How Did the Stay-at-Home Daughters/Courtship Movement Work Out?

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, HeartString said:

That would be an interesting turn for sure, this is the "marriage is between one woman and one man" crowd.  It would take eating some serious crow, or probably just "forgetting" that they had fervently held that stance.  When they predicted the slippery slope I doubt they envisioned themselves as the ones sliding down it.  

True. I could kind of totally see it though because of the political entanglements. They see themselves losing political power, not a large enough voting block, and the dominion is not going to happen because not enough babies, not enough men committed to the ideal to keep marrying off the daughters. The answer? For the "righteous" men to have more than one wife to impregnate.

I wish I thought it was far out and implausible, but yikes, after what I have sent his year, I have to at least admit it could be a slim possibility or worse. The Pearls and their followers already do not believe in secular marriage laws, and their married kids do not have marriage licenses. So the legal aspect may not be an issue because they will declare them married in the eyes of god. If they keep it to 18 and older, they skirt consent laws. Doable. Hopefully not probable, but doable.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

True. I could kind of totally see it though because of the political entanglements. They see themselves losing political power, not a large enough voting block, and the dominion is not going to happen because not enough babies, not enough men committed to the ideal to keep marrying off the daughters. The answer? For the "righteous" men to have more than one wife to impregnate.

I wish I thought it was far out and implausible, but yikes, after what I have sent his year, I have to at least admit it could be a slim possibility or worse. The Pearls and their followers already do not believe in secular marriage laws, and their married kids do not have marriage licenses. So the legal aspect may not be an issue because they will declare them married in the eyes of god. If they keep it to 18 and older, they skirt consent laws. Doable. Hopefully not probable, but doable.

Yeah, it'll have to be a "spiritual" marriage.  I don't think they'll win in the legal area because the late 20th and early 21st centuries have focused on government marriage equality with regards to all the contract law in marriage.  Creating more than 2 legal spouses would create a marriage hierarchy that would be a nightmare for spouses making decisions for an incapacitated spouse, inheritance, community property, child support, alimony, at death or divorce.  The purpose of legally recognizing marriages with a government issued marriage license is having one document settling those things by default unless the spouses have created an array of other documents that recognize non-traditional agreements about those issues.

[BlsdMama]

38 minutes ago, SKL said:

It doesn't sound much different from what happens in average America these days.  Anyone compare statistics?

I would agree it's necessary to make sure girls have a good academic education in order to be ready for anything.  In addition to life skills including martial arts.  🙂

To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

It’s amazing to me that they WANT that much control over their kids. It seems like a lot of moving pieces to constantly manipulate. To me, teens and adults are so much more enjoyable than littles because you get to really see and enjoy the uniqueness of the individual. I’m boggled by the attraction of cookie cutter houses, cookie cutter kids, and cookie cutter lives?! Kids who are passionate, engaged, kids who are, “Take a deep breath... Now JUMP!” are the most fun - why suck the beauty of individuality out of them? 
 

You know I was really broken over college or no college for our oldest when she started high school at home. I felt internal pressure (primarily inspired by the sources I was reading and watching, but that was my responsibility, we didn’t attend a church) to diminish the value of education and prepare her for one of two paths - either starting at home or higher education. I prayed and prayed over it. And I really felt, and still do feel, that I was heavily compelled that it was my responsibility to EQUIP her for LIFE, but that the Holy Spirit would guide HER, not her through ME. It wasn’t about me. I made MY choices. After that, I realized, assuming her and her husband opted to embrace similar choices, she needed a strong education. There’sa heckuva lot more to homeschooling than the bare minimum of the three Rs. She needed a strong foundation - the ability to think critically, read for information, speak boldly, engage in intellectual conversations, present a well supported argument... they’re prep for college, yes, but they are foundational for LIFE. And I think that’s where I began to move away from a lot of the extreme fundamentalist movement... I realized they were inhibiting their kids’ choices and education to manipulate the outcome without recognizing their kids were “born persons,” not property  or chess pieces. 
 

i think Christians come under the lens  because they espouse a lifestyle of shunning sin and, because, well, HUMAN, cannot hope to live up to what their goal is, they come across as hypocrites. I think the garden variety is one thing... obviously we’re seeing the big, deep, dark skeletons coming out now, but I think some folks choose to root out the list of Who Fell Short of their intended goals as an effort to debunk conservative Christianity. Look, it’s good to run the race well, aim high, love God, pour out. It’s no surprise all of us fall short in our lifetimes. Sometimes it means they were fake trees with fake fruit, no root, and put on a good show. But I think, optimistically, that most conservative Christians have deep roots (allusion to John 15) the fruit is genuine and their striving and their goals are very real... they fall short. 
 

