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CDC mask announcement (a new thread)


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[this thread is moving too fast for long replies, lol, but I simply can't do these pithy things y'all are!]

26 minutes ago, Plum said:

Not wise, but not intentionally malicious either. 

23 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's also the non-scientific media attempting to relay scientific information to a mostly scientifically illiterate audience. It's a really bad version of telephone. 

I'm sorry, but I do think my parents are a good representation of a substantial part of the society who simply were not and are not concerned about precautions. They are more informed than I am, or you are, because they know it is a hoax and blown out of proportion (ah, the sweet smell of "did their own research"). You're right that they aren't being intentionally malicious but they are being obstinately obtuse and when it comes to others' lives I don't feel like there is a fig leaf to hide behind anymore on this subject.

You don't need to read 40 research abstracts and follow daily news to know that masks help, social distancing helps, and we were asked to stop large gatherings because it helps. The messaging may not be clear on some details (new CDC recs a good example), but these broad strokes were definitely clear well before fall and holidays and are still clear today, so yeah, the fig leaf is too small.

18 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's not bad decisions from someone who just wants to get together with family and tries to do all of the right things. People are people and they aren't perfect especially when given half-accurate  messaging. 

"I just want to see my family" is an understandable emotion. It is not a reasonable excuse to ignore reasonable precautions and prolong a worldwide pandemic that led (and continues to lead) to the death of millions of people. A lot of people did NOT "just see their family and do all the right things", so many people did NONE of the right things and not because they didn't KNOW about them, but because they didn't WANT to.

I think a lot of people on the board think there aren't really people like this, or they are a vanishingly small amount, and so are feeling the need to defend vilified-others with the cry of #notallpeople (or #notallpeoplewhoarenthermits). And I do agree with you, it's really not everyone;  I know a lot of people just want to live their lives and take reasonable precautions to not pass along Covid to others. Wanting to live and see loved ones is not a crime.

But the point is #toomanypeople. This is a large number of people, no, they are not trying to do anything and sometimes actively try to sabotage measures, and no, they are not just ignorant or too tired at the end of the day to keep up with the news, they have actively decided to be this way even knowing that information.

These are the people being called out, and rightfully so. By continuously giving this section of the population excuses and leniency, we aren't helping anyone and are making the situation worse for the actual people that are "trying to do all the right things" even if imperfectly.

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2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Thought the construction clusters last year were dorm related.

April 22, 2021 https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-probing-covid-19-re-infections-after-cases-workers-dormitory-2021-04-22/

”Singapore said on Thursday it is quarantining about 1,200 migrant workers after finding COVID-19 cases in their dormitory including among men who had recovered from the virus, raising concerns about re-infections.

Authorities are conducting COVID-19 tests for all residents of Westlite Woodlands dormitory after one worker was found positive on Tuesday during routine testing. The worker had received a second vaccination dose a week earlier and his roommate also tested positive.

So far, ongoing testing in the dormitory shows 17 recovered workers are positive for COVID-19”

@Not_a_Number

May 16th, 2021 https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-warns-children-susceptible-virus-variants-shuts-schools-2021-05-17/

“Singapore warned on Sunday that the new coronavirus variants, such as the one first detected in India, were affecting more children, as the city-state prepares to shut most schools from this week and draws up plans to vaccinate youngsters.

All primary, secondary and junior colleges will shift to full home-based learning from Wednesday until the end of the school term on May 28.

"Some of these (virus) mutations are much more virulent, and they seem to attack the younger children," said Education Minister Chan Chun Sing.

None of the children who have contracted the virus are seriously ill and a few have mild symptoms, he added.

The B1617 strain appeared to affect children more, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung, citing the ministry's director of medical services Kenneth Mak. It was not clear how many children had contracted the strain.“

I don't think they were counting dorm related cases in the study as outside transmission. But I'm not sure. But the article said nothing about that, just that it could also include people working inside on unfinished buildings or people eating together inside on breaks.

