s/o Duggar - Christian deception, Coronavirus, dominionism, insurrection, etc

[Pam in CT]

re how safety-seeking engenders othering; and if you have to do it for two lives, you have to do it twice as vehemently

15 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

People are afraid and when they have to fear both for this life and the next, it is unsurprising they will look for ways to be right and safe. Unfortunately, that requires other people to be wrong and unsafe in comparison. "Pretty much everything in moderation" isn't dogmatic enough to make dogma seeking people feel safe.

Huh.

That is very thought-provoking.

 

 

13 hours ago, J-rap said:

I agree it is really disturbing and shocking.  Possibly the most disturbing thing I've ever experienced in my lifetime.  I've read so much about WWII and how the German Christians were suckered into supporting Hitler and wondered how in the world they could be caught up in all that.  Wow.  And now here we are.  I honestly can't quite articulate the root of it, except I think it was decades in the making.  Really sweet people I love have been caught up in this.  I'd recommend the book The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd.  He is my pastor and I'm so fortunate to be part of that community.

Oh my. Please let him know that there's a circle of East Coast progressive Jewish religious-not-spiritual * close-readers-of-text who are his major fans.

 

 

 

* yes, that really is what I mean, LOL

[Stacia]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

In the Methodist church, we have traditionalist churches calling out the progressive churches and claiming that anyone who attends a progressive church is not a true Christian. That denomination will split over the issue of homosexual ordination and gay marriage in the coming year, though this has been an issue with them since the 70's. The difference is that at one time, in general, churches sought to be more reconciliation - agree to disagree in love - and now it is just vicious name calling on both sides, and has even descended into family against family in some places and again " not a real Christian" statements being used.

I recently read about this upcoming split (vote to be next year) because a large/megachurch in a major metro area just decided to disaffiliate with the main Methodist group. They say that it's because their pastor was told to reassign without warning (to a position on the race and reconciliation group), but the pastor doesn't want to leave his current position (in it since 2016), so he and this huge church are just breaking away. To me, it seems like there may be more there than grumpiness over a reassignment so I will be interested to see if they join the breakaway group once it is formed ("new, conservative “traditionalist” Methodist denominations. Churches and conferences would be able to vote to join those new denominations and take their properties with them.")

I don't know much about Methodist set-up but I was pretty shocked to read about a pastor and his megachurches (2 locations) just quickly deciding to "leave", especially with these plans already in the works for the denomination at large.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Stacia

[Danae]

10 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I recently read about this upcoming split (vote to be next year) because a large/megachurch in a major metro area just decided to disaffiliate with the main Methodist group. They say that it's because their pastor was told to reassign without warning (to a position on the race and reconciliation group), but the pastor doesn't want to leave his current position (in it since 2016), so he and this huge church are just breaking away. To me, it seems like there may be more there than grumpiness over a reassignment so I will be interested to see if they join the breakaway group once it is formed ("new, conservative “traditionalist” Methodist denominations. Churches and conferences would be able to vote to join those new denominations and take their properties with them.")

I don't know much about Methodist set-up but I was pretty shocked to read about a pastor and his megachurches (2 locations) just quickly deciding to "leave", especially with these plans already in the works for the denomination at large.

Mega churches and mega church pastors have an uneasy relationship with the UMC. The denomination is structured in a way that should avoid the cult of personality around pastors, but a whole bunch of factors including longer average appointments and changing relationship to media and social media have eroded that somewhat.  The guy you mention wouldn’t be the first to decide that the fact that a church grew huge while he was its senior pastor means that he knows more than everyone else and is therefore exempt from his ordination vows when he disagrees with the bishop and cabinet.

[J-rap]

13 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes, me too, but I've become aware that I just wasn't paying attention before because it didn't affect me. 

I think you're absolutely right.  

[J-rap]

4 hours ago, Seasider too said:

I read Bonhoeffer last year and had the same thoughts about the American church going the way of the pre WW2 German church. But also, ironically, smh over the fact that the author of Bonhoeffer apparently jumped off the ledge himself. 

You know, I almost went back and added that Bonhoeffer book to my post!  I read it last year as well.  I learned a lot from it and I'm a huge fan of Bonhoeffer now.  He seemed to have a very keen insight at a very young age, and could see the big picture when few others could.  A (still living!) pastor you might like is Rob Schenck.  He was more widely known as the pastor for the far-right legislators, for years...  He did an about-face and is now president of the Dietrich Bonhoeffer Institute.  (His book Costly Grace is interesting.)  

And yeah, it's really baffling that the author of the Bonhoeffer book is now completely sucked in to the conspiracy theories going around and such.  I'm glad I didn't know that until after I read the book!

[Farrar]

54 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I recently read about this upcoming split (vote to be next year) because a large/megachurch in a major metro area just decided to disaffiliate with the main Methodist group. They say that it's because their pastor was told to reassign without warning (to a position on the race and reconciliation group), but the pastor doesn't want to leave his current position (in it since 2016), so he and this huge church are just breaking away. To me, it seems like there may be more there than grumpiness over a reassignment so I will be interested to see if they join the breakaway group once it is formed ("new, conservative “traditionalist” Methodist denominations. Churches and conferences would be able to vote to join those new denominations and take their properties with them.")

