How Did the Stay-at-Home Daughters/Courtship Movement Work Out?

[JumpyTheFrog]

We spent five years at a patriarchal church that promoted the Pearls, Vision Forum, Doug Wilson, etc (not really ATI, although the Duggars were admired). Every family homeschooled and they were generally planning on the stay-at-home daughters bit with courtship. There were about 20-30 families during our years there. (We have been gone for eleven years.)

As far as I know, all the parents grew up in normal households, some Christian, some not. The oldest kids they raised are about 5-8 years younger than me, so they are now in their early 30s. As far as I know, the courtship-only approach hasn't worked very well. I know of two marriages between church families. Another marriage came about after a few adults schemed to have one's coworkers meet a young woman at the church. One of the first boys to marry went off to college and found his girlfriend the regular way, by dating. One of the first girls to marry had a wedding with a week's notice after getting pregnant in high school. There are three women in their 30s who started trying to date in the last few years. 

Interestingly, despite the whole "contraception is evil!" belief that most people had, neither of the two married kids of one of the elders is a parent yet, despite being married for 2-4 years. Also, it seems that the oldest daughters generally gave up on being stay-at-home in their late 20s. Their parents mistakenly thought they'd generally be married by 20-22. Instead several of them spent years with low-end jobs instead of building a skill stack that would make them employable with decent pay should Mr. Right not appear quickly. The one that has done the best career-wise came from a lower-income family that really needed her to have a decent job to help pay medical bills.

It's ironic that these parents followed all sorts of teachings with the belief it would help their children marry (a good person) on younger side. Instead, it seems these teachings may have led to later marriages for the older daughters, or even the chance they won't be able to find anyone to marry at all. (Considering that after a certain age it's harder to find a decent single never-married man.)

[Ottakee]

I have seen that as well.  I know if a few families that were more along those lines.....and for 2 the daughters are unmarried, still living at home in late 20s.   Another one had a botched courtship and then met a guy and is living with him and his mother and working very low pay part time jobs.

I would want a girl to have as much education as possible because even if she does marry younger and is a stay at home mom (as was my life for 25 years) she might find herself single and needing to support her family.  For me it was the arrest of my husband and divorce, for another friend of mine she was suddenly widowed at age 42.

[JumpyTheFrog]

2 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

I know if a few families that were more along those lines.....and for 2 the daughters are unmarried, still living at home in late 20s.   

For these families, did the boys end up dating and marrying earlier than their courtship-only sisters?

Although I don't go to FreeJinger often, based on what I've seen, it seems like many of the daughters raised this way are ending up divorced by 30-35. A somewhat common theme is they then go through their "teenage rebellion" years by cutting or dying their hair, etc. I can't remember what else I read about one or two of them doing, but it stuck me as appropriate behavior for a high-schooler, but a little sad for a woman in her late 20s-early 30s. I'm not talking about hair dye being sad. I mean the entire package seemed like they were going back to complete a stage that got skipped over, if that makes any sense.

[Faith-manor]

It hasn't worked out well here. In the really large families, they really hang on to the oldest kids because they need the help. We aren't seeing much courting going on. But, among the few that have done the courtship only, marry very young, the young families are living in poverty, and no one looks at all happy. I have to wonder if they will give up the religion in favor of educations in order to get better jobs and divorces.

One thing the fundies didn't stop to consider is that since the boys have total agency, unlike the girls, they can choose not to court, not to marry, and not to stay home. They have a little bit more education and have often done customer facing in their father's businesses or job shadowed which means more exposure outside the cult which seems to lead to leaving their families and not looking back. It has left a bunch of young ladies coming up whose families may be looking to arrange a marriage and won't find an acceptable boy within the cult. 

 

[Moonhawk]

29 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

For these families, did the boys end up dating and marrying earlier than their courtship-only sisters?

Although I don't go to FreeJinger often, based on what I've seen, it seems like many of the daughters raised this way are ending up divorced by 30-35. A somewhat common theme is they then go through their "teenage rebellion" years by cutting or dying their hair, etc. I can't remember what else I read about one or two of them doing, but it stuck me as appropriate behavior for a high-schooler, but a little sad for a woman in her late 20s-early 30s. I'm not talking about hair dye being sad. I mean the entire package seemed like they were going back to complete a stage that got skipped over, if that makes any sense.

(Agreeing, Yes and..) I think this is common for some personalities that grew up in an abusive household. Some kids rebel strongly trying to escape a bad situation. Some kids in the same situation never feel "safe enough" to show rebellion. They never had enough room to explore anything because their survival paths were engrained to very specific behaviors, that they wouldn't consciously try to break because the possible consequences.

After they leave, whether marriage or just getting out, its like the development clock starts to tick. For some it can take years to feel secure enough to bush the boundaries set in place by parents. Some never get there. Half the time I wonder if some mid-life crises are doubled by a delayed teenage rebellion + midlife reevaluations.

In the cases of these women, their family of origin may not be necessarily what we call 'abuse', but oppression has the same overall effect.

[Faith-manor]

18 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

(Agreeing, Yes and..) I think this is common for some personalities that grew up in an abusive household. Some kids rebel strongly trying to escape a bad situation. Some kids in the same situation never feel "safe enough" to show rebellion. They never had enough room to explore anything because their survival paths were engrained to very specific behaviors, that they wouldn't consciously try to break because the possible consequences.

After they leave, whether marriage or just getting out, its like the development clock starts to tick. For some it can take years to feel secure enough to bush the boundaries set in place by parents. Some never get there. Half the time I wonder if some mid-life crises are doubled by a delayed teenage rebellion + midlife reevaluations.

In the cases of these women, their family of origin may not be necessarily what we call 'abuse', but oppression has the same overall effect.

I have seem this too.

[PeppermintPattie]

I've noticed in some conservative homeschooling families that the boys tend to marry young, but the girls either don't marry, or they marry late. I read once that this phenomenon is due to young men being driven somewhat by their hormones to marry, but the girls have led rather boring lives - homeschooling and caring for younger siblings without jobs or further education, so they're rather boring to be around, and young men don't find them interesting or challenging enough.

I can point out families that this seems to be true for, but I don't know if the reasons are accurate. 

[easypeasy]

My husband and I were just mulling over this very thing fairly recently! We also had a large cohort of people around us who were raising their kids with the stay-at-home daughter/courtship mindset. All were our kids' ages up to about 6 years older. It's been fascinating.