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4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Maybe I'd worry more if my kid weren't such a little misanthrope 😉 Sort of kidding. Anecdotal of course, but I've heard of no outbreaks whatsoever associated with outdoor kid sports (and I looked pretty hard and asked a lot of people), and that informed our spring baseball decision. I think the coach getting covid early on was probably good for my anxiety in the long term (and he's okay!)...I had to remind myself that we didn't let him play because we didn't think there was any chance he'd be exposed to covid, but because we figured the risk of him getting it playing baseball was very low even he was.

I mean, I've watched sports and I've watched playgrounds, and unless your sport is ping-pong, you have natural social distancing for much of your time playing the sport 😛 . And that is not true for kids playing in a sandbox. 

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11 hours ago, SKL said:

AFAIK they don't have the Pfizer vax in India.  

This is incorrect. 

They have Sputnik V, which has a 92% efficacy according to a study published in Lancet.

They have Covishield, which is manufactured by Pfizer, under the name Covishield.

They have Covaxin, which had a 81% efficacy rate in a phase 3 trial. 

SOURCE: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55748124

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We are also hearing of coworkers from India having fully vaxxed family contract symptomatic covid.  It's concerning as heck.

I'm super disappointed in Target's announcement.  I think we will take dd once this summer to Target, double masked, so she can pick out back to school clothes, but it's not going to be a resumption of normal trips to Target like she had hoped. 

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I’m honestly shocked that New York is removing the mask mandate tomorrow for vaccinated people.

I personally know unvaccinated people who will no longer wear a mask.  There’s no reasonable way to check who is vaccinated and who isn’t.  I think most people in my area will just not wear a mask.

On the other hand, it has encouraged people to sign up for vaccines.  I got called tonight to do a county vaccine clinic this week  that had 200 people signed up for it yesterday. Today after the announcement was made, another 700-some people signed up so they’ve had to call in additional vaccinators. My own FIL was on the fence, and this pushed him over to get the vaccine. There is a large amount of vaccine hesitancy here, and if this helps get people vaxxed, I’m all for it.

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8 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’m honestly shocked that New York is removing the mask mandate tomorrow for vaccinated people.

Oh, crud. Well, now I know what's happening in NY. I'm coming back to primal scream mode here... 

 

9 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

On the other hand, it has encouraged people to sign up for vaccines.  I got called tonight to do a county vaccine clinic this week  that had 200 people signed up for it yesterday. Today after the announcement was made, another 700-some people signed up so they’ve had to call in additional vaccinators. My own FIL was on the fence, and this pushed him over to get the vaccine. There is a large amount of vaccine hesitancy here, and if this helps get people vaxxed, I’m all for it.

Huh. Well, that's at least encouraging!! I'm glad it's partially working as intended. 

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35 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I've watched sports and I've watched playgrounds, and unless your sport is ping-pong, you have natural social distancing for much of your time playing the sport 😛 . And that is not true for kids playing in a sandbox. 

Yes, but don’t you think we’d have heard anything about it?  In the less restrictive parts of the country, I’m sure kids have been playing unmasked on playgrounds for the duration. I haven’t heard or seen of cases from playgrounds anywhere.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, freesia said:

Yes, but don’t you think we’d have heard anything about it?  In the less restrictive parts of the country, I’m sure kids have been playing unmasked on playgrounds for the duration. I haven’t heard or seen of cases from playgrounds anywhere.

