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Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

I think if an activated immune system causes a side effect, that's definitely a vaccine side effect. You can think it's worth it, but it's still a real thing. 

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Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

Ps- on the advice of people here on this board I still reported it on v-safe. 

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8 hours ago, KSera said:

Right. I’m also wondering how the people who deny any benefit from masks explain the almost non existent flu season this year. 

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

5 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

The shingles vaccine is on my 50th birthday to-do list (or shortly thereafter). I had shingles in high school, and it was bad enough. I know it's worse the older you are when you have it.

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8 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

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1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Yeah, that's why the CDC information that includes the placebo group is so interesting to me...a lot of the common side effects are pretty general. It also tracks pretty well with the range and frequency of side effects in my family and people I know. 

I see the same issue with a lot of the long Covid data and reporting. There are all these symptoms, but no control. 
 

And simple lists of symptoms with percentages don’t get at the quality of the symptoms. I think they do list severity, and the severity of the symptoms was greater with Pfizer than placebo, not just the number of people who had them.

Fatigue when your body is physiologically stressed, from an illness or a vaccine like these, doesn't necessarily feel the same as being a little tired or low energy. But both people would check off the “fatigue” box.

And the charts don’t get at things like this:

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

On the other hand, I heard enough people describe the exact same stupid headache starting at the back of the neck that it was much clearer that this headache must be vaccine-related. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Some say the normal flu count was recycled into being Covid. 

I actually wondered if that would happen, because I thought a lot of people would be doing drive-up Covid testing for symptoms instead of getting a flu test at the doctor like they normally would. But I guess there was still plenty of flu testing being done, and there is no hiding the lack of people in the hospital for flu.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

It's one of the conspiracy theories. Even people not explicitly into conspiracies are passing this one along. 

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46 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I actually wondered if that would happen, because I thought a lot of people would be doing drive-up Covid testing for symptoms instead of getting a flu test at the doctor like they normally would. But I guess there was still plenty of flu testing being done, and there is no hiding the lack of people in the hospital for flu.

Early on when testing was scarce, there were definitely Covid cases being missed because someone tested positive for flu. Experts were proclaiming that you couldn't really have both, and since testing was scarce, you got a Covid test only if your flu test was negative. My DH works in healthcare and was appalled they would say so. Multiple infections with multiple diseases is pretty much always a possible scenario, if atypical. Many people are prone to strep with any illness they get, for instance, and some people get multiple flu strains at once. 

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2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I had a fibro flare after my first vaccine. But I don’t count that as a vaccine side effect as such. All sorts of stressors - physical and emotional can trigger a flare. That doesn’t  mean that the vaccine ingredients themselves or the mechanism of the vaccine caused the flare. It just means that my body experienced some stress. 

Okay, the ingredients may not have caused it but the result was triggered from increased stress, from the vaccine, no? 
Plus, you know what a flare looks and feels like. Imagine having no history or warning signs or even symptoms that are obvious that it’s a flare. People with long covid or previous covid could have unknown nerve damage as we know it gets into the CNS. It may be stress related but it was also vaccine related, and in some cases, covid related.

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13 minutes ago, Plum said:

Okay, the ingredients may not have caused it but the result was triggered from increased stress, from the vaccine, no? 
Plus, you know what a flare looks and feels like. Imagine having no history or warning signs or even symptoms that are obvious that it’s a flare. People with long covid or previous covid could have unknown nerve damage as we know it gets into the CNS. It may be stress related but it was also vaccine related, and in some cases, covid related.

I get what you’re saying but it could have been triggered by lack of sleep, stress from daily life during a pandemic, gremlins...  (Joking about the gremlins, of course, but sometimes flares seem so random!). 

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7 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Not particularly looking forward to getting the Shingrex vaccine. However I got shingles at 50 and sweet-mother-of-god that was a painful experience.

I've always considered myself a tough guy with a very high pain threshold, but shingles took me to my knees.

Had a person inflicted that sort of nerve pain on me, I'd charge them with crimes against humanity. No joke. Torture.

Bill

I had a majorly sore arm, hot to the touch, for three days with both shingles vax shots. SO worth it! 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m not understanding. Samples are specifically tested as either flu or Covid. A flu case doesn’t get counted as a Covid case unless that person had Covid as well and the flu got missed. Or are you just saying that some people like to say that, even though it’s not true?

