s/o Duggar - Christian deception, Coronavirus, dominionism, insurrection, etc

[MercyA]

7 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I may also have misunderstood.  Looking through it now reminds me that that book is so far over my head…

It's all good! This is such an interesting discussion!

[Katy]

9 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

How would you explain the Satan conundrum?

The same way we explain humans.  Free will. God wants us to love God, but you can’t love if you have no choice but to love.

 

[Katy]

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been thinking about this and I don't think I agree. Most people are not subject to religious abuse. I think there are many reasons why people have abandoned their faith. I'm not sure what the #1 reason is but I suspect that modern life plays a huge part. Our culture has changed to one where spiritual issues don't matter as much as they did before. Look at the Middle Ages when people argued about free will and how many angels on the pin of a needle. I think their worldview is almost incomprehensible to a modern person even if you're a believer. 

I think that religion doesn't matter that much to people today. 

I visited Montreal about 20 years ago to see a friend. My friend told me that before the late 1960s, French Canadians were the most religious people in the world. Now they are some of the most secular people on Earth. At some point during the 1960s, people stopped attending Mass. There have been a series of scandals the have been revealed in the last few decades but they weren't known at the time. People began to care about other things besides religion. My friend explained that Catholicism used to be the defining thing for French Canadians but in the 1960s, a movement arose to focus on keeping the French language. Their language became their identity more than being the strictest Catholics in the world. I know that I'm simplifying something that is more complicated than this and I'm no expert on French Canadian history. 

 

Maybe. But populations are different than individuals with sincere belief of their own.  When I ask people who were devout why they stopped believing, 100% of people who used to be truly devout out of personal conviction who left Christianity had a terrible story about how the church treated them, someone they loved, or how they cannot reconcile Calvinism with a loving God because the logical ends are abusive. 

So french Canadians affected by scandals take their kids less, and a whole generation has less chance to become devout. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

How does that square with omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence in your view? Are you with @MercyAthat God didn't know Lucifer would be evil when he created him?

I believe that God knew and even planned for salvation beforehand. (I can’t remember the verse that I base this off of , off hand). 
 

I believe that God did not want to create puppets. Thus free will. 
 

I believe that God’s love is not cancelled out by His holiness and His holiness isn’t cancelled by love . None of His attributes oppose each other or cancel each other out. 

[MercyA]

13 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That has always been my stumbling block. Nobody has ever been able to explain to me how God can be both benevolent and omnipotent in choosing to let innocents suffer. 

Not trying to convince you of anything, but I think it depends partly on what you mean by "omnipotent." God has great power, yes, but I don't think He chooses to do things outside His character (like robbing people of their free will). 

And I don't see Him being all benevolent in Scripture. I just don't. Lovingkindness and mercy are part of His character, but not all of His character. 

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not trying to convince you of anything, but I think it depends partly on what you mean by "omnipotent." God has great power, yes, but I don't think He chooses to do things outside His character (like robbing people of their free will). 

And I don't see Him being all benevolent in Scripture. I just don't. Lovingkindness and mercy are part of His character, but not all of His character. 

You are right, scripture certainly does not show a benevolent God. 

With omnipotent, I mean that God has the power to save a person from horrible suffering inflicted upon them (extreme example, save his chosen people from the Holocaust. That would not be robbing them of free will)

If God chooses not to do this, for reasons that surpass human understanding, I feel that praying for anything other than spiritual peace and acceptance seems frivolous, bordering on blasphemy.  People pray for job offers, for dogs not to die, for college admissions.... why would He care about any of these trivialities? 

ETA: Thanks for being kind. I have wrestled with this question since I was a teenager, and ultimately that was one of two reasons why I can no longer be a Christian.

Edited May 17, 2021 by regentrude

[MercyA]

13 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been thinking about this and I don't think I agree. Most people are not subject to religious abuse. I think there are many reasons why people have abandoned their faith. I'm not sure what the #1 reason is but I suspect that modern life plays a huge part. Our culture has changed to one where spiritual issues don't matter as much as they did before.