No, I don't. Most kids who go to playgrounds also go to school, and kids get tested rarely, and I would guess practically all of those cases would get filed under "I dunno where I got it." I simply don't think our contact tracing is good enough for this. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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One of the things Amber Schmidtke pointed out in the thing I linked to like a million pages ago is that the new guidelines could cause more people to get vaccinated because they'll feel less safe now with so many people dropping masks instead of because they want the "reward" of being able to stop wearing a mask after they're vaccinated. I think I've seen at least one person on here say that, too, yes? That they'd prefer to hold off on vaccinating kids but will likely do it earlier because of this. I suppose it's possible the CDC is outthinking all of us and playing an incredible game of 4D chess with all of this. But somehow I doubt it. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Here's the question: how would we actually trace outdoor transmissions at playgrounds and schools? It's quite easy to trace indoor transmissions, because they are mostly between people who are choosing to spend time together in the same space for a prolonged time. Grocery stores are generally VERY short interactions and don't really count. 

But would we even be able to trace outdoor transmissions well most of the time? How often are people spending time together outdoors but not indoors?

You can be fairly sure if your kid caught a bug from Kid X on the playground or Kid Y at school because either Kid X or Kid Y didn't have the bug.

While kids do both indoor and outdoor play at daycare and school, there's been a lot of time over the past year when kids were not in group indoor activities at all.  The kids playing together at the playground are very often not the same as the kids encountered within breathing distance at school.

From what I've read, most individuals of all ages catch Covid at home from family members.  While family members may hang together both indoors and outdoors, scientifically the virus has a much better chance of spreading in the house than in the backyard.

When you couple this information with the stats that little kids have lower rates of infection and transmission than adults, it adds up to pretty low risk, especially with the overall case numbers as low as they are.

I've also read that vigorous exercise that exercises the lungs is protective against Covid.  This needs to be done without a mask on for safety reasons.  Kids running around playing at a playground, maskless, would have many protective factors in their favor.

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42 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’m honestly shocked that New York is removing the mask mandate tomorrow for vaccinated people.

I personally know unvaccinated people who will no longer wear a mask.  There’s no reasonable way to check who is vaccinated and who isn’t.  I think most people in my area will just not wear a mask.

On the other hand, it has encouraged people to sign up for vaccines.  I got called tonight to do a county vaccine clinic this week  that had 200 people signed up for it yesterday. Today after the announcement was made, another 700-some people signed up so they’ve had to call in additional vaccinators. My own FIL was on the fence, and this pushed him over to get the vaccine. There is a large amount of vaccine hesitancy here, and if this helps get people vaxxed, I’m all for it.

I do think there are a lot of people who just haven’t done it yet for whatever reason but planned to eventually and this nudged them.   

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12 minutes ago, SKL said:

You can be fairly sure if your kid caught a bug from Kid X on the playground or Kid Y at school because either Kid X or Kid Y didn't have the bug.

Except that people are barely testing kids at all. So realistically, lots of people simply don't know. 

 

13 minutes ago, SKL said:

When you couple this information with the stats that little kids have lower rates of infection and transmission than adults, it adds up to pretty low risk, especially with the overall case numbers as low as they are.

I do find the low case numbers convincing. It's all food for thought. 

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3 hours ago, Plum said:

But it’s not forever. There is a light somewhere around September.

What's the light that's coming in September?

 

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

They have Covishield, which is manufactured by Pfizer, under the name Covishield.

 

Covishield is AZ

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Except that people are barely testing kids at all. So realistically, lots of people simply don't know.

Maybe.  My IRL Covid-kid acquaintances learned which of their contacts had Covid (after the fact of course), so they know whether they were with them indoors or outdoors.

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13 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe.  My IRL Covid-kid acquaintances learned which of their contacts had Covid (after the fact of course), so they know whether they were with them indoors or outdoors.

How many kids do you know who got COVID, if you don't mind me asking? 

For the record, I totally buy the 10% number. I would guess that outdoor transmission is 10-20 times less risky than indoor transmission. It's the 1% or 0.1% number I'm very skeptical of, when it comes to kids. 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

How many kids do you know who got COVID, if you don't mind me asking? 

For the record, I totally buy the 10% number. I would guess that outdoor transmission is 10-20 times less risky than indoor transmission. It's the 1% or 0.1% number I'm very skeptical of, when it comes to kids. 

