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CDC mask announcement (a new thread)


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16 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I spent part of today with people less cautious than I am with regards to Covid. They aren’t Covid deniers or anti-maskers. Just less cautious. I took extra for precautions so that I could be with them. I don’t feel angry that I have to take extra precautions. And we had a nice time. (But it helps that while they weren’t as cautious as I was, they didn’t say anything snide or rude to me either..). 

I am going to be seeing some people in this category. I hope they keep comments to themselves. There are snide comments from the past about other subjects, and I already warned the other people who will be present that I will address snide comments head on. I don't want to unnecessarily divide, but my experience of the pandemic has been very different from theirs, and I don't have the bandwidth for snide comments. They are fortunate that there were safer options available to them for social and personal contact the entire pandemic. That is not how it was here. 

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

Do you all think it should be illegal (or is immoral) to drive on weekend nights, while sober, because there are some people who will drive drunk?

Around here we actually have restrictions on when new drivers can drive, so they are less likely to be on the roads during the peak times for unsafe behavior, by themselves and others.  

Just saying.

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My mom actually got the vaccine yesterday!😲 I’m completely shocked because she was adamant she was not going to get it. So, people here are masking more since it’s no longer required and my mother got the vaccine. I don’t know what’s going on anymore. 

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1 minute ago, Joker2 said:

My mom actually got the vaccine yesterday!😲 I’m completely shocked because she was adamant she was not going to get it. So, people here are masking more since it’s no longer required and my mother got the vaccine. I don’t know what’s going on anymore. 

LOL My MIL, who did not vaccinate her children, got it last week with my SIL. You never know. Sometimes the world turns upside down.

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7 hours ago, Catwoman said:

Irrational reactions to rational behavior? Really? 😡

Well, it must be nice to not have to worry about things like whether or not the unmasked person next to you in a store is vaccinated, but some of us really do have to think about things like that. 

I cant speak for anyone else, but when I am cautious around unmasked people, I am not trying to be mean, and I am certainly not saying that I think anyone is trying to kill Grandma.

I am saying that if my dh contracts Covid, it very well might actually KILL HIM, because the vaccines aren’t proving to be effective for organ transplant recipients. So while I do feel badly that I have to view unmasked people with caution, there is simply no way around it. I have to treat every unmasked person as though they are unvaccinated, unless I know for sure that they are vaccinated — and even then, I will be keeping more distance from them than I would if they were masked.

So you can go ahead and feel “kinda disgusted,” but my dh’s life is worth more to me than worrying about your sweeping generalizations about the mindset of those of us who have no other option than to remain extra-vigilant around unmasked people who may be unmasked. 

Instead of judging those of us who have to worry about Covid every time we leave our homes, how about feeling a little sympathy for the fact that we would love to be like you? We would love to be able to toss our masks in the trash and not worry about what will happen if we get Covid. We would love to be able to freely shop in stores and eat in restaurants and have normal lives again. We would love to be able to assume that our family’s vaccinations were totally effective and that we are safe. We really would. But we can’t. 

I’m sorry to be so hard on you, but you seem to be missing the fact that there are lots of people out there who still have very good reasons for being worried when we are around unmasked people. And really, we don’t hate vaccinated people for being unmasked if they feel safe doing so — we just have to be cautious around them because there is no way to tell which people are vaccinated and which people are unvaccinated, and it would be foolhardy in our situations to do otherwise.

Believe me, we are all waiting for the day when we can stop worrying about all of this. It is exhausting and stressful every single day.

This is so well said.  Thank you very much.  I hope your husband continues to avoid getting covid  and also hope that scientists are able to find a better way to vaccinate organ transplant patients so that they can get the benefits the rest of us have with our vaccinations.

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9 minutes ago, Ditto said:

This is so well said.  Thank you very much.  I hope your husband continues to avoid getting covid  and also hope that scientists are able to find a better way to vaccinate organ transplant patients so that they can get the benefits the rest of us have with our vaccinations.

Thanks! I hope so, too!

I am also very hopeful that the oral medication that is now being tested on humans will be a success, because it sounds incredibly promising.

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We had a very "peopley" weekend, with more contact with other people than we have had in a long time. And I'm actually feeling better about it than I expected to.
 
First, we had a piano recital Friday. Everyone wore masks, everyone distanced, and most of the too young to be vaccinated kids at this point performed via video, not in person, so the ones who performed in person were largely the older high school students, especially the seniors. We'd gone back and forth on whether L should participate in person, but once we were all fully vaccinated, it seemed important to have that milestone. 
 
Next, Saturday was L's graduation open house. We did it in a park shelter, so open air. We had the cupcakes boxed so people could take them home, or to another part of the park to eat if they felt more comfortable that way.  Again, everyone wore masks, everyone distanced. Some folks who had younger kids didn't come, which is perfectly understandable. L needed SOMETHING, and this seemed like a reasonably safe option (especially since vaccination was available for the over 16 crowd).
 
Finally, yesterday we stopped by a retirement party for one of DH's co-workers. Few people were masked, and those who were were largely children (and I noticed families with children tended to stay outside), older adults, and a few people I know who have more involved health histories and reason to be cautious. But, pretty much everyone dropped the fact that they were vaccinated into conversation pretty early, at least when they were talking to someone who was masked (my family masked the entire time), and generally people seemed to be trying to space and give consideration, and the back and front doors and windows were open. I know DH's co-worker and his wife are pretty scientifically minded and aware, but they also attend one of the big non-denominational (Evangelical) churches, so I was kind of surprised to see so many people talking about the fact that they were vaccinated, that it felt nice, but weird, to not be wearing a mask, but that they're trusting that the CDC knows what they're doing.
 
I start my summer session today, and I'll be interested in seeing how parents respond to my leaving masks required, but I'm actually feeling a lot more optimistic than I was when I got the email last week.
 
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Posted (edited)

Our church dropped their mask requirement, as of this past weekend. For everyone, not just those who are vaccinated. DH and I attended our small group, but left the kids at home. Our youngest is still only half vaccinated, and we will wait until she is full vaccinated to take the teens back with us.