One large family married off their oldest daughter via the courtship route. She was on the older side of the group and this was held as the perfect example of courtship "Working." That dd is still married with two young children so far.

That same family had four daughters immediately following that one - plus one son (and younger children as well). The next-oldest daughter is ~26 years now and has never dated or courted anyone. She still lives at home and works random jobs. Next-oldest daughter is ~24 years old and same scenario. The son is ~22. Has been "courting" his girlfriend for 4 years now? (HOW does that work?) No engagement so far. It's the oddest thing. The next daughter is 20 and has not courted anyone.

The family doesn't attend church (they homechurch) so I'm not sure where the girls are supposed to meet these young men who are supposed to be courting them?

Family #2 preached courting from the highest hilltops. The mother made some nasty public comments about my own kids (who were *gasp* dating) that got back to me. 🤪 Their oldest son "courted" one girl but they broke up. Then started "courting" another girl - knocked her up (lazy courtship restrictions? lol). They broke up (nasty breakup) and now he's splitting time with his ex and their young son (he's about 3 years old now). The family has since given up on courtship and their next kids (a daughter and three more sons) have started regular old dating.

Another family "courted" their two daughters, who were married right out of high school. Both were divorced within 2 years of marriage. Both are now remarried to people of their own choosing and their personalities have changed dramatically. I think there was more going on at home for both of these girls, though. Marriage was an escape and once they were in the marriage, they were free to leave it.

Another large family - first son courted and married a very sweet girl and have had 5 children so far. They are homesteading, homeschooling, etc. Makes their family proud. The next son turned out to be gay. The family *shockingly and happily* became very open minded about this and have embraced him and his partner. He's talked to the parents about the restrictions they'd placed on him when he was younger and they've loosened up for the next children. Two more have gotten married  after a sort of hybrid courtship/dating model (the parents basically set the kids up, but the parents didn't chaperone their every move. Each of the kids courted/dated probably 2 or 3 people before finding their match and settling down.

Last family had what is probably the perfect/pure courtship experience. Only son. Started courting a girl from his homeschool co-op/church after he was out of high school for two years (she was a senior at the time). He became a licensed electrician, bought his first house, became engaged exactly one year after their courtship began, and were married about 3 months later. They're on year two.

It's been interesting because the success rate of the courting families is pretty much about the same as the dating families as far as successful relationships / pre-marital kids / etc. So it sure seems like a lot of work to me.

[easypeasy]

54 minutes ago, PeppermintPattie said:

I've noticed in some conservative homeschooling families that the boys tend to marry young, but the girls either don't marry, or they marry late. I read once that this phenomenon is due to young men being driven somewhat by their hormones to marry, but the girls have led rather boring lives - homeschooling and caring for younger siblings without jobs or further education, so they're rather boring to be around, and young men don't find them interesting or challenging enough.

I can point out families that this seems to be true for, but I don't know if the reasons are accurate. 

Agreed. The girls in the families we know are just so.... bland. Their brothers are allowed to go out and have adventures, interests that don't revolve around the home, careers, education, etc. And the girls just stay at home, being meek and mild. If they aren't in a scenario to MEET young men who WANT a meek and mild wife - they aren't ever going to be able to get married! Because they sure aren't going out to look for those men themselves, yk?

I honestly feel like the dads in these scenarios should take on a lot of that responsibility. If you're going to be a patriarch, then it's your job to find matches for your daughter. If SHE isn't allowed, then it's YOUR job to give her that life you've promised her (a husband to provide for her and babies, babies, babies!). Because the dads we know just sit back, relishing having so many daughters to "help mom" or to "take care of the house" without fulfilling THEIR part of the bargain. It makes me mad, honestly, to see these young women just ... languishing ... after being so hopeful for a husband at a young age and starting their own families. 😕

3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This seems to have fallen out of favor in my circles as the kids get older. The people I know who talk about courtship only have younger kids. 

One thing I observed is that the single women who tried finding husbands in the "right way" by marrying within the church stayed single. I knew a woman when I was single who wanted to be a stay at home mother. She refused to date anyone who wasn't as religious as her. It's about 15 years later and she's still single and probably late 40s now so motherhood is probably very unlikely. The sad thing is that she was encouraged in this by all of the people in the church. I noticed that the married couples in the church had married after normal dating and then come into the church together so decided that their advice was worthless. 

I've seen this pattern too. I honestly do hate to see ANY woman who has wanted nothing more than to have a family and babies not get to have that opportunity. It hurts my heart. If I'd have never met my husband, I probably would have just gone on with life, never thinking a bit about babies (until I was older, probably, lol) But some girls are just either wired that way or programmed from a young age to have that desire and it's heartwrenching to watch them slowly realize that it's not going to happen. Especially when they're been so careful to do things the "right way" as they've been taught and to watch other young women NOT do things "the right way" and still get husbands and babies before they do.

[frogger]

I don't really understand why there was a redefinition of courtship. Previous generations courted but it looked an awful lot like dating honestly.

If I tell my children not to go steady, what is that? I figure, until you are married or engaged at least and made a commitment to someone you should be free to keep your eyes open for the right person and you shouldn't have to "break up" with them.

I get the impression this courtship was very different and probably had little to do with courting in the old fashioned sense but they found an old folksy word to attach to their new way of controlling their children? 

[Catwoman]

It’s so interesting to read this thread, because I have never known any families who did the courtship thing — not even a friend of a friend or anything. All of the families I have ever known have allowed their teens to date, some at earlier ages than others, but the parents were never involved in setting them up with potential partners, and the word “courtship” was never used at all. Early marriage wasn’t encouraged, either.

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

It’s so interesting to read this thread, because I have never known any families who did the courtship thing — not even a friend of a friend or anything. All of the families I have ever known have allowed their teens to date, some at earlier ages than others, but the parents were never involved in setting them up with potential partners, and the word “courtship” was never used at all. Early marriage wasn’t encouraged, either.

Me, neither.

Of the many stories I’ve seen over the years, the arranged/courted/etc. ones that say and seem the happiest are the ones that come from a long-standing and large culture of operating this way.  It wasn’t a new idea whipped up within a tiny, semi-isolated group of people surrounded on all sides (literally or figuratively) by a drastically different mainstream culture.
Even within many of those larger cultures, there’s been a lot of adapting customs and more choice given in recent years.