I agree. Just off the top of my head, I think:

1. The relative hiddenness of death in our culture plays a part. We don't see death as much first hand and we don't have to handle it ourselves--washing the body, preparing and carrying it for burial, etc.

2. The rejection of science by many conservative Christians plays a part. When kids to get to college and find out that, actually, Mom and Dad were way off base on genetics, the fossil record, etc., I imagine it can really shake their faith.

3. "Easy believe-ism" plays a part. When churches teach that you can just say "the sinner's prayer" and then just keep living life exactly the same way you did before, without repentance or holiness, the church can start to look awfully hypocritical. 

4. All of the distractions of the modern world likely play a part. There is something else to fill our minds every minute of the day, if we want it.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Not trying to be argumentative here...

How many people do you think have a sincere religious belief? In the past, I think many people attended church because it was expected, not because they had a sincere belief. 

I've known plenty of people who have drifted in and out of religion and I think many people change their minds. Religion was their hobby and now they're interested in something else. They were very sincere believers but now they're into something else. 

Look at Mass attendance amongst American Catholics. American Catholics stopped attending Mass long before the scandals hit. 

I think how it happens is that you miss one Sunday and it's not a big deal and then you miss another Sunday and then another Sunday and before long, you're not a regular churchgoer anymore and you didn't hit by lightning. So maybe it wasn't that big of a deal after all? 

I think you're less likely to go down this path if you feel very close to the people you attend church with. They didn't ignore you at coffee hour or the preacher didn't say something terrible during the sermon. 

More than half a dozen people who have been in tears when discussing with me the terrible way they were treated by the church.  I absolutely believe they had sincere belief before they were traumatized by the church.

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I agree. Just off the top of my head, I think:

1. The relative hiddenness of death in our culture plays a part. We don't see death as much first hand and we don't have to handle it ourselves--washing the body, preparing and carrying it for burial, etc.

2. The rejection of science by many conservative Christians plays a part. When kids to get to college and find out that, actually, Mom and Dad were way off base on genetics, the fossil record, etc., I imagine it can really shake their faith.

3. "Easy believe-ism" plays a part. When churches teach that you can just say "the sinner's prayer" and then just keep living life exactly the same way you did before, without repentance or holiness, the church can start to look awfully hypocritical. 

4. All of the distractions of the modern world likely play a part. There is something else to fill our minds every minute of the day, if we want it.

I would like to add to the list:

5. In a global world with easy access to information, other spiritual paths are accessible. People can be spiritual and not Christian. 

6. The hypocrisy and un-Christian spirit in organized religion. When I moved here, I was searching for a church, and the intolerance and misogyny and extreme pushiness I encountered poisoned organized religion for me. I cannot in good conscience associate myself with the institution, and I know many ex-Christians who feel similarly. Too little Christ in there. Too much hate, bigotry and self-righteousness.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by regentrude

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

You are right, scripture certainly does not show a benevolent God. 

With omnipotent, I mean that God has the power to save a person from horrible suffering inflicted upon them (extreme example, save his chosen people from the Holocaust. That would not be robbing them of free will)

If God chooses not to do this, for reasons that surpass human understanding, I feel that praying for anything other than spiritual peace and acceptance seems frivolous, bordering on blasphemy.  People pray for job offers, for dogs not to die, for college admissions.... why would He care about any of these trivialities? 

Certainly fair questions. I think God is Who He is, and we can choose to follow Him or not for these or any other reasons. 

It has been my experience that sometimes He aids me with trivial things, and sometimes with big things, and sometimes He does not. That is up to Him. 

For me, it comes down to what the apostle Peter expressed in this passage:

After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. So Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.” (John 6)

I've believed in and come to know Him and I can't--and wouldn't wish to--unbelieve.

[MercyA]

7 minutes ago, regentrude said:

6. The hypocrisy and un-Christian spirit in organized religion. When I moved here, I was searching for a church, and the intolerance and misogyny and extreme pushiness I encountered poisoned organized religion for me. I cannot in good conscience associate myself with the institution, and I know many ex-Christians who feel similarly. Too little Christ in there. Too much hate, bigotry and self-righteousness.