Just to nerd out a bit, one of the doctors I follow was talking about a theory that basically says COVID in the body blocks the way for flu, like COVID is filling the receptors in your nose so flu can’t get.  You could have a flu virus try but there’s no place for it to get so it just dies.  That was his idea for why we had so little flu, in addition to the cleaning and masks.  And kids not being in school, since kids are usually vectors.  
 

https://zdoggmd.com/viral-interference/

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

Edited by HeartString
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I read somewhere (months back) that some of the nonactive ingredients in the vaccine are in the placebo as well. Anyone know if that is accurate? Maybe it was one of those ingredients that caused those particular side effects. 

 

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

That seems pretty unlikely, although I'd be curious if anyone knows what they used as placebo. 

The placebo used in the Pfizer trial was saline:

"Trial Procedure

With the use of an interactive Web-based system, participants in the trial were randomly assigned in a 1:1 ratio to receive 30 μg of BNT162b2 (0.3 ml volume per dose) or saline placebo."

 

Edited by wathe
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8 hours ago, Plum said:

Okay, the ingredients may not have caused it but the result was triggered from increased stress, from the vaccine, no? 
Plus, you know what a flare looks and feels like. Imagine having no history or warning signs or even symptoms that are obvious that it’s a flare. People with long covid or previous covid could have unknown nerve damage as we know it gets into the CNS. It may be stress related but it was also vaccine related, and in some cases, covid related.

No. Not necessarily at all. I think this is your bias coming through, wanting to pin any flare on the vaccine. Those of us who live with AI illnesses and other illness that flare occasionally know it doesn't work like that. I suspect that few of us live such simple lives that we could accurately, unequivocally say that a vaccine caused a flare or not. I know I would have to consciously attempt to live a perfect life for several days before and after to be able to even have a small chance of determining that. A "perfect life" would mean enough activity but not too much, nothing at all that caused any of my muscles or joints to tense up in the least, enough sleep, no stress at all, etc.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I got my first vaccine and had an RA flare afterwards. Now maybe it was the vaccine. But after the appointment I had to drive home in a pounding rain. Really heavy stuff, to the point that multiple times I considered pulling over somewhere and waiting it out. But I chose to drive on. I was tense. Hands clenched on the wheel, overall body tension. If I had flared afterwards I'd have no way of knowing whether it was from the vaccine or from being so tense from driving in a torrential downpour. History tells me the latter can cause a small flare, but I have no experience with flares after vaccines (including very recent experience with the Shingrex vaccines). But OTOH the experts tell me the Covid vaccines can trigger flares. So . . how do I decide? I can't. I could choose one or the other, but it would be bias driving the choice. So I say I can't decide, I don't know which caused it. I'm not going to say it was the vaccine or it wasn't. Either way would just be guessing.

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46 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

No. Not necessarily at all. I think this is your bias coming through, wanting to pin any flare on the vaccine. Those of us who live with AI illnesses and other illness that flare occasionally know it doesn't work like that. I suspect that few of us live such simple lives that we could accurately, unequivocally say that a vaccine caused a flare or not. I know I would have to consciously attempt to live a perfect life for several days before and after to be able to even have a small chance of determining that. A "perfect life" would mean enough activity but not too much, nothing at all that caused any of my muscles or joints to tense up in the least, enough sleep, no stress at all, etc.

Let me give you an example. Let's say I got my first vaccine and had an RA flare afterwards. Now maybe it was the vaccine. But after the appointment I had to drive home in a pounding rain. Really heavy stuff, to the point that multiple times I considered pulling over somewhere and waiting it out. But I chose to drive on. I was tense. Hands clenched on the wheel, overall body tension. If I had flared afterwards I'd have no way of knowing whether it was from the vaccine or from being so tense from driving in a torrential downpour. History tells me the latter can cause a small flare, but I have no experience with flares after vaccines (including very recent experience with the Shingrex vaccines). But OTOH the experts tell me the Covid vaccines can trigger flares. So . . how do I decide? I can't. I could choose one or the other, but it would be bias driving the choice. So I say I can't decide, I don't know which caused it. I'm not going to say it was the vaccine or it wasn't. Either way would just be guessing.