Our state still technically has a mask mandate for the unvaccinated until June 2. But they said that businesses can follow the CDC guidelines and not require masks for the vaccinated. I really hope that the church is not making a mistake, because I know there are many people who are not getting the vaccine (I don't know percentages, but I know some people personally who are not getting it) and so are still at risk.

Edited by Storygirl
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15 hours ago, Joker2 said:

My mom actually got the vaccine yesterday!😲 I’m completely shocked because she was adamant she was not going to get it. So, people here are masking more since it’s no longer required and my mother got the vaccine. I don’t know what’s going on anymore. 

That’s great!! Any idea why?

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21 hours ago, SKL said:

Do you all think it should be illegal (or is immoral) to drive on weekend nights, while sober, because there are some people who will drive drunk?

If you're going to compare not wearing a mask when unvaccinated to driving drunk, would you be OK with a similar level of restriction to what we have now? Extensive education in schools about the danger of being unmasked? Stopping people in public to ask to see their vaccine card and insurance?  Expensive tickets if you're caught walking without a mask?  Jail for repeat offenders?  

We don't just assume that everyone is going to drive sober.  We take a lot of steps, and invest a lot of money and effort into making sure that people don't.  

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To be clear, I don't think that someone who follows the CDC guidelines and the policies of whatever jurisdiction and business they are in is doing something immoral.  I do think that the guidelines changed too fast, but I have said all along that I think that we should be focusing on getting schools open 100%, and normal visitor access in hospitals and nursing homes, before we remove other restrictions.  

 

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Our church is starting in-person worship on June 27.  When we set that date we’d assumed it would be masked and distanced, but we didn’t formally set the policy because we wanted to see the state of things when we got closer in.  Now I’m not sure what we should do (and I’m part of the group that makes the decision).  I wish that our Governor had held to the previous plan of dropping the state mandate when the vaccination rate reached 70%. 
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I’m a Vaccinated Transplant Recipient. I Don’t Have Antibodies. Now What? https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/opinion/organ-transplant-covid-vaccine.html

 

Screenshot_20210524-152019_NYTimes.jpg

From a food allergy/intolerance perspective, it's often the invitation without any reference to how I can eat that is the most discouraging. It just feels disrespectful when people KNOW I have issues not to bring it up so that I know what their range of tolerance is (will they be annoyed, waive me off, or over accommodate me and make me feel like a freak?). I just want to be able to blend in when I arrive. Not talking about it doesn't allow me to do that, and it just assumes that I'll be fine with flying blind. It's especially annoying if it's an event where I am expected to pay for the privilege of watching everyone else eat catered food, and it's impossible to get answers about what is safe. It's one thing to bring your own food to a potluck and another to bring your own food to a conference with lunch--some venues won't even allow other food in. 

This has to be ten times more annoying when broader health issues are at play. 

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9 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

If you're going to compare not wearing a mask when unvaccinated to driving drunk, would you be OK with a similar level of restriction to what we have now? Extensive education in schools about the danger of being unmasked? Stopping people in public to ask to see their vaccine card and insurance?  Expensive tickets if you're caught walking without a mask?  Jail for repeat offenders?  

We don't just assume that everyone is going to drive sober.  We take a lot of steps, and invest a lot of money and effort into making sure that people don't.  

I've never been stopped while following the law just to see if I was drunk.  (Well, once when I was a teen and the cop thought I was enjoying my car stereo way too much.  But never just for the crime of driving normally.)

As for education etc., we have certainly invested, and continue to invest, tons of time and money into educating people about Covid safety.  That's why so many people are fully vaccinated and not a danger to society.  Which is apparently meaningless to many people on this board.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

I've never been stopped while following the law just to see if I was drunk.  (Well, once when I was a teen and the cop thought I was enjoying my car stereo way too much.  But never just for the crime of driving normally.)

As for education etc., we have certainly invested, and continue to invest, tons of time and money into educating people about Covid safety.  That's why so many people are fully vaccinated and not a danger to society.  Which is apparently meaningless to many people on this board.

I have. multiple times, as part of a provincial spot-check program (RIDE).  It's normal here.

Police set up spot checks and stop every single vehicle, usually on holidays, and usually after bar-closing time.

I actually have a pretty high chance of being stopped tonight as I'll be working a late shift and today is a holiday here, and my route takes by through an intersection where RIDE spot checks have been set up several times before.

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Just now, wathe said:

I have. multiple times, as part of a provincial spot-check program (RIDE).  It's normal here.

Police set up spot checks and stop every single vehicle, usually on holidays, and usually after bar-closing time.

I actually have a pretty high chance of being stopped tonight as I'll be working a late shift and today is a holiday here, and my route takes by through an intersection where RIDE spot checks have been set up several times before.

That’s a thing where I live too.  They set up random check points, usually on back roads but sometimes near a sports event or around the corner from a bar. 

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17 hours ago, Joker2 said:

My mom actually got the vaccine yesterday!😲 I’m completely shocked because she was adamant she was not going to get it. So, people here are masking more since it’s no longer required and my mother got the vaccine. I don’t know what’s going on anymore. 

My in-laws had no intention of getting the vaccine until their kids pointed out they wouldn’t be allowed to see any of the grandkids. That did the trick. Lol

But now they won’t come out to visit because they have to wear a mask on the plane. 🤷‍♀️ I guess seeing their oldest grandkid before he moves overseas isn’t very important after all. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2021 at 9:50 AM, SKL said:

I understand that, but you are surely aware that many good, careful, vaccinated people are also going to take off their masks.

Some of the above messages are basically pressuring fully vaccinated people into wearing masks to avoid hateful feelings that are unfair and irrational.  If you're OK with that, whatever, but I'm entitled to my opinion on it.

Don't create a problem where there is none.  No one here is against good, careful, vaccinated people taking off of their masks.  Even those who want to err on the side of caution and keep their own on.  Saying that they have an internal thought that they aren't sure if everyone who isn't wearing a mask is vaccinated, is not the same as them running after those people with pitchforks. 