My mother and my sister are both believers in Christ, but after the last several years, refuse to call themselves evangelicals ever again. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

It has been my experience that sometimes He aids me with trivial things, and sometimes with big things, and sometimes He does not. That is up to Him. 

I want to preface this (because I know tone does not translate well to online): I am asking with genuine curiosity, not with argumentative snark:

how, if aid is so arbitrarily given or withheld, do you know this is God's aid and not simply random chance?

I have often wishes I could still believe in God. But alas, I can't.

[MercyA]

18 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I want to preface this (because I know tone does not translate well to online): I am asking with genuine curiosity, not with argumentative snark:

how, if aid is so arbitrarily given or withheld, do you know this is God's aid and not simply random chance?

I have often wished I could still believe in God. But alas, I can't.

No offense taken! I have not found God's aid to be arbitrary. I have found it to be consistent, kind, and, at times, so miraculous as to defy chance. These things are very personal to me and I would rather not share them here at this time. Suffice to say that coming to faith was not easy for me and answered prayer helped tremendously.

Yet, I know other believers who have had severe struggles, disappointments and setbacks in life and have not received the answers to prayers for which they hoped. I admire them greatly and hope that I would not abandon my faith if I were faced with similar trials.

I think that God always does bring help of some kind, even if it is just peace and strength.

I do not doubt your sincerity or your experiences or your assessment of your ability to continue to believe in God. But, FWIW, I would encourage you not to shut that door completely. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by MercyA

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I think that God always does bring help of some kind, even if it just peace and strength.

I wish I could believe that, too. But there are Christians who commit suicide - even though they  have a much higher barrier for it than atheists because it is a sin. It feels callous to say they simply didn't pray hard enough. 

I, as a non-believer, see prayer as a way to connect with the holy spirit within ourselves. Which explains the peace and strength and clarity. But sometimes, that is not enough to save a person. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by regentrude

[MercyA]

20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I wish I could believe that, too. But there are Christians who commit suicide - even though they  have a much higher barrier for it than atheists because it is a sin. It feels callous to say they simply didn't pray hard enough. 

I, as a non-believer, see prayer as a way to connect with the holy spirit within ourselves. Which explains the peace and strength and clarity. But sometimes, that is not enough to save a person. 

I would never say that a Christian who committed suicide didn't pray hard enough, nor would I say that God would not have mercy on their soul. That would be very callous indeed. 

I think when it comes to suicide mental illness very often plays a role, and mental illness is something the Church doesn't seem to have a good handle on yet, unfortunately. 😞 

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that people who leave never had sincere beliefs. But I think that many people who attended church did not have sincere beliefs. 

I also believe that people change their minds and have sincere beliefs at one time but then change their minds. 

I think there was a cultural expectation that everyone attend church that is now gone unless you’re in a small town.  You can be a nonbeliever and still be a good person, whereas that wasn’t considered true anywhere maybe 70 years ago.   That accounts for some people leaving. 

Certainly there are still nonbelievers in church.  Someone who was an elder (but had a lot of money and leadership skills) confessed to our small group that he wasn’t a believer at all. He has more of all-religions-lead-to-God belief.  But he was in the military when he was young, and going to church meant extra time off in basic, and his wife thought raising kids in church encouraged good values, so they came. Their social lives revolved around church.  They moved frequently for work so they’d choose a large church with a decent youth group and a pastor they liked, make friends through a small group…. We were never close enough to really consider them friends, but I’m sure many people are the same.

I meant people who really had their own faith, and who lost it.

[Faith-manor]

2 hours ago, chiguirre said:

How do you get around God creating Satan? If he created Satan, he created evil. If he didn't, Zoroaster was right.

So we end up right back at the logical problem of evil. How do we explain evil if there is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent creator?

It solves itself if god is not omnipotent or omni benevolent, and especially for the benevolence part, it would make sense. One cannot say god is loving if he is omnipotent and has the ability to create whatever world he chooses to design, and then makes one in which the choice of two single individuals condemns everyone for all time to eternal damnation from the moment the soul enters the body by no choice at all of that person to choose to be born or not and then hope against hope the bible is translated into your language and you have enough education to understand it or some person shows up to explain it to you and then you manage to hang on until death despite all the inconsistencies of that bible.

