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CDC mask announcement (a new thread)


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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

But they are. It's called "school"

And child care, which a lot of families need to use over the summer. It's one reason why I am very concerned about the mask mandate being dropped in my county right as schools let out, because we'll then have a bunch of kids who had been in different schools grouped together as the school year applecart is upset in favor of the summer child care applecart. 

 

I'm working on my policies for summer, and I think I am going to require masks for everyone under 16, and request that parents continue to stay outside the room during lessons (they can hear either from outside or the indoor hallway, and we've been doing it that way all year) or wear masks in the studio. I only have one current student who is 17, and she's fully vaccinated (and was excited when she got her shot, because she's been doing grocery curbside delivery through the last year), and she's not in any of the group classes, so that would be keep masks required across the board, but hopefully send a message that my reason for requiring continued masking is that kids can't be vaccinated yet or are in the process of being so (my 12-15's would, at best, be fully vaccinated at about the end of June, which is halfway through the session. And that's if they got their first shot when eligibility opened). 

 

I am hoping that parents don't push back. I am allowed to set my own policies, but as long as masking was mandated indoors county-wide, I knew I'd get backing. Now, I'm not so sure, because I think we're going to be in a position of every instructor creating their own policies, so it is entirely likely that I will have some kids required to mask in piano lessons with me (1-1, with a fully vaccinated adult, so probably pretty low risk) and then going to dance class unmasked, with a much larger group of not able to be vaccinated yet kids. But in a building with shared HVAC, I just don't feel comfortable about kids not being masked yet. We've had a good year with excellent attendance, almost no one sick at all, and that was with masks and with most students attending in person school masked. I don't see a good reason to change that yet. 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

This may be a dumb question to ask this late in the game, but are the vaccination percentages the percentage of the entire population that is vaccinated or are they the percentage of the vaccine eligible population that is vaccinated? 

so I just checked the NYT covid page, which is where I check in the most often, and their numbers are based on all residents, including children not yet eligible to vaccinated (it's 37% fully vaccinated and 47% at least one dose, btw): https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

Edited by kokotg
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Here are the current stats from CDC, as both % of total population and % of eligible (12 & over):

Fully vaccinated: 37% of population, 44% of 12 & over

At least one dose: 47% of population, 56% of 12 & over

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2 hours ago, KeriJ said:

The CDC never said unvaccinated people should walk around maskless. We are projecting what we think will happen.  They are responsible for reporting science and science says vaccinated people won't spread the virus. 

From cdc.gov: 

  • COVID-19 vaccines reduce the risk of people spreading COVID-19.        
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3 hours ago, Spy Car said:

It sure is an ugly tale.

Unfortunately, it could not be more accurate.

Being "hateful" is willing and deliberately putting other people at risk

 

Sadly, I agree. I am so exhausted and disgusted from the selfish, willful ignorance of the human race. 

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Almost every single post of mine is edited. My typos are many. My eyesight is failing. 

No matter how many times I proofread a post before hitting submit, 9 times out of 10 I don't see my mistake until after the post is there for everyone to see. 

Edited by Lady Florida.
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17 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm wondering how many of those vaccinated are for sure getting their under 12 children vaccinated.  

Me!  I mean assuming the vaccine trials go well for under 12s.  They really want their shots.

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30 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm wondering how many of those vaccinated are for sure getting their under 12 children vaccinated.  

I know dss and ddil are planning on getting the grandkids vaccinated as soon as they're eligible. My niece's twins turned 13 and March and since the approval for 12-15 they've been looking forward to getting theirs. Their brother just turned 4 so he'll have to wait. Various other nieces and our only nephew are also looking forward to the day their under 12 kids can get vaccinated too.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Of course the internet commentors’ response is that my child should be the one sacrificing for their desires.

I consider vaxing our kids to be a sacrifice on the part of our kids, especially those who don't actually want to be vaccinated.  The vax is / will be harder on kids (on average) than Covid.

FTR I am vaxing my 14yos in order to protect others, not them.  (Well, and to keep them out of quarantine should someone in their vicinity catch Covid.)

So yeah, the internet is demanding our kids sacrifice for the greater good - but not only the way you mean it.

Edited by SKL
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3 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

We know it's at least 6 months and we'll know when it starts to wane since people are being tracked.  There is no way to know if natural immunity is waning until someone gets sick.  

 

I had my antibodies tested before giving plasma. They stopped in December taking my plasma (we were moving anyways). So I had mine tested at a local university doing testing. I still have antibodies 14 months out. 

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4 hours ago, regentrude said:

But it's not just about protecting the vaccinated folks! I don't want the 75% of people in my area who aren't vaxxed to walk around maskless and infect one another, filling up the hospital (just a few months ago, we had a situation where they couldn't find a bed for a patient with brain injury in our entire state) and giving the virus breeding ground to mutate to a form against the vaccine is not effective.