But when you plop a comparatively small handful of kids into a brand new(ish) concept with a very small number of non-related potential “matches” and they see their peers operating SO differently, there are bound to be issues.

[Eos]

Q

Edited February 6, 2023 by Eos

[HomeAgain]

47 minutes ago, Harpymom said:

  But yes, maybe having a long-standing culture makes it work. 

 

I think you hit on something, but I'm not so sure I would call it the long standing culture, as just a different understanding.

One thing in modern conservative stay-at-home daughters movement is the holding up of Proverbs 31, and a complete misrepresentation of it.  They want an idea of a woman who will submit, be meek, support her husband at all things...a wife of noble character is worth far above rubies, but that's as far as the reading goes.

What is missing is the autonomy and leadership shown in Proverbs 31.  The virtuous woman has her own life that supports the family: she is a landowner, she makes and sells goods, she trades profitably, she is educated (or wise) and teaches.  She is industrious and, most importantly, the focus in Proverbs 31 is not about how many children she produces, but how she lives as a full member of society and her family.

These ideas are not compatible with a meek, sheltered woman who has been ordered about all her life and is then handed over to her husband so he can make decisions.

[Dmmetler]

I grew up in an area with a lot of Mennonites, from the conservative to the more liberal, and I can think of one family that had a courtship model. The oldest daughter married out of high school, she and her husband went to college, he became a pastor, she became an elementary school teacher. She stayed home for a few years when she had younger children, but went back to work when child 3 entered K-the youngest is graduating high school this year. The middle daughter who was extremely musically gifted went to college, worked for Christian Light Publications for quite awhile, got a grad degree in religious ed, and ended up marrying a long time friend who now teaches at the Mennonite college they both attended, right by the CLP building-in her mid 40's. No children-they basically got married right as their parents were starting to require more care. The third was not academically talented at all, and basically did an internship during high school on how to be a mother and wife, with the mother of her fiance', who was similarly not academically inclined. They married when she was 17 and he had just finished high school, have many children, he works with his dad making furniture, she bakes for a couple of local restaurants with his mom. They seem happy. Of their children, several have graduated high school and gone onto college, one married early and the couple is following their parents footsteps, the others are younger. 

 

 

[teachermom2834]

While I haven’t been around people I would categorize as as hard core as the Duggar’s, a lighter version of the concepts was certainly popular in homeschooling circles when my now 23 yo was a tween/teen. In fact, when he was about 12 another mom at our homeschool co-op gave me a copy of I Kissed Dating Goodbye and told me my son needed it because he was so flirtatious. Another mom, a few years later, told me that my boys were very handsome and charming and that she is praying for early marriage for them (I was taken aback but the implication I took was that she was praying for early marriage so they didn’t fall into sin). 
 

We had speakers come to our homeschool group and speak about purity and teenagers and the answer to all of these issues was always courtship. 
 

I never wanted my teens to date but it didn’t feel like something that could be so easily fixed as the courtship crowd claimed. What I did find was that a majority, if not all, of these courtship kids were flirting, texting, trying to sneak around and their parents had no idea. The number of times a parent would tell me their daughter didn’t text boys and I knew that my kid’s phone was blowing up with texts from their daughter. Ugh. All was just not what it seemed. 
 

One of my boys got wrapped up with a girl who, while not espousing courtship exactly, was definitely pushing for an early match/early marriage. It was a big mess involving all the parents and I resented getting pulled into it. 
 

I guess I really have nothing to add other than the people I saw trying to implement it never got very far because their kids became teenagers and real people and didn’t cooperate. You have to have buy in from the kids and I didn’t see that. 
 

As a mom of now young adult children that all dated I really don’t want to be involved in their relationships. Courtship sounds as painful to the adults as to the kids. That’s a lot of responsibility on the parents and I really don’t want to be so instrumental in choosing their mates. Like, that sounds like torture to me. I really have no interest in dating ever again! 

Edited May 9, 2021 by teachermom2834

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I don’t think you can compare the Amish/Old Order Mennonite groups to the SAHD movement.  The SAHD movement focused on daughters staying home to serve their father’s interests and help their mothers. If you ever want to see something that hasn’t aged well, the Botkin’s Return of the Daughters is still available on Youtube(or was last I knew).  Considering that of the girls they featured espousing courtship and SAHD, one was sexually assaulted by Doug Phillips, one now writes about the fallacies of courtship and SAHD, and another, who’s wedding was featured as the pinnacle of what a dutiful SAHD could achieve, is now divorced.  They drone on and on about daughters serving their father’s and his interests.  The Amish and Mennonite are honestly not so family focused. In fact, keeping your children home to serve you and your interests and needs would probably be considered prideful and wrong.  Unmarried women in the community often hold jobs, assist others as Mauts(paid nannies and housekeepers), help the elderly, and in general serve their communities until marriage.  They also date, but it’s kept quiet and secret until about two weeks before the wedding.  Anything else is drawing attention to yourself and prideful. The lavish(and often ridiculous) betrothal ceremonies would be abhorrent.

Personally, everyone I know who was really into parent led courtship and the stay at home daughter movement has given up on it.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sometimes I think that the word "courtship" can mean slightly different things.  The people I know who "courted" (their word for it) really were dating with marriage in mind - ie. not dating just to date.  It wasn't an arranged marriage in any sense of the word.  And while one of these couples asked us (as older relatives who were asked because the actual parents were not available) to meet with them and to counsel them, it really wasn't much different than normal pre-marital counseling.  But the people I know who used this word did not belong to any particular church or movement. 

[historically accurate]

I only know of one family IRL who does the courtship model. So far, 3 kids in, it seems to be working. 

Oldest 2 girls married; one has a child. They both seem happy. I wouldn't have known it was courtship as we're not real close to the family, except I saw a FB picture of the family playing games with a caption explaining it was daughter's meeting of future husband that night. 

Oldest son seems happily married as well. I think he has a couple of kids.

I believe they have mainly "family/group" dating - where couple hangs out with some or all the family members most (all?) of the time. I don't know how much say the girls have in the choice of husband; my guess is they can easily say no to a certain choice. 

[SquirrellyMama]

16 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Oldest 2 girls married; one has a child. They both seem happy. I wouldn't have known it was courtship as we're not real close to the family, except I saw a FB picture of the family playing games with a caption explaining it was daughter's meeting of future husband that night. 