I don't know much about Methodist set-up but I was pretty shocked to read about a pastor and his megachurches (2 locations) just quickly deciding to "leave", especially with these plans already in the works for the denomination at large.

I grew up Baptist, but when my mother was pursuing ordination, she flirted with becoming a Methodist so she could have more job opportunities (and was a Methodist children's minister for a long while during div school, which was super lucrative for me as a teen babysitter, lol) so I know a bit about this - and from the perspective that it's odd since it's not the way churches work in other denominations I've been in. But in the UMC, there's a good bit of job security that you don't see in a lot of Protestant denominations where the churches have complete or nearly complete autonomy to hire who they like. Methodists purposefully shuffle ministers around, in part to keep ministers from getting more attached to their congregations than they are to the church hierarchy as a whole. Like Danae said - it's an uneasy relationship. 

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re how safety-seeking engenders othering; and if you have to do it for two lives, you have to do it twice as vehemently

Huh.

That is very thought-provoking.

 

 

Oh my. Please let him know that there's a circle of East Coast progressive Jewish religious-not-spiritual * close-readers-of-text who are his major fans.

 

 

 

* yes, that really is what I mean, LOL

Oh my goodness!  I WILL let him know!  I know that when he hears things like that, it really means a lot.

For the life of me though, I can't quite understand what religious-not-spiritual means!  🤣   I feel so dense!!   Does that mean you support the philosophy of religious practice but don't hold specific spiritual views?

[Faith-manor]

59 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I recently read about this upcoming split (vote to be next year) because a large/megachurch in a major metro area just decided to disaffiliate with the main Methodist group. They say that it's because their pastor was told to reassign without warning (to a position on the race and reconciliation group), but the pastor doesn't want to leave his current position (in it since 2016), so he and this huge church are just breaking away. To me, it seems like there may be more there than grumpiness over a reassignment so I will be interested to see if they join the breakaway group once it is formed ("new, conservative “traditionalist” Methodist denominations. Churches and conferences would be able to vote to join those new denominations and take their properties with them.")

I don't know much about Methodist set-up but I was pretty shocked to read about a pastor and his megachurches (2 locations) just quickly deciding to "leave", especially with these plans already in the works for the denomination at large.

Well, it is the stalling. As I like to call it, kicking the can down the road for 40+ years. People are tired of it, and enough is enough. So then the pandemic came along and 2020 general conference was canceled, then the pandemic kept going so 2021 was canceled, and now it will be 2022 before any decisions are made, and it is still dicey over what decisions will be made. The larger churches are tired of sitting on the fence wondering. The Michigan Conference will absolutely go progressive or remain, but many of the small, rural churches are traditionalist and will leave to be in the conservative Methodist denomination. Unfortunately, many of them cannot make it financially without a robust organization behind them that has enough money to carry little churches while requiring very little contribution. So I think there will be a wave of rural Methodist churches combining or simply closing. I don't know if the new denomination will last long or not.

[Stacia]

37 minutes ago, Danae said:

Mega churches and mega church pastors have an uneasy relationship with the UMC. The denomination is structured in a way that should avoid the cult of personality around pastors, but a whole bunch of factors including longer average appointments and changing relationship to media and social media have eroded that somewhat.  The guy you mention wouldn’t be the first to decide that the fact that a church grew huge while he was its senior pastor means that he knows more than everyone else and is therefore exempt from his ordination vows when he disagrees with the bishop and cabinet.

The article said he had been there since 2016 as pastor. I don't know if he was there prior to that (in some other position), but I do know it has been a megachurch for about 20 years, if not more.

Megachurches, no matter the denomination, seem to be a whole 'nother thing. I am not sure how they typically fit into their hierarchical structures....

[Stacia]

5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The Michigan Conference will absolutely go progressive or remain, but many of the small, rural churches are traditionalist and will leave to be in the conservative Methodist denomination. Unfortunately, many of them cannot make it financially without a robust organization behind them that has enough money to carry little churches while requiring very little contribution. So I think there will be a wave of rural Methodist churches combining or simply closing. I don't know if the new denomination will last long or not.

The article indicated it was likely this megachurch will be in the separate conservative branch, if and when it happens. So I guess that will be one big moneymaker in the group.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/26/prominent-atlanta-area-church-leaves-united-methodist-church-over-pastors-reassignment/

 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Stacia said:

The article said he had been there since 2016 as pastor. I don't know if he was there prior to that (in some other position), but I do know it has been a megachurch for about 20 years, if not more.

Megachurches, no matter the denomination, seem to be a whole 'nother thing. I am not sure how they typically fit into their hierarchical structures....

In the UMC they tend to have a lot of influence because they pay into each conference at very high apportionment levels. Money talks. Bishops have a tendency to pander to the largest churches, and being appointed to them is a sign of exceptional favor from the bishop, being moved away from one in a move that is not upward mobility or at least lateral is a sign of discontent with the bishop and district superintendent. It is unfortunately highly political these days. Dh's closest buddy is a UMC pastor of 20+ years so he gets the inside scoop. Dh is also now a Done, but back when he was still holding on, he was hoping to be able to land at a UMC with similar beliefs to his. But the split is going to be ugly, and where we are currently located, there won't be a denomination that fits the criteria. I think he would actually do okay in the Episcopal Church, but the nearest one is an hour away, and especially in the winter, he isn't going to drive that. Maybe when we move to Huntsville he will find an Episcopal. I doubt there would be a UU in the Bible Belt, and I don't think I as a mere Deist would be welcome to warm a pew with him at any other type of church.