You know I’ve really wanted to chronicle my life, my diagnosis, and where my hope lies. I think that the comfort I’ve received from God has real value that others might find encouraging because it’s not some PollyAnna BS. But at the same time, in current culture, it’s like painting a giant target on your head. I was a horrible teen, my daughter was pregnant before she got married, I believe wholeheartedly in homeschooling, but likely will need to quit soon, I have a kid diagnosed with ODD and on meds for ADHD - all fodder for, “How’s your lifestyle working for ya?” For those who want to be critical. The answer is, “Pretty damn good. I know I’m about to die a horrific death and, still, I have daily encouragement that my life is valuable and worth living.” But look at my list. Look at every Christian ever - wildly imperfect. It doesn’t mean they departed necessarily from main tenets of faith, though they may have departed from religious rules... and exposing something as “good” doesn’t mean we can always live up to it. But this is the general good.... not a defense of narcisstic asses who like little kids, teen nannies, and manipulate their daughters into waiting on them their whole lives. 👀 

[KungFuPanda]

49 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm worried that branches of American Christianity who see the decline in members, and particularly people of the old school Botkin 200 years nonsense and Duggar types will start thinking polygamy Old Testament style is the solution.  There's a disproportionate number of women in most branches of Christianity right now.  Based on what I'm reading here about SAHDs, it's a bigger issue in those circles.

I don't think even people like the Duggers can out-breed this decline.  They can HAVE 20 kids, but they can't make them ALL practice their religion.  The numbers are dwindling.  I think the brainwashing is too hard to sustain in a connected world.  It was much easier to control people back when information was easier to control. The brainwashing will work on some number of their people, but not enough to make them grow. My theory is that they'll continue to dwindle, while bleeding their true believers dry, until they die a slow death (death = statistical insignificance) and become a weird historical footnote . . . at least until history repeats and some other wackadoo man starts the next fertility cult. 

[KungFuPanda]

I'm gonna be honest.  I thought a Stay at Home Daughter was a daughter designated to stay home, never marry, and work her parent's household for the rest of their days.  I have no idea where I got this idea, but I'm pretty sure it was something I read on this board a good decade ago.  Or I misunderstood something, made it up, and never did ANY research to clarify.  Who knows????????

[HS Mom in NC]

11 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I don't think even people like the Duggers can out-breed this decline.  They can HAVE 20 kids, but they can't make them ALL practice their religion.  The numbers are dwindling.  I think the brainwashing is too hard to sustain in a connected world.  It was much easier to control people back when information was easier to control. The brainwashing will work on some number of their people, but not enough to make them grow. My theory is that they'll continue to dwindle, while bleeding their true believers dry, until they die a slow death (death = statistical insignificance) and become a weird historical footnote . . . at least until history repeats and some other wackadoo man starts the next fertility cult. 

Yeah, no one could out-breed the decline because you can't really control children to the degree necessary to make it happen.  Another factor is economics. The challenges facing Gen X and younger are increasingly discouraging marriage and children or at least discouraging larger families.  Pockets of true believers exist; I'm from AZ where the majority of polygamists still operate in poverty.  They've been around long enough to see the genetic consequences with higher numbers of  special needs babies, many of whom die shortly after birth if they don't miscarry-a brutal reduction of numbers.  Those are usually already established enclaves with local control of law enforcement, but some of that has been reduced since the arrest of FLDS leaders. But since this crowd is prone to isolating and avoiding legal documentation like birth certificates and social security cards, they never really seem to go away entirely because they keep their daughters and sometimes their sons stuck at home.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm gonna be honest.  I thought a Stay at Home Daughter was a daughter designated to stay home, never marry, and work her parent's household for the rest of their days.  I have no idea where I got this idea, but I'm pretty sure it was something I read on this board a good decade ago.  Or I misunderstood something, made it up, and never did ANY research to clarify.  Who knows????????

That's part of the mix for some of them. They usually need a large number of kids to make both happen-lots of adult children having babies and a spare adult daughter for ailing parents.

[teachermom2834]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

 

To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

Yeah it is a hard lesson for most parents. I'll admit while I never sought the level of control we are discussing in this thread I did expect to have more influence than I ended up having. LOL. While it was a little surprising and disappointing at first it is also quite freeing. I have enough worry about trying to run my own life and I don't want responsibility for their grown up choices.

In my world the biggest proponents of this sort of thing didn't yet have teens. Or the oldest was a teen that was either very compliant or quite sneaky. I saw it soften and fall apart as kids got older and it just wasn't working. 

When the anti-dating stuff was very strong there were private Christian schools here that stopped holding proms or would hold "banquets" the kids would get dressed up for but they weren't supposed to pair up. I always wished my kids would choose to wait to date but I did point out to people that our grandmothers went to dances with boys. And they did more dating of multiple people. One boy one Friday and another the next. Our grandmothers who no one was accusing of promiscuity went to dances and danced with multiple boys. The idea that kids would date or dance together or pair up was hardly a new "kids today being poisoned by secular culture" thing. 