So, the parents arranged this relationship? Personally, I don't want that responsibility for my kids. Yikes! What if you choose wrong?

Kelly

[historically accurate]

1 minute ago, SquirrellyMama said:

So, the parents arranged this relationship? Personally, I don't want that responsibility for my kids. Yikes! What if you choose wrong?

Kelly

I assume Mom & Dad chose, but honestly, I don't know how involved the kids are in the process. It could be that this is someone that daughter wanted to court and Mom & Dad "screened" him and this was just the start of official courtship, but I seem to think Mom used the word "meeting" because it struck me that Daughter might not know the guy. But it's been a couple of years as they are married now.

I definitely don't want any of that responsibility either. It was hard enough to be dating when I was dating, I don't want to do anything close to that decision-making again.

[Danae]

When I first heard the word “courting” being revived it seemed to be distinguishing dating-with-marriage-as-the-goal from dating-just-for-fun.  The idea that “courting” is instead of dating came later and is a pretty drastic redefinition of the word.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/jonathan-lindvall-and-child-marriage-the-maranatha-story/amp/
 

one of the more disturbing courtship stories, but one that was held up in the homeschool community in the late 1990s/early 2000s as ideal.  I remember several of my mom’s homeschool magazines talking about it in rapt detail. 
 

My parents were approached about a betrothal when I was 15.  It was someone I actually had a crush on and we were really good friends. I suspect now that the teenage boy had told his parents he liked me and they wanted to avoid temptation and marry us off.  They literally wanted us to marry as soon as I turned 16. 
My parents politely declined.  His parents never liked me after that.  

Edited May 9, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[JumpyTheFrog]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Sometimes I think that the word "courtship" can mean slightly different things.

In the Vision Forum/stay-at-home daughter movement, courtship means the boy approaches the girl's dad to get his permission before anything happens. She might not even know the boy's name or that he is interested. The dad is encouraged to grill the boy with a long list of questions about his beliefs. If he passes the dad's inspection, then the daughter is told. If she says yes, the courtship begins. They are allowed to get to know each other, but are generally expected to be chaperoned. 

We knew one man that wasn't having any luck finding a wife. Apparently he wasn't raised a Christian so had previously lost his virginity. This automatically disqualified him in many people (dad's? eyes). He wound up looking for a wife on an overseas website. He promised to marry the woman before they ever met in person. I think he thought he was betrothed.

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/jonathan-lindvall-and-child-marriage-the-maranatha-story/amp/
 

one of the more disturbing courtship stories, but one that was held up in the homeschool community in the late 1990s/early 2000s as ideal.  I remember several of my mom’s homeschool magazines talking about it in rapt detail. 
 

My parents were approached about a betrothal when I was 15.  It was someone I actually had a crush on and we were really good friends. I suspect now that the teenage boy had told his parents he liked me and they wanted to avoid temptation and marry us off.  They literally wanted us to marry as soon as I turned 16. 
My parents politely declined.  His parents never liked me after that.  

I remember this story. I also had a similar experience to yours. A 28 year old new pastor approached my dad about courting me at 15.5 because "She plays the piano so well and she would make a great addition to my ministry". My dad had moderated his fundiness at that point and was a little squigged out by the guy thinking of me as an addition to his career. However, he did ask me what I thought at which point my mother got a look in her eye that might be called " murderous" and said if the guy came around, he might not like what happened to him, and then told my father that he could hit the road if he ever got any ideas like that in his head again. And that was the end of any interference at all in my romantic life. I dated whom I wanted to date, and left for college dorms before I turned 17 thus ending all parental involvement in my life since I did a lot of touring with music groups in the summer between semesters.

I do like what the author of the article said, if the tables were turned and it wad a 27 year old woman wanting to become betrothed to a 13 year old boy, how would fundamentalist Christians react? Not well I suspect. Not well at all. I know I would have been at the police department in a nano second if any 27 year old had a romantic interest in my 13 year old no matter the gender. I would not have tolerated it at 17 and 27 because they still are not peers, and there is an imbalance in power at that age. 27 and 37? Well, okay go for it!

My grandmother married at 16 to a 29 year old who had been attracted to her since she was 10. No joke. My grandfather died before I was born and I know of zero stories linking him to any other pedophilic tendencies, but I have to say that I think my great grandparents were absolutely horrible people for not telling him to hit the road. And because of illnesses, she was delayed in school so she never attended high school. She was a young widow with three kids, no education, no marketable skills, and no family willing to help. So she worked jobs that barely kept a roof over their heads and food on the table, then remarried the first chap who offered, and he turned out to be a violent person that she had to be rescued from. My other grandmother was forced into an arranged marriage at 16, and he was 27. It was really a very bad marriage though he was not abusive to her. Still, they ended up hating each other pretty quickly because he just assumed she would fall in line and be a quiet, mousey wifey poo. That didn't pan out! 

So you can imagine that given the family history, I am pretty anti- courtship, anti- young marriage, and especially when the age gap is big.

[kbutton]

This was my introduction to courtship, though I dated: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Friends-Life-Extraordinary-Marriage/dp/155661943X My pastor also talked a bit about courtship, but no one took him terribly seriously. I think he meant dating toward marriage vs. dating just to date, but I have blocked out a lot of what the man said (he had a lot of things to say that did some damage, IMO).

I had read some of the author's fiction, and other friends/family read series that I didn't. I know at least one series of his kind of introduced his courtship ideas (and it was historical fiction, so the context was different), but he and his writing partner split before he did that. I figured she must've thought he was kooky, lol! 

[Faith-manor]

It should probably be noted that of of the biggest and earliest proponents of fundamentalist courtship was Joshua Harris has decried his book, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", asked for it to be pulled by the publisher, and is now divorced with both he and his wife leaving Christianity. This kind of thing seems to do a lot of harm to a lot of people. It isn't like traditional dating is perfect, but at least choice is there, and one can figure out what works for him or herself vs. having it dictated.

[HS Mom in NC]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Sometimes I think that the word "courtship" can mean slightly different things.  The people I know who "courted" (their word for it) really were dating with marriage in mind - ie. not dating just to date.  It wasn't an arranged marriage in any sense of the word.  And while one of these couples asked us (as older relatives who were asked because the actual parents were not available) to meet with them and to counsel them, it really wasn't much different than normal pre-marital counseling.  But the people I know who used this word did not belong to any particular church or movement. 