[Stacia]

15 minutes ago, Farrar said:

But in the UMC, there's a good bit of job security that you don't see in a lot of Protestant denominations where the churches have complete or nearly complete autonomy to hire who they like. Methodists purposefully shuffle ministers around, in part to keep ministers from getting more attached to their congregations than they are to the church hierarchy as a whole. Like Danae said - it's an uneasy relationship. 

Makes sense to help avoid a cult of personality.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Stacia said:

The article indicated it was likely this megachurch will be in the separate conservative branch, if and when it happens. So I guess that will be one big moneymaker in the group.

https://religionnews.com/2021/04/26/prominent-atlanta-area-church-leaves-united-methodist-church-over-pastors-reassignment/

 

Yep. Obviously it is just going to be a mess. Some are going on way, some the other, and everybody up in arms. Ugh. I grew up UMC, and had things worked out differently in my life, might still be there. It is disconcerting to watch for sure, and the really sad thing is this is going to be one of those house divided against itself scenarios because parents and adult kids are divided, churches are divided though some are a little more staunchly one way or another. I know UMC families that are just losing it on each other. So much for grace, mercy, and love. Sigh.

[Stacia]

31 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

A good number of 'faithful' Catholics believe our pope is a communist or a socialist and can be completely ignored. 

I had wondered about that as I have seen statements over the past few years and was surprised because I thought the Pope was supposedly the infallible leader of the (Western) Catholic church?

Protestant churches having dust-ups over leadership doesn't seem that strange or out-of-the norm to me; unusual maybe but it does happen. But Catholics? I had thought (at least in my younger years) they toed the line for the Pope.

[J-rap]

17 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been saying for the past year that American Christians will be surprised and angry when they realize how much 'prestige' they've lost due to their affiliation with Trump and terrible response to COVID. I many of these people are fine with the Dones leaving. They weren't "pure" enough anyway, right? But, I think they fail to appreciate that the Dones and the Nones is what provided them the status of a majority religion. They want their cake and to eat it too, to be "pure" but retain the prestige that goes along with being the majority religion. 

My theory about my old church (Orthodoxy) and my new church (Roman Catholicism) is that the bishops (in both) are completely clueless about what is happening on the ground. They don't know how divided people and churches actually are. They don't realize how many of their flock have been radicalized by online influencers. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are supposed to be hierarchical but what has happened is that these influencers are completely outside of the hierarchy but have more influence than the bishops on new converts, people in the pews, and the clergy themselves. Many Orthodox priests completely ignored the instructions from their bishops about COVID precautions because they heard from these online influencers that masks were evil and COVID was a hoax, etc. So these people, who pledge obedience to their bishops, decided to ignore their bishops. That's huge. 

In American Catholicism today, there is almost a de facto schism. A good number of 'faithful' Catholics believe our pope is a communist or a socialist and can be completely ignored. We have a bishop who is trying to set up a commune of "good Catholics" in his diocese who writes on Twitter that it is immoral to get the COVID vaccines. A group of bishops are threatening to withhold communion from President Biden, when a slight majority of American Catholics voted for Biden. I've been told by priests and laypeople that my vote for Biden means that I shouldn't receive communion. 

 

I'm aware of a lot of this stuff, and it makes me sad.  My dh is Catholic (although he doesn't attend the Catholic church anymore), and I've learned so much from my exposure to the Catholic church as a result.   At least in our state, the Catholic church is even now the community known for supporting so many social justice issues and really focusing on the poor, sacrificing for others, and making their faith their life philosophy.   But at the same time, it's been really difficult for the church to break out of certain long-held doctrine... just like any other denomination I suppose.  

We went through our pre-marriage counseling sessions through the Catholic church, and the whole way, they were very thoughtful and inclusive and welcoming to me (a Lutheran!).  It seemed so against their general philosophy to not allow me, a faithful-but-not-Catholic Christian, to receive communion with my dh at the end.

It's interesting how friends and relatives of mine who do still consider themselves Catholic are quite "progressive" and do not support everything the Catholic church espouses.   

 

 

[J-rap]

13 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This same simplistic approach governs Metaxas's writing about German theology and about the church struggle under National Socialism. He flippantly compares the theological controversy between Harnack and Barth to the conflict between latter-day Darwinians and proponents of Intelligent Design. He presents the Confessing Church as if it were an American denomination founded by Bonhoeffer. Indeed, he describes the battles of American fundamentalists and of the Confessing Church as essentially the same. Bonhoeffer, Metaxas tells us, "equated the fundamentalists with the Confessing Church. Here they were fighting against the corrupting influences of the theologians at Union and Riverside, and at home the fight was against the Reich church."

Interesting.  I'd have to re-read the book again to pick up on this.  From my memory though, I had thought that even Bonhoeffer became disillusioned with the Confessing Church because they lacked the courage in the end to do the right thing.