Just ugh. Anytime I expressed any skepticism of the courtship model people would assume I was handing out birth control and getting my kids a hotel room or something. That could not have been more off base. There was just no grey area or middle ground on this stuff. I'm so glad three of my four kids are past this stage. 

[Emba]

I only knew of one family that practiced the courtship model. I became good friends with the oldest daughter after she was married, and later friends with one of her sisters (after her marriage as well). They were homeschooled in a large family in the 90’s. Both now have slightly larger families that statistically average. Both are happily married (and I know them well enough to be sure of that) and have never worked outside of the home, though they’re involved in MLM businesses.

i do know they weren’t Arranged marriages in any way. The oldest met her husband at church, but he was neither homeschooled nor brought up to the courtship model. She explained it to him, I think, and then he got permission from her dad or whatever. The youngest sister ended up marrying her sister’s husband’s brother. They meet at the wedding.

i do know that the family had chosen courtship for their children, but did not espouse it as the one true way. I was explicitly told this by my friend when I discussed incorporating some elements of courtship into my dating of now-DH. She wanted to make sure I didn’t feel pressured to do it because they had.

i was influenced by Joshua Harris and his first book. It was after several pretty disastrous dating the “normal” way experiences. I never went in to it while you, but I believe that really considering whether I could date someone with the intent of marriage led to avoiding a couple of potential relationships that would have ended poorly. Dating not just by having fun but by serving  together and focusing on group activities did benefit us, I think. Most controversially, our first kiss was on our wedding day, and i don’t regret that at all.

 But it wasn’t strict courtship since we met online, I was the one who first messaged him, and I didn’t tell my parents  about it until we were about to meet in person. My dad had no say  in my choosing DH, and DH didn’t “ask permission “ at any point, though he did go to my parents before proposing and make sure that didn’t have any serious reservations about it.  I was also in my mid twenties after living away from my parent’s home in a variety of situations, including overseas. I worked at a bank.
 

raised by college educated parents, college educated myself, I do have serious reservations about the stay at home daughter movement. I don’t think it adequately prepares girls to deal with the modern world and the chance that they won’t be able to marry as soon as they expect or Mary ended up unexpectedly single again for whatever reason. My friends are interesting people, and good  conversationalists, but once in awhile their lack of education shows, and in certain situations it could hold them back, plus I feel it might keep them from making wise  choices . I’m pretty sure both are anti-vax.

i feel like there are merits to not dating the common way in our culture, but what the courtship movement can  lead to when strictly followed and when the ideas and words of mere humans are given almost the weight of scripture is saddening.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Emba

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, Emba said:

I only knew of one family that practiced the courtship model. I became good friends with the oldest daughter after she was married, and later friends with one of her sisters (after her marriage as well). They were homeschooled in a large family in the 90’s. Both now have slightly larger families that statistically average. Both are happily married (and I know them well enough to be sure of that) and have never worked outside of the home, though they’re involved in MLM businesses.

i do know they weren’t Arranged marriages in any way. The oldest met her husband at church, but he was neither homeschooled nor brought up to the courtship model. She explained it to him, I think, and then he got permission from her dad or whatever. The youngest sister ended up marrying her sister’s husband’s brother. They meet at the wedding.

i do know that the family had chosen courtship for their children, but did not espouse it as the one true way. I was explicitly told this by my friend when I discussed incorporating some elements of courtship into my dating of now-DH. She wanted to make sure I didn’t feel pressured to do it because they had.

i was influenced by Joshua Harris and his first book. It was after several pretty disastrous dating the “normal” way experiences. I never went in to it while you, but I believe that really considering whether I could date someone with the intent of marriage led to avoiding a couple of potential relationships that would have ended poorly. Dating not just by having fun but by serving  together and focusing on group activities did benefit us, I think. Most controversially, our first kiss was on our wedding day, and i don’t regret that at all.

 But it wasn’t strict courtship since we met online, I was the one who first messaged him, and I didn’t tell my parents  about it until we were about to meet in person. My dad had no say  in my choosing DH, and DH didn’t “ask permission “ at any point, though he did go to my parents before proposing and make sure that didn’t have any serious reservations about it.  I was also in my mid twenties after living away from my parent’s home in a variety of situations, including overseas. I worked at a bank.
 

raised by college educated parents, college educated myself, I do have serious reservations about the stay at home daughter movement. I don’t think it adequately prepares girls to deal with the modern world and the chance that they won’t be able to marry as soon as they expect or Mary ended up unexpectedly single again for whatever reason. My friends are interesting people, and good  conversationalists, but once in awhile their lack of education shows, and in certain situations it could hold them back, plus I feel it might keep them from making wise  choices . I’m pretty sure both are anti-vax.

i feel like there are merits to not dating the common way in our culture, but what the courtship movement can  lead to when strictly followed and when the ideas and words of mere humans are given almost the weight of scripture is saddening.