No one here is going to hunt you personally down to yell abuse at you for not wearing a mask.  In fact, people have said over and over again that they are trying to be gracious to those in their social circle who are a bit less cautious than they are and are hoping that those people will do the same in return.  Golden rule, time. 

People are recommeding that a mom on another thread allow a teen get together of mostly vaccinated teens.  That doesn't sound like anything extreme to me.  In fact, just the opposite.  (But not the opposite extreme). 

What people are reacting to is your habit of being contrary to so many issues on this board.  Even when you actually do the same as most of us do you still have to use inflammatory language to put us down and to create drama where there is none.  Go pick a fight somewhere else. 

Edited by Jean in Newcastle
I accidentally said unvaccinated instead of vaccinated.
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28 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

What people are reacting to is your habit of being contrary to so many issues on this board.  Even when you actually do the same as most of us do you still have to use inflammatory language to put us down and to create drama where there is none.  Go pick a fight somewhere else. 

Really???

I know my post count is low, but I've been here many years.  I used to post regularly but my account was mixed up in one of the board changes and I've been lurking since then.  I've watched as pretty much everyone who expresses an opinion contrary to the herd has been harassed into silence.

On this very thread I've been called a "liar"because I have no plans of being vaccinated and "ditched" my mask as soon as my governor ditched the mandate.  I'm not lying to anyone.  What do you want me to do, wear a scarlet U on my chest?  In my state, the mandate has been lifted for EVERYONE and it's SUGGESTED that those who aren't vaccinated continue wearing one.  I've heard their suggestion and decided against wearing a mask because:

-- I am not at all afraid of getting covid.  I'm low risk and I know many people who have had it and had nothing worse than a mild cold. 

-- I am not at all convinced that masks do anything to stop the spread.  

-- I am not at all convinced there is a public health reason for me to wear a mask when I have no symptoms. Cases in my county are incredibly low, less than 5 new cases per day per 100,000 people. 

I don't want to argue about any of these points.  They've been hashed and rehashed here and I know I'm not going to change any minds.  You'll keep making your kids wear masks outside and consider anyone who disagrees to be a QAnon follower and a liar and then you'll complain that you have no friends. Well, you do you.  

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20 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

I don't want to argue about any of these points.  They've been hashed and rehashed here and I know I'm not going to change any minds.

If you had some evidence to back some of those up, you might actually change some minds. Or maybe we could change your mind if you were open to evidence, too. I'm all for exchanging information. 

 

20 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

On this very thread I've been called a "liar"because I have no plans of being vaccinated and "ditched" my mask as soon as my governor ditched the mandate.  I'm not lying to anyone.  What do you want me to do, wear a scarlet U on my chest?

No. We'd like you to keep wearing a mask to protect people who can't be vaccinated yet or who have conditions that make them less protected by the vaccines, like having an organ transplant. 

A lot of people on this thread have young kids they are worried about or immunosuppressed friends/relatives. It's not about YOU. It's about them. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

Really???

I know my post count is low, but I've been here many years.  I used to post regularly but my account was mixed up in one of the board changes and I've been lurking since then.  I've watched as pretty much everyone who expresses an opinion contrary to the herd has been harassed into silence.

On this very thread I've been called a "liar"because I have no plans of being vaccinated and "ditched" my mask as soon as my governor ditched the mandate.  I'm not lying to anyone.  What do you want me to do, wear a scarlet U on my chest?  In my state, the mandate has been lifted for EVERYONE and it's SUGGESTED that those who aren't vaccinated continue wearing one.  I've heard their suggestion and decided against wearing a mask because:

-- I am not at all afraid of getting covid.  I'm low risk and I know many people who have had it and had nothing worse than a mild cold. 

-- I am not at all convinced that masks do anything to stop the spread.  

-- I am not at all convinced there is a public health reason for me to wear a mask when I have no symptoms. Cases in my county are incredibly low, less than 5 new cases per day per 100,000 people. 

I don't want to argue about any of these points.  They've been hashed and rehashed here and I know I'm not going to change any minds.  You'll keep making your kids wear masks outside and consider anyone who disagrees to be a QAnon follower and a liar and then you'll complain that you have no friends. Well, you do you.  

Not for anything, but it sure sounds like you want to argue about all of those points because your post is incredibly aggressive. 😉 

I must have missed your other posts in this thread, and I would like to read the ones that led people to call you “a liar,” because I honestly don’t remember them. It’s such a long thread that I’m hoping you can let me know where I can find them, or even quote them in a reply, because I would like to read them. (I’m not being snarky — I really would like to read them!)

Are you still wearing a mask in places that require them for unvaccinated people? Many health care settings and stores are still requiring masks for anyone who is not vaccinated. I am assuming you aren’t pretending to be vaccinated, because you clearly have strong feelings about it.

Oh — I nearly forgot — welcome back to the forum! I remember your username from a while back!

 

 

Edited by Catwoman
Forgot something!
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27 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

Really???

I know my post count is low, but I've been here many years.  I used to post regularly but my account was mixed up in one of the board changes and I've been lurking since then.  I've watched as pretty much everyone who expresses an opinion contrary to the herd has been harassed into silence.

On this very thread I've been called a "liar"because I have no plans of being vaccinated and "ditched" my mask as soon as my governor ditched the mandate.  I'm not lying to anyone.  What do you want me to do, wear a scarlet U on my chest?  In my state, the mandate has been lifted for EVERYONE and it's SUGGESTED that those who aren't vaccinated continue wearing one.  I've heard their suggestion and decided against wearing a mask because:

-- I am not at all afraid of getting covid.  I'm low risk and I know many people who have had it and had nothing worse than a mild cold. 

-- I am not at all convinced that masks do anything to stop the spread.  

-- I am not at all convinced there is a public health reason for me to wear a mask when I have no symptoms. Cases in my county are incredibly low, less than 5 new cases per day per 100,000 people. 