Dating with marriage in mind was the type of courtship we were first introduced to in the early 2000s when we started homeschooling.  We were all for it, but understood the kids had to buy in or it wouldn't work.  We told our daughters to think long term, not in the moment.  As they got to know someone they were interested in they should consider if that person's attitudes, behaviors, and goals were something they were interested in living with long term if they married and as a co-parent if they had kids with them.  As time went on, as soon they realized they weren't compatible with the person, then best thing to do would be to wish them well and move on. 

We also always framed it as, "If you get married.." not, "When you get married." and "If you have kids.." not, "When you have kids." and "Whether you go to college or get skilled labor training and certification..." 

Oldest didn't think that way while dating for a while and middle is an old soul by nature and did think that way.  They each picked good guys and are happy  2 and 3 years in after dating for several. Oldest met spouse through mutual friends (none of whom were homeschooled) and middle met spouse on her sports team when they were mid-teens.  They married young (oldest and her husband were 22, middle was 20 and her husband was 22.) Their spouses were not homeschooled.

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

It should probably be noted that of of the biggest and earliest proponents of fundamentalist courtship was Joshua Harris has decried his book, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", asked for it to be pulled by the publisher, and is now divorced with both he and his wife leaving Christianity. This kind of thing seems to do a lot of harm to a lot of people. It isn't like traditional dating is perfect, but at least choice is there, and one can figure out what works for him or herself vs. having it dictated.

Josh's father, Gregg Harris, was a proponent before him. And there were a bunch of things that happened behind the scene with Gregg and others that surely had an effect on Josh. The Teaching Home magazine once published an article that was pretty creepy, about how one couple pushed courtship on their daughter.

One of the things that bugged me was that proponents of courtship maintained that it was the "biblical model." Well, no, in the Bible we see arranged marriages, which I guess, in a way, was actually what these people were doing.

At any rate, Josh's story is a tragedy. His father's heart must be broken.

[momdelights]

I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding concerning this topic. Our idea of courtship was that our children would have our advice and we could "vet" possible courters, but our girls always had the first and last say. We encouraged "courting," but not as a means to keep our daughters under our thumbs, but as dating with a focus on marriage rather than just messing around.

We did meet a couple at a retreat who also homeschooled their children and were wondering where their son would find a wife that had some of the same values. Our daughter (21 at the time) was there and met them and was interested in at least corresponding with their son. Fast forward 17 years later and they are married with four children and are very happy. People continually accuse us of having arranged their marriage, but it was not that way at all. In fact, a friend of the family (whose daughter was originally interested in the son) tried to get my husband fired from his job because of it! 

And, there is that accusation that "stay at home daughters" is from hell itself. Could it be that it can be of benefit to daughters? One of ours used the cheap rent with mom and dad to attend college and then save up so she could move to Korea, where she met her husband (a Korean national) and is very happy--although she did not marry until she was 26. She returned home just before she married so that her dad could "vet" him--this was her idea, not ours. 

There were others who did "their own thing," some brought their potential spouses home to meet with us, some did not.

Our greatest struggle? Nosy people who would look into our lives and judge what we were doing based on second and third-hand information.  

Moral of the story: I think it would please God greatly if we would leave people alone and quit trying to figure them out and put them into neat little boxes. We tend to evaluate people based on our narrow understanding of life, don't we? Wouldn't it seem awful if families such as the Duggar's were on here belittling all of the smaller families who did not court, etc. and pointing out how many divorces and moral failures there were among them? That would be completely out of character though, wouldn't it? Perhaps it is because they have lived with so much graciousness in the midst of fiery trials that the conviction of their lives causes us to point out their foibles? 

Food for thought.

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, Ellie said:

Josh's father, Gregg Harris, was a proponent before him. And there were a bunch of things that happened behind the scene with Gregg and others that surely had an effect on Josh. The Teaching Home magazine once published an article that was pretty creepy, about how one couple pushed courtship on their daughter.

One of the things that bugged me was that proponents of courtship maintained that it was the "biblical model." Well, no, in the Bible we see arranged marriages, which I guess, in a way, was actually what these people were doing.

At any rate, Josh's story is a tragedy. His father's heart must be broken.

And a tragedy for his wife too.  But the fact that he has issued some pretty heartfelt apologies for what he preached to parents throughput the years, not just the book which was early on, it makes me think he very much regrets most of his beliefs. I don't know how much of that is due to his dad, and how much is due to his own choices.

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, momdelights said:

I think there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding concerning this topic. Our idea of courtship was that our children would have our advice and we could "vet" possible courters, but our girls always had the first and last say. We encouraged "courting," but not as a means to keep our daughters under our thumbs, but as dating with a focus on marriage rather than just messing around.

We did meet a couple at a retreat who also homeschooled their children and were wondering where their son would find a wife that had some of the same values. Our daughter (21 at the time) was there and met them and was interested in at least corresponding with their son. Fast forward 17 years later and they are married with four children and are very happy. People continually accuse us of having arranged their marriage, but it was not that way at all. In fact, a friend of the family (whose daughter was originally interested in the son) tried to get my husband fired from his job because of it! 

And, there is that accusation that "stay at home daughters" is from hell itself. Could it be that it can be of benefit to daughters? One of ours used the cheap rent with mom and dad to attend college and then save up so she could move to Korea, where she met her husband (a Korean national) and is very happy--although she did not marry until she was 26. She returned home just before she married so that her dad could "vet" him--this was her idea, not ours. 

There were others who did "their own thing," some brought their potential spouses home to meet with us, some did not.

Our greatest struggle? Nosy people who would look into our lives and judge what we were doing based on second and third-hand information.  

Moral of the story: I think it would please God greatly if we would leave people alone and quit trying to figure them out and put them into neat little boxes. We tend to evaluate people based on our narrow understanding of life, don't we? Wouldn't it seem awful if families such as the Duggar's were on here belittling all of the smaller families who did not court, etc. and pointing out how many divorces and moral failures there were among them? That would be completely out of character though, wouldn't it? Perhaps it is because they have lived with so much graciousness in the midst of fiery trials that the conviction of their lives causes us to point out their foibles? 

Food for thought.