I had the same sort of thing-hives for several days following the vaccine dose. But, I have hashimoto's, and I'm one of the lucky people who gets hives as a result when my immune system is upset at all. So, while I reported them to VaxSafe, mentally I'm considering that a side effect of Hashimoto's, not necessarily the vaccine. Because yeah, that's a logical reason for my immune system to be upset, but I'm getting the same symptoms now, and it's probably because we have L's grad party tomorrow!!

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6 hours ago, HeartString said:

Just to nerd out a bit, one of the doctors I follow was talking about a theory that basically says COVID in the body blocks the way for flu, like COVID is filling the receptors in your nose so flu can’t get.  You could have a flu virus try but there’s no place for it to get so it just dies.  That was his idea for why we had so little flu, in addition to the cleaning and masks.  And kids not being in school, since kids are usually vectors.  
 

https://zdoggmd.com/viral-interference/

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

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5 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

A Baby Yoda hand sanitizer carrier is my daughters most prized possession at the moment.  She has the cleanest hands right now. 

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11 minutes ago, HeartString said:

A Baby Yoda hand sanitizer carrier is my daughters most prized possession at the moment.  She has the cleanest hands right now. 

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

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7 hours ago, HeartString said:

 

 

I personally think it was less international travel and the kids not being in school thing. 

So many kids were in school, though--I think it was 50% by winter. That would explain a big reduction in flu, but not it being almost non-existent. Most of the kids who were in school were wearing masks, though. I suspect people being more likely to stay home when they were sick this year had something to do with it, too. It would be interesting to see numbers on whether flu was more prevalent in areas where kids were in school and also to see if mask mandates (in schools, especially, but elsewhere, too) correlated with local flu numbers. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As someone who teaches little kids, who were mostly in school/daycare, and had excellent attendance and never had even a cold myself, I am crediting the masks, handwashing, and greater spacing in the room. Because I never got sneezed on by a child, not even when one of my four year olds had "allergies" and was snotting up a storm. The kid went through four masks in a 30 minute lesson, but it didn't get all over me or the piano. 

 

I am really hoping that if I have cute masks available and encourage it, kids will be willing to mask during cold and flu season in future years. I've discovered that the Asian grocery stocks child sized disposable ones with little pandas, dinosaurs, Hello Kitty, etc, and my kids have been more than willing to get a fresh one if needed, so I am hoping that will continue in future cold and flu seasons. 

I think if we can stay/become a society where it's socially unacceptable to be in public places while sick (instead of stuff like perfect attendance and not taking sick days being valorized) and where it's expected to wear masks much more frequently, we can save a ton of lives and keep a ton of people out of the hospital every year. One thing I've learned this year is how rarely it actually is "just allergies" for me. ETA: of course a lot of the responsibility for it becoming socially unacceptable to be out when sick lies with employers and with policies around sick leave, not with individuals.

Edited by kokotg
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11 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

The idea that soap and towels weren’t available in all schools prior to this is mind-boggling to me.  But you’re not the first person I’ve heard it from.

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22 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

I'm hoping for this, also, and continued masking during flu season as well.

There may be a holdover: I was a child during the 1970s energy crisis, and I still can't bear to leave a room without turning off the lights. Unfortunately I'm pretty certain society in general hasn't retained the same concerns, and sanitation may follow the same pattern, unless we reinforce the message every year.

Here's hoping Covid isn't enough of a concern next winter that we're still masking out of necessity, because of it. It could be, depending on how things go.

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In order for masks and sanitizing to be the cause of reduced flu, you’d have to have some flu around in the first place. It would be very hard to say that masks were the primary reason or even *a reason, as we also had distancing and hyperawareness of illness.

I think it wasn’t introduced very much due to lack of travel. It never broke out in the Southern Hemisphere last summer, either. And everyone there wasn’t masking everywhere. It could have been a fairly light flu year even without Covid, since we have those every so often. 
 

We’ll never know. And there is much that isn’t known about influenza. This just came out, showing that about half of flu infections are asymptomatic, and that asymptomatic infected people can transmit to others. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214109X21001418

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16 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

I'm hoping for this, also, and continued masking during flu season as well.