Very balanced viewpoint.  Thank you.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's part of the mix for some of them. They usually need a large number of kids to make both happen-lots of adult children having babies and a spare adult daughter for ailing parents.

Yes, if there are multiple daughters often the eldest one is the most restricted to prevent leaving so that she is there as a defects parent and to care for aging parents. Take a look at Jane's age. 31. Total spinsterhood from the perspective of the dominion list movement so if she ever did marry, assuming JB and Michelle would allow a man that close, it would likely be to one who has no interest in a huge family. Look how much younger her sister were when they were courted, and in several episodes of the show, it was clear that the young ones saw Jana and Jill as more mommy than Michelle. Locally, the pastor of the ATI church admitted to the neighbor that he has a problem because since his wife suffers debilitating post partum depression after each pregnancy, the kids are used to being patented by their 14 year old daughter and the babies and toddlers inevitably call her mama not his wife. Still doesn't seem to occur to him that the depths of post partum depression she suffers might be the cue to stop getting her pregnant. DUH!!!! 🤔

The "ideal" is several sons, but at least two if not three daughters, and then one would hopefully never leave while the others would be marrying young.

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's part of the mix for some of them. They usually need a large number of kids to make both happen-lots of adult children having babies and a spare adult daughter for ailing parents.

I'm really glad I didn't make this up.  If I ever start writing the conspiracy theories myself I'm gonna count on the hive to have an intervention..

[HS Mom in NC]

22 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm really glad I didn't make this up.  If I ever start writing the conspiracy theories myself I'm gonna count on the hive to have an intervention..

OK, people, we're all on KFPanda watch.

[JumpyTheFrog]

A few years ago I began thinking that once same-sex marriage was legalized there would be a push for legal polygamy. Over the last year I have seen an increasing number of articles portraying it as a regular, everyday sort of choice. None of these articles have been from conservative or religious publications. They've all been from places like The Guardian. People are starting to say things like, "I don't have a monogamous orientation." The advice columnists write answers that make it sound like the (train-wreck, IMO) family problems they have from their polyamory are normal problems to have.

[Happy2BaMom]

30 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

A few years ago I began thinking that once same-sex marriage was legalized there would be a push for legal polygamy. Over the last year I have seen an increasing number of articles portraying it as a regular, everyday sort of choice. None of these articles have been from conservative or religious publications. They've all been from places like The Guardian. People are starting to say things like, "I don't have a monogamous orientation." The advice columnists write answers that make it sound like the (train-wreck, IMO) family problems they have from their polyamory are normal problems to have.

Do you have links to these articles? I’m able to find one editorial at Politico (from 2015) and one recent big article at the New Yorker but nothing else other than a lot of media about Utah and polygamy and how they just downgraded that from a felony (or something like that). I’m genuinely curious.

 

[ktgrok]

17 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

That is so sad. Orthodoxy, prior to my total break with Christianity, was the last faith system I considered, and much was appealing for sure. That is very disturbing. However, I correspond a bit with an Orthodox woman, and she has been expressing these same concerns as are many of her Orthodox friends.

It seems to be a really insidious, seeping wound spreading from its origins to the appendages.

It is happening in other groups, as well. As we've talked about, in RC circles, particularly homeschooling one. And even in Anglican/Episcopal circles, although that sort of handles itself given that there are enough conservative splinter groups for those of that mindset that I don't ahve to deal with them, lol. (NOT saying those in the ACNA or other groups are all super conservative fundies! Just that the super conservative fundies in the Episcopal Church tend to migrate over there, leaving most Episcopal Diocese free of it. My diocese is one of the most conservative in the country, and still not going to have much of that whole "out holy each other" stuff going on.)

Actually, what I see in Orthodox/RC/Anglican circles is sort of like scrupulosity, but in group form. What would in decades past be considered scrupulosity, and something to overcome, is promoted and encouraged in some circles. 

6 hours ago, SKL said:

🙂

To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

Yup, once they were toddlers I was pretty disabused of that notion. Certainly once puberty hit! 

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

It’s amazing to me that they WANT that much control over their kids. It seems like a lot of moving pieces to constantly manipulate. To me, teens and adults are so much more enjoyable than littles because you get to really see and enjoy the uniqueness of the individual. I’m boggled by the attraction of cookie cutter houses, cookie cutter kids, and cookie cutter lives?! Kids who are passionate, engaged, kids who are, “Take a deep breath... Now JUMP!” are the most fun - why suck the beauty of individuality out of them? 
 