I don't want to argue about any of these points.  They've been hashed and rehashed here and I know I'm not going to change any minds.  You'll keep making your kids wear masks outside and consider anyone who disagrees to be a QAnon follower and a liar and then you'll complain that you have no friends. Well, you do you.  

Very selective quoting by you.

You missed the part where I said that people on this board (in general, because there are always some differences in opinion) have no problem with vaccinated people ditching their mask.  Because whether you agree or not, that is the actual CDC recommendation.  I didn't suggest that people hunt out anyone who goes against CDC guidelines even if my personal OPINION is that your state is playing Russian roulette with people's health by ignoring CDC guidelines (which btw are not made by me).  But "you do you".  And I will be glad that I don't live in your state. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Our church dropped their mask requirement, as of this past weekend. For everyone, not just those who are vaccinated. DH and I attended our small group, but left the kids at home. Our youngest is still only half vaccinated, and we will wait until she is full vaccinated to take the teens back with us.

Our state still technically has a mask mandate for the unvaccinated until June 2. But they said that businesses can follow the CDC guidelines and not require masks for the vaccinated. I really hope that the church is not making a mistake, because I know there are many people who are not getting the vaccine (I don't know percentages, but I know some people personally who are not getting it) and so are still at risk.

Yes, this is the same at our church. No masks as of June 2. Which is not what the CDC advises at all.😢

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8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

No. We'd like you to keep wearing a mask to protect people who can't be vaccinated yet or who have conditions that make them less protected by the vaccines, like having an organ transplant. 

Did you read what I said?  Cases where I live are at 5/100K.  Asymptomatic spread, even among people in the same household, is low.  Yes, some people are high risk and can't be vaccinated.  Any contagious disease is dangerous to them.  Do we all need to wear masks forever?

 

8 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Very selective quoting by you.

You missed the part where I said that people on this board (in general, because there are always some differences in opinion) have no problem with vaccinated people ditching their mask.  Because whether you agree or not, that is the actual CDC recommendation.  I didn't suggest that people hunt out anyone who goes against CDC guidelines even if my personal OPINION is that your state is playing Russian roulette with people's health by ignoring CDC guidelines (which btw are not made by me).  But "you do you".  And I will be glad that I don't live in your state. 

I quoted that section because I felt like SKL was being picked on because she happens to disagree. I've been watching it happen with one poster after another until this is just an echo chamber.

 

18 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Are you still wearing a mask in places that require them for unvaccinated people? Many health care settings and stores are still requiring masks for anyone who is not vaccinated. I am assuming you aren’t pretending to be vaccinated, because you clearly have strong feelings about it.

I'll wear them where they are actually required, like a healthcare setting or on a plane.  If a store is requiring them, I'll take my business elsewhere.  If they are just suggesting them for unvaccinated people, well, see above.

And no one called me personally a liar; they just said that unvaccinated people who go unmasked are lying. I had been thinking about responding to that for a couple of days and held back and then let loose when I saw SKL getting picked on. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I think that once in awhile someone needs to speak up and say that there are lots of people out there who have thoughtfully considered these things and come to different conclusions.

I understand that your dh is high risk and can't be vaccinated and I'm sure that's stressful, but really, look at the stats for your area and see how many new people are actually testing positive.  It might be lower than you think.  

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Don't create a problem where there is none.  No one here is against good, careful, vaccinated people taking off of their masks.  Even those who want to err on the side of caution and keep their own on.  Saying that they have an internal thought that they aren't sure if everyone who isn't wearing a mask is vaccinated, is not the same as them running after those people with pitchforks. 

No one here is going to hunt you personally down to yell abuse at you for not wearing a mask.  In fact, people have said over and over again that they are trying to be gracious to those in their social circle who are a bit less cautious than they are and are hoping that those people will do the same in return.  Golden rule, time. 

 

Yes, this is the position of some people. It’s fine to take outlet for your frustrations on a message board or in your own home, but be publicly gracious.

But there are a number of posts that do indeed read to me as though they are saying all of us should still wear masks, and that the CDC is wrong. Maybe they don’t read that way to you, because they are read through the filter of you and others with your more reasonable view.
 

Many on this board seem to have been much more cautious than public health guidelines ever recommended in this country, and that’s fine, but you can’t expect others to hold that same perspective. I think it’s a minority of people, for example, that have not had their minor children interact with any friends without masks and other precautions since last March. It is hard for me to imagine requiring (rather than encouraging) that of most teens 14-15+, or thinking that just because parents tell them to do this, that they are actually being as careful as you think they are when you can’t see them. 
 

CDC is cautious and slow. They could have made this recommendation months ago. 
They were very slow on schools and outdoor advice, and other things, according some of the experts.
Not only do many people not follow their advice on runny eggs, unpasteurized cheese, alcohol, exercise, and many other things, but even on infectious disease, I saw something about their Zika recommendations and wonder if everyone in the US follows it or even knows about it. https://www.cdc.gov/zika/prevention/sexual-transmission-prevention.html
They recommend, for example, sexual precautions (abstinence or condoms) for pregnant women and their partners when traveling anywhere where Zika has ever been diagnosed, which includes the US (so would include everyone that lives here), most of the rest of N and S America, and France. I am sure we could find other examples where people have no idea they are not following CDC guidelines in some area, or they do know and don’t care, because it is a matter of personal choice. 
 

——————-

I do have a lot of sympathy for those with health concerns that mean they are at much higher risk and that their vaccination may not protect them. But doesn’t this need to be calibrated to pre-pandemic risks? People with certain conditions/meds have to be careful all of the time, not just with Covid, and probably aren’t as protected from other vaccines, either.

Cases of Covid are now below the levels seen in a mild flu season, and no one expected special precautions pre-2020, even though people were certainly contracting flu at group events. And flu vaccines are notorious for their low levels of effectiveness. We have been through a terrible time with a new infectious disease, but now that it is waning, we have to get back to some sort of balance. 
 

Edited by Penelope
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1 minute ago, Muttichen1 said:

Did you read what I said?  Cases where I live are at 5/100K.  Asymptomatic spread, even among people in the same household, is low.  Yes, some people are high risk and can't be vaccinated.  Any contagious disease is dangerous to them.  Do we all need to wear masks forever?