[J-rap]

16 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Little mistakes cast light on vast tracts of incomprehension; most objectionable is perhaps his dangerously simplistic portrayal of Nazis as godless liberals and German dissidents as Bible-believing Christians. Had Metaxas done the most casual background reading on the so-called Church Struggle, he would have learned, one would hope, that Bonhoeffer eventually despaired of the Confessing Church movement because it refused to speak forthrightly against the Nazi government. The failure of even dissident Christians to mount a meaningful opposition to Hitler was the context within which Bonhoeffer agreed to take part in the conspiracy alongside a cadre of humanists, atheists, and the disillusioned “children of the church.”

Another point worth mentioning: In portraying Bonhoeffer as a conservative Christian who forcibly denounces humanism, Metaxas blithely ignores Bonhoeffer’s abiding loyalty to the Western humanistic tradition and to the liberal ideals of toleration, justice, humanity, and reconciliation. Late in his life, with the nation in ruins, Bonhoeffer spoke of his great joy in finding once again nourishment in that great scholarly tradition of the nineteenth century, and he affirmed the “polyphony of life” and “religionless Christianity.” But Metaxas dismisses these fragmentary and luminous meditations from prison as little more than fodder for the death of God movement of the late 1960s, explaining lamely that Bonhoeffer never intended the writings to be taken seriously.

Again, it's been a year since I've read this, but my memory holds this information differently.  In my memory, it was the traditional fundamentalists who were wanting to hold on to their faith at all costs, even through politics, and who held on to the Nazi party out of fear of change.  And my understanding of the German dissidents he wrote about and who called themselves Christians were Christians who wrestled with their faith and what it meant to really be Christ-like in their choices/actions.  (And I guess I don't even know for sure what bible-believing means anymore!  It seems to have such different connotations!)

[Katy]

20 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I had wondered about that as I have seen statements over the past few years and was surprised because I thought the Pope was supposedly the infallible leader of the (Western) Catholic church?

Protestant churches having dust-ups over leadership doesn't seem that strange or out-of-the norm to me; unusual maybe but it does happen. But Catholics? I had thought (at least in my younger years) they toed the line for the Pope.

Not Catholic, but I have worked in nursing for a couple Catholic hospitals and even a stint in a Convent for a while (as a nurse, not a nun).  The ones I worked with were mostly of Irish decent, and extremely liberal about everything except abortion. Liberation Theology liberal. The Pope is human, and is considered infallible only when interpreting doctrine.  There's some official language that Catholics use for that, but that's what it means from a protestant perspective.  The thing is many at least American devout Catholics disagree with the Pope all the time, but when you ask they say that the point is that unity is more important than being right.  Which is the opposite of the protestant point of view, which has Church splits over every doctrinal issue there is.  I wonder how all of these recent evangelical conversions feel about that, or if they even understand.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Katy

[fairfarmhand]

32 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

In the UMC they tend to have a lot of influence because they pay into each conference at very high apportionment levels. Money talks. Bishops have a tendency to pander to the largest churches, and being appointed to them is a sign of exceptional favor from the bishop, being moved away from one in a move that is not upward mobility or at least lateral is a sign of discontent with the bishop and district superintendent. It is unfortunately highly political these days. Dh's closest buddy is a UMC pastor of 20+ years so he gets the inside scoop. Dh is also now a Done, but back when he was still holding on, he was hoping to be able to land at a UMC with similar beliefs to his. But the split is going to be ugly, and where we are currently located, there won't be a denomination that fits the criteria. I think he would actually do okay in the Episcopal Church, but the nearest one is an hour away, and especially in the winter, he isn't going to drive that. Maybe when we move to Huntsville he will find an Episcopal. I doubt there would be a UU in the Bible Belt, and I don't think I as a mere Deist would be welcome to warm a pew with him at any other type of church.

There are UUs here in the South. 

Especially the bigger cities have a larger variety of people than you might think exist. Nashville I know has gotten a lot more cosmopolitan .

A LOT of people from the West Coast are relocating out this way.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

There are UUs here in the South. 

Especially the bigger cities have a larger variety of people than you might think exist. Nashville I know has gotten a lot more cosmopolitan .

A LOT of people from the West Coast are relocating out this way.

Thank you for responding. Nashville once in a while would definitely be doable.

[Stacia]

3 minutes ago, Katy said:

The Pope is human, and is considered only infallible when interpreting doctrine.  There's some official language that Catholics use for that, but that's what it means from a protestant perspective.  The thing is many at least American devout Catholics disagree with the Pope all the time, but when you ask they say that the point is that unity is more important than being right.  Which is the opposite of the protestant point of view, which has Church splits over every doctrinal issue there is.  I wonder how all of these recent evangelical conversions feel about that, or if they even understand.

Thanks for the clarification re: him being infallible when interpreting doctrine. That is what I understood but didn't say very well.

I do wonder if there will be a shift or split coming (not immediately but are the seeds being sown?), similar to what is going on in various Protestant denominations.

[Stacia]

8 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Thank you for responding. Nashville once in a while would definitely be doable.

Atlanta also has multiple UU churches. I think one of them is one of the largest in the US.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, Stacia said:

Thanks for the clarification re: him being infallible when interpreting doctrine. That is what I understood but didn't say very well.

I do wonder if there will be a shift or split coming (not immediately but are the seeds being sown?), similar to what is going on in various Protestant denominations.