You know I was really broken over college or no college for our oldest when she started high school at home. I felt internal pressure (primarily inspired by the sources I was reading and watching, but that was my responsibility, we didn’t attend a church) to diminish the value of education and prepare her for one of two paths - either starting at home or higher education. I prayed and prayed over it. And I really felt, and still do feel, that I was heavily compelled that it was my responsibility to EQUIP her for LIFE, but that the Holy Spirit would guide HER, not her through ME. It wasn’t about me. I made MY choices. After that, I realized, assuming her and her husband opted to embrace similar choices, she needed a strong education. There’sa heckuva lot more to homeschooling than the bare minimum of the three Rs. She needed a strong foundation - the ability to think critically, read for information, speak boldly, engage in intellectual conversations, present a well supported argument... they’re prep for college, yes, but they are foundational for LIFE. And I think that’s where I began to move away from a lot of the extreme fundamentalist movement... I realized they were inhibiting their kids’ choices and education to manipulate the outcome without recognizing their kids were “born persons,” not property  or chess pieces. 
 

i think Christians come under the lens  because they espouse a lifestyle of shunning sin and, because, well, HUMAN, cannot hope to live up to what their goal is, they come across as hypocrites. I think the garden variety is one thing... obviously we’re seeing the big, deep, dark skeletons coming out now, but I think some folks choose to root out the list of Who Fell Short of their intended goals as an effort to debunk conservative Christianity. Look, it’s good to run the race well, aim high, love God, pour out. It’s no surprise all of us fall short in our lifetimes. Sometimes it means they were fake trees with fake fruit, no root, and put on a good show. But I think, optimistically, that most conservative Christians have deep roots (allusion to John 15) the fruit is genuine and their striving and their goals are very real... they fall short. 
 

You know I’ve really wanted to chronicle my life, my diagnosis, and where my hope lies. I think that the comfort I’ve received from God has real value that others might find encouraging because it’s not some PollyAnna BS. But at the same time, in current culture, it’s like painting a giant target on your head. I was a horrible teen, my daughter was pregnant before she got married, I believe wholeheartedly in homeschooling, but likely will need to quit soon, I have a kid diagnosed with ODD and on meds for ADHD - all fodder for, “How’s your lifestyle working for ya?” For those who want to be critical. The answer is, “Pretty damn good. I know I’m about to die a horrific death and, still, I have daily encouragement that my life is valuable and worth living.” But look at my list. Look at every Christian ever - wildly imperfect. It doesn’t mean they departed necessarily from main tenets of faith, though they may have departed from religious rules... and exposing something as “good” doesn’t mean we can always live up to it. But this is the general good.... not a defense of narcisstic asses who like little kids, teen nannies, and manipulate their daughters into waiting on them their whole lives. 👀 

Amen to all of it. And I'd love to hear/read about your journey and perspective. We don't always agree, but I always find a lot of wisdom and sense a lot of love in your posts. 

As for none of us having perfect families - that's the truth. IT's how we handle it, and grow, and find the blessings in the surprises, that matters. God is the perfect parent, and look how Adam and Eve behaved!  If he couldn't keep them in line, I have no illusions that I can control my kids lives! (and then there are Mary and Joseph who lost Jesus...seriously....we need to realize that parenting is not a science!)

1 hour ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

A few years ago I began thinking that once same-sex marriage was legalized there would be a push for legal polygamy. Over the last year I have seen an increasing number of articles portraying it as a regular, everyday sort of choice. None of these articles have been from conservative or religious publications. They've all been from places like The Guardian. People are starting to say things like, "I don't have a monogamous orientation." The advice columnists write answers that make it sound like the (train-wreck, IMO) family problems they have from their polyamory are normal problems to have.

Without going into details, my ex many decades ago wanted to explore this. I read a lot about it. We had a friend interested in "joining" us. This did not happen. Mostly because I realized very quickly that you don't fix a dysfunctional relationship by adding MORE drama and personalities! And that people drawn to it were often very dysfunctional themselves. It just adds more problems. I know people SAY it's great....but did deeper, watch what happens, and it is DRAMA. 

[Ottakee]

8 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

.