 

I quoted that section because I felt like SKL was being picked on because she happens to disagree. I've been watching it happen with one poster after another until this is just an echo chamber.

 

I'll wear them where they are actually required, like a healthcare setting or on a plane.  If a store is requiring them, I'll take my business elsewhere.  If they are just suggesting them for unvaccinated people, well, see above.

And no one called me personally a liar; they just said that unvaccinated people who go unmasked are lying. I had been thinking about responding to that for a couple of days and held back and then let loose when I saw SKL getting picked on. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I think that once in awhile someone needs to speak up and say that there are lots of people out there who have thoughtfully considered these things and come to different conclusions.

I understand that your dh is high risk and can't be vaccinated and I'm sure that's stressful, but really, look at the stats for your area and see how many new people are actually testing positive.  It might be lower than you think.  

 

Actually, SKL is vaccinated and so are her teens.  She has also masked throughout the pandemic according to her own reports.  So she agrees with me more than she does you at least in actual practice.  My disagreement with her was on her constant arguing - I have no beef at all with her masking or vaccination, which I think was very prudent of her. 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:
1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Did you read what I said?  Cases where I live are at 5/100K.  Asymptomatic spread, even among people in the same household, is low.  Yes, some people are high risk and can't be vaccinated.  Any contagious disease is dangerous to them.  Do we all need to wear masks forever?

I’m definitely relieved at the lower case numbers myself 🙂 . Would higher case numbers change your mind?

Edited by Not_a_Number
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34 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Many on this board seem to have been much more cautious than public health guidelines ever recommended in this country, and that’s fine, but you can’t expect others to hold that same perspective. 

I think it’s smart to have that perspective, lol. But it’s true that I don’t expect most people to agree with me.

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46 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

And no one called me personally a liar; they just said that unvaccinated people who go unmasked are lying.

If an unvaccinated person lives in a state where there is still a mask mandate for unvaccinated people, and the unvaccinated person doesn't mask, then they are, essentially, lying.

At the very least, they are stealing a status they are not entitled to by law. 

If you want to conflate the states without masks mandates with the states that have them, that's your misuse of a conversation. 

You are free to do what you want to in your state without a mask mandate for the unvaccinated. We are free to form an opinion about whether legal action is considerate or inconsiderate. 

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Would higher case numbers change your mind?

Exactly this--if cases go up, would you mask due to being unvaccinated and putting people who can't be vaccinated at risk? Some states had goals that would allow for masks to be put away when cases stay below a certain threshold. I think many of us who are careful would be fine with that and not think that's dishonest or inconsiderate. 

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Our church's verbiage about masks being required disappeared abruptly in the last week or so. Not that it mattered because they didn't actually do what they said they were doing. I think I can safely assume they now no longer care.

Our state has never made churches follow state guidelines, so it was voluntary for all churches from the beginning. It has galled me for months that our church has said one thing and done another, so I am glad they've removed it. Their two-faced response means we're looking for a new church. 

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1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Very selective quoting by you.

You missed the part where I said that people on this board (in general, because there are always some differences in opinion) have no problem with vaccinated people ditching their mask.  Because whether you agree or not, that is the actual CDC recommendation.  I didn't suggest that people hunt out anyone who goes against CDC guidelines even if my personal OPINION is that your state is playing Russian roulette with people's health by ignoring CDC guidelines (which btw are not made by me).  But "you do you".  And I will be glad that I don't live in your state.

You said that, but some others have said they believe it is wrong for vaccinated people to stop masking. Some have said they will think badly of anyone they see without a mask, because in their opinion, responsible/good people keep masking even if they are vaccinated.  I was talking about them.  If you missed those posts, that isn't my fault.

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54 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

I'll wear them where they are actually required, like a healthcare setting or on a plane.  If a store is requiring them, I'll take my business elsewhere.  If they are just suggesting them for unvaccinated people, well, see above.

And no one called me personally a liar; they just said that unvaccinated people who go unmasked are lying. I had been thinking about responding to that for a couple of days and held back and then let loose when I saw SKL getting picked on. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I think that once in awhile someone needs to speak up and say that there are lots of people out there who have thoughtfully considered these things and come to different conclusions.

I understand that your dh is high risk and can't be vaccinated and I'm sure that's stressful, but really, look at the stats for your area and see how many new people are actually testing positive.  It might be lower than you think.  

 

Thanks for explaining! 

I appreciate it that you were kind enough to remember my dh, and I wish the cases were low in our area so we could relax a little, but unfortunately they aren’t. I track the numbers every day, and while they are much lower than they were when Covid was at its peak, they are still way too high for comfort and vaccination rates aren’t where they need to be yet to even begin to approach any kind of herd immunity.  It sounds like things are very good right now where you live, though, and that’s great news! 

I’m glad no one called you a liar, because it’s pretty clear that you are following the rules and you aren’t pretending to be vaccinated in order to go to places that require masks for unvaccinated people. I may not like the rules, because I was really hoping the mask mandates would have remained in effect until a higher percentage of people were vaccinated, but they are what they are.

I’m curious about one thing, though — if not enough people get vaccinated and there is another big surge of Covid in the fall, or if there is an outbreak in your area of a new and dangerous variant, would you start masking again on your own, or would you keep taking your chances and just hope you didn’t catch it? I understand that you don’t feel like you’re at high risk right now, but I guess I’m just wondering if you think masks would help you avoid contracting Covid if the numbers in your area went way up.

I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m grilling you! If you aren’t comfortable answering, please feel free to ignore me! 🙂 

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11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

If an unvaccinated person lives in a state where there is still a mask mandate for unvaccinated people, and the unvaccinated person doesn't mask, then they are, essentially, lying.

At the very least, they are stealing a status they are not entitled to by law

In @Muttichen1’s defense, she is not one of the people who is lying. 

She said that she lives in a place where masks are not required, and she also said that she doesn’t go into stores where masks are required, but she will mask in places like health care settings, so it’s not like she’s one of those people who refuses to mask when she has to go to places where it is required. 