I don’t. Only to the extent that someone who feels like they might be coming down with something, or thinks they might have flu, feels comfortable wearing a mask if they have to go out. 
 

I do not see us becoming a culture that masks every winter. 
Although if we did that this winter, and maybe some communities will, it would be a good test of masking, and maybe someone will study it. 
 

If they do work, I am not sure of the long term effects of preventing infection with mostly benign respiratory viruses in young, healthy people. Isn’t there a chance that would come back to bite us with inadequate immunity later on? 
 

What would be cool is if they reduced not infection, but viral load of an infection, so that we could develop some immunity without getting sick. 

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@Not_a_Number, @whitestavern

It looks like the the Modena placebo was also saline (quote from the clinical study protocol:

 

"Investigational Product, Dosage, and Route of Administration:

The mRNA-1273 IP is an LNP dispersion of an mRNA encoding the prefusion stabilized S protein of SARS-CoV-2 formulated in LNPs composed of 4 lipids (1 proprietary and 3 commercially available): the proprietary ionizable lipid SM-102; cholesterol; 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3 phosphocholine (DSPC); and 1monomethoxypolyethyleneglycol-2,3-dimyristylglycerol with polyethylene glycol of average molecular weight 2000 (PEG2000-DMG). The mRNA-1273 is provided as a sterile liquid for injection and is a white to off-white dispersion in appearance, at a concentration of 0.2 mg/mL in 20 mM Tris buffer containing 87mg/mL sucrose and 10.7 mM sodium acetate at pH 7.5.

The placebo is 0.9% sodium chloride (normal saline) injection, which meets the criteria of the United States Pharmacopeia (USP).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Penelope said:

I don’t. Only to the extent that someone who feels like they might be coming down with something, or thinks they might have flu, feels comfortable wearing a mask if they have to go out. 
 

I do not see us becoming a culture that masks every winter. 
Although if we did that this winter, and maybe some communities will, it would be a good test of masking, and maybe someone will study it. 
 

If they do work, I am not sure of the long term effects of preventing infection with mostly benign respiratory viruses in young, healthy people. Isn’t there a chance that would come back to bite us with inadequate immunity later on? 
 

What would be cool is if they reduced not infection, but viral load of an infection, so that we could develop some immunity without getting sick. 

In Asian countries masking is the norm.  I’ve never seen anything saying they have weaker immune systems generally.  I wonder if there are studies on that. 

If masking to avoid illness lowered immunity in general, I wonder why we don’t see that as an issue with hand washing.  That lowers our exposure to germs, so it should have same effect I would think.  Are there cultures that don’t wash hands less frequently in general?  I wonder if they have stronger immune systems.  
 

To the bolded, some doctors have speculated that masking does exactly that. 

Edited by HeartString
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22 minutes ago, HeartString said:

In Asian countries masking is the norm.  I’ve never seen anything saying they have weaker immune systems generally.  I wonder if there are studies on that. 

If masking to avoid illness lowered immunity in general, I wonder why we don’t see that as an issue with hand washing.  That lowers our exposure to germs, so it should have same effect I would think.  Are there cultures that don’t wash hands less frequently in general?  I wonder if they have stronger immune systems.  
 

To the bolded, some doctors have speculated that masking does exactly that. 

I think a lot of people don't wash hands in according with guidelines.  In fact, I would guess the % is like 90% if not higher.

I do think there are costs to preventing exposure to the usual mild diseases.  It may be worth it in the short run, but in normal times, I wouldn't recommend masking well children except in particularly high risk situations.

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I don't imagine I (or my kids) will be masking all the time or even seasonally post covid (or post pandemic. I don't know that post covid will ever happen), but I can see them being useful in a lot of situations....like as a precaution in those "probably just allergies" situations, or on public transportation. Or inside at Disney World. My kids hardly ever get sick, but someone managed to pick up something every time we went to Disney World, and often something pretty nasty. But, yeah, I don't think it's reasonable to expect kids to wear masks all day at school (and, of course, kids should be able to be vaccinated by late fall anyway) in normal times, but I can definitely see it in situations where there's a lot of close contact with people from all different places. Personally, I don't mind my kids picking up colds every now and then, but I'd much rather avoid the latest imported stomach bug at Disney World and that kind of thing. 