If god created all things, then god is the creator of evil because it did not exist until he created the conditions for it to exist and the idea of it. Otherwise god did not create all things. Isaiah 45:7 suggest that he did create evil. Or another option is that god is one of two or more deities and one of them did it. Or....many other things that aren't generally acceptable in Abrahamic faiths. 

Mercy, I too am very happy at how this has gone. Being on the done/none side, I normally received absolute rabid vitriol if I try to discuss religious beliefs with others. I think maybe the fact that I am deconverted is just profoundly offensive to them and I am viewed with horrible suspicion. So this is just really refreshing. And to be fair, several years ago when I admitted where I was at on this board, you lead the pack with love, compassion, grace, and friendship. That discussion was pages long, and it went very well. Krgtok and others were just wonderful. I so appreciate that!!!!!

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

No offense taken! I have not found God's aid to be arbitrary. I have found it to be consistent, kind, and, at times, so miraculous as to defy chance. These things are very personal to me and I would rather not share them here at this time. Suffice to say that coming to faith was not easy for me and answered prayer helped tremendously.

Yet, I know other believers who have had severe struggles, disappointments and setbacks in life and have not received the answers to prayers for which they hoped. I admire them greatly and hope that I would not abandon my faith if I were faced with similar trials.

I think that God always does bring help of some kind, even if it is just peace and strength.

I do not doubt your sincerity or your experiences or your assessment of your ability to continue to believe in God. But, FWIW, I would encourage you not to shut that door completely. 

I think it's ok to shut the door. It isn't an action that denies future possibilities. Otherwise I would not be a former Catholic turned hardline atheist turned agnostic turned bather in the ineffable.

Slamming the door shut for a good 15 years was absolutely just part of a spiritual journey. If it had stayed shut, that would have been how it needed to be. Life, the mystery, hey. (When I was an atheist, I really didn't like being told to keep the door open. Clearly, I was an atheist because it was shut already! And not by me!)

[J-rap]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

Yes, I agree. I was just pointing out that this discussion is a very old one. 😉 I am not strictly Calvinist or Armenian. 

Got it!  👍🏼

[MercyA]

Thank you so much, @Faith-manor. That means a lot to me. ❤️

[Pam in CT]

re dormancy as part of a long spiritual journey

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

I think it's ok to shut the door. It isn't an action that denies future possibilities. Otherwise I would not be a former Catholic turned hardline atheist turned agnostic turned bather in the ineffable.

Slamming the door shut for a good 15 years was absolutely just part of a spiritual journey. If it had stayed shut, that would have been how it needed to be. Life, the mystery, hey. (When I was an atheist, I really didn't like being told to keep the door open. Clearly, I was an atheist because it was shut already! And not by me!)

I went dormant too, from early adolescence through mid-thirties.

Love, love, love "bather in the ineffable." 

 

Re reconciling divine omnipotence with (human generated) "evil" as well as other forms of suffering and misery (cancer, tsunamis, earthquakes, babies born with painful disorders, COVID) that are not caused by human action - there is a teaching in mystical Judaism ("tzimtsum") that I find very beautiful:

Before the Beginning we know from Genesis 1 and again with variations in Genesis 2, God was infinite -- took up all the space and all the time and all the energy and all the matter. There was no *space* for anything but God. So before creation of the universe could occur, God had to "contract," draw in, pull back... to make room for creation.  And God has been holding back ever since.

The idea of the Divine holding back, not exercising power, remaining hidden -- there are similarities between this and "free will," but they are not quite the same.

[BlsdMama]

4 hours ago, regentrude said:

I wish I could believe that, too. But there are Christians who commit suicide - even though they  have a much higher barrier for it than atheists because it is a sin. It feels callous to say they simply didn't pray hard enough. 

I, as a non-believer, see prayer as a way to connect with the holy spirit within ourselves. Which explains the peace and strength and clarity. But sometimes, that is not enough to save a person. 

