s/o Duggar - Christian deception, Coronavirus, dominionism, insurrection, etc

[Faith-manor]

It should be noted that one reason for the growing number of nones is five point Calvinism. I know that will offend someone, but morals have evolved in the younger generation and they are not willing to worship a god who predestin souls to an eternity of torment. Bowing the knee to such an entity is considered repugnant to them.

My own kids consider it pretty revolting, much like John Calvin himself burning a former friend at the stake using green wood to make the torture last longer. 

[Katy]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Thanks for explaining. 

I don't mean to offend anyone but Calvinism sounds so repugnant to me. I see how people thought it up. Every religion tries to make sense of non-believers. But the idea that God creates people knowing that they are predestined to spend eternity in hell makes God a monster, at to my way of thinking about it. 

Are there any Calvinists who believe that they aren't predestined for salvation? To me, predestination sounds like something that people convince themselves of to justify why they think they are going to heaven. If someone believed that they were predestined for hell, wouldn't they be in total despair? Although I guess the logic is that if you do something to prevent hell then that means that you're predestined for heaven? It sounds like rationalization to me. 

But I can see how people who believe that you must accept Jesus as your savior to be saved end up thinking it's predestined. In theory, it's possible for everyone to be saved but what about the 1/2 of pregnancies that end in miscarriage? What about someone born in a place where they will never hear about Jesus? Is God a monster by condemning 1/2 of the human race to hell because they never got the chance to be born and accept Jesus as their savior? 

I once had a conversation with a guy who was attending an Orthodox Christian seminary. He told me that a non-Christian who feels that they are right about their religion is deluded. I asked him about a Jewish person who sincerely believed that Judaism was correct and this guy said that the Jewish person was lying to himself. That God was trying to convert the Jewish person to Orthodox Christianity but he was rejecting it. I thought that was absolutely crazy. Again, this is how religions try to deal with non-believers. They're predestined to be condemned to hell or in this case, they're ignoring Jesus's call. 

To me, this sounds like people putting themselves in the place of God and trying to work something out that we can't work out for ourselves. 

I have more than one friend who were raised 5-point Calvinist who now consider themselves Atheist or Agnostic because they think God creating people to be tormented forever and God causing all evil isn't someone they care to worship.  Some of them are Pastor's kids.

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Katy said:

I have more than one friend who were raised 5-point Calvinist who now consider themselves Atheist or Agnostic because they think God creating people to be tormented forever and God causing all evil isn't someone they care to worship.  Some of them are Pastor's kids.

Very prevalent here. I don't know that Calvinist theologians can effectively argue them out of it.

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, Katy said:

I have more than one friend who were raised 5-point Calvinist who now consider themselves Atheist or Agnostic because they think God creating people to be tormented forever and God causing all evil isn't someone they care to worship.  Some of them are Pastor's kids.

That seems like such a strange solution to me. I mean, God exists or he doesn't....and that isn't determined by how repulsive you think he is.  

(not that I disagree that 5 point teaching is repugnant....I also don't believe God torments anyone in hell or anywhere)

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Scarlett said:

That seems like such a strange solution to me. I mean, God exists or he doesn't....and that isn't determined by how repulsive you think he is.  

(not that I disagree that 5 point teaching is repugnant....I also don't believe God torments anyone in hell or anywhere)

But, just because god or a god exists doesn't automatically mean, to those who see the entity as problematic, equate to being compelled to worship something that they find immoral in and of itself. They question the base assumption that such a god should be worshipped or obeyed. Existence really is not necessarily the jumping off pint, but once one gets to this point, then it is not uncommon for the cognitive processes to logically try to figure out if there is any evidence for such a being, and often times, they conclude no. It is not illogical.

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

That seems like such a strange solution to me. I mean, God exists or he doesn't....and that isn't determined by how repulsive you think he is.  

(not that I disagree that 5 point teaching is repugnant....I also don't believe God torments anyone in hell or anywhere)

Eh, if you recognize the logical inconsistencies and see the irony in people assuming they are among God's chosen it's easy to rationalize that it's ALL made up to manipulate people.