You should read the entire thread. This is part of a greater discussion of how extremist fundamentalist beliefs affect people within the context of the hiding of a predator, a particularly twisted predator, within a fundamentalist cult. You may not unlike it, but the Duggar religion and lifestyle does meet the criteria of a cult, and they did hide their son out and sweep his perversions under the rug. In this cult, which has been referenced over and over specifically in this thread along with two other cults, the approach to courtship puts the young females in damaging positions. If it does not apply to you, then great. Some of us are survivors of this crap and will not be silenced.

Interesting that as a newbie, your first thought was to admonish or attempt to shame a discussion board.

[momdelights]

Neither will those of us who have been falsely accused. It was not my intention to shame, but to bring some clarity by offering a differing perspective. The shame is the intrenched victimization that does not allow the truth in to bring healing. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Interesting angle on courting 

I grew up JW. We didn't date, rather courted. There was nothing arranged by parents. Rather mostly you had to be chaperoned, so for me this meant getting my parents to invide now DH to tea A LOT. 

It also meant when we went out for a walk or something I had to bring along some of my siblings. 

 

Looking back I can see Why my mother in particular insisted on chaperones so much. She had a shotgun marriage at 16 because she was pregnant with me and was widowed at 20 with 3 kids. She didn't want that to happen to her daughters. 

My parents abandoned JW religion and 6 of 7 of my siblings lived with their partners without getting married for many years

 

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, momdelights said:

Neither will those of us who have been falsely accused. It was not my intention to shame, but to bring some clarity by offering a differing perspective. The shame is the intrenched victimization that does not allow the truth in to bring healing. 

Then maybe this is too triggering for you to read. I am sorry if it is, but the discussion is actually quite worthy since these cults still exist and keep promulgating their ideas. As for the Duggars, had JimBob and Michelle not wanted to live a life of scrutiny in the public eye, they should not have sold out their family's privacy to TLC. If the elder Duggar victims had wanted privacy, they could have chosen again not to be on t.v. in the sequel show which came out after the sex abuse was brought to light. They chose to keep airing their private lives for profit.

It is worth discussing all of this because so much sex abuse occurs in patriarchal systems and is covered up. Abuse can happen anywhere, but it seems to follow very heavily in patriarchal religious systems that subjugate the rights of women and children, and in fact extreme forms of the courtship model are implicated in this because they appear to revolve around other very damaging beliefs.

It is also worth noting that this is not a Christian or evangelical discussion forum so an appeal to what god would find pleasing is kind of lost on some folks, and yet others would also say this is very pleasing o their deity because religious systems that create abuse victims are NOT pleasing to god.

Gently, I have no desire to silence you. But as a survivor of the ATI religion, I will also not be quieted based on an appeal to what pleases god or what might be embarrassing to others who follow such beliefs. Silence is what gets us to a world where a brother can prey on four sisters and a babysitter, receive no legal punishment or rehabilitation much less appropriate therapy, the victims do not get trauma therapy, it gets swept under the rug until that same pervert ends up on Ashley Madison seeking out affairs and prostitutes, again is not placed in a proper program, and is now charged with heinous child sex abuse crimes in the form of videos of child torture that have made seasoned police officers vomit. While painful, silence is not the way forward if we want to understand, remediate, and change our culture. Any cults' hands in the matter are fair game, and as part of the offshoot, examining the extreme side of the courtship model is part and parcel of that. If this really upsets you, please do not read in this thread or any of the others of similar topic. We have a lot to discuss on the forum and not all of it is by any means of this nature. You will find fellowship and support in a variety of other threads.

[YaelAldrich]

Orthodox Jewish families often do arranged dating and marriages.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shidduch

 

[Eos]

50 minutes ago, momdelights said:

That would be completely out of character though, wouldn't it?

No, because their chosen group literally says this all the time.  

[Sk8ermaiden]

2 hours ago, momdelights said:

 

And, there is that accusation that "stay at home daughters" is from hell itself. Could it be that it can be of benefit to daughters? One of ours used the cheap rent with mom and dad to attend college and then save up so she could move to Korea, where she met her husband (a Korean national) and is very happy--although she did not marry until she was 26. She returned home just before she married so that her dad could "vet" him--this was her idea, not ours. 

 

I'm not going to comment on the rest, but a female young adult who was free to attend college, work, and move to Korea is not in any way a part of the "stay at home daughters" movement. The very definition of it is that a woman has to live at home, under the headship and authority of her father, until she marries her husband and moves in his home under his authority. She should spend her time at home furthering her knowledge of how to run a home and helping her father in his pursuits. Higher education and working are extremely discouraged and living abroad would be absolutely forbidden. Many of the girls who were the poster children and mouthpieces of this movement were not even allowed to leave their house without a "buddy." The idea being they'd be less likely to give into the many temptations they might encounter if their chaperone was with them. It sounds like you're defending these horrible practices because you are seeing them through the lens of what your family did when they are not the same. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This is trendy within conservative Orthodox Christian circles but I've never known anyone to actually do it. The people who talk about it have kids who are too young to date. 

I just googled and came across a podcast from early 2020 from an Orthodox priest who has become very popular in conservative Orthodox circles, Fr. Josiah Trenham. I listened to it. 🤮 He uses the word "courtship." He seems to be speaking to men instead of women. He says that you must get permission from the girl's father before dating her and before marrying her. He said that it's an explicit requirement of the Orthodox Church that the father consent to the marriage. He's wrong about the last one.

These bad ideas are seeping into Orthodoxy and will cause the same problems as they did in Evangelicalism. 

That is so sad. Orthodoxy, prior to my total break with Christianity, was the last faith system I considered, and much was appealing for sure. That is very disturbing. However, I correspond a bit with an Orthodox woman, and she has been expressing these same concerns as are many of her Orthodox friends.

It seems to be a really insidious, seeping wound spreading from its origins to the appendages.

[Spryte]

These are such eye-opening threads.  Thank you to those of you who survived and experienced this for sharing here.  

I have never known anyone who followed this model, didn’t even know it existed. (I also had never heard of the Duggars, other than here, and have never seen their show.)

Am I the only one for whom the word “courting” calls to mind, weirdly, The Witch of Blackbird Pond?  Ha!

I do have some JW friends who only allow dating with intent to marry, and require chaperones.  And some OJ family that leans toward the same (a step down from arranged marriage).  And, of course, some friends and family who joke that their kids won’t be allowed to date or drive till they are 35, but definite joking there.

This board gives quite an education.