I could see the rates being different for adults and kids.  Kids and adults have different behaviors at a playground do different transmission rates at a park seem reasonable to me.  

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Just now, HeartString said:

I could see the rates being different for adults and kids.  Kids and adults have different behaviors at a playground do different transmission rates at a park seem reasonable to me.  

I don't suck my thumb or get in my friends' faces, yes 😉 . I don't run around after my friends hollering loudly. I don't sneeze in people's faces. 

Kids are GROSS 😛 . That's what makes me worry. 

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21 minutes ago, KSera said:

What's the light that's coming in September?

 

Covishield is AZ

 

 

My apologies, Plum and SKL. You are right, covishield is Oxford-AZ. I misread the last paragraph before “How effective is covishield” in the link I posted.

 

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19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't suck my thumb or get in my friends' faces, yes 😉 . I don't run around after my friends hollering loudly.

So you say.... but we only have your word for it...    😉 

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4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

How many kids do you know who got COVID, if you don't mind me asking? 

approximatey 3.85 million in the US at the beginning on May.
 

 

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The argument that "The kids are FINE" makes me crazy.  We don't know how many of our little darlings are asymptomatic Typhoid Marys.  I know that I never took kids with minor symptoms to the hospital to be tested for anything, so I suspect most people don't bother with Covid testing. If little Susie has the sniffles for a few days, A LOT of people will not bother hauling a cranky kid to a testing station. Saying that we don't have the numbers to be concerned about kids is disingenuous because those numbers don't really exist due to how relatively kind this virus is to kids.   

As stated above, kids are nasty.  Little Janey will pick her nose then use the monkey bars.  Little Johnny will lick his finger, wrestle his friend to the ground, and stick said finger in friend's ear.  Kids who are playing full-out don't concern themselves with personal space.  So maybe I'm young, my kids are young, I like my odds, so I just do not care about people beyond my own four walls enough to change my behavior because FrEedOm.  

Where does that leave us?  We've continued to circulate this virus around in society because "98% percent of people survive." Only now the virus mutates and the new strains are harder on children.  What if the strains after that are even harder?  There is a whole segment of the population that will suddenly care when their own kids are at risk who didn't care when grandma was at risk and that SUCKS.  What is wrong with people?

In my area, which is pretty serious about masking, they moved high school football to spring.  Nobody is on the football field wearing masks. All of the practices were outside. SIX teams got shut down due to covid outbreaks.  There were no formal announcements from the schools. The community found out through word-of-mouth. The people participating didn't want things shut down so they kept a lid on it as best they could.  

Under reporting due to mild illness in kids and because a community wants to avoid being shut down are very real.  If this is happening in my liberal neck of the woods, I feel confident it's a widespread problem. In a society without the public will to control its behavior, vaccines are our best hope at controlling this thing.

Don't even get me started about how people who are wealthy enough to jet around the world have spread this to poor people who never traveled anywhere and who don't have the privilege of high quality health care. Getting the vaccine was a HUGE weight off my shoulders because I have a son with muscular dystrophy and anything respiratory can be catastrophic.  However, until we can pump out enough vaccines to get the rest of the world inoculated and get more of the people who only care about their own odds on board with vaccines, we're giving the virus more of a chance to spread and mutate.  Covid WANTS to live and it will do what it has to to survive.

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4 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

In my area, which is pretty serious about masking, they moved high school football to spring.  Nobody is on the football field wearing masks. All of the practices were outside. SIX teams got shut down due to covid outbreaks.  There were no formal announcements from the schools. The community found out through word-of-mouth. The people participating didn't want things shut down so they kept a lid on it as best they could.  

 

I’m not disputing that people could avoid testing, lie, or cover things up. Also agree with your points about underprivileged taking the highest hit during the pandemic. In our own country, while those of us who stay home and wring our hands over our under 12’s who are very low risk — understandably, because our kids are precious—- the people who make it possible for the wealthier to have the luxury to worry about those things, have been going to work every day to support the isolated Covid avoidance of the more-fortunate. 
Many of them have also had their children denied an adequate education during this time. 
And when they have symptoms or exposure, they are not supported to stay home. 