And I think in the case of a few, they grew up loving God and when they went through the teen classes and discovered the God they loved was a horrible monster who delights in torture, they couldn't reconcile the two and just decided it was all a fantasy.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

But, just because god or a god exists doesn't automatically mean, to those who see the entity as problematic, equate to being compelled to worship something that they find immoral in and of itself. They question the base assumption that such a god should be worshipped or obeyed. Existence really is not necessarily the jumping off pint, but once one gets to this point, then it is not uncommon for the cognitive processes to logically try to figure out if there is any evidence for such a being, and often times, they conclude no. It is not illogical.

I guess I can see how someone might get to that point....but I don't agree that it is logical.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Eh, if you recognize the logical inconsistencies and see the irony in people assuming they are among God's chosen it's easy to rationalize that it's ALL made up to manipulate people.

And I think in the case of a few, they grew up loving God and when they went through the teen classes and discovered the God they loved was a horrible monster who delights in torture, they couldn't reconcile the two and just decided it was all a fantasy.

My husband who is a christian does not belittle our atheist son. C, makes a lor of semse, very rational. What we have found is that most Christians we encounter are completely freaked out by anyone questioning their beliefs, and they just lose it on anyone who was ever "in the fold" that decided there was no evidence that their beliefs are the only real truth. Frankly, with as many denominations and versions of Christianity that there are in the world, it doesn't infuse him with any confidence that any particular theology has a claim to truth. Much of Christian theology is truly fantastical, a mystery as is said so often. Believing in that kind of inexplicable unknown is not more rational than expecting there to be empirical evidence for theology in order for it to be believed.

Most Christians really do fail to understand the key problems with Christian theology.

Add to it nonsense like all the extremist cults, and you have a perfect storm of folks who are done or none. They should be heard, and not dismissed out of hand with phony arguments.

[Faith-manor]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess I can see how someone might get to that point....but I don't agree that it is logical.

That is fair. But I will be honest, I see most Christian theology to be illogical and based on human, wishful thinking. So it goes both ways. 😉

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

There are at least a number of verses that show that God's hope/ideal plan is for everyone to "be saved."   Such as  1 John 2:2, 1 Tim. 2:4, 1 Tim. 4:10, John 3:16.

You might be interested in the book God of The Possible, an interesting possibility.

The doctrine of predestination (which has its own Bible verses) does not preclude Unlimited Atonement (that Jesus died on the cross for everyone).  Thus 4 point Calvinists.  Many believe that God foreknew who would be saved and those equal those predestined. 

 

 

 

 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

That is fair. But I will be honest, I see most Christian theology to be illogical and based on human, wishful thinking. So it goes both ways. 😉

I am wondering what the the wishful part is of that 5 point teaching.....who would wish for that?

 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Scarlett said:

I am wondering what the the wishful part is of that 5 point teaching.....who would wish for that?

 

I certainly wouldn't! Great question. My best guess is maybe those who feel there needs to be a fear based horrific punishment method of scaring people into faith and keeping believers in line? Not sure. 

[chiguirre]

15 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I am wondering what the the wishful part is of that 5 point teaching.....who would wish for that?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

I think other people like the idea of a God who punishes other people. 

 

 

I think this is the answer.

[J-rap]

26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The doctrine of predestination (which has its own Bible verses) does not preclude Unlimited Atonement (that Jesus died on the cross for everyone).  Thus 4 point Calvinists.  Many believe that God foreknew who would be saved and those equal those predestined. 

 

 

 

 

I can't quite wrap my head around the idea of predestination and what I believe to be God's unyielding hope and ongoing involvement in each our lives to bring everyone to him.

How would that even work?  

[Scarlett]

13 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Truth be told though, don't most of us want people to be accountable for their actions? The idea of God as a judge who knows all and is completely fair is nice. Is Adolf Hitler in hell? 

Even if Hitler repented at the last second, it still doesn't undo the terrible suffering that he brought into the world. 

(I'm using Hitler for this example because everyone agrees that he's bad with no redeeming qualities.)

 

I think we do all want people to be accountable.  I think the disconnect is that somehow eternal torment equals accountability.

[MercyA]

22 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Yup - it is a basic belief of the denomination. 

Yep. Also known as the Frozen Chosen (due to their formality in worship). 🙂 

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

John Calvin himself burning a former friend at the stake using green wood to make the torture last longer. 