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2 hours ago, Penelope said:

I think it wasn’t introduced very much due to lack of travel. It never broke out in the Southern Hemisphere last summer, either. And everyone there wasn’t masking everywhere. It could have been a fairly light flu year even without Covid, since we have those every so often. 

Have you seen the charts though? This was way beyond a light flu year. There were just enough cases to show there was a tiny amount circulating, but it was a flat line at the bottom of the chart (I will try to insert a flu chart).  There was a single pediatric flu death, compared to the usual ~150-190. I agree we can’t know which elements contributed most to that, but it was obviously something. I do expect lack of travel helped a lot. Especially in Southern Hemisphere countries. The other interesting (but in a bad way) aspect of the almost non existent flu season is to see how flu was so suppressed, but Covid still managed to rage. Demonstrates how much more contagious than flu it is. 

B31E689A-C0E6-41A7-8E05-064DAE4EF727.png

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Well, Maine's Gov just said she's dropping the mask mandate for all. I don't get it. So a week ago people unvaccinated should still mask, and now they don't have to? Wondering what this means for schools and businesses. 

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3 hours ago, Penelope said:

We’ll never know. And there is much that isn’t known about influenza. This just came out, showing that about half of flu infections are asymptomatic, and that asymptomatic infected people can transmit to others. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214109X21001418

Good advertisement for the flu shot. 😉 

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

I don’t. Only to the extent that someone who feels like they might be coming down with something, or thinks they might have flu, feels comfortable wearing a mask if they have to go out.

What would be cool is if they reduced not infection, but viral load of an infection, so that we could develop some immunity without getting sick. 

It would be cool if we could get to a point where people mask when they don't feel well, or they mask proactively, say, it's near a major holiday, and they mask to avoid catching something that they'll pass along to family. 

I think it would also be nice for it to be seen as not unusual to mask. Those who want to mask even more often are free to do so. 

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32 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Well, Maine's Gov just said she's dropping the mask mandate for all. I don't get it. So a week ago people unvaccinated should still mask, and now they don't have to? Wondering what this means for schools and businesses. 

Our governor completely dropped the mask mandate last Friday. But from what I can tell the vast majority of people are still masking inside businesses.

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10 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Our governor completely dropped the mask mandate last Friday. But from what I can tell the vast majority of people are still masking inside businesses.

I just went shopping up in 'live free or die' NH yesterday, where I think the mask mandate has been largely dropped, although I'm not sure if it's still in effect for the city of Nashua, where they've been generally more strict.  Anyway, happy to see not a single unmasked person, not even outside in the Home Depot garden center...

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28 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I just went shopping up in 'live free or die' NH yesterday, where I think the mask mandate has been largely dropped, although I'm not sure if it's still in effect for the city of Nashua, where they've been generally more strict.  Anyway, happy to see not a single unmasked person, not even outside in the Home Depot garden center...

I'm noticing that here, too. The mask mandate is now up to individual stores to manage, but most businesses still have their signs up and people are still largely masked. I'm relieved.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Have you seen the charts though? This was way beyond a light flu year. There were just enough cases to show there was a tiny amount circulating, but it was a flat line at the bottom of the chart (I will try to insert a flu chart).  There was a single pediatric flu death, compared to the usual ~150-190. I agree we can’t know which elements contributed most to that, but it was obviously something. I do expect lack of travel helped a lot. Especially in Southern Hemisphere countries. The other interesting (but in a bad way) aspect of the almost non existent flu season is to see how flu was so suppressed, but Covid still managed to rage. Demonstrates how much more contagious than flu it is. 

B31E689A-C0E6-41A7-8E05-064DAE4EF727.png

Yes.  Canada has had 68 lab confirmed flu this season for the whole country.  Usual annual numbers are approx 50,000.  That's a nearly thousand-fold decrease.  Three orders of magnitude.  And 31 of those 68 cases were associated with viral shedding secondary to live attenuated vaccine (ie Flumist), and hence do not represent community acquired flu:

"To date this season, 68 influenza detections have been reported (Figure 2), which is significantly lower than the past six seasons where an average of 49,641 influenza detections were reported for the season to date. All provinces and territories are closely monitoring indicators of influenza activity this season. Data in the FluWatch report represent surveillance data available at the time of writing, and may change as updates are received.