You know I’ve really wanted to chronicle my life, my diagnosis, and where my hope lies. I think that the comfort I’ve received from God has real value that others might find encouraging because it’s not some PollyAnna BS. But at the same time, in current culture, it’s like painting a giant target on your head. I was a horrible teen, my daughter was pregnant before she got married, I believe wholeheartedly in homeschooling, but likely will need to quit soon, I have a kid diagnosed with ODD and on meds for ADHD - all fodder for, “How’s your lifestyle working for ya?” For those who want to be critical. The answer is, “Pretty damn good. I know I’m about to die a horrific death and, still, I have daily encouragement that my life is valuable and worth living.” But look at my list. Look at every Christian ever - wildly imperfect. It doesn’t mean they departed necessarily from main tenets of faith, though they may have departed from religious rules... and exposing something as “good” doesn’t mean we can always live up to it. But this is the general good.... not a defense of narcisstic asses who like little kids, teen nannies, and manipulate their daughters into waiting on them their whole lives. 👀 

Yours is EXACTLY the kind of story people need to hear.   That we all have issues, messed lives, challenges, etc but still GOD is faithful and we have hope.

That is one reason I started my blog OUR STORY GOES ON to let others know that despite all the yuckiness, there is still hope.

[LMD]

5 hours ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

A few years ago I began thinking that once same-sex marriage was legalized there would be a push for legal polygamy. Over the last year I have seen an increasing number of articles portraying it as a regular, everyday sort of choice. None of these articles have been from conservative or religious publications. They've all been from places like The Guardian. People are starting to say things like, "I don't have a monogamous orientation." The advice columnists write answers that make it sound like the (train-wreck, IMO) family problems they have from their polyamory are normal problems to have.

I have seen this too. Articles about 'throuples' etc. Plenty of 'poly' in people's bios.

[Guest]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:07 PM, JumpyTheFrog said:

For these families, did the boys end up dating and marrying earlier than their courtship-only sisters?

Although I don't go to FreeJinger often, based on what I've seen, it seems like many of the daughters raised this way are ending up divorced by 30-35. A somewhat common theme is they then go through their "teenage rebellion" years by cutting or dying their hair, etc. I can't remember what else I read about one or two of them doing, but it stuck me as appropriate behavior for a high-schooler, but a little sad for a woman in her late 20s-early 30s. I'm not talking about hair dye being sad. I mean the entire package seemed like they were going back to complete a stage that got skipped over, if that makes any sense.

That does make sense. I feel like I have seen that happen, too. 

[Terabith]

My goddaughter was in a polyamorous relationship for about ten years.  In their case, it was a combination of a relationship thing and a practical thing, where one person did the child care.  

[Matryoshka]

10 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

WRT polygamy outside of fundie circles, I've wondered if people are choosing to live like this for practical reasons. I've joked before that I would like to have a stay at home wife. Say you have a family with one man and two women - one of the women could work and the other woman could care for the children of both women. It sounds practical to me. 

Uh, that just sounds like the age-old story of the husband boning the maid or nanny, hello Arnold Schwarzenegger and Robin Williams and many more - but with the buy-in of the wife rather than a messy divorce?  And the nanny/maid now gets to be called 'wife #2' rather than getting a salary?  Hmmm...

[katilac]

On 5/9/2021 at 10:55 PM, Spryte said:

 How exactly were these girls in the SAHD movement supposed to meet potential partners?  I am not following how that was intended to happen.  Boys from church, maybe?  It seems like they had a very small pool of prospects? I’m not really following how it was imagined that they would meet young men to court them, if they were mostly at home and these were not arranged or semi-arranged marriages. 

The explanation I've seen most often is that God has a perfect plan for their life. If they are meant to be married, He will put the right person in their path, no matter how isolated they are. 

[Spryte]

12 minutes ago, katilac said:

The explanation I've seen most often is that God has a perfect plan for their life. If they are meant to be married, He will put the right person in their path, no matter how isolated they are. 

Thanks, that makes sense.  Didn’t occur to me, but I can see that it applies.

[mom@shiloh]

On 5/9/2021 at 1:57 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Sometimes I think that the word "courtship" can mean slightly different things.  The people I know who "courted" (their word for it) really were dating with marriage in mind - ie. not dating just to date.  It wasn't an arranged marriage in any sense of the word.  And while one of these couples asked us (as older relatives who were asked because the actual parents were not available) to meet with them and to counsel them, it really wasn't much different than normal pre-marital counseling.  But the people I know who used this word did not belong to any particular church or movement. 

Yes -- thanks for this. We don't use the word courtship per se, but I hope to help my children avoid the indiscriminate type of dating that I and my friends experienced in high school. At the time it was alternately fun and heartbreaking and didn't aid in my development. My parents were largely absent from my dating experiences.  I find much of the "courtship" ideas creepy and for my own kids hope to strike a balance. I prefer the term intentional dating.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

12 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

WRT polygamy outside of fundie circles, I've wondered if people are choosing to live like this for practical reasons. I've joked before that I would like to have a stay at home wife. Say you have a family with one man and two women - one of the women could work and the other woman could care for the children of both women. It sounds practical to me. 