Calvin admitted he was ultimately responsible for Servetus's death and seemed proud of the fact. But it was the City Council who decided on green wood; Calvin reportedly wanted him beheaded.

Disgusting, horrible, and indefensible, regardless. 😞 

[Katy]

52 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What do you do without purgatory knowing that there is often not justice in this world? I think that's how the idea behind the prosperity Gospel. God rewards people who are good and punishes bad people in ways that you can actually see. But we all know that doesn't work. Innocent children can suffer terrible and terrible people can live a life of luxury. 

I go back to what before, I think this is just people trying to rationalize things. We all know innocent people suffer so how do we make sense of it? 

This is very interesting.  I don't know the answer.  I do think religious abuse is the #1 reason people abandon faith though.

[MercyA]

52 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, but what other accountability is there ultimately?

Annihilationism is a possibility.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Going to just put out there what I believe is taught in the Bible:

God is holy.  His holiness is beyond anything that a "good" person can attain on their own.  His holiness is also completely incompatible with sin.  (This is what is meant by total depravity - not that we are all little Hitlers - but that we are totally unable to attain God's standards on our own merits). 

Satan is the one who introduced evil to the world.  He is the one who introduced all the consequences of evil - death, pain etc.  Blamed him, not God.

Hell was designed for Satan and his demons - not mankind.  But hell means eternal separation from God.  Many are separated from God during their human life.  This just extends afterwards for those with no relationship with God. 

A holy God still wants to have a relationship with sinful man.  He has provided every single thing necessary for a relationship with Him through what Jesus Christ did on the cross - by being a sinless substitute who took our punishment (death and separation from God) for ALL of us.  All we have to do is to believe that He did this for us.  That's it.  We don't have to add anything to it.  We don't have to try to earn salvation on our own.  This is what is meant by "I am the way, the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by me."

God is omniscient and outside of time.  He has known who would have a relationship with Him.  He's provided the solution for everyone but He knows (sorrowfully) that not all will avail themselves of the solution He's provided.  He will not force people to have a relationship with Him.

This is seen as foolishness in the World.  It's also seen as offensive in the World.  (Not saying that some people don't believe in offensive things that are outside of Scripture as well.  That is obviously true as well. )

The reason why I believe that "once saved, always saved" is because when I believed, I was regenerated through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I was changed to have spiritual life where once I was spiritually dead.  That depends on what God did for me and His faithfulness, not on me.  So no matter what I do, I will not become "spiritually dead" again because my inner core has been changed. 

 

**  Anyway - not interested in arguing any of this.  Just explaining.  I will clarify anything if people want but am not interested in a debate where someone tries to prove that I'm wrong or evil etc.  I'm also not interested in arguing someone into agreement with me. 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, but what other accountability is there ultimately?

Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death.  That is the accountability God set.  Not eternal torment.

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Rom 6:23 says the wages of sin is death.  That is the accountability God set.  Not eternal torment.

Scarlett I know JW's Bible is different but the rest of us have a Bible where Jesus warned us about people in hell for eternity.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Katy said:

Scarlett I know JW's Bible is different but the rest of us have a Bible where Jesus warned us about people in hell for eternity.

Our Bible is not different.

 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

Our Bible is not different.

 

Then how does your theology explain the passages where Jesus warns us about hell?

ETA: Time for me to go make dinner, if it takes me a while to respond.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Katy

[Scarlett]

7 minutes ago, Katy said:

Then how does your theology explain the passages where Jesus warns us about hell?

ETA: Time for me to go make dinner, if it takes me a while to respond.

As a symbol of eternal death not of eternal torment.  I am working and then have to go make dinner too.

[WildflowerMom]

43 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Going to just put out there what I believe is taught in the Bible:

God is holy.  His holiness is beyond anything that a "good" person can attain on their own.  His holiness is also completely incompatible with sin.  (This is what is meant by total depravity - not that we are all little Hitlers - but that we are totally unable to attain God's standards on our own merits). 

Satan is the one who introduced evil to the world.  He is the one who introduced all the consequences of evil - death, pain etc.  Blamed him, not God.