Thirty-one of the influenza detections reported to date this season are known to be associated with recent live attenuated influenza vaccine (LAIV) receipt and do not represent community circulation of seasonal influenza viruses. LAIV strains are attenuated but can be recovered by nasal swab in children and adults following vaccination with that product (i.e., "shedding")

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1 hour ago, Kanin said:

Well, Maine's Gov just said she's dropping the mask mandate for all. I don't get it. So a week ago people unvaccinated should still mask, and now they don't have to? Wondering what this means for schools and businesses. 

I think schools will have a different set of circumstances and rules heading into fall. I don’t see how we can apply what we see right now to months from now. Things are changing much too fast and data is constantly being updated. 

41 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I just went shopping up in 'live free or die' NH yesterday, where I think the mask mandate has been largely dropped, although I'm not sure if it's still in effect for the city of Nashua, where they've been generally more strict.  Anyway, happy to see not a single unmasked person, not even outside in the Home Depot garden center...

This is why I liked that the CDC is empowering people to decide for themselves and I didn’t believe there are nearly as many liars as people think. 

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5 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I had the same sort of thing-hives for several days following the vaccine dose. But, I have hashimoto's, and I'm one of the lucky people who gets hives as a result when my immune system is upset at all. So, while I reported them to VaxSafe, mentally I'm considering that a side effect of Hashimoto's, not necessarily the vaccine. Because yeah, that's a logical reason for my immune system to be upset, but I'm getting the same symptoms now, and it's probably because we have L's grad party tomorrow!!

Right, and correlation is not the same as causation.

I broke out into hives a few days before my first vaccine. I did so because it's peak pollen season here, and I've been off my immunosuppressants since the beginning of April in prep for the vaccine. I also had a flare in the hours before that first dose.  Right, there's no causation as no dose had been administered. But those symptoms could have just as easily started a couple of days later and I would have thought causation if I wasn't particularly attuned to this issue. 

Same deal round 2. The night of my second dose I ran a low grade fever and I felt a bit achey.  This is exactly how I feel during a flare. I have no idea if one triggered the other or if both just happened to happen side by side. 

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5 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

I am really hoping all these young kids keep the habits of hand sanitation intact. And that schools keep stocking soap and paper towels in supply. Seriously, that has been one of the major changes in the pandemic-we actually have soap, so the kids CAN wash their hands!!

Same.  The elementary was always out.  The hand sanitizer stand outside of the cafeteria was present year round, but I NEVER saw sanitizer in it prior to covid despite checking several times a week. One of the things that has come out of covid is that everyone is sanitizing hands upon entering the building (don't think that will continue in the fall) and they bought several hand washing stations (I do hope that will continue). The current building design cannot accommodate kids washing their hands before eating or after return from recess without those additional stations.

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It's the end of the week here.  AFAIK, we went from fully masking everywhere indoors at the beginning of the week to only needing to mask in schools, at healthcare offices, Home Depot, and at one grocery store chain.  Everyone here is largely unmasked. I'm super interested to see what happens with new infection rates this month. I think they will continue to decline as the weather is lovely and people are out a lot and we have had some decent vaccination numbers.....but I'm not too sure of my prediction. 

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Posted (edited)

Wonder if this the sort of reaction the CDC was hoping for:

Quote

Nearly 100 people refused to wear face masks as required or leave the Thursday night meeting of the Gwinnett County Board of Education, shouting and arguing until board members left and convened the meeting in another room.

https://www.ajc.com/news/anti-mask-crowd-disrupts-gwinnett-school-board-meeting/IYO7R6GHJ5DTLEFCQHER7V3GBA/

nice work, folks:

Quote

As the crowd shouted and argued with each other, many foreign language students who were waiting to be recognized for their achievements left with their families.