As I think someone else said upthread, lack of support for quarantine and isolation is the much bigger problem than someone who runs into Home Depot without having their kids masked. 
 

Oh, the quote. I thought there were contact tracing studies that showed kids were not having problems catching the virus outside at practices. The problem is that they gather together outside of practice. With teens, I would suspect this is the case unless I could be sure. Also, a high school football team has no one work in the weight room, indoors? That would be unusual. Football is high contact so it certainly could be outside, but I guess without personal knowledge I’d look at other possibilities.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Penelope said:

 In our own country, while those of us who stay home and wring our hands over our under 12’s who are very low risk — understandably, because our kids are precious—- the people who make it possible for the wealthier to have the luxury to worry about those things, have been going to work every day to support the isolated Covid avoidance of the more-fortunate. 

Not everyone who is worried about their under 12s has been able to stay home. And it's not the wealthy and privileged who have opted to keep their kids home from school in the greatest numbers; quite the opposite.

ETA: my own point of view is probably influenced by the fact that my husband (and all of his students and co-workers. And lots and lots of other people) have been wearing masks 8+ hours a day every day for months, so I have very little tolerance for people whining about wearing one for a few minutes at Target. And a very difficult time seeing that as more onerous than the extra risk my kid is now going to be taking on, along with all the other kids who've already made an awful lot of sacrifices this year mostly to keep other people safe.

Edited by kokotg
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Thank you Panda!!! This is what people do not seem to get. The virus is a living thing, maybe not like people think of living, but it is alive and hardwired for survival, so it will keep doing as you say, mutating and looking for hosts. The more hosts it finds, the more trouble we are in, and right now kids have to be pretty darn good looking "fresh meat" to this virus. Mutating in order to infect hosts it has had limited exposure to due to protocols, masks, schools being shut down, kids being isolated from extracurricular activities and staying home a lot is exactly what I would expect it to do.

And yes, first it was college sports in Michigan - waving my middle finger to the University of Michigan in particular - fell to major outbreaks with many of their mild cases of sniffles resulting in athletes with swollen hearts and other side effects that benched them so the untold story is that since they can't play now, they lose their scholarships (double middle finger to college athletic programs) - then it is was high school sports. Now we have had an outbreak in an AYSO soccer program in our rural area, and everyone is tripping out because "we never saw this coming". Really????? Study biology again or for crying out loud listen to epidemiologists and microbiologists. it should be no shocker if this thing mutates to a transmitting effectively outdoors virus. Cut off from its usual adult hosts in indoor gatherings, social distancing, limiting group numbers, etc. combined with vaccinations, it is going to be forced to find new hosts and mutate to infect those new hosts at high rates in order to survive. We should have had an epic three month shut down right at the beginning to stop it in its tracks, and allow the medical community to figure out treatment plans, and for epidemiologists to get a handle on the bugger. I mean, even Star Trek, and a few really poorly done Sci Fi movies have demonstrated this basic principle. So since we can't just isolate it and have Scotty beam it out into the vacuum of space, we have to create that vacuum here. But we let the genie out of the bottle, and just when maybe, just maybe we might have a had a chance to control the genie, we thought " Hell yes, let's let the genie run free and hope nothing bad comes of it". Un.be.freaking.believable.

Never underestimate human kind's penchant for trying to make itself extinct! 

So here is the micro biology fact of the matter. Not giving a rat's rear about grandma dying or "the pre-existing condition people" or "fat people" or whatever is ultimately not giving a sh$t about kids because not only do kids not live in a vacuum, neither does this damn virus. 

The staggering ignorance and narcissism in this country is beyond the pale!