Hell was designed for Satan and his demons - not mankind.  But hell means eternal separation from God.  Many are separated from God during their human life.  This just extends afterwards for those with no relationship with God. 

A holy God still wants to have a relationship with sinful man.  He has provided every single thing necessary for a relationship with Him through what Jesus Christ did on the cross - by being a sinless substitute who took our punishment (death and separation from God) for ALL of us.  All we have to do is to believe that He did this for us.  That's it.  We don't have to add anything to it.  We don't have to try to earn salvation on our own.  This is what is meant by "I am the way, the truth and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by me."

God is omniscient and outside of time.  He has known who would have a relationship with Him.  He's provided the solution for everyone but He knows (sorrowfully) that not all will avail themselves of the solution He's provided.  He will not force people to have a relationship with Him.

This is seen as foolishness in the World.  It's also seen as offensive in the World.  (Not saying that some people don't believe in offensive things that are outside of Scripture as well.  That is obviously true as well. )

The reason why I believe that "once saved, always saved" is because when I believed, I was regenerated through the power of the Holy Spirit.  I was changed to have spiritual life where once I was spiritually dead.  That depends on what God did for me and His faithfulness, not on me.  So no matter what I do, I will not become "spiritually dead" again because my inner core has been changed. 

 

**  Anyway - not interested in arguing any of this.  Just explaining.  I will clarify anything if people want but am not interested in a debate where someone tries to prove that I'm wrong or evil etc.  I'm also not interested in arguing someone into agreement with me. 

This is what I believe, also.   

[kbutton]

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

There are at least a number of verses that show that God's hope/ideal plan is for everyone to "be saved."   Such as  1 John 2:2, 1 Tim. 2:4, 1 Tim. 4:10, John 3:16.

Yes, I agree. I was just pointing out that this discussion is a very old one. 😉 I am not strictly Calvinist or Armenian. 

[MercyA]

nm 🙂 

Edited May 17, 2021 by MercyA

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Yes, I agree. I was just pointing out that this discussion is a very old one. 😉 I am not strictly Calvinist or Armenian. 

Same. There is Scripture to support both positions. I believe it's all true, and I don't have to understand it, and I don't have to try to make it fit neatly into a theological box. 

[HeartString]

40 minutes ago, Katy said:

Then how does your theology explain the passages where Jesus warns us about hell?

ETA: Time for me to go make dinner, if it takes me a while to respond.

At least one interpretation is that “Hell” was a metaphor.  The word we interpret as Hell was the town/local dump where they burned refuse.  Jesus was metaphorically comparing the afterlife to that physical location outside of town that everyone would have known.   
 

This article mentions it.. 

https://www.postost.net/2015/11/was-gehenna-burning-rubbish-dump-does-it-matter

Edited May 17, 2021 by HeartString

[MercyA]

I really like the civility of this discussion. ❤️

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Satan is the one who introduced evil to the world.  He is the one who introduced all the consequences of evil - death, pain etc.  Blamed him, not God.

 

How do you get around God creating Satan? If he created Satan, he created evil. If he didn't, Zoroaster was right.

So we end up right back at the logical problem of evil. How do we explain evil if there is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent creator?

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

How do you get around God creating Satan? If he created Satan, he created evil. If he didn't, Zoroaster was right.

Not Jean, obviously, but Satan wasn't created evil. He had free will, just as we do.

[chiguirre]

Just now, MercyA said:

Not Jean, obviously, but Satan wasn't created evil. He had free will, just as we do.

But if God's omniscient, he knew this. So why wasn't he omnibenevolent enough to refrain from creating Satan?

[MercyA]

6 minutes ago, HeartString said:

At least one interpretation is that “Hell” was a metaphor.  The word we interpret as Hell was the town/local dump where they burned refuse.  Jesus was metaphorically comparing the afterlife to that physical location outside of town that everyone would have known.   

It does seem in the parable of the rich man in torment that there is consciousness and a continuation of identity in hell, at least for a time. 

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Not Jean, obviously, but Satan wasn't created evil. He had free will, just as we do.

My understanding is that angels don’t have free will, only humans.  That’s the meaning of  “In his image”.  Not that God is a humanoid, but he has free will and so do we.   I have no idea how Satan manages to do his thing because he shouldn’t have been able to.  