I won’t lie — I wish she would voluntarily continue to mask — but she was gracious enough to answer my questions and it is interesting to hear her point of view. She has always been very nice, so I think she just got angry because she feels like her side isn’t being heard.

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1 minute ago, pinball said:

What is the rate of unvaccinated people who have had Covid?

 

I would also like to know more specific figures about the rate of vaccinated people who are experiencing breakthrough cases of Covid. It seems like they are only counting the most serious cases now, and I think that is a mistake. 

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59 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Yes, this is the position of some people. It’s fine to take outlet for your frustrations on a message board or in your own home, but be publicly gracious.

But there are a number of posts that do indeed read to me as though they are saying all of us should still wear masks, and that the CDC is wrong. Maybe they don’t read that way to you, because they are read through the filter of you and others with your more reasonable view.
 

Many on this board seem to have been much more cautious than public health guidelines ever recommended in this country, and that’s fine, but you can’t expect others to hold that same perspective. I think it’s a minority of people, for example, that have not had their minor children interact with any friends without masks and other precautions since last March. It is hard for me to imagine requiring (rather than encouraging) that of most teens 14-15+, or thinking that just because parents tell them to do this, that they are actually being as careful as you think they are when you can’t see them. 
 

CDC is cautious and slow. They could have made this recommendation months ago. 
They were very slow on schools and outdoor advice, and other things, according some of the experts.
Not only do many people not follow their advice on runny eggs, unpasteurized cheese, alcohol, exercise, and many other things, but even on infectious disease, I saw something about their Zika recommendations and wonder if everyone in the US follows it or even knows about it. https://www.cdc.gov/zika/prevention/sexual-transmission-prevention.html
They recommend, for example, sexual precautions (abstinence or condoms) for pregnant women and their partners when traveling anywhere where Zika has ever been diagnosed, which includes the US (so would include everyone that lives here), most of the rest of N and S America, and France. I am sure we could find other examples where people have no idea they are not following CDC guidelines in some area, or they do know and don’t care, because it is a matter of personal choice. 
 

——————-

I do have a lot of sympathy for those with health concerns that mean they are at much higher risk and that their vaccination may not protect them. But doesn’t this need to be calibrated to pre-pandemic risks? People with certain conditions/meds have to be careful all of the time, not just with Covid, and probably aren’t as protected from other vaccines, either.

Cases of Covid are now below the levels seen in a mild flu season, and no one expected special precautions pre-2020, even though people were certainly contracting flu at group events. And flu vaccines are notorious for their low levels of effectiveness. We have been through a terrible time with a new infectious disease, but now that it is waning, we have to get back to some sort of balance. 
 

I am middle of the road. I am vaccinated. I mask in groups (which is still required in most stores here and is still recommended by the county). I also go to restaurants (distanced, mostly outdoor dining). I have never masked outdoors. I am around some people who don’t mask in groups. It makes me a bit uncomfortable but I realize that my being vaccinated protects me pretty well and I can’t police their behavior. 
 

I have no problem with other people sharing different perspectives unless they are rude and combative. But I would have the same negative reaction to someone who I agreed with if they were rude and combative. I don’t, however, think that differing opinions in and of themselves are rude. I do prefer people share reasons for their opinions in a debate but I was taught that that was part of the debate process. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Penelope said:

——————-

I do have a lot of sympathy for those with health concerns that mean they are at much higher risk and that their vaccination may not protect them. But doesn’t this need to be calibrated to pre-pandemic risks? People with certain conditions/meds have to be careful all of the time, not just with Covid, and probably aren’t as protected from other vaccines, either.
 

I wanted to add that if I knew that someone in a smaller group I was part of was in this category, still in danger and not feeling comfortable attending without certain precautions, I would be happy to put on a mask or meet outside for a while longer so that they could come. 
 

That’s a little different than trying to keep everyone wearing them at Walmart for another few months. 
 

Last week I went to a store where masks were optional for the vaccinated. So my children wore them and I did, too, because they are my kids and when they wear them and I’m with them, I will do the same. 

Edited by Penelope
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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m definitely relieved at the lower case numbers myself 🙂 . Would higher case numbers change your mind?

 

34 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I’m curious about one thing, though — if not enough people get vaccinated and there is another big surge of Covid in the fall, or if there is an outbreak in your area of a new and dangerous variant, would you start masking again on your own, or would you keep taking your chances and just hope you didn’t catch it? I understand that you don’t feel like you’re at high risk right now, but I guess I’m just wondering if you think masks would help you avoid contracting Covid if the numbers in your area went way up.

I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m grilling you! If you aren’t comfortable answering, please feel free to ignore me! 🙂 

Maybe? I'd have to be convinced that masks actually work. What I would do (and what I am doing now and have always done) is to stop from spreading germs in ways we know are effective -- keeping some distance, staying home when I'm sick, washing hands obsessively when I've been in public, not touching my face, and so on. I'm a germophobe anyway and I rarely get even a cold. 

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Just now, Muttichen1 said:

Maybe? I'd have to be convinced that masks actually work. What I would do (and what I am doing now and have always done) is to stop from spreading germs in ways we know are effective -- keeping some distance, staying home when I'm sick, washing hands obsessively when I've been in public, not touching my face, and so on. I'm a germophobe anyway and I rarely get even a cold. 

Makes sense. If you want to talk about why people think masks work at some point, I'm definitely interested in discussing. 

For the record, I think that keeping some distance and staying home work better than masks. Although I think you have to be more careful than just staying home when sick -- pre-symptomatic spread is definitely a thing. 

