documents, going to your house, transferring his money to his own account and then calling home to say he’s not coming back might be the best way.  Blind siding them had the benefit of no drama.  
“No mom, I’m not coming home.  I am moved out, as of right now.  I’m staying with Josh until I find an apartment.  I love you and I hope you’ll understand some day.  I’ll call you Sunday afternoon.”   Then do it.  No drama, no fighting and screaming. Just done.  They can’t do anything but be mad. 

I would not recommend having him move into Ann’s house, even for a short time. I would be supportive of the young man’s efforts, but I don’t think having him living under the same roof as her dd is a good idea, as Ann’s primary responsibility is to her own kid’s well-being, and her dd needs the freedom to explore other friendships and relationships, which might not happen if this guy is living with the family. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Catwoman
I can’t type.

[fraidycat]

That's such a tricky situation, trying to navigate the fine line between relationship and none in an abusive controlling situation. 
 

He only had control over his side of the relationship and if his parents choose the all or nothing option, then the choice has been made for him and there's not much he can do about it. There could also be an adjustment period where everything blows up, but they eventually decide that they do want a relationship and come around.

I just happened across a quote by Brené Brown yesterday when I was going through some old notes that I shared with a client that seems fitting in this situation as well:

"Daring to set boundaries is about having the courage to love ourselves, even when we risk disappointing others."
 

MOST people react badly to new boundaries. There is no getting around that part. But, boundaries still need to be set.

 

[Happy2BaMom]

It's no different than if a woman were in an abusive, controlling relationship. And it's just as serious.

If he is unable to go to therapy (or won't - ut it would be really good for him for support), I would encourage him to start self-educating with a few good books and some YT videos. No, not perfect, but he needs to start to understand that his parents are acting out a well-established PATTERN and that he has been trained to respond in a well-established PATTERN. When he finally does leave, THINGS WILL BE WORSE WITH HIS PARENTS, not better. They will up the game to try and guilt and control him back to where he was (there is a slight chance they may also suddenly change their tune & try to sweet-talk him back....either way, it's all part of the pattern). If he is not prepared for that, he will likely cave.

He might try searching for some YT videos on "narcissistic parents" (I'm pretty sure, with this level of control, they fall into that category, but if anyone else here has better ideas / more insight, please pipe up) or "escaping a controlling relationship" or "controlling relationship patterns". As with all things YT, you gotta filter, but I've found some pretty good / helpful talks on YT on these types of topics.

A gazillion years ago, I *loved* Harriet Lerner's books (The Dance of Anger, The Dance of Intimacy, in particular). She was the first one (for me) who really brought to light the patterns that underlie so many family interactions, and how, when one party wants to change, the other parties react in such a way as to get them to change back (it's part of the process). The books were written for women, but were very insightful. I'm sure there are other books out there that might be more...attractive to him, but again, the point is for him to start educating himself.  He's in quite the battle and he doesn't recognize it and the other side has all the weapons.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Happy2BaMom

[Soror]

Poor, poor kid. I don't see him coming out of this with his freedom and a relationship with his parents. Maybe some day they will come around but I would go into this expecting to lose them and his siblings. 

If I was him I'd be making up some excuse as to why he needs his SS card and birth certificate, or at least 1 of those to make sure he has the copy. I'd not trust them to hand them over and it would be much easier if he has them. Considering how they are treating him I'd encourage him to just take them without their knowledge, he is of legal age, they are his now.

Considering the level of control they are exerting I don't think there is any way for him to peaceably work it out with them.

[Ann.without.an.e]

33 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I would not recommend having him move into Ann’s house, even for a short time. I would be supportive of the young man’s efforts, but I don’t think having him living under the same roof as her dd is a good idea, as Ann’s primary responsibility is to her own kid’s well-being, and her dd needs the freedom to explore other friendships and relationships, which might not happen if this guy is living with the family. 

We haven’t and won’t extend the offer for him to stay with us for the reasons you’ve stated.