I doubt it, because the converts don't have any power.  I think it's more likely they'll leave or come around.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been saying for the past year that American Christians will be surprised and angry when they realize how much 'prestige' they've lost due to their affiliation with Trump and terrible response to COVID. I many of these people are fine with the Dones leaving. They weren't "pure" enough anyway, right? But, I think they fail to appreciate that the Dones and the Nones is what provided them the status of a majority religion. They want their cake and to eat it too, to be "pure" but retain the prestige that goes along with being the majority religion. 

My theory about my old church (Orthodoxy) and my new church (Roman Catholicism) is that the bishops (in both) are completely clueless about what is happening on the ground. They don't know how divided people and churches actually are. They don't realize how many of their flock have been radicalized by online influencers. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are supposed to be hierarchical but what has happened is that these influencers are completely outside of the hierarchy but have more influence than the bishops on new converts, people in the pews, and the clergy themselves. Many Orthodox priests completely ignored the instructions from their bishops about COVID precautions because they heard from these online influencers that masks were evil and COVID was a hoax, etc. So these people, who pledge obedience to their bishops, decided to ignore their bishops. That's huge. 

In American Catholicism today, there is almost a de facto schism. A good number of 'faithful' Catholics believe our pope is a communist or a socialist and can be completely ignored. We have a bishop who is trying to set up a commune of "good Catholics" in his diocese who writes on Twitter that it is immoral to get the COVID vaccines. A group of bishops are threatening to withhold communion from President Biden, when a slight majority of American Catholics voted for Biden. I've been told by priests and laypeople that my vote for Biden means that I shouldn't receive communion. 

 

I’m related to an orthodox archbishop; Ive known him my whole life.  He is literally one of the most clueless people I’ve ever met(very smart, but clueless about real life).  From what I hear from my still Orthodox relatives, there is a real disconnect between the church hierarchy and the parishioners, especially the younger ones.

[HS Mom in NC]

29 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

There are UUs here in the South. 

Especially the bigger cities have a larger variety of people than you might think exist. Nashville I know has gotten a lot more cosmopolitan .

A LOT of people from the West Coast are relocating out this way.

@Faith-manor
This phenomenon is known as The New South. We considered moving to Nashville. It's going on here in Raleigh-Durham too. They're university and tech cities with the world famous Research Triangle between them. It's why we're here. I read a statistic somewhere that 50% of people in NC 3 years ago weren't born in NC.  We're getting a lot of Northeastern retirees out of NY, NJ, and PA.  Women leading the Calvary Chapel Women's Bible Study in my city just outside Raleigh sound like mob bosses from the movies. We're also picking up conservative flight from CA, but a CA conservative usually has a more libertarian view of role of government which is decidedly different than Southern conservative view of the role of government as an instrument of societal change/maintenance. The traditionalist locals are losing. their. minds. over it.

Isn't Huntsville, AL a military research area? If so, those tend to pick up highly educated transplants from all over, which I assume would make the area more cosmopolitan and diverse in thought.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Isn't Huntsville, AL a military research area? If so, those tend to pick up highly educated transplants from all over, which I assume would make the area more cosmopolitan and diverse in thought.

I would hope so. But our daughter the not yet Done but getting on the edge has not been able to find anywhere to attend that wasn't polarized politically or being very much into scaring children with hell, fire, and brimstone. She would like for our grandsons to have some church activities, but the children's ministries of several churches she has tried have been on the scary side for someone who does not believe children get sent to hell for eternity just for being kids. She actually doesn't even believe in hell for humans, more of just a separation or ceasing to exist kind of thing. This makes it quite hard to fit into so many churches. But, you inspired me to go look, and a new UU church has been formed on the sight of the former Highlands UMC. I am going to encourage her to give it a try. I was pleased to see on their website some community service that I would be quite interested in when we move! 

[TechWife]

28 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Edited May 10, 2021 by TechWife

[Farrar]

It's not just big cities that have UU churches in the Bible Belt. A friend is on a UU church board that's in a small college town in NC. They're really all over the place. Obviously there are more in big cities, but most midsize cities and college towns also have a small UU congregation in much of the entire country - even the south.

[Pam in CT]

re what "religious-not-spiritual" means

2 hours ago, J-rap said:

Oh my goodness!  I WILL let him know!  I know that when he hears things like that, it really means a lot.

For the life of me though, I can't quite understand what religious-not-spiritual means!  🤣   I feel so dense!!   Does that mean you support the philosophy of religious practice but don't hold specific spiritual views?

Yeah, it doesn't much lend itself to interweb-scaled soundbites, LOL.  The most succinct working version is actually Kellyanne Conway's description of taking constructs & texts "seriously, not literally." 

It's hard to convey even in long form and even in person; and yet harder, I think, to people whose own relationship to their respective traditions weights creed over deed / belief over community.

 

Re Greg Boyle -- I first heard him interviewed on NPR, then read one of his early books, then actually met IRL a young man whose life trajectory he bent and ultimately transformed.  Then, years later, a dear IRL friend of mine (Republican and Catholic, FWIW with respect to the topics of this thread), told me that her church-based book group was reading Barking To the Choir, which I then read myself and thereafter pitched successfully to my synagogue-based book group.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Pam in CT
awkward wording

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Are you talking about the Catholic Church here? If so, I disagree. Many of the big names in Catholic circles are converts. Catholics are generally kind of enamored of converts and they have a little more power because of that. 