I trust that the vaccine will protect me to a large degree. But it won't protect me against the larger ramifications of an outbreak in the unvaccinated population. It's not just about me as an individual; we are connected as a community,  and people's actions affect others. That's a concept that seems terribly hard to understand for many, and that is disheartening. 

Your comment indicates 75% of the people in your area are unvaxed.  That is certainly not a national number.  The CDC shouldn't base its recommendations on the worst local case IMO.  There are other areas where the vast majority of people at risk of serious Covid effects are well protected.

States, localities, organizations, and individuals have the responsibility for things that are not national phenomena.  This may be hard for them, but IMO what some people are asking of the CDC would only damage the CDC's credibility further.

 

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3 hours ago, regentrude said:

But they are. It's called "school"

Schools can make their own rules regardless of what the CDC says.

I don't see why the angst of this and similar threads isn't directed toward school systems that dropped their mask mandates knowing that their students couldn't be vaccinated before the end of this school year.

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8 minutes ago, SKL said:

Your comment indicates 75% of the people in your area are unvaxed.  That is certainly not a national number.  The CDC shouldn't base its recommendations on the worst local case IMO.  There are other areas where the vast majority of people at risk of serious Covid effects are well protected.

National is around 40% vaccinated, I think. Not a vast difference. 

My point is the same. If those 60% get infected and fill the hospitals, that's affecting others who may be protected against covid via vax, but can still have brain injuries, heart attacks or car accidents.

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3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Schools can make their own rules regardless of what the CDC says.

I don't see why the angst of this and similar threads isn't directed toward school systems that dropped their mask mandates knowing that their students couldn't be vaccinated before the end of this school year.

I'm annoyed with the school systems that have done that, too, but since it happened within hours of the CDC announcement, it's clear that they're linked. I think that was a predictable result and one reason why I think the CDC showed poor judgement in making the announcement when they did and in not clarifying what it meant for places like schools (they've since said they don't recommend getting rid of masking in schools this school year, but...too little, too late in a lot of cases).

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I saw on another page the comment that American health officials tend to use a "lie to comply" method. And I kind of see what they are saying.  It's almost like parenting styles. I am big on telling my kids the truth and respecting their ability to understand directions and facts.  I don't like watching parents do what I consider manipulating and even deceiving their children to get them to comply. 

So I personally think it is disrespectful to "manipulate" projected bad behavior by not being clear with the facts. If people will lie about their vaccine status,  that's a separate issue and a problem of integrity in our country.  I don't believe that is the responsibility of the CDC.  And if we're talking about requiring proof of vaccination,  well, that's another whole rabbit hole of where you stand on medical privacy.

The arguments so far still don't hold water for me. I agree with another poster that it makes more sense to be mad at schools for dropping mask mandates for unvaccinated children than it does being mad at the CDC for stating that vaccinated people don't need masks. 

 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

National is around 40% vaccinated, I think. Not a vast difference. 

My point is the same. If those 60% get infected and fill the hospitals, that's affecting others who may be protected against covid via vax, but can still have brain injuries, heart attacks or car accidents.

It's about 47% (one dose at least), with a much higher distribution in the at-risk groups.  About 10% of the population has had Covid, and while there will be some overlap, it means at least half of the country is well protected from getting/spreading Covid, while a much higher % of those "at risk" are well protected.

They can always change the advice again if infection rates start climbing again.  But right now they are falling.

Edited by SKL
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6 minutes ago, Frances said:

Not a single person you know who got vaccinated has paid sick leave?

I wouldn't plan to take sick leave for a vax.  Most people here try to plan their vaxes right before the weekend [or other days off] in case they can't do much.

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3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

It is privileged to know a mailman or cop or teacher? 

I said the physical and financial costs were too much for those I know who have been vaccinated so they won't do it again. I guess I should have said and/or. A large number of Americans have no paid sick leave. One I know owns her own business. 

It is privileged to think that everyone can simply miss days of work every year for a vaccine that wipes them out for days.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I said the physical and financial costs were too much for those I know who have been vaccinated so they won't do it again. I guess I should have said and/or. A large number of Americans have no paid sick leave. One I know owns her own business. 

It is privileged to think that everyone can simply miss days of work every year for a vaccine that wipes them out for days.

 

 

Are you suggesting that more days of work have been lost to vaccine reactions than to covid? Or??? I mean, yes, it'd be awesome if the vaccine didn't have any side effects, but getting covid is a whole lot harder on people with no sick leave (and everyone else) than getting the vaccine. I don't personally know anyone who was unable to work for more than a day or two, and the vast majority not even that; there are very few people who literally never have a day off and can't schedule shots around those days. ETA: whereas covid requires, what, AT LEAST 7 days off work, even if you have a mild case.