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Btw- and I am not sure which posts I am responding to- but the views of regular citizens- whether I agree with them or not- really don’t change public health policy. So no matter what our opinions are, no one has to fear that my opinion is going to infringe on someone’s rights or on the flip side, get them sick.   My actions on the other hand, could, I suppose do either, depending on what they are. Though my personal actions are probably fairly benign and now that I am vaccinated, probably don’t put most people in danger and since I am not tackling people to put masks on them or to forceably vaccinate them, their rights are also safe. 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

 

Maybe? I'd have to be convinced that masks actually work. What I would do (and what I am doing now and have always done) is to stop from spreading germs in ways we know are effective -- keeping some distance, staying home when I'm sick, washing hands obsessively when I've been in public, not touching my face, and so on. I'm a germophobe anyway and I rarely get even a cold. 

All of those are precautions that would have been good last year when CDC was still saying the virus wasn’t airborne. But they have now admitted what everyone else knew, that it’s airborne.   Washing hands and not touching your face won’t help you not breathe it in.  Neither will distance if you are in a place with poor ventilation.  The particles can travel much further than 6 ft.  Not trying to change your mind because I suspect that’s not something you’re interested in.  Just giving you the most update information to base your decision on. Or to disregard, whatever suites you.  

Edited by HeartString
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2 hours ago, Muttichen1 said:

I quoted that section because I felt like SKL was being picked on because she happens to disagree. I've been watching it happen with one poster after another until this is just an echo chamber.

The echo chamber argument might make sense if everyone here was suggesting something other than things that are widely agreed-upon.  It’s like a flat earther coming in and insisting the earth is flat and then calling this an echo chamber because a bunch of the same posters refute that statement anytime anyone comes on and says the earth is flat.

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I would also like to know more specific figures about the rate of vaccinated people who are experiencing breakthrough cases of Covid. It seems like they are only counting the most serious cases now, and I think that is a mistake. 

I totally agree that is a mistake. I know they have shared why they are doing it that way, but I think it is more detrimental than helpful to do it that way and sounds bad messaging.  We do have some good numbers on this from very large studies, though, and the rate of breakthrough cases is low.

45 minutes ago, Muttichen1 said:

 

Maybe? I'd have to be convinced that masks actually work. What I would do (and what I am doing now and have always done) is to stop from spreading germs in ways we know are effective -- keeping some distance, staying home when I'm sick, washing hands obsessively when I've been in public, not touching my face, and so on. I'm a germophobe anyway and I rarely get even a cold. 

Never mind, Jean and HeartString just addressed the same things I was thinking about this (and said it better).

 

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13 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Btw- and I am not sure which posts I am responding to- but the views of regular citizens- whether I agree with them or not- really don’t change public health policy. So no matter what our opinions are, no one has to fear that my opinion is going to infringe on someone’s rights or on the flip side, get them sick.   My actions on the other hand, could, I suppose do either, depending on what they are. Though my personal actions are probably fairly benign and now that I am vaccinated, probably don’t put most people in danger and since I am not tackling people to put masks on them or to forceably vaccinate them, their rights are also safe. 

This is more of a general response, but I’m quoting Jean because we’re in agreement.

I and my children are immune compromised. Our actions don’t impact anyone else.  I’m not infringing on anyone’s rights, nor am I potentially exposing them to a load of asymptomatically transmitted Covid germs that I don’t know I’m carrying. Everyone in my family who can be vaccinated is vaccinated, we follow the CDC guidelines on masking.  When we are all together, inside in public, we all mask along with unvaxxed DD, in solidarity (this is rare).  DH and I still mask when it’s just us in stores, but we don’t mask outside. We have a low number of vaccinated people in our area, and a lot of outright hostility to masking, so when we are inside in a public place we accept that there will be a number of unmasked, unvaccinated people.  We respond accordingly, by keeping unvaxxed DD away from those areas with the unvaccinated strangers, whose practices we don’t know (they could be fine, but the point is ... we don’t know that, and we value our DD’s health above inadvertently making random unvaccinated people feel extra comfortable ignoring the advice of the CDC).  I would never be rude to someone about wearing or not wearing a mask, but I might not want my unvaxxed DD near an unmasked random person in public, and might gently, discreetly, direct her to a different area.  

We are conscious of not making anyone uncomfortable, and we understand that all people have different comfort levels. I wouldn’t go out of my way to make someone feel bad for not masking, and I’d like the same consideration for masking.  We have a lot of experience with different comfort levels and adjusting our expectations, due to other health issues, so we try to be considerate of others.  When other people do the same, we are grateful. I don’t know what issues others might have, or not have, and I treat them  the way I would want to be treated, with kindness and respect. (For example, I was outside unmasked, but when a masked person had to come over to talk to me, I put mine on, since she was wearing hers and I didn’t want her to feel uncomfortable.)

I have said this multiple times here: my family lives in a small area that is outright hostile to masking.  DH and I have been accosted loudly by unmasked random people when in public several times, during our state’s mask mandate.  We were following the mandate, had masks on, but otherwise look pretty average, no offensive clothing or messaging on our persons, this was purely about masks. I have definitely vented about those people here.  I find their actions disgusting, rude, and with kids who have nearly died from catching a common cold, with my cruddy immune situation, yeh, I found it threatening to have someone’s spittle in my face while our numbers were raging. It’s not like I was out doing unnecessary things - these were necessary trips that should be able to happen safely and pretty normally.  I’d have been upset in a non-pandemic year to be treated that way, too.  I am not a person to approach people yelling and getting into faces.  It’s not how I behave. I think all people have a need to feel safe, and I tend to follow other’s leads and go with the lowest common denominator so everyone feels safe.  Like the masking outside example above - I felt safe unmasked, other person did not.  It didn’t cost me any pain or agony to put on a mask for a few minutes to make her feel better.  It wa a common courtesy.

Again, I don’t think anyone posting on this board acts hostile to people IRL. Really, SKL can say what she will to be contrary, because that’s her thing here, but she’s vaccinated, she masks where required, and so do her kids, according to her. I don’t believe for a second that she’s chasing immune compromised women through a store, mask down, ranting, and spewing spittle while two feet from the woman’s face - when there’s a statewide mask mandate. I just don’t think any poster here is doing that. But it doesn’t mean there aren’t anti-mask people acting that way where some of us live.  Sadly. It colors perspectives, for sure. 