I am curious, regentrude, if you don’t mind my genuinely asking - atheist or agnostic? Your use of the term Holly spirit within leads me to believe you think humans have a soul that is spiritual and sacred in origin, this the result of creation rather than random existence?

 It wold be callous to say those who are desolate or without comfort died from weak prayer - my translation of what you understood it to be? I wold say that or hope never spins on our own actions or abilities to save self. There are those, Christian and not, who come to the end of themselves. I will speak of myself alone - I truly do not want to die an ALS death. And I am largely without hope of a reprieve from such a death. Oregon allows for self injection, but you must be able to push the plunger yourself - meaning a limb wold have to work well enough to do so. Carried further, it would have to happen before end stages. It sounds cold and calculated doesn’t it? And yet I’d be lying if I said there weren’t days that I hadn’t mapped it out and considered it. ALS forces you to come brutally close to pain, fear, and death. And yet, to choose it, I’d have to admit some things:

Things will always be the same or worse, either God will not help, cannot help this, or that my life has no purpose and nothing more that is good can be gained through this trial. This is suicide. I got a close look at a family, large and homeschooled, whose mama ended her own life. Her children are loving, caring, funny, engaged, beautiful... I’ve read some of her writing. Her faith in God was truly lived in her life. It is blatantly obvious that she loved the Lord. Her family spoke of her depression struggles. Did she just not pay enough? No. I don’t buy that. I’ve thought about this so so much. She came to the end of herself to continue the battle and had to have come to the decision her family was better without her than with her? I believe she believed a falsehood - spiritual warfare, if you will. But I understand that battle and the wrong conclusion. 

[BlsdMama]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 

Mercy, I too am very happy at how this has gone. Being on the done/none side, I normally received absolute rabid vitriol if I try to discuss religious beliefs with others. I think maybe the fact that I am deconverted is just profoundly offensive to them and I am viewed with horrible suspicion. So this is just really refreshing. And to be fair, several years ago when I admitted where I was at on this board, you lead the pack with love, compassion, grace, and friendship. That discussion was pages long, and it went very well. Krgtok and others were just wonderful. I so appreciate that!!!!!

❤️ 

[BlsdMama]

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think there's a spectrum of belief. There's a lot in between strong belief and a non-believer. I think there are also people who are believers who don't attend church because they don't see a need to attend church. 

But I think some people change their minds. They change and what was important to them is not important anymore. 

To me, this is the Parable of the Sower in a nutshell. 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I am curious, regentrude, if you don’t mind my genuinely asking - atheist or agnostic? Your use of the term Holly spirit within leads me to believe you think humans have a soul that is spiritual and sacred in origin, this the result of creation rather than random existence?

 It wold be callous to say those who are desolate or without comfort died from weak prayer - my translation of what you understood it to be? I wold say that or hope never spins on our own actions or abilities to save self. There are those, Christian and not, who come to the end of themselves. I will speak of myself alone - I truly do not want to die an ALS death. And I am largely without hope of a reprieve from such a death. Oregon allows for self injection, but you must be able to push the plunger yourself - meaning a limb wold have to work well enough to do so. Carried further, it would have to happen before end stages. It sounds cold and calculated doesn’t it? And yet I’d be lying if I said there weren’t days that I hadn’t mapped it out and considered it. ALS forces you to come brutally close to pain, fear, and death. And yet, to choose it, I’d have to admit some things:

Things will always be the same or worse, either God will not help, cannot help this, or that my life has no purpose and nothing more that is good can be gained through this trial. This is suicide. I got a close look at a family, large and homeschooled, whose mama ended her own life. Her children are loving, caring, funny, engaged, beautiful... I’ve read some of her writing. Her faith in God was truly lived in her life. It is blatantly obvious that she loved the Lord. Her family spoke of her depression struggles. Did she just not pay enough? No. I don’t buy that. I’ve thought about this so so much. She came to the end of herself to continue the battle and had to have come to the decision her family was better without her than with her? I believe she believed a falsehood - spiritual warfare, if you will. But I understand that battle and the wrong conclusion. 