Yes, but how many of them are clergy? How many are bishops? How many are cardinals?

Then there's the reality that American Catholics are a small minority within the global church. Pope Francis may not be to the liking of American conservatives, but he wasn't picked to appeal to them. His job is to shore up the RCC in the global south where American conservative political views are complete anathema.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

In the UMC they tend to have a lot of influence because they pay into each conference at very high apportionment levels. Money talks. Bishops have a tendency to pander to the largest churches, and being appointed to them is a sign of exceptional favor from the bishop, being moved away from one in a move that is not upward mobility or at least lateral is a sign of discontent with the bishop and district superintendent. It is unfortunately highly political these days. Dh's closest buddy is a UMC pastor of 20+ years so he gets the inside scoop. Dh is also now a Done, but back when he was still holding on, he was hoping to be able to land at a UMC with similar beliefs to his. But the split is going to be ugly, and where we are currently located, there won't be a denomination that fits the criteria. I think he would actually do okay in the Episcopal Church, but the nearest one is an hour away, and especially in the winter, he isn't going to drive that. Maybe when we move to Huntsville he will find an Episcopal. I doubt there would be a UU in the Bible Belt, and I don't think I as a mere Deist would be welcome to warm a pew with him at any other type of church.

If you are moving to Huntsville, AL, we do have a UU church here.  Huntsville is different from the rest of Alabama- though not so different that even the media discusses praying for victims of natural disasters or other bad things.

[chiguirre]

58 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'd guess that a good portion of American born clergy are converts but I can't define exactly what "good portion" means. I don't know about bishops and cardinals. 

 

I googled and found this report from 2018:

https://www.usccb.org/news/2018/ordination-class-2018-cara-report-gives-reasons-hope-and-areas-growth

Quote

According to the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate's (CARA) annual survey, in the Ordination Class of 2018, almost all responding ordinands reported being baptized Catholic as an infant (90 percent). Among those who became Catholic later in life, the average age of conversion was 26. Four in five responding ordinands (83 percent) report that both their parents were Catholic when they were children. One in three (35 percent) has or had a relative who is a priest or religious.

 

[chiguirre]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Interesting. It probably varies somewhat by area. The majority of priests here are foreign born. That probably provides a kind of moderating influence in Catholic parishes. My experience with foreign born clergy is that they have very little interest in US politics. 

However, I still believe that converts have an outsized influence in the American Catholic Church. I agree that the American church is small within the worldwide church even though many American Catholics believe that their role is to "save" the Catholic Church. Many of the American Catholics with large platforms are converts. People like Taylor Marshall along with many of the integralists like Adrian Vermeule and Sohrab Ahmari. 

I'm not sure large platform on social media = actual influence among lay Catholics or among Church hierarchy.

[Terabith]

3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I would hope so. But our daughter the not yet Done but getting on the edge has not been able to find anywhere to attend that wasn't polarized politically or being very much into scaring children with hell, fire, and brimstone. She would like for our grandsons to have some church activities, but the children's ministries of several churches she has tried have been on the scary side for someone who does not believe children get sent to hell for eternity just for being kids. She actually doesn't even believe in hell for humans, more of just a separation or ceasing to exist kind of thing. This makes it quite hard to fit into so many churches. But, you inspired me to go look, and a new UU church has been formed on the sight of the former Highlands UMC. I am going to encourage her to give it a try. I was pleased to see on their website some community service that I would be quite interested in when we move! 

I would suggest she look at Episcopal or ELCA Lutheran churches as well.  

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I didn't mean to turn this into a debate about the power of converts in American Catholicism. The larger issue is related to the power of the right-wing in American Catholicism. Online Catholicism, in particular, is very right-wing. I think many in the hierarchy write this off as, "just online." That's a standard thing I used to hear as an Orthodox Christian, i.e. there's online Orthodoxy and *real* Orthodoxy. But every offensive I read online I heard in coffee hour and every jerk online is also at church on Sunday so I think that's a cop-out. 

Like I wrote above, the hierarchy doesn't realize that the "faithful" Catholics often pay more attention to these online celebrities than to their bishops. 

Deep State, Deep Church: How QAnon and Trumpism Have Infected the Catholic Church

My Catholic Circle is trying to Stop the Steal

It took me this long to read your links.  Thank you for sharing them!

[prairiewindmomma]

We left our church in part because q-anon and political ideas became an idol more precious than Jesus and his teachings to a lot of the members of our congregation. If you look at recent polling, Christian nationalism is a huge issue. We lost a lot of friends, and we have had to put some space into some family relationships. It’s both heartbreaking and scary. 

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/21/904798097/how-qanon-conspiracy-is-spreading-in-christian-communities-across-the-u-s

https://www.npr.org/2021/02/21/969539514/disinformation-fuels-a-white-evangelical-movement-it-led-1-virginia-pastor-to-qu

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I really hate the wheat/tares analogy someone mentioned previously. As I have mentioned elsewhere, we have been shunned for having left—we are viewed as a weed that shriveled in the sun or who has been plucked out. 
 

Ironically we viewed ourselves as having left an unhealthy situation (wheat, not tare).