 

Edited by kokotg
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2 hours ago, kokotg said:

I don't imagine I (or my kids) will be masking all the time or even seasonally post covid (or post pandemic. I don't know that post covid will ever happen), but I can see them being useful in a lot of situations....like as a precaution in those "probably just allergies" situations, or on public transportation. Or inside at Disney World. My kids hardly ever get sick, but someone managed to pick up something every time we went to Disney World, and often something pretty nasty. But, yeah, I don't think it's reasonable to expect kids to wear masks all day at school (and, of course, kids should be able to be vaccinated by late fall anyway) in normal times, but I can definitely see it in situations where there's a lot of close contact with people from all different places. Personally, I don't mind my kids picking up colds every now and then, but I'd much rather avoid the latest imported stomach bug at Disney World and that kind of thing. 

Just a jumping off point for my musing…I don’t want or plan to mask all of the time, or want others to. I’d love it if masking could become the normal thing for someone to do when they are out and sick.  

Little Johnny threw up last night but you all just had to come to church today? Mask.  

You’ve been sick but want to try to come to co-op anyway and plan to just leave early if you start to feel bad? Mask.

 Running into the store to get meds for your cold because you’re the mama and no one else can go.  Mask. 

Also at the doctor.  How many times have I taken a kid to the doctor for something mild and everyone gets the flu?  Can we also keep up waiting in our car instead of germy waiting rooms? I ❤️ that.  

I could also see masking myself when I have something is coming up that I’d rather not miss due to illness, like a trip, or before a friend or family members birth if I want to see the baby, or on an airplane or other known vector for disease. 

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1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I'm noticing that here, too. The mask mandate is now up to individual stores to manage, but most businesses still have their signs up and people are still largely masked. I'm relieved.

I think we still have a mandate for a couple of weeks. Stores have signs up, and the people that were masking before are still masking. It really does depend on the store--our local Lowe's clientele has always had fairly poor mask compliance for some reason, and it still does. Other stores have had a higher number of maskers than I expected given what it was like before we had a mandate.

1 hour ago, Plum said:

This is why I liked that the CDC is empowering people to decide for themselves and I didn’t believe there are nearly as many liars as people think. 

I do think we'll have changing circumstances that can't be predicted, but masking here was super poor until it was mandated. Our governor literally told people that he was expecting us all to rise to the occasion because we're good people, etc. Didn't happen. He reluctantly finally mandated it, and the honest folks masked up. Until we had a sustained surge where people were dying and the hospitals were sometimes just a bed or two from all out chaos, the holdouts would not mask, and it was a pretty darn large group. There were some that never did mask, and there are lots of people that deny their noses are part of their respiratory tract. Some schools even had poor compliance.

I am not sure what will happen the day our mandate expires. 

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6 hours ago, kokotg said:

So many kids were in school, though--I think it was 50% by winter. That would explain a big reduction in flu, but not it being almost non-existent. Most of the kids who were in school were wearing masks, though. I suspect people being more likely to stay home when they were sick this year had something to do with it, too. It would be interesting to see numbers on whether flu was more prevalent in areas where kids were in school and also to see if mask mandates (in schools, especially, but elsewhere, too) correlated with local flu numbers. 

I do think it's enough to explain it being almost non-existent.  Flu is like covid, it only gains a foothold if, on average, each person who has it infects more than one other person.  In typical years, the R0 for flu (the number of people the average person with the flu infects) is between 1 and 2.  So, if we halved that number, by having the number of people the average person is exposed to, then the number will be below 1, and cases will drop steadily, or never really start.  

 

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1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 Everyone here is largely unmasked. I'm super interested to see what happens with new infection rates this month. I think they will continue to decline as the weather is lovely and people are out a lot and we have had some decent vaccination numbers.....but I'm not too sure of my prediction. 

I saw an interesting article in the Washington Post today breaking out the case numbers across the country to show what they actually are as a portion of the unvaccinated population in each area. What it showed, is that the risk level to unvaccinated people is still the same as it was during the January surge in many places across the country right now. It's much lower for the vaccinated, but unvaccinated people might be getting a false sense of security by looking at the case numbers averaged over the whole population, but it's a much different story when looking at them as a proportion of unvaccinated people. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2021/covid-rates-unvaccinated-people/

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I saw an interesting article in the Washington Post today breaking out the case numbers across the country to show what they actually are as a portion of the unvaccinated population in each area. What it showed, is that the risk level to unvaccinated people is still the same as it was during the January surge in many places across the country right now. It's much lower for the vaccinated, but unvaccinated people might be getting a false sense of security by looking at the case numbers averaged over the whole population, but it's a much different story when looking at them as a proportion of unvaccinated people. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/interactive/2021/covid-rates-unvaccinated-people/

This is true here. When I look at case incidence numbers, we look like February. We had a huge jump a month ago, coincidentally when schools opened for in person learning. When you look at variant genotyping of the cases here, it’s not surprising why we also see increased transmissibility. I also see a ton of people who don’t know if they have allergies or covid and aren’t getting tested. So??? The good news is that deaths are down. Hospitalizations spiked a month ago, but are trending back down, slowly.