I am an atheist: I do not believe in God or any deity or higher being, and I do not believe in intentional creation. I do not believe that humans have a soul that singles them out from all other living things.
I believe in a Spirit that is within all things of nature and that connects everything; tapping into this spirit gives a sense of belonging in this world. Some days I can sense this, usually when I am in the woods or on a mountain. At other times, I can't.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about your illness and suicide. No, that does not sound cold and calculated - it sounds deeply rational and makes perfect sense to me. I wish that your faith sustains you, and I think of you with love and compassion. This is one example why I cannot believe in a God, because I would conclude he had to be either impotent or cruel. 

As for your friend, I do not think a person who takes their own life necessarily believes their family is better off without them. They may simply no longer be able to go on. The thought of  loved ones can, for some, be a deterrent - and at the same time, they can feel deeply resentful that this robs them of the choice to take their life. 

I like your expression "spiritual warfare". For me, depression manifested in the inability to connect with the spirit and tap into this feeling of belonging, which led to a profound sense of alienation from life, and of futility and meaninglessness. For me, it was a spiritual crisis that felt larger than a mere chemical imbalance. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by regentrude

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, it's been a nice conservation. I keep expecting to be told that I'm an idiot or a heretic which is usually how these discussions go. 

 

Or just not well catechized 🙂  Can't forget that one. 

[BlsdMama]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am an atheist: I do not believe in God or any deity or higher being, and I do not believe in intentional creation. I do not believe that humans have a soul that singles them out from all other living things.
I believe in a Spirit that is within all things of nature and that connects everything; tapping into this spirit gives a sense of belonging in this world. Some days I can sense this, usually when I am in the woods or on a mountain. At other times, I can't.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about your illness and suicide. No, that does not sound cold and calculated - it sounds deeply rational and makes perfect sense to me. I wish that your faith sustains you, and I think of you with love and compassion. This is one example why I cannot believe in a God, because I would conclude he had to be either impotent or cruel. 

As for your friend, I do not think a person who takes their own life necessarily believes their family is better off without them. They may simply no longer be able to go on. The thought of  loved ones can, for some, be a deterrent - and at the same time, they can feel deeply resentful that this robs them of the choice to take their life. 

I like your expression "spiritual warfare". For me, depression manifested in the inability to connect with the spirit and tap into this feeling of belonging, which led to a profound sense of alienation from life, and of futility and meaninglessness. For me, it was a spiritual crisis that felt larger than a mere chemical imbalance. 

I'm going to risk bordering on odd & creepy for a minute, lol. 😉 Regentrude, your "voice" on this board is one that I pay special attention to when you write because you write with regard and thoughtfulness.  I had a dear friend in OR whose voice so reminds me of you, I sometimes wonder if she has decided to visit the boards, lol.  She is also an atheist and probably one of the women I have loved most in this world.  I miss her desperately some days because an email, or even a real letter, is a poor replacement for her company and hot tea.  I loved hearing her think out loud because she challenged me the most as a believer.  We were very honest with one another with what we could and could not answer and because of that, we were able to speak less guarded than is "generally acceptable" between a believer and a non-believer, because of course, the believer has a compulsion to be winsome and give an answer.  The truth is, the older I get, the more willing I am to accept the mystery that is God.  

I'll think aloud for a moment but I risk making this sound "about me" which I think is disrespectful of the conversation being had, but so much of my maturing faith is closely interlocked with my disease.  I grew up "culturally" Catholic.  I went to church, I went to CCD, I went to Catholic high school.  I had no real relationship that was founded in a relationship with God and a willingness to love and serve as called by a Creator, if that makes sense.  As a young adult (23, mom of two) I came to understand my position with God differently.  I had believed I had been "allowed to exist" but that my existence was separate from what He was doing and He was somewhat removed from us, although within "hearing distance" if He was so inclined, essentially, but not that I had an obligation to serve nor that my life might have been purposeful or intentional.  What unfolded was a deeper understanding of sin and purpose and resolution, perhaps? I feel as though I'm clumsy with this.  Shortly after, our third child, a little girl, died at 12 days old.  I was alone, in the desert (figuratively and literally) and had a lot of time to study.  My relationship with Him is very removed from corporate worship or from church - because my husband was not a believer (more agnostic for the most part) and for the sake of peace, we agreed to not attend church.  I tend to naturally be a self righteous person - not that I'm haughty exactly, but more that I have a reason for doing/choosing what I do/believe and I wouldn't do it unless I had thought about it, weighed it, and come to a held conclusion - thus I defend it when asked and I had no idea that I was turning people off in my vehemence, I think? I feel as though it was perceived as a self righteous and I feel that I hurt people (mostly my mom) and I deeply regret my immaturity and my inability to understand how I was perceived. 😞 

