writing curriculum for dyslexic (and apathetic about writing) DD11

[ktgrok]

To start, she's reading pretty darned well, about grade level, but her spelling is still way below level. And she's a perfectionist, so she hates writing because it takes forever as she tries to spell things, AND then she still misspells things and that makes her upset. I've taken to NOT correcting any spelling on daily work, like answers in her Gather 'Round workbook, etc. Otherwise she shuts down. And yes, I've shown her my own manuscripts after they are returned by my editor, with all the corrections to make, etc but it is still something that bothers her, and I don't really blame her. Having to rewrite at least one word per sentence makes you not want to write sentences, you know?

Anyway, we had started to work on typing, but then her laptop broke, and the desktop has a weird keyboard, and we all got worn down by the pandemic and we dropped it. Need to restart that. We use Touch, Type, Read and Spell which also works on phonics, spelling, etc. Slow going, but getting there. My hope is that once she can type spell check will help her. Ironically, she has great handwriting. Meanwhile, my natural speller likely has dysgraphia. So both will likely end up typing stuff as they mature. 

Anyway, between what is likely some mild depression due to isolation during covid, tween angst, puberty, etc her writing is just almost nonexistent. I may need an actual curriculum, so it is the curriculum, not me, pushing her, if that makes sense. But I'm not sure what to use. I'm thinking either IEW or Kilgallon Sentence Composer. 

Other thoughts? I think she needs real guidance, and clear expectations, as she is in that "only do the absolute minimum" place some kids go to. Now, maybe that will change if she can get vaccinated in the fall, and our lives get back to "normal". But maybe it's puberty, etc. 

Any thoughts? 

[KSera]

Killgallon would be a nice start or addition, because it can be done orally. That’s how I do it with mine, and it tends to be enjoyable. Could you choose a main writing curriculum that can also be mostly oral while she works on getting fluent with typing? And maybe having her written work be copy work that she can concentrate on doing really well with proper spelling and punctuation. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

Killgallon would be a nice start or addition, because it can be done orally. That’s how I do it with mine, and it tends to be enjoyable. Could you choose a main writing curriculum that can also be mostly oral while she works on getting fluent with typing? And maybe having her written work be copy work that she can concentrate on doing really well with proper spelling and punctuation. 

Yes, that would be prefect. 

[HomeAgain]

She might like IEW.  Every lesson starts with a keyword outline (drawings, words, symbols) and retelling from that outline.  I would definitely keep up the typing lessons for the final draft, and probably create similar "gap" lessons to practice a trickier skill when it starts getting difficult or stretch out lessons over two weeks when they start getting longer.  Until the final draft, spelling doesn't matter.  However, I would do what I do with any of our writing lessons- have my kid highlight specific words that I know will be tricky for him: names, places, a specific detail.

 

Because she's reluctant and struggles, anything you use is probably going to get a modified schedule anyway.  Those are the type of subjects I put a time limit on or I am more explicit.  IEW can be vague "Day 2: begin writing your story", "Day 3: finish writing your story and edit your piece."  These are not the sort of instructions my own kid needs.  His would be more like: "IEW:  30 minutes" or "Day 2: write paragraphs 1 and 2", "Day 3: write paragraph 3. Edit, using the rubric to make changes."

[Lori D.]

Personally, I'd vote for whatever helps her "lighten up and have fun with writing". 😄 JMO, but 5th/6th grades are a great time to explore with writing, now that she had some "formal" writing under her belt (sentences and short paragraphs), and to have some fun with writing before it has to "get formal" again in late middle school with essays and research papers...

For my writing-haters, what would NOT have helped would have been something that drills writing (Killgallon), or was formulaic (IEW). For us, that was Wordsmith Apprentice: fun cub reporter theme with silly cartoon introducing each new section of the newspaper; written in a light/informal tone to the student and done largely independently by the student; can do as big or small of a bite per day as works for the individual student; covers all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive); and moves from sentences into paragraphs. (here's the Cathy Duffy review of the Wordsmith series)

Absolutely, if a student is not understanding basic sentence structure, then go with Killgallon. Or if a student needs the formulaic process of IEW to see how to structure a paragraph, or that we come back to a piece of writing several times to revise and polish and proof-edit, then go for it!

re: spelling while writing -- I trained DS#2 who struggled mightily with spelling and writing ("stealth" dyslexia) to just ask in the moment "how do you spell _________?" Because when he was writing, it was about writing, not spelling. We put in plenty of time daily specifically working on spelling, so he needed encouragement with writing and to keep writing -- which meant taking spelling out of the equation for him.