A friend of mine is an IBCLC lactation consultant.  She was doing hotline duty and got a call from a woman asking for help with leaking.  Standard first question is, "How old is your baby?" Then the lady explained that she lives in a polygamous commune and is one of the women who nurses all the babies-meaning nursing babies she didn't give birth to or legally adopt and induce lactation for among her own.  IBCLC said, "My training has failed to prepare me for your answer.  Let me tell you what we recommend for moms of multiples..."

Edited May 11, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, katilac said:

The explanation I've seen most often is that God has a perfect plan for their life. If they are meant to be married, He will put the right person in their path, no matter how isolated they are. 

Yeah, and there are some Christians who aren't into the arranged marriage/extreme courtship culture who buy into this too.  I try to counter it when it comes up by asking, "And if God wants you to regularly help the poor He'll put a poor person in your path instead of you actively finding a way to help poor people? If God wants you to attend corporate worship He'll put someone in your path that will tell you about their church instead of you actively looking for a church?  And if God wants you to study Scripture He'll put a Bible in your path instead of you going out and intentionally getting a Bible? And if God wants you to work He'll put someone in your path who will give you a job instead of you actively pursuing employment?"

Edited May 11, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[HS Mom in NC]

Oops.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Yeah, and there are some Christians who aren't into the arranged marriage/extreme courtship culture who buy into this too.  I try to counter it when it comes up by asking, "And if God wants you to regularly help the poor He'll put a poor person in your path instead of you actively finding a way to help poor people? If God wants you to attend corporate worship He'll put someone in your path that will tell you about their church instead of you actively looking for a church?  And if God wants you to study Scripture He'll put a Bible in your path instead of you going out and intentionally getting a Bible? And if God wants you to work He'll put someone in your path who will give you a job instead of you actively pursuing employment?"

Exactly. Many of these kinds of people believe strongly in missionaries. 

"Do you believe in missions work?"

"Yes."

"Then if guess, if God wanted those people to meet him, he would've had them born in a place where someone would share about him, so stop supporting missionaries."

[Sk8ermaiden]

On 5/10/2021 at 12:00 PM, Faith-manor said:

Yes, if there are multiple daughters often the eldest one is the most restricted to prevent leaving so that she is there as a defects parent and to care for aging parents. Take a look at Jane's age. 31. Total spinsterhood from the perspective of the dominion list movement so if she ever did marry, assuming JB and Michelle would allow a man that close, it would likely be to one who has no interest in a huge family. Look how much younger her sister were when they were courted, and in several episodes of the show, it was clear that the young ones saw Jana and Jill as more mommy than Michelle. Locally, the pastor of the ATI church admitted to the neighbor that he has a problem because since his wife suffers debilitating post partum depression after each pregnancy, the kids are used to being patented by their 14 year old daughter and the babies and toddlers inevitably call her mama not his wife. Still doesn't seem to occur to him that the depths of post partum depression she suffers might be the cue to stop getting her pregnant. DUH!!!! 🤔

The "ideal" is several sons, but at least two if not three daughters, and then one would hopefully never leave while the others would be marrying young.

Yes, she's commonly called Cinder-Jana online, but some have speculated over the years that maybe she is the smartest sister, avoiding going straight from one life of drudgery to another. She has said on record that suitors had come calling and she had turned them down. She's courting now - many expect an announcement soon. (I can't remember if it's been announced officially or not, but it's pretty obvious at this point and unlike every other rumor, the Duggar camp has not denied it.)

As soon as Michelle had a new baby, the former youngest was passed to one of the 4 oldest sisters. They were each the heads of their own little families within the family, taking care of all their assigned siblings from teeth brushing and bathing to putting to bed and educating. It was discussed extensively in the show, and when you watch you can see that the little kids clearly reach for their sister/mom when they're upset or need something, not Michelle. This was another issue, that when it came up here, some would act like it was totally normal, especially in large families. It is normal for big siblings to HELP OUT. It is not normal for big siblings to completely take the place of your parent. 

[happypamama]

14 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

Yes, she's commonly called Cinder-Jana online, but some have speculated over the years that maybe she is the smartest sister, avoiding going straight from one life of drudgery to another. She has said on record that suitors had come calling and she had turned them down. She's courting now - many expect an announcement soon. (I can't remember if it's been announced officially or not, but it's pretty obvious at this point and unlike every other rumor, the Duggar camp has not denied it.)

As soon as Michelle had a new baby, the former youngest was passed to one of the 4 oldest sisters. They were each the heads of their own little families within the family, taking care of all their assigned siblings from teeth brushing and bathing to putting to bed and educating. It was discussed extensively in the show, and when you watch you can see that the little kids clearly reach for their sister/mom when they're upset or need something, not Michelle. This was another issue, that when it came up here, some would act like it was totally normal, especially in large families. It is normal for big siblings to HELP OUT. It is not normal for big siblings to completely take the place of your parent. 