How exactly were these girls in the SAHD movement supposed to meet potential partners?  I am not following how that was intended to happen.  Boys from church, maybe?  It seems like they had a very small pool of prospects? I’m not really following how it was imagined that they would meet young men to court them, if they were mostly at home and these were not arranged or semi-arranged marriages. And, would there have been a plan for their parents to continue their financial support, should they not marry, since they apparently had little education?  (The family members I mentioned above are part of a very large, very active, international community and there is a lot of opportunity to meet people, and a lot of help from older family with facilitating meeting potential partners, it sounds very different from a daughter staying home to serve a parent’s needs.  I can’t make sense of how this is supposed to play out.)

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Spryte

[Ellie]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

And a tragedy for his wife too.  But the fact that he has issued some pretty heartfelt apologies for what he preached to parents throughput the years, not just the book which was early on, it makes me think he very much regrets most of his beliefs. I don't know how much of that is due to his dad, and how much is due to his own choices.

Gregg's wife passed away before Josh's drama, but yes, had she been alive, her heart would be been broken, I'm sure.

I don't think we ever know who caused what.

[Ellie]

13 minutes ago, Spryte said:

How exactly were these girls in the SAHD movement supposed to meet potential partners?  I am not following how that was intended to happen.  Boys from church, maybe?  It seems like they had a very small pool of prospects? I’m not really following how it was imagined that they would meet young men to court them, if they were mostly at home and these were not arranged or semi-arranged marriages. And, would there have been a plan for their parents to continue their financial support, should they not marry, since they apparently had little education?  (The family members I mentioned above are part of a very large, very active, international community and there is a lot of opportunity to meet people, and a lot of help from older family with facilitating meeting potential partners, it sounds very different from a daughter staying home to serve a parent’s needs.  I can’t make sense of how this is supposed to play out.)

 

Often, their parents made arrangements, and often without the girls' knowledge. Girls who didn't marry lived at home forever, presumably.

I remember reading one story about a man who contacted a young woman's father (must be the father, you know), and the two of them worked out a plan whereby the man (who if I remember correctly was significantly older than the girl) for how the courtship would progress, e.g., telephone calls, face-to-face meetings, and so on. In the beginning, she didn't even know she was being courted. o_0

There were some courtship proponents who weren't creepy. Jonathan Lindvall wasn't. He suggested that young people would first get to know each other in church or other group settings where they worked together doing something productive (and he's right, because you can get to know someone over time by working together). The decision to enter into a courtship was mutual, not parent-arranged.

[Faith-manor]

10 hours ago, Spryte said:

These are such eye-opening threads.  Thank you to those of you who survived and experienced this for sharing here.  

I have never known anyone who followed this model, didn’t even know it existed. (I also had never heard of the Duggars, other than here, and have never seen their show.)

Am I the only one for whom the word “courting” calls to mind, weirdly, The Witch of Blackbird Pond?  Ha!

I do have some JW friends who only allow dating with intent to marry, and require chaperones.  And some OJ family that leans toward the same (a step down from arranged marriage).  And, of course, some friends and family who joke that their kids won’t be allowed to date or drive till they are 35, but definite joking there.

This board gives quite an education.

How exactly were these girls in the SAHD movement supposed to meet potential partners?  I am not following how that was intended to happen.  Boys from church, maybe?  It seems like they had a very small pool of prospects? I’m not really following how it was imagined that they would meet young men to court them, if they were mostly at home and these were not arranged or semi-arranged marriages. And, would there have been a plan for their parents to continue their financial support, should they not marry, since they apparently had little education?  (The family members I mentioned above are part of a very large, very active, international community and there is a lot of opportunity to meet people, and a lot of help from older family with facilitating meeting potential partners, it sounds very different from a daughter staying home to serve a parent’s needs.  I can’t make sense of how this is supposed to play out.)

 

They don't really "meet" them in the traditional sense. While boys may approach a father - not the girl - about courtship/betrothal and the father considers whether or not he will allow it, often it is the father finding the mates for their daughters, and it is practically a done deal before she finds out her father has decided who will court her. Apart from an egregious wrong, the girls are supposed to acquiesce to marry the ones their fathers picked. So courtship even is a bit of a misnomer because it is more of a blend of courtship with arranged marriage. And it should be noted that Anna Duggar admitted that JB told her dad about Josh's "indiscretions" prior to their courtship, and this was not a show stopper for the Killers, and it appears that it was a full disclosure though I am sure JB thought of ways to make it sound not as bad as it was. Still, they basically betrothed her to him. Pretty darn sick and twisted!

ATI style churches do not have youth groups, and keep the young people gender segregated so there is virtually no contact, and what little may occur is heavily chaperoned. One of the side effects of this is that the boys pretty much have full agency so if they don't want to court, they do not have to, and because they are groomed for breast winning, work in some capacity outside the home or go to trade school or whatever which gives them the opportunity to see some of the world. The outcome has been a lot of fundie daughters not getting married. JB has been able to find mates, as well as the Bates, for their kids because they sold their lives to TLC, and unfortunately have a fan base in ATI and family followers. But one thing that has brought up by folks that have known of similar families and churches, like Boerne Christian Fellowship, and Christchurch Moscow, Idaho, is that an awful lot of SAHD are not finding husbands, and weddings among the strictest courtship/arranged marriage families are few. I guess at some point they are going to have to start preaching that the boys have to be SAHB and force arranged marriages on them.

That said, it is hard to keep the younger generation. Though the Duggar have had a lot of buy in from their own kids - money and control of money by JB - many families just don't manage it for consecutive generations. Kellers have 3 that have left the fold, Doug Phillips adult kids are pretty much doing their own thing, neither of Jeff Botkin's daughters married and since they are in their thirties and past prime fertility age, my guess is they never will and one of his three sons has rejected the family religion, Doug P's poster boy, Peter Bradrick is divorced, Josh Harris and wife are divorced, and on and on it goes. So recruitment to the religion has to stay strong which is just so ironic because the whole thing is based on the dominionist idea of brainwashing subsequent generations into the religion and creating a theocratic country by out breeding the heathens and taking over, not by "recruitment and conversion".  If it weren't connected to so much disgusting abuse, if would be a kind of fascinating anthropological study. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Faith-manor

[SKL]

It doesn't sound much different from what happens in average America these days.  Anyone compare statistics?