Edited by kokotg
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4 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Lost days of work. Multiply that annually, it's huge.

Anyone who isn't working 7 days/week can schedule a vaccine or booster for one of their days off, or schedule it for the day before their weekend (whichever days they may be) and have the next two days off. And the vast majority of people don't need any time off after the vaccine.

It's also worth pointing out that the people who can least afford to take time off are also most likely to be in jobs with the highest levels of exposure, least likely to have good insurance, and least able to afford the costs of medical treatment if they get sick. Getting a vaccine or booster on a Friday evening or Saturday morning is cheap insurance against an illness that could mean many days or even weeks of lost work, with medical bills on top of that. 

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16 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

It is privileged to think that everyone can simply miss days of work every year for a vaccine that wipes them out for days.

 

That's a lot better than missing weeks to months for getting wiped out by catching the real virus.

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9 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Are you suggesting that more days of work have been lost to vaccine reactions than to covid? Or??? I mean, yes, it'd be awesome if the vaccine didn't have any side effects, but getting covid is a whole lot harder on people with no sick leave (and everyone else) than getting the vaccine. I don't personally know anyone who was unable to work for more than a day or two, and the vast majority not even that; there are very few people who literally never have a day off and can't schedule shots around those days. ETA: whereas covid requires, what, AT LEAST 7 days off work, even if you have a mild case.

I didn't suggest anything other than going through a vaccination every year or less(boosters in the fall?) is not going to fly for a lot of people. My husband has sick pay. The shot had him down for almost a week. He's not getting another one. 

 

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In my local area, upstate NY where we’ve been masking since the beginning, I’ve seen all of the anti mask families I know this week posting messages saying “ha ha, jokes on them... now we don’t have to mask and can just lie about being vaxxed”.  “Sure, I’m vaxxed, wink wink”. Basically bragging about their plans to lie and stop wearing masks.

A school nurse and a few teachers included 😞

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I didn't suggest anything other than going through a vaccination every year or less(boosters in the fall?) is not going to fly for a lot of people. My husband has sick pay. The shot had him down for almost a week. He's not getting another one. 

 

Yep- a lot of my co workers are saying they won’t get a booster due to needing days off (teachers here so technically we have days to use, but zero subs to cover for us)

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I didn't suggest anything other than going through a vaccination every year or less(boosters in the fall?) is not going to fly for a lot of people. My husband has sick pay. The shot had him down for almost a week. He's not getting another one. 

 

It will indeed be unfortunate if enough people make that choice that covid comes back at previous levels. It will cause a whole lot more missed days of work AND a whole lot more death and serious illness. Of course, around half of the people who get vaccinated report no side effects at all other than a sore arm, and only around 1-2% report severe reactions that "prevent daily activity." So your husband is a definite outlier is the good news.

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm seeing 20-30 % or even more of cases are asymptomatic. 

That means 70-80% are symptomatic (and quarantines are required even for asymtomatic cases if there's a known close contact in an unvaccinated person). 

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1 hour ago, kokotg said:

I'm annoyed with the school systems that have done that, too, but since it happened within hours of the CDC announcement, it's clear that they're linked. I think that was a predictable result and one reason why I think the CDC showed poor judgement in making the announcement when they did and in not clarifying what it meant for places like schools (they've since said they don't recommend getting rid of masking in schools this school year, but...too little, too late in a lot of cases).

Thankfully, the school district where I work clarified over the weekend that everyone will be required to continue to mask through the end of the school year. We have been in-person since late August of 2020 (except for when all high schools in our state went virtual from Thanksgiving through Christmas break) and our superintendent has done a great job of putting out consistent messaging about the need to wear masks. I have been very cautious yet have felt comfortable working in person with the many precautions our district put in place.

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm seeing 20-30 % or even more of cases are asymptomatic. 

Even so, that's 70-80% that are symptomatic. I can understand your husband not wanting to get another shot since he reacted badly, but for someone like me who had nothing other than a sore arm, the vaccine was no big deal. I don't know anyone who has reacted as badly as that, and I've probably talked to 20+ people about their experiences. The worst I heard from someone IRL was a 24 hour fever/blah. 

I wonder if there is any connection between reacting strongly to the shot and the possibility of reacting strongly to the real virus. 

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41 minutes ago, SKL said:

I wouldn't plan to take sick leave for a vax.  Most people here try to plan their vaxes right before the weekend [or other days off] in case they can't do much.

Yes, that makes sense. But if it’s not an option, then people who have it can use sick leave. My employer even allows using sick leave for the vax appointment, not just possible after effects.