In reality, labeling just devolves into tribalism and none of that is healthy. If good change can happen in a church, it will come from a diversity of opinions and not a bunch of likeminded people realizing that they should change themselves.

[Katy]

40 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I really hate the wheat/tares analogy someone mentioned previously. As I have mentioned elsewhere, we have been shunned for having left—we are viewed as a weed that shriveled in the sun or who has been plucked out. 
 

Ironically we viewed ourselves as having left an unhealthy situation (wheat, not tare).

In reality, labeling just devolves into tribalism and none of that is healthy. If good change can happen in a church, it will come from a diversity of opinions and not a bunch of likeminded people realizing that they should change themselves.

Except the analogy came from Jesus and I think the point was they will be mixed, I always thought until judgment day. If nothing else it’s comforting that even though this feels like a new problem it’s actually an ancient one.

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Stacia said:

I had wondered about that as I have seen statements over the past few years and was surprised because I thought the Pope was supposedly the infallible leader of the (Western) Catholic church?

Protestant churches having dust-ups over leadership doesn't seem that strange or out-of-the norm to me; unusual maybe but it does happen. But Catholics? I had thought (at least in my younger years) they toed the line for the Pope.

Many right now don't think he is REALLY pope. Lots of conspiracies....sort of how some don't think Biden is really president, etc. 

6 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

It's complicated. The last two popes were conservative and conservative Catholics were always telling everyone that they had to listen to the pope. Now the tide has shifted and they hate it. 

yup. 

5 hours ago, Stacia said:

Thanks for the clarification re: him being infallible when interpreting doctrine. That is what I understood but didn't say very well.

I do wonder if there will be a shift or split coming (not immediately but are the seeds being sown?), similar to what is going on in various Protestant denominations.

In my area I think there are two schismatic Catholic congregations. One I believe meets in a bar and mostly serves the LGBT community. 

[Stacia]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Many right now don't think he is REALLY pope.

😲 Ok. Wow. That's different. I'm not sure I had heard of that.

Smh.

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

but the children's ministries of several churches she has tried have been on the scary side for someone who does not believe children get sent to hell for eternity just for being kids. 

Just curious--these churches don't believe in an age of accountability? They think small children would be sent to hell for behaving like children? 

When the children were brought to Jesus, He blessed them. 

I personally don't like evangelism of young kids. Teaching Bible stories and Bible truths, yes!! But pushing children to "pray the sinner's prayer" or do similar things is very often manipulative and may even inoculate against true conversion later on, IMHO. 

[Faith-manor]

9 hours ago, MercyA said:

Just curious--these churches don't believe in an age of accountability? They think small children would be sent to hell for behaving like children? 

When the children were brought to Jesus, He blessed them. 

I personally don't like evangelism of young kids. Teaching Bible stories and Bible truths, yes!! But pushing children to "pray the sinner's prayer" or do similar things is very often manipulative and may even inoculate against true conversion later on, IMHO. 

Most of them believe that the age of accountability is very young, five/six year old. Others believe there is no age of accountability. Born a sinner, so if they die before saying "the sinner's prayer", they go to hell, even infants. There are those that believe their kids are part of the predestined ones so have no fear for their souls, and then still others who do think that children are not accountable until adulthood or close to adulthood, but use hell and fear of hell to control the kids and youth. Lots of VBS type church outreach here with hell imagery and using fears abject fear, to brainwash children. The church two blocks from our house makes Sunday School teachers sign a statement that they will remind the children every week in class that they could die at any time and go to hell so never disobey mom and dad, everyday try to remember what they did wrong and confess to god before they fall asleep in case they do not wake up the next day. The teaching begins in the kindergarten class, and anyone against this, has been told they cannot hold any ministry position in the church, some of the more vocal dissenters were asked to leave.

So basically they scare the tar out of kids as much as possible to " keep them in the faith". I told the pastor's wife, who often stops to chat when we are out walking for exercise (there are only a couple of good paths for this here so we see each other regularly, and she dutifully keeps trying to save my soul), bragged to me about it. Then she got upset about the folks that quit the church over it. She is just really naive, hate to say it. I mean, I feel like her actual motivations come from love. She truly believes this stuff and doesn't want children lost in torture for eternity. But honestly, I would never have been a Christian to begin with if I thought god got his kicks out of burning babies and children at the stake for all time. She has no idea how revolting she sounds, and how many of us on the outside have no intention of worshipping that kind of god. Not happening. If he exists and this is his gig, I would consider it immoral to bow the knee. I even tried to explain it to her once. She couldn't understand it. I worry about how this all affects her mentally and emotionally. They have 7 children, and child 4 was born with a major genetic problems and has global delays, is non communicative, and will require lifetime care. It pains me to think she is haunted by the thought that he will be tortured when he dies. I don't think they have a concept of innocence before their god or of mercy, just get saved and stay that way or hell. But maybe they have carved out a different belief for themselves now that this hits so close to home. No idea. It worries me, but I would never ask despite her annoying attempts to proselytize me.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Faith-manor]

13 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I really hate the wheat/tares analogy someone mentioned previously. As I have mentioned elsewhere, we have been shunned for having left—we are viewed as a weed that shriveled in the sun or who has been plucked out. 
 

Ironically we viewed ourselves as having left an unhealthy situation (wheat, not tare).