Edited May 17, 2021 by HeartString

[MercyA]

Just now, chiguirre said:

But if God's omniscient, he knew this. So why wasn't he omnibenevolent enough to refrain from creating Satan?

I am not convinced that the future is still not open, even for God.

For example, the Bible records in several places that God changed His mind--and even at one point regretted making man. 

[chiguirre]

Just now, MercyA said:

I am not convinced that the future is still not open, even for God.

For example, the Bible records in several places that God changed His mind--and even at one point regretted making man. 

Are you saying that God is not omniscient?

[MercyA]

Just now, HeartString said:

My understanding is that angels don’t have free will, only humans.  That’s the meaning of  “In his image”.  Not that God is a humanoid, but he has free will and so do we.   I have no idea how Satan manages to do his thing because he shouldn’t have been able to.  

I hadn't heard that before. 

The angels are called sons of God--who is to say that they weren't also made in His image, or that made in His image refers primarily to free will?

Not trying to be argumentative! This is just a novel thought to me.

[HeartString]

Just now, MercyA said:

I hadn't heard that before. 

The angels are called sons of God--who is to say that they weren't also made in His image, or that made in His image refers primarily to free will?

Not trying to be argumentative! This is just a novel thought to me.

I think I read that in the Unseen Realm.  I’ll have to see if I can find it 

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Are you saying that God is not omniscient?

I think He knows everything that is possible to know right now.

I also think He knows some things that will happen in the future, because He causes them to come to pass or has enough knowledge to see that they will come to pass.

Edited May 17, 2021 by MercyA

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

I think He knows everything that is possible to know right now.

I also think He knows some things that will happen in the future, because He causes them to pass or has enough knowledge to see that they will pass.

That is logical, but it is not what Christians usually say about God in my experience. They're pretty firm on the omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent characterization.

[Katy]

I think God exists outside of time.  And therefore knows everything that we will choose.  It feels like predestination but it doesn’t preclude free will.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

13 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

How do you get around God creating Satan? If he created Satan, he created evil. If he didn't, Zoroaster was right.

So we end up right back at the logical problem of evil. How do we explain evil if there is an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent creator?

God created Satan as Lucifer, an angel of light.  In fact,  he was in a very high position as an angel.  But Lucifer (and the angels who followed him) had free will and chose to oppose God. 

[chiguirre]

Just now, Katy said:

I think God exists outside of time.  And therefore knows everything that we will choose.  It feels like predestination but it doesn’t preclude free will.  

How would you explain the Satan conundrum?

[chiguirre]

1 minute ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

God created Satan as Lucifer, an angel of light.  In fact,  he was in a very high position as an angel.  But Lucifer (and the angels who followed him) had free will and chose to oppose God. 

How does that square with omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence in your view? Are you with @MercyAthat God didn't know Lucifer would be evil when he created him?

[HeartString]

12 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I think I read that in the Unseen Realm.  I’ll have to see if I can find it 

I may also have misunderstood.  Looking through it now reminds me that that book is so far over my head.  It has so many different layers of angels, demons, other spiritual beings.  
 

It does seem that “sin” entered the picture in the spiritual realm and on Earth at around the same time and effected both.  From that book at least. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by HeartString

[regentrude]

14 minutes ago, MercyA said:

For example, the Bible records in several places that God changed His mind--and even at one point regretted making man. 

I don't blame Him. He must have regretted this many many times.

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

That is logical, but it is not what Christians usually say about God in my experience. They're pretty firm on the omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent characterization.

That has always been my stumbling block. Nobody has ever been able to explain to me how God can be both benevolent and omnipotent in choosing to let innocents suffer. 

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

How does that square with omniscience, omnipotence and omnibenevolence in your view? Are you with @MercyAthat God didn't know Lucifer would be evil when he created him?

Just to clarify: based on my understanding of Scripture, I believe God created Satan with the hope that he--and all the angels--would choose to freely follow Him. Just like He hoped that for man, and it did not come to pass: "The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled." Genesis 6:6

I would not say for sure that God did not know Satan would ultimately choose to rebel--just that I am open to that possibility.