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29 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I said the physical and financial costs were too much for those I know who have been vaccinated so they won't do it again. I guess I should have said and/or. A large number of Americans have no paid sick leave. One I know owns her own business. 

It is privileged to think that everyone can simply miss days of work every year for a vaccine that wipes them out for days.

 

 

I never said everyone, I said anyone. Personally, I don’t know anyone who felt bad to the level of taking time off work for more than one day. I assume there are some who feel worse longer, but I don’t think being wiped out and missing work for days is the norm.

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11 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I'm seeing 20-30 % or even more of cases are asymptomatic. 

But even they would have to quarantine, so still likely missing more work than for vaccine side effects. I’m sorry to hear your husband had such bad vaccine side effects for so long, but I don’t think that is at all the norm.

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10 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Even so, that's 70-80% that are symptomatic. I can understand your husband not wanting to get another shot since he reacted badly, but for someone like me who had nothing other than a sore arm, the vaccine was no big deal. I don't know anyone who has reacted as badly as that, and I've probably talked to 20+ people about their experiences. The worst I heard from someone IRL was a 24 hour fever/blah. 

I wonder if there is any connection between reacting strongly to the shot and the possibility of reacting strongly to the real virus. 

Symptomatic can be a mild scratchy throat that’s ignored or chalked up to allergies all the way to being hospitalized. It’s not no vaccine or weeks/months of sickness. That’s a false dichotomy.

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4 minutes ago, Frances said:

But even they would have to quarantine, so still likely missing more work than for vaccine side effects. I’m sorry to hear your husband had such bad vaccine side effects for so long, but I don’t think that is at all the norm.

Do you understand that people that cannot miss work did not quarantine in many cases? It could be financially devastating to their families.

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Just now, AbcdeDooDah said:

Symptomatic can be a mild scratchy throat that’s ignored or chalked up to allergies all the way to being hospitalized. It’s not no vaccine or weeks/months of sickness. That’s a false dichotomy.

The way I see it, if I'm not vaccinated, I'm eventually going to catch covid. So either way, I'm rolling the dice on side effects - side effects from the virus, or side effects from the vaccine.

The worst thing that would happen to me with the vaccine would be what happened to your husband, a week of feeling miserable.

The worst thing that would happen to me with actual covid is getting hospitalized or dying. 

So, I'm going to pick the thing that has the least chance of a serious side effect. 

 

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do you understand that people that cannot miss work did not quarantine in many cases? It could be financially devastating to their families.

I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, it's appalling how bad protections for workers are in this country and how many people will work through illnesses (or, I imagine, bad vaccine reactions) because they don't have sick leave. That's probably a lot of the reason we had such uncontrolled spread here. Uncontrolled covid causes much more lost work time than vaccine reactions. Both things are true. 

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4 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Do you understand that people that cannot miss work did not quarantine in many cases? It could be financially devastating to their families.

Having a parent or family member die of Covid would be pretty devastating to a family, I would think.

Bill

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3 minutes ago, Kanin said:

The way I see it, if I'm not vaccinated, I'm eventually going to catch covid. So either way, I'm rolling the dice on side effects - side effects from the virus, or side effects from the vaccine.

The worst thing that would happen to me with the vaccine would be what happened to your husband, a week of feeling miserable.

The worst thing that would happen to me with actual covid is getting hospitalized or dying. 

So, I'm going to pick the thing that has the least chance of a serious side effect. 

 

You might have already had it. 

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1 minute ago, kokotg said:

I'm still not sure what you're trying to say. Yes, it's appalling how bad protections for workers are in this country and how many people will work through illnesses (or, I imagine, bad vaccine reactions) because they don't have sick leave. That's probably a lot of the reason we had such uncontrolled spread here. Uncontrolled covid causes much more lost work time than vaccine reactions. Both things are true. 

I think those reasons, and countries who have their most vulnerable unprotected while Americans clamor for shots for young children are more important than worrying about who’s wearing a mask at Target.

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1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I think those reasons, and countries who have their most vulnerable unprotected while Americans clamor for shots for young children are more important than worrying about who’s wearing a mask at Target.

I have no idea what that has to do with whether people will refuse boosters because of vaccine reactions. I agree that improved sick leave policies would likely be a bigger win for health care in America than universal masking in Target.

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Just now, kokotg said:

I have no idea what that has to do with whether people will refuse boosters because of vaccine reactions. I agree that improved sick leave policies would likely be a bigger win for health care in America than universal masking in Target.

Y’all are worried about people faking being vaccinated when people not getting boosters, people who can’t afford to take time off and countries with no vaccines while we want to vaccinate the least at-risk are going to contribute to the lack of herd immunity.

That’s an awkward sentence, sorry. This is way more interesting than the discussion post I need to write on organized crime(boring!) but it’s due tonight so I must go for now.

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