In reality, labeling just devolves into tribalism and none of that is healthy. If good change can happen in a church, it will come from a diversity of opinions and not a bunch of likeminded people realizing that they should change themselves.

I do agree with this. As a "used to be a Christian but not anymore" person, I now can see on the outside that the tribalism the othering of those that disagree, is really bad, possibly the worst it has been in a long time. But I also cannot tell to sure. Maybe it has always been this bad, it is just a matter that folks are much more willing to talk about their experiences openly and in social media which makes it appear worse. Maybe it had always been this way. I know when we were still "in" and left a church over a major issue (financial flim flam that no one seemed to care about despite acknowledging it was happening) in 2005, we left quietly and didn't talk about it much with anyone. Now, I feel much more at ease sharing our experiences. Of course that could also be because dh and the kids are "Dones" and I am a "None" now. No longer seeing or desiring a place for us within organized Christianity might make us and others like us more prone to open sharing about it because we are not going to seek another place at the table so to speak. Hard to know!

[J-rap]

On 5/10/2021 at 2:11 PM, Pam in CT said:

 

 

Re Greg Boyle -- I first heard him interviewed on NPR, then read one of his early books, then actually met IRL a young man whose life trajectory he bent and ultimately transformed.  Then, years later, a dear IRL friend of mine (Republican and Catholic, FWIW with respect to the topics of this thread), told me that her church-based book group was reading Barking To the Choir, which I then read myself and thereafter pitched successfully to my synagogue-based book group.

I'm finally getting around to this...  That book wasn't familiar to me, so I looked it up and discovered we're actually talking about two different people!  My pastor is Greg "Boyd."  Very close-sounding names!  So of course I looked up Greg Boyle  😊.  I'm certain Greg Boyd would be a fan of Greg Boyle!  So cool what Greg Boyle is doing with Homeboy Industries.  Greg Boyd, my pastor, seems to have a very similar heart and mindset;  he pours a lot of his energy into loving and working with the homeless, vulnerable youth and young adults, and adults with intellectual disabilities.  

Anyway, I've just ordered a used version of Barking to the Choir and look forward to reading it, so thanks!

[Pam in CT]

1 hour ago, J-rap said:

I'm finally getting around to this...  That book wasn't familiar to me, so I looked it up and discovered we're actually talking about two different people!  My pastor is Greg "Boyd."  Very close-sounding names!  So of course I looked up Greg Boyle  😊.  I'm certain Greg Boyd would be a fan of Greg Boyle!  So cool what Greg Boyle is doing with Homeboy Industries.  Greg Boyd, my pastor, seems to have a very similar heart and mindset;  he pours a lot of his energy into loving and working with the homeless, vulnerable youth and young adults, and adults with intellectual disabilities.  

Anyway, I've just ordered a used version of Barking to the Choir and look forward to reading it, so thanks!

OMG I'm such a space cadet.  Sorry!!!  You'll enjoy the book. And BOYLE has written a gazillion of them...

[J-rap]

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

OMG I'm such a space cadet.  Sorry!!!  You'll enjoy the book. And BOYLE has written a gazillion of them...

Boyd has written so many books too!  🤣

[Xahm]

On 5/10/2021 at 10:18 PM, MercyA said:

Just curious--these churches don't believe in an age of accountability? They think small children would be sent to hell for behaving like children? 

Trigger, miscarriage

 

 

 

The youth pastor (Calvinist) when I was a teen bragged to us about how he was so honest that when a woman who was sobbing about having just lost another child through miscarriage asked him about seeing her baby in heaven, he told her she wouldn't because her baby was in hell. No surprise, that family, who had been visiting for several months, left the church soon after. Interestingly, I didn't get to know that family well, but I think they were influenced by some of the same thoughts as the Duggars. No birth control, home school the kids, kids always replied to adults with polite but canned responses, homemade conservative clothes that made all the kids match.

[Pam in CT]

re delusions of "honesty"

50 minutes ago, Xahm said:

Trigger, miscarriage

 

 

 

The youth pastor (Calvinist) when I was a teen bragged to us about how he was so honest that when a woman who was sobbing about having just lost another child through miscarriage asked him about seeing her baby in heaven, he told her she wouldn't because her baby was in hell. No surprise, that family, who had been visiting for several months, left the church soon after. Interestingly, I didn't get to know that family well, but I think they were influenced by some of the same thoughts as the Duggars. No birth control, home school the kids, kids always replied to adults with polite but canned responses, homemade conservative clothes that made all the kids match.

That is appalling.

And has nothing, nothing whatsoever, not one single thing, to do with honesty.

[Katy]

6 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re delusions of "honesty"

That is appalling.

And has nothing, nothing whatsoever, not one single thing, to do with honesty.

I think the point was they don’t believe in an age of accountability?

[Pam in CT]

7 minutes ago, Katy said:

I think the point was they don’t believe in an age of accountability?

Sure. I get that.

Having *attained* the age of accountability, surely there is a more compassionate response to a sobbing disconsolate mother in the throes of trauma that a *trained pastor* can dig deep enough to find.

A response that is not dishonest, or contrary to church teaching, but that still manages to meet a person in distress with humanity.

If he's unable to find that answer, he's in the wrong vocation IMNSHO.