You know, when I was diagnosed, I was a little excited - get sick, get healed, get a miracle, others would believe, right?  And, as it progressed, I realized something - if God can work ALL things for good for those who believe, and God has chosen to leave my children motherless, then my children being motherless must be good, and how can that be? For goodness sakes, I am not the best mom, but I sure work hard at it, lol.  Some days I am angry.  Some days I am sad.  It would be so dishonest for me to say, "Such is the will of GOD and I willingly accept it." But, it would also be dishonest for me to say that from such a trial, nothing good has come of it.  I feel like this illness and death will be a small thread in a large tapestry, and I am willing to serve in this way, even if this is not at all (EVER) what I would choose for myself.  I am not willing to say that this journey has been all bad.  Humans have a way of living largely unintentionally and believe, quite against all logic, that we are not steadily progressing towards death.  Having a terminal diagnosis is a remarkable way to sharpen that intentionality and figure out the meaning of life and to live purposefully.  

As best as my very limited mind can sort through, really, if you're God, what a little thing is a sickness and a death? It is a very little thing.  C.S. Lewis considered it a door to pass through.  If, as a believer, I know that Heaven awaits me for all of eternity, what a tiny window of time is five years of ALS in comparison.  What a little thing is this momentary suffering in comparison.  In the meantime I have recognized that, like the Jewish people after being rescued from the Egyptians, when things are relatively boring, we pull from God, leaning on our own self-sufficiency, but in time of difficulty, we lean in to Him and grow closer, mature in our spirituality.  I had said once, before my Hannah had died, that if I ever lost a child, I didn't think that I could beleive in God or continue in that belief.  It was a strange thing to experience her death, a very difficult death at that, and then become closer to Him instead.  It flew in the face of reason and I cannot explain it... except that there becomes an understanding in illness and in death that people exist for such a very short period, thus what is the purpose of life? I cannot believe this world is random.  There seems to be too much order to the days, the seasons, the life (other than human) to believe in an unintelligent, random begottenness.  I think that people are largely disordered and meddlesome, but the natural world and how things work within is a thing of beauty, albeit sometimes disrupted.  Struggles, even to the point of pain and death, do bring beauty into a closer perspective in that rather than going about my business, I appreciate it far more than before?

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I'm going to risk bordering on odd & creepy for a minute, lol. 😉 Regentrude, your "voice" on this board is one that I pay special attention to when you write because you write with regard and thoughtfulness.  I had a dear friend in OR whose voice so reminds me of you, I sometimes wonder if she has decided to visit the boards, lol.  She is also an atheist and probably one of the women I have loved most in this world.  I miss her desperately some days because an email, or even a real letter, is a poor replacement for her company and hot tea.  I loved hearing her think out loud because she challenged me the most as a believer.  We were very honest with one another with what we could and could not answer and because of that, we were able to speak less guarded than is "generally acceptable" between a believer and a non-believer, because of course, the believer has a compulsion to be winsome and give an answer.  The truth is, the older I get, the more willing I am to accept the mystery that is God.  