I would agree it's necessary to make sure girls have a good academic education in order to be ready for anything.  In addition to life skills including martial arts.  🙂

To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

[Happy2BaMom]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

It doesn't sound much different from what happens in average America these days.  Anyone compare statistics?

 

I think the key difference is that the SAHD (are supposed to) prove that the model (of SAHD) is successful (defined as "completely opposite of secular society"), meaning that the girls WILL be married early and will STAY married. The fact that they're not kind of blows the whole theory to h*ll.

Not that this is surprising. The # of young men who want to be saddled for life with being the sole breadwinner, especially in this hyper-competitive, unstable job market / economy.....are pretty limited.

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

IKR?

 

[HS Mom in NC]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

  To me, the amazing thing is that people with children still think they have much control over what their children will do.

That's where low quality Scriptural interpretation comes in.  This crowd doesn't know the difference between a promise and a proverb, so they take

Proverbs 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

to be a magic formula to get a their desired result because they think they're on the path of "the way" a person "should go."

I once heard a homeschool speaker (probably around the year 2000 when I started homeschooling my oldest) talk about creating a 200 year plan for their family.  It assumed whatever the average number of kids a couple could have between 20 and 40 without using birth control and that each of those descendants would do the same.  Defining a generation as 20 years, and boom! 200 years from now America would be full of their brand of Christianity.

It was laughable.  The idea that anyone has that kind of control is so divorced from reality that anyone with basic observational skills about life, the universe, and everything should've seen through it immediately.  I never heard another speaker like that after and I attended those AZ Homeschool Conventions annually for more than a dozen years. I left when they started turning into church services.

I do find it interesting that many a new homeschooler tends to forget to ask themselves what kind of outcome the speaker has long-term with their own kids. Most speakers I listened to at conventions had kids that weren't independent  adults yet (not relying on Mommy and Daddy for anything) or only a few older kids who were adults. With huge numbers of secular homeschoolers joining the homeschool community, I think the focus sifted more to academics as he primary motivation in my area, so that was good overall for newbies.  My guess is the fundamentalists regrouped elsewhere with more like minded people.

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I think the key difference is that the SAHD (are supposed to) prove that the model (of SAHD) is successful (defined as "completely opposite of secular society"), meaning that the girls WILL be married early and will STAY married. The fact that they're not kind of blows the whole theory to h*ll.

Not that this is surprising. The # of young men who want to be saddled for life with being the sole breadwinner, especially in this hyper-competitive, unstable job market / economy.....are pretty limited.

IKR?

 

Very true. Men are feeling the pressure and in so many parts of the country, single income home can mean poverty and especially with a large family. Not everyone has the privilege of being born in low COL and remain there. Plus if everyone in high COL moved to low COL, low COL would not be low for long. So the economics of the situation just do not add up as a prescribed, you must do this in order to be a righteous family, lifestyle for all nor does it take into consideration illness, injury, or death of the breadwinner. In the religion, the father, eldest brother, or other eldest male family member is supposed to take the daughter and her kids back and provide for them, but if dad is near retirement, that isn't tenable, and if brother has 8 kids and sis moves in with 9, what are the chances he can provide for all of them alone without a tv. show of his own? And this why so much hawking of dubious products and pyramid schemes is also prevalent among the women folk because they have to find ways to try to add to family income regardless of what the religion says.

Boys grow up, see the reality, and if dad isn't wealthy and able to support them, are probably inclined to marry outside the sect seeking out a mate who more of a partner than a total dependent even if she is a SAHM while the kids are young. They want someone who is willing to work for pay if needed, and unafraid of entering the world to do so.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's where low quality Scriptural interpretation comes in.  This crowd doesn't know the difference between a promise and a proverb, so they take

Proverbs 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it.

to be a magic formula to get a their desired result because they think they're on the path of "the way" a person "should go."

I once heard a homeschool speaker (probably around the year 2000 when I started homeschooling my oldest) talk about creating a 200 year plan for their family.  It assumed whatever the average number of kids a couple could have between 20 and 40 without using birth control and that each of those descendants would do the same.  Defining a generation as 20 years, and boom! 200 years from now America would be full of their brand of Christianity.

It was laughable.  The idea that anyone has that kind of control is so divorced from reality that anyone with basic observational skills about life, the universe, and everything should've seen through it immediately.  I never heard another speaker like that after and I attended those AZ Homeschool Conventions annually for more than a dozen years. I left when they started turning into church services.

 

It may have been Scott Botkin. He was big into the 200 year plan and prayed over Anna Sofia and Elizabeth's ovaries when they were born. No joke. He talked about that at conventions. SO GROSS! Anyway, I do find it just kind of hilarious how his 200 year plan is working out. If memory serves, the Botkin girls are 30 and 32/33, unmarried, so those ovaries are not being put to use creating younglings for his 200 year plan. Of the three sons, one has left the ATI/VF nest, and he and his wife are leading a very different life, limiting their family size. Not sure how he is getting to his 200 descendents in record time with just two kids involved!

[HS Mom in NC]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

It may have been Scott Botkin. He was big into the 200 year plan and prayed over Anna Sofia and Elizabeth's ovaries when they were born. No joke. He talked about that at conventions. SO GROSS! Anyway, I do find it just kind of hilarious how his 200 year plan is working out. If memory serves, the Botkin girls are 30 and 32/33, unmarried, so those ovaries are not being put to use creating younglings for his 200 year plan. Of the three sons, one has left the ATI/VF nest, and he and his wife are leading a very different life, limiting their family size. Not sure how he is getting to his 200 descendents in record time with just two kids involved!

I'm worried that branches of American Christianity who see the decline in members, and particularly people of the old school Botkin 200 years nonsense and Duggar types will start thinking polygamy Old Testament style is the solution.  There's a disproportionate number of women in most branches of Christianity right now.  Based on what I'm reading here about SAHDs, it's a bigger issue in those circles.

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm worried that branches of American Christianity who see the decline in members, and particularly people of the old school Botkin 200 years nonsense and Duggar types will start thinking polygamy Old Testament style is the solution.  There's a disproportionate number of women in most branches of Christianity right now.  Based on what I'm reading here about SAHDs, it's a bigger issue in those circles.

That would be an interesting turn for sure, this is the "marriage is between one woman and one man" crowd.  It would take eating some serious crow, or probably just "forgetting" that they had fervently held that stance.  When they predicted the slippery slope I doubt they envisioned themselves as the ones sliding down it.