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13 minutes ago, kokotg said:

lots and lots of other people) have been wearing masks 8+ hours a day every day for months, so I have very little tolerance for people whining about wearing one for a few minutes at Target. And a very difficult time seeing that as more onerous than the extra risk my kid is now going to be taking on, along with all the other kids who've already made an awful lot of sacrifices this year mostly to keep other people safe.

I agree with you here. Kids have borne a great burden, and we are going to see the effects for a long time.

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I drove to Costco today to get gas. I watched people exit the warehouse today to get a gauge of what things looked like on the ground. No one was masked. Ok, then.  I know statistically, based on our county vaccination rates, that likely at least one of the 100ish people I saw come out was unvaccinated. (Statistically, if Costco shops are proportional to our population, 1/3 of the over 18s were, and given when vaccines were released here, all of the under 18s were not fully vaccinated.) I'm angry.

(To be fair, I was angry when the measles outbreak happened in my state and neighboring state in 2019.  A county wiped out a few million dollars contact tracing measles counts and doing community outreach....all because people were relying on herd immunity rather than vaccinating their own kids.)

We *should* be able to move on.  If people were vaccinated fully, we *could* move on and feel good about it.  I don't think we're there yet.

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2 hours ago, kokotg said:

Not everyone who is worried about their under 12s has been able to stay home. And it's not the wealthy and privileged who have opted to keep their kids home from school in the greatest numbers; quite the opposite.

ETA: my own point of view is probably influenced by the fact that my husband (and all of his students and co-workers. And lots and lots of other people) have been wearing masks 8+ hours a day every day for months, so I have very little tolerance for people whining about wearing one for a few minutes at Target. And a very difficult time seeing that as more onerous than the extra risk my kid is now going to be taking on, along with all the other kids who've already made an awful lot of sacrifices this year mostly to keep other people safe.

ITA My music students haven't been staying home. Most have been going to school with masks, piano with masks, and often scouts or playing a sport with masks. It hasn't been a problem for the last 10 months. So why is it suddenly untenable to wear masks a few more months in indoor/crowded outdoor settings until they can be protected, too? Why is it suddenly OK to throw out the masks because adults who want to be are now protected?

 

I plan to continue to have masks required in my studio through the summer but since my city has lifted the mandate for the community center, I'm not sure I have a leg to stand on if someone shows up without one. I just don't want the kids getting sick when half of them will be able to be fully vaccinated by the end of summer, and the other half hopefully by Halloween. 

 

 

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While our contact tracing locally hasn't been robust (many people proclaimed they weren't going to "turn in" their friends and family members, etc.), one local school district did their own and did a pretty decent job of it. They traced one significant spreader event to a bonfire near Halloween. I don't know if that bonfire included an indoor component or not because they didn't say AFAIK. 

There is a very good possibility that bonfire was a youth event from my former church, but I don't really know. Bonfires are super popular here. But someone from our youth group hosted one in the same school district at about the same time, and there were tons of pictures showing completely unmasked folks attending it. It is not a small youth group, and it seems like the bonfire was well attended.

I trust the idea of no outdoor transmission only so far with happenings like this.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I trust the idea of no outdoor transmission only so far with happenings like this.

I remember some Midwestern states tracing some stuff to packed outdoor events as well. 

The thing with outdoor transmissions is that I don't see how they'd be traced usually. The reason we have data from construction workers is that this is the rare JOB that involves being outside and actually next to other people. Our contract tracing from jobs is decent, because it's predictable. Our contact tracing from schools is decent, because it's predictable, but there's literally no way to tell when a transmission at school happened outside. 

Sports aren't likely to lead to transmission because people aren't NEAR each other. So that's another predictable thing, but it's a wash. 

So then where are we supposed to even get the tracing for things outside? It would have to be packed events with predictable attendance. I do remember news like that coming out, but again, it's just not a common occurrence for people outside to be clumped together for a long time. If someone did pick it up at a playground, it'd likely be from a kid they didn't even know well that they were playing with -- it wouldn't be traced even if people DID get the kids tested. 