I'll think aloud for a moment but I risk making this sound "about me" which I think is disrespectful of the conversation being had, but so much of my maturing faith is closely interlocked with my disease.  I grew up "culturally" Catholic.  I went to church, I went to CCD, I went to Catholic high school.  I had no real relationship that was founded in a relationship with God and a willingness to love and serve as called by a Creator, if that makes sense.  As a young adult (23, mom of two) I came to understand my position with God differently.  I had believed I had been "allowed to exist" but that my existence was separate from what He was doing and He was somewhat removed from us, although within "hearing distance" if He was so inclined, essentially, but not that I had an obligation to serve nor that my life might have been purposeful or intentional.  What unfolded was a deeper understanding of sin and purpose and resolution, perhaps? I feel as though I'm clumsy with this.  Shortly after, our third child, a little girl, died at 12 days old.  I was alone, in the desert (figuratively and literally) and had a lot of time to study.  My relationship with Him is very removed from corporate worship or from church - because my husband was not a believer (more agnostic for the most part) and for the sake of peace, we agreed to not attend church.  I tend to naturally be a self righteous person - not that I'm haughty exactly, but more that I have a reason for doing/choosing what I do/believe and I wouldn't do it unless I had thought about it, weighed it, and come to a held conclusion - thus I defend it when asked and I had no idea that I was turning people off in my vehemence, I think? I feel as though it was perceived as a self righteous and I feel that I hurt people (mostly my mom) and I deeply regret my immaturity and my inability to understand how I was perceived. 😞 

You know, when I was diagnosed, I was a little excited - get sick, get healed, get a miracle, others would believe, right?  And, as it progressed, I realized something - if God can work ALL things for good for those who believe, and God has chosen to leave my children motherless, then my children being motherless must be good, and how can that be? For goodness sakes, I am not the best mom, but I sure work hard at it, lol.  Some days I am angry.  Some days I am sad.  It would be so dishonest for me to say, "Such is the will of GOD and I willingly accept it." But, it would also be dishonest for me to say that from such a trial, nothing good has come of it.  I feel like this illness and death will be a small thread in a large tapestry, and I am willing to serve in this way, even if this is not at all (EVER) what I would choose for myself.  I am not willing to say that this journey has been all bad.  Humans have a way of living largely unintentionally and believe, quite against all logic, that we are not steadily progressing towards death.  Having a terminal diagnosis is a remarkable way to sharpen that intentionality and figure out the meaning of life and to live purposefully.  

As best as my very limited mind can sort through, really, if you're God, what a little thing is a sickness and a death? It is a very little thing.  C.S. Lewis considered it a door to pass through.  If, as a believer, I know that Heaven awaits me for all of eternity, what a tiny window of time is five years of ALS in comparison.  What a little thing is this momentary suffering in comparison.  In the meantime I have recognized that, like the Jewish people after being rescued from the Egyptians, when things are relatively boring, we pull from God, leaning on our own self-sufficiency, but in time of difficulty, we lean in to Him and grow closer, mature in our spirituality.  I had said once, before my Hannah had died, that if I ever lost a child, I didn't think that I could beleive in God or continue in that belief.  It was a strange thing to experience her death, a very difficult death at that, and then become closer to Him instead.  It flew in the face of reason and I cannot explain it... except that there becomes an understanding in illness and in death that people exist for such a very short period, thus what is the purpose of life? I cannot believe this world is random.  There seems to be too much order to the days, the seasons, the life (other than human) to believe in an unintelligent, random begottenness.  I think that people are largely disordered and meddlesome, but the natural world and how things work within is a thing of beauty, albeit sometimes disrupted.  Struggles, even to the point of pain and death, do bring beauty into a closer perspective in that rather than going about my business, I appreciate it far more than before?

Thank you for this - I identify with the self righteous but really just took a lot of time to come to my position and can defend it thing. 

Also, the rest reminds me a bit of Till We Have Faces by CS Lewis...the idea we just have no real way to conceptualize everything. (I didn't actually LIKE that book...but it was important to me0

[Storygirl]

@BlsdMama Thank you so much for your heartfelt post. I hope that you will print that out and put it with your other writings. I think it is a message that your family would find comforting to turn to again and again, in the years to come.

[Faith-manor]

That was a very thoughtful response, BlsdMama, thank your for taking the time to write it. 

[regentrude]

@BlsdMama thank you for this beautiful response. I need to reread this again and think about it.