This.  I have thought about this a lot, since I have a large family (by most people's standards, not by Duggar standards), and since my oldest is the only girl, and since we have a large gap (almost 17 years between oldest and youngest).  I do expect my kids to help out, but no, I do not expect them to raise the younger ones.  In fact, I guard my littlest ones kind of jealously.  My 2yo is very close to his older siblings, especially big sister, but I am his mom.  He is very attached to me.  This morning, he tripped and bumped his lip, as happens with toddlers; 12yo was closest and scooped him up, but he still wanted me.  Yes, I've asked them to babysit or pitch in or to supervise the littles occasionally, but they do not raise the littles.  (And in times when we 've needed them to help out more, it's typically because there's a crisis of some sort, not the usual day to day.)

[skywards]

On 5/10/2021 at 10:11 PM, katilac said:

The explanation I've seen most often is that God has a perfect plan for their life. If they are meant to be married, He will put the right person in their path, no matter how isolated they are. 

Weird, but this actually happened to me. I had the sudden urge for months to move across the country to a specific spot I'd never been too. Specific spot was just as much a tiny, relatively isolated town as where I came from. Sounded horribly crazy to me but I wound up doing it eventually anyways, and I met my person like literally 36 hours later. It was kind of insane, honestly. No crazy fundie parents involved though 🙂 

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, skywards said:

Weird, but this actually happened to me. I had the sudden urge for months to move across the country to a specific spot I'd never been too. Specific spot was just as much a tiny, relatively isolated town as where I came from. Sounded horribly crazy to me but I wound up doing it eventually anyways, and I met my person like literally 36 hours later. It was kind of insane, honestly. No crazy fundie parents involved though 🙂 

It was your choice. That is the big difference. In fundie families, the adult daughter is not given a choice. If she wants autonomy, she has to run away from her family and face shunning often not having anything more than the shirt on her back. The system is designed to oppress them enough to prevent them from finding the resources to leave. 

[skywards]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It was your choice. That is the big difference. In fundie families, the adult daughter is not given a choice. If she wants autonomy, she has to run away from her family and face shunning often not having anything more than the shirt on her back. The system is designed to oppress them enough to prevent them from finding the resources to leave. 

Oh sure, hence my last sentence. Just sometimes it kind of DOES work out that way. I grew up extremely isolated, not because my parents were thoroughly crazy but because there was simply no people left in that area. I did more or less run away and get shunned though 😄

[Janeway]

It did not work out well for Anna Duggar.

[KungFuPanda]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:51 PM, Sk8ermaiden said:

Yes, she's commonly called Cinder-Jana online, but some have speculated over the years that maybe she is the smartest sister, avoiding going straight from one life of drudgery to another. She has said on record that suitors had come calling and she had turned them down. She's courting now - many expect an announcement soon. (I can't remember if it's been announced officially or not, but it's pretty obvious at this point and unlike every other rumor, the Duggar camp has not denied it.)

As soon as Michelle had a new baby, the former youngest was passed to one of the 4 oldest sisters. They were each the heads of their own little families within the family, taking care of all their assigned siblings from teeth brushing and bathing to putting to bed and educating. It was discussed extensively in the show, and when you watch you can see that the little kids clearly reach for their sister/mom when they're upset or need something, not Michelle. This was another issue, that when it came up here, some would act like it was totally normal, especially in large families. It is normal for big siblings to HELP OUT. It is not normal for big siblings to completely take the place of your parent. 

I've read the theory that she stayed home to protect the little kids from Josh.  She kind of had to parent them since her parents were unable to do so.  This would also explain why a 30 year old woman would choose to room with little girls.

[Sk8ermaiden]

When they built the new house they also specifically put the girls room where you had to walk through the parents' room to get to it. There was a reason for that. 😪

[katilac]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:32 PM, Sk8ermaiden said:

When they built the new house they also specifically put the girls room where you had to walk through the parents' room to get to it. There was a reason for that. 😪

If memory serves, they were open about the general whys for this way before the molestation story broke, that boys' bedrooms should always be far from girls' bedroom, for modesty and temptation reasons. It was presented like a sensible precaution every family should take, which had a lot of people shaking their heads at the time. 

[freesia]

40 minutes ago, katilac said:

If memory serves, they were open about the general whys for this way before the molestation story broke, that boys' bedrooms should always be far from girls' bedroom, for modesty and temptation reasons. It was presented like a sensible precaution every family should take, which had a lot of people shaking their heads at the time. 

I remember thinking it was absurd. One thing I’ve learned about parenting teens is to not judge other parents decisions because you just don’t know the whole story and so often there is more to the story than you know. It’s so sad.