I do remember feeling reassured that the protests didn't cause spikes. On the other hand, I don't know how much time people at protests were standing packed together with the same group of people, either. And they were masked and not sneezing in each other's faces, lol. 

Anyway, I agree with you -- I'm not going to buy the 1% figure unless we have actual robust data and not handwaving based on incomplete data. That being said, I do think outdoor transmission is much rarer.

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 hour ago, kbutton said:

While our contact tracing locally hasn't been robust (many people proclaimed they weren't going to "turn in" their friends and family members, etc.), one local school district did their own and did a pretty decent job of it. They traced one significant spreader event to a bonfire near Halloween. I don't know if that bonfire included an indoor component or not because they didn't say AFAIK. 

There is a very good possibility that bonfire was a youth event from my former church, but I don't really know. Bonfires are super popular here. But someone from our youth group hosted one in the same school district at about the same time, and there were tons of pictures showing completely unmasked folks attending it. It is not a small youth group, and it seems like the bonfire was well attended.

I trust the idea of no outdoor transmission only so far with happenings like this.

We had an event like this supposedly generate a lot of cases at our high school--but in talking to some involved, many/all of the kids who were cases also carpooled, went to someone's house afterwards to watch a movie, were on the same hockey team etc. 

I am NOT worried about outdoor transmission based on the data.

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5 hours ago, Penelope said:

I agree with you here. Kids have borne a great burden, and we are going to see the effects for a long time.

Yep, and the final burden will be making them all get a vaccination that hurts them more (physically, on average) than Covid would.

Vaccinating our kids will be 95% for the good of older people and 5% for their own good (if that).

I wonder why people aren't acknowledging this.

I'm not saying we shouldn't vaccinate them if the science says it's needed to protect at-risk people.  But it's not for the kids.  It's for us.  And making them mask is also for us, not them.

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

Yep, and the final burden will be making them all get a vaccination that hurts them more (physically, on average) than Covid would.

Vaccinating our kids will be 95% for the good of older people and 5% for their own good (if that).

I wonder why people aren't acknowledging this.

I'm not saying we shouldn't vaccinate them if the science says it's needed to protect at-risk people.  But it's not for the kids.  It's for us.  And making them mask is also for us, not them.

It's possible people aren't acknowledging it because they disagree with you. I vaccinate my kids for a lot of diseases with less risk of serious long term consequences than COVID. My kid will be vaccinated as soon as the trials are done and the vaccine is approved. He doesn't want to get covid. You think he's wrong and he should be fine getting it, but he (and I) disagree. You don't have any evidence whatsoever that the vaccine will hurt kids more on average than covid would. Unless you've got a source leaking you information from the vaccine trials. 

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26 minutes ago, Karen A said:

We had an event like this supposedly generate a lot of cases at our high school--but in talking to some involved, many/all of the kids who were cases also carpooled, went to someone's house afterwards to watch a movie, were on the same hockey team etc. 

It would not surprise me at all to find out that this is a lot of it. 

I would also not be surprised if it was considered an outdoor event, but people might be going in an out of a house to use a bathroom, get food, etc., which is why I made my disclaimer about not knowing if there was an indoor component. Around here, people are completely fine with "close enough" for everything--not just Covid, but food allergies, etc. It's not unusual for people here to completely undo any precautions they take with behavior they don't think through at all, and they think that being well-meaning is all that matters. People constantly fudge things. I am sure it happens elsewhere too, but it's like our entire local culture gravitates this way to prove a point or something.

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18 minutes ago, kokotg said:

It's possible people aren't acknowledging it because they disagree with you. I vaccinate my kids for a lot of diseases with less risk of serious long term consequences than COVID. My kid will be vaccinated as soon as the trials are done and the vaccine is approved. He doesn't want to get covid. You think he's wrong and he should be fine getting it, but he (and I) disagree. You don't have any evidence whatsoever that the vaccine will hurt kids more on average than covid would. Unless you've got a source leaking you information from the vaccine trials. 