ETA: it’s this on the scenes data plus the dropping of the mask mandate that has me keeping my young kid at home. With her asthma, she doesn’t even handle a basic cold well. I hate the “all young kids are fine” rhetoric I hear. I do see kids getting severe cold level sick and needing nebulizer treatment. They just aren’t being hospitalized, so it’s considered minor. 

Edited by prairiewindmomma
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Interestingly enough since most stores here have now dropped the mask requirement, I’m seeing more people wear masks. 🤷‍♀️ Yesterday and today I have been shocked that so many were wearing masks when I was out. These are the same stores that just a week ago had few masked people. 

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20 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Interestingly enough since most stores here have now dropped the mask requirement, I’m seeing more people wear masks. 🤷‍♀️ Yesterday and today I have been shocked that so many were wearing masks when I was out. These are the same stores that just a week ago had few masked people. 

That is interesting. All I can think is maybe it’s unvaccinated people wanting to protect themselves from all the vaccine supposedly floating through the air 🤷‍♀️😂

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, KSera said:

That is interesting. All I can think is maybe it’s unvaccinated people wanting to protect themselves from all the vaccine supposedly floating through the air 🤷‍♀️😂

I went to Wal-Mart this morning.  The signs outside still said masks required, but there isn't a local mandate in effect and corporate said they're not requiring them from vaccinated people.  Probably 90% were still masked, but I just can't figure out why so many people had them under their chins or noses.  If you don't want to wear it and nobody is checking your vax card, why not take the dang thing off instead of pretending?  They just look so amazingly dumb.

Edited by Syllieann
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1 hour ago, Joker2 said:

Interestingly enough since most stores here have now dropped the mask requirement, I’m seeing more people wear masks. 🤷‍♀️ Yesterday and today I have been shocked that so many were wearing masks when I was out. These are the same stores that just a week ago had few masked people. 

I think in some cases, that's happening here as well. I wonder if it's because it's optional, so it is no longer a political statement to go maskless. Or, possibly, now that I'm expecting to see more maskless people, I'm noticing those that are masked more, while previously everyone was supposed to be masked, so I really keyed in on those without them. 

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I would love to still see intermittent masking. Personally, when we have travel coming up I am always so paranoid one of my children will get sick and it will spoil the vacation. It would be great to have them mask in crowded situations for a week ahead of time. 

Also we live in the land of "it's just allergies," which is almost certainly only true half the time. It'd be nice if those folks (including my DD) masked when out.

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6 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

I would love to still see intermittent masking. Personally, when we have travel coming up I am always so paranoid one of my children will get sick and it will spoil the vacation. It would be great to have them mask in crowded situations for a week ahead of time. 

Also we live in the land of "it's just allergies," which is almost certainly only true half the time. It'd be nice if those folks (including my DD) masked when out.

And, honestly, masking has helped my allergies more than practically anything else. If I don't wear a mask outside because I'm not going to be near anyone else, it definitely makes a major difference in my symptoms, especially when the trees are trying frantically to reproduce.  

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I'm on a facebook group for moms in our town, and someone posted a question today asking if kids too young to be vaccinated were required to mask when out in public indoors, and everyone was saying, "Nobody knows/ It's confusing/ You go by what the store's signs say."  Some of the people saying that there was no way to know if kids had to mask were people who I know are very pro mask and pro vaccination, so I kind of am wondering if the information is genuinely confusing?  

I posted that the CDC was very clear that everyone who is unvaccinated, including young children, needed to mask in public indoors, and that I would mask in solidarity with the kids.  But the amount of confusion even from people who are in favor of masks really concerns me.  

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