Conversely, I don’t think anyone posting here about wearing masks is chasing down people yelling at them and publicly shaming them in Target.  I have faith in our fellow boardies here, that while we might wish things were one way or another, we mostly are not running out and putting other people at risk or accosting strangers in public who don’t seem to agree with us.

On the lying issue:  I was taught, growing up, that lying by omission is still lying.  Maybe not everyone has that basis for understanding lying.

So, generally speaking here, not directing this at anyone here, more at people in my area: if someone walks into Starbucks without a mask, after reading the sign that requests that unvaccinated people wear masks, then they are implying that they are vaccinated.  Or maybe they just don’t care for Starbucks management, which makes me think they should shop somewhere else anyway.  If you’re going to take a stand against vaccines and masking - own it.  But don’t imply you’re vaxxed so you can sneak into Starbucks to get a Frappuccino when the urge hits, implying by omission that you’re vaccinated so you can get away with something.  Have some principles.  If you can’t bring yourself to mask, fine, find a copycat recipe for your Frap fix and don’t check your principles at the Starbucks sign while you imply that you’re vaxxed when you’re not.  

I want to trust everyone that isn’t masked, indoors in a place with a sign that requests that the unvaccinated wear a mask, will be vaccinated.  But, in my area ... that trust would be misplaced.  Those of you who live in areas that are different - you’re fortunate!

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While at this point I'm not sure anything short of a study where they put 10,000 people without covid in an enclosed space for 8 hours with a bunch of covid positive people and gave half of them masks and half of them nothing (which, obviously, isn't going to happen) would convince those who are still mask skeptics...here's an interesting report from the CDC that showed a 37% reduction in cases in schools that required teachers and staff to mask vs. those that didn't. Improved ventilation was similarly helpful (39% reduction). Interestingly, they didn't see the same reduction when student masking was required. I would guess that's because they only looked at K-5, so generally kids under 10 who seem to spread covid at a much lower rate than older kids and adults. (I saw another report recently that showed that it was considerably more common for teachers to spread to students than the other way around, although there were cases of both). I'd love to see a report on high schools and/or middle schools to see how they compared. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e1.htm?s_cid=mm7021e1_w

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2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I would also like to know more specific figures about the rate of vaccinated people who are experiencing breakthrough cases of Covid. It seems like they are only counting the most serious cases now, and I think that is a mistake. 

I am following reports from my country of origin as they are having community clusters from the more contagious B.1.617 variant. Vaccinated people tend to be asymptomatic which makes it harder to detect. Quarantine for B.1.617 variant was extended to 21 days from 14 days, as people were testing negative and then positive after 14 days. 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/covid-19-vaccination-effectiveness-moh-ong-ye-kung-14869342

“SINGAPORE: A total of 78 COVID-19 cases in the current outbreak have been vaccinated - many of whom are frontline workers - compared to about 300 unvaccinated cases, said Health Minister Ong Ye Kung on Sunday (May 23).

The numbers represent a ratio of about 79 per cent unvaccinated cases versus 21 per cent vaccinated ones.”

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

The echo chamber argument might make sense if everyone here was suggesting something other than things that are widely agreed-upon.  It’s like a flat earther coming in and insisting the earth is flat and then calling this an echo chamber because a bunch of the same posters refute that statement anytime anyone comes on and says the earth is flat.

I totally agree that is a mistake. I know they have shared why they are doing it that way, but I think it is more detrimental than helpful to do it that way and sounds bad messaging.  We do have some good numbers on this from very large studies, though, and the rate of breakthrough cases is low.

Never mind, Jean and HeartString just addressed the same things I was thinking about this (and said it better).

 

But there are some things that are NOT flat earth material either.  There are nuances that this board misses sometimes.  I am a lot like Jean except I haven't done dining until very recently and even then, the time we went, we chose to eat outdoors. No one in my circle of friends has berated me for wearing a mask.  Some of them put on masks as well just to make me feel comfortable. One particular couple are our best friends. They are not getting vaccinated.  They have all of their other vaccines. They are not anti-mask. Yet I feel like this board would hate them.  Maybe not.  Sounds like Jean and others are more reasonable.  But many times this board has truly sounded like a sounding board with no room for nuance.

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8 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But there are some things that are NOT flat earth material either.  There are nuances that this board misses sometimes.  I am a lot like Jean except I haven't done dining until very recently and even then, the time we went, we chose to eat outdoors. No one in my circle of friends has berated me for wearing a mask.  Some of them put on masks as well just to make me feel comfortable. One particular couple are our best friends. They are not getting vaccinated.  They have all of their other vaccines. They are not anti-mask. Yet I feel like this board would hate them.  Maybe not.  Sounds like Jean and others are more reasonable.  But many times this board has truly sounded like a sounding board with no room for nuance.

Why would any of us hate your friends? They sound very kind and considerate.

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19 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

But there are some things that are NOT flat earth material either.  There are nuances that this board misses sometimes.  I am a lot like Jean except I haven't done dining until very recently and even then, the time we went, we chose to eat outdoors. No one in my circle of friends has berated me for wearing a mask.  Some of them put on masks as well just to make me feel comfortable. One particular couple are our best friends. They are not getting vaccinated.  They have all of their other vaccines. They are not anti-mask. Yet I feel like this board would hate them.  Maybe not.  Sounds like Jean and others are more reasonable.  But many times this board has truly sounded like a sounding board with no room for nuance.

I don't know.  I feel like I am very nuanced.  We follow the rules,  have been cautious, but have done many things that there are those on these board would have disagreed with.  We live in a metropolitan area which has often had high levels and yet we've let our kids work, go to youth group, play outside (masked), we never had groceries delivered.  However, I've never felt attacked by "the board" and have always felt I could share what we do.  I can think of maybe one person who would attack me on these decisions, but one person does not make "a board."  Seeing it as such is a cognitive distortions called magnification.  Sure, people disagree, but I just don't see an echo chamber here. I find most people are nuanced about their response. Most people are navigating risk on a daily basis. I also hear the other side loud and clear.

I agree with Cat, your friends sound really considerate.

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