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

...she's a perfectionist, so she hates writing because it takes forever as she tries to spell things, AND then she still misspells things and that makes her upset. I've taken to NOT correcting any spelling on daily work, like answers in her Gather 'Round workbook, etc. Otherwise she shuts down. And yes, I've shown her my own manuscripts after they are returned by my editor, with all the corrections to make, etc but it is still something that bothers her, and I don't really blame her. Having to rewrite at least one word per sentence makes you not want to write sentences, you know?...

Any thoughts? 

I'd just go with oral answers or sometimes scribe for her for some of the non-LA subjects, until spelling and writing abilities start to catch up. How much "brain battery' energy does the child have for the day? If you make the child pour some of that "brain battery" energy into having to focus on  writing/spelling for subjects where spelling/writing is NOT the focus, there is that much LESS "brain battery" energy for actually engaging in those non-writing/spelling subjects... It's a variation on the "pick your battles" idea -- save the brain battery energy needed for spelling/writing for when you're doing spelling/writing, and frequently remove writing out of the non-writing subject area so she can relax and actually absorb and engage with the info for that non-writing subject.

And when the oral answers or scribing isn't an option, stress the "just ask" policy, which is that "it is always great to ask how to spell a word in the midst of writing so you can keep your flow of thoughts going". Never EVER be exasperated (even though inside you want to scream, lol), and always be cheerful and helpful when she does ask, by repeating correct pronunciation, and dividing into syllables for spelling, as a subtle reinforcement of spelling techniques:
- "Mom, how do you spell 'forest' "?
- "Forest? That's a great word! That's 2 syllables: "FOR-",  F-O-R, "-EST" e-s-t. Forest."


BEST of luck in finding what helps best. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Lori D.

[eeyore]

Writing is the bane of our homeschool, so I'm not able to be helpful there (DS 13, dyslexic and ADHD and...other stuff).

But we recently found Sequential Spelling - there is an online only version with audio/typing answers.  After years of trying with phonics/rules type spelling, this is really helping my DS so I thought I'd toss it out there for you. The audio quality can be glitchy sometimes. The  patterns/repetition strategy has been really great. First time my DS has really made rapid progress - and it's sticking - showing up in his regular writing. No teaching of 'rules' at least in the online only form.  My DS does like and benefit from knowing the phonics/spelling rules, so I explain those as they come up. I think there's a trial period you can try it out for some days.  They also have regular workbooks/teacher's guide books, too. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Personally, I'd vote for whatever helps her "lighten up and have fun with writing". 😄 JMO, but 5th/6th grades are a great time to explore with writing, now that she had some "formal" writing under her belt (sentences and short paragraphs), and to have some fun with writing before it has to "get formal" again in late middle school with essays and research papers...

For my writing-haters, what would NOT have helped would have been something that drills writing (Killgallon), or was formulaic (IEW). For us, that was Wordsmith Apprentice: fun cub reporter theme with silly cartoon introducing each new section of the newspaper; written in a light/informal tone to the student and done largely independently by the student; can do as big or small of a bite per day as works for the individual student; covers all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive); and moves from sentences into paragraphs. (here's the Cathy Duffy review of the Wordsmith series)

Absolutely, if a student is not understanding basic sentence structure, then go with Killgallon. Or if a student needs the formulaic process of IEW to see how to structure a paragraph, or that we come back to a piece of writing several times to revise and polish and proof-edit, then go for it!

re: spelling while writing -- I trained DS#2 who struggled mightily with spelling and writing ("stealth" dyslexia) to just ask in the moment "how do you spell _________?" Because when he was writing, it was about writing, not spelling. We put in plenty of time daily specifically working on spelling, so he needed encouragement with writing and to keep writing -- which meant taking spelling out of the equation for him.

I'd just go with oral answers or sometimes scribe for her for some of the non-LA subjects, until spelling and writing abilities start to catch up. How much "brain battery' energy does the child have for the day? If you make the child pour some of that "brain battery" energy into having to focus on  writing/spelling for subjects where spelling/writing is NOT the focus, there is that much LESS "brain battery" energy for actually engaging in those non-writing/spelling subjects... It's a variation on the "pick your battles" idea -- save the brain battery energy needed for spelling/writing for when you're doing spelling/writing, and frequently remove writing out of the non-writing subject area so she can relax and actually absorb and engage with the info for that non-writing subject.

And when the oral answers or scribing isn't an option, stress the "just ask" policy, which is that "it is always great to ask how to spell a word in the midst of writing so you can keep your flow of thoughts going". Never EVER be exasperated