Right. A lot of us disagree with this statement. We think that COVID is a greater danger for our kids than the vaccine. 

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32 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. A lot of us disagree with this statement. We think that COVID is a greater danger for our kids than the vaccine. 

This seems so self evident that I'm curious who is supposed to be "acknowledging" the opposite. Obviously I think the vaccine poses less of a risk to my child than COVID (pending trial results); otherwise I wouldn't choose to have him get it. There's already a vaccine to protect older people, and it seems to be doing an excellent job of it, so I wouldn't feel an obligation to consider having him get one for that reason.

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Just now, kokotg said:

This seems so self evident that I'm curious who is supposed to be "acknowledging" the opposite. Obviously I think the vaccine poses less of a risk to my child than COVID (pending trial results); otherwise I wouldn't choose to have him get it. There's already a vaccine to protect older people, and it seems to be doing an excellent job of it, so I wouldn't feel an obligation to consider having him get one for that reason.

I guess maybe the stance is just that we're all wrong and won't admit it? 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I guess maybe the stance is just that we're all wrong and won't admit it? 

even to ourselves?! Do we just WANT to harm our children? I lose patience quickly with arguments of the "if you had just thought about this as much as I have, you'd see that I'm right!" sort. Especially about parenting decisions. ETA: I have many flaws, but underthinking things is not among them.

Edited by kokotg
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1 minute ago, kokotg said:

even to ourselves?! Do we just WANT to harm our children? I lose patience quickly with arguments of the "if you had just thought about this as much as I have, you'd see that I'm right!" sort. Especially about parenting decisions. ETA: I have many flaws, but underthinking things is not among them.

Oh, I think it's sometimes useful to talk things out with other people 🙂 . We aren't closed systems. 

But I think in that case, one ought to listen to what the other person is thinking, or at least try to. For some bizarre (to some people) reason, we think the vaccine is safer than the virus. Why do we think that? Are we being rational? Are we making any bad assumptions? 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I think it's sometimes useful to talk things out with other people 🙂 . We aren't closed systems. 

But I think in that case, one ought to listen to what the other person is thinking, or at least try to. For some bizarre (to some people) reason, we think the vaccine is safer than the virus. Why do we think that? Are we being rational? Are we making any bad assumptions? 

Talking things out with other people is excellent. Doing it by telling people that you just don't get why they won't admit that they're wrong seems unlikely to be productive however. 

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4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Talking things out with other people is excellent. Doing it by telling people that you just don't get why they won't admit that they're wrong seems unlikely to be productive however. 

Can't say I disagree with you there. 

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

Yep, and the final burden will be making them all get a vaccination that hurts them more (physically, on average) than Covid would.

 

So you think that Covid for a kid would be what, exactly? Asymptomatic, or a mild fever, mild cold-type thing for a few days?

And the vaccine side effects are worse than that, or last longer than that?

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2 minutes ago, Kanin said:

So you think that Covid for a kid would be what, exactly? Asymptomatic, or a mild fever, mild cold-type thing for a few days?

It is for a lot of kids. And for some, it isn't. It's a confusing disease. 

 

2 minutes ago, Kanin said:

And the vaccine side effects are worse than that, or last longer than that?

Probably true half the time. Maybe more than half, I really don't know. 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

 

Probably true half the time. Maybe more than half, I really don't know. 

This table doesn't break things down by how many people report any side effects (that I could find), but all the most common ones (except pain at the injection site) happen in fewer than 50% of people (and most of those report mild reactions that don't "interfere with activity". I would expect it to be lower for kids just based on anecdotal evidence from teens and young adults I know who've gotten it, but that's just a guess. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/reactogenicity.html

 

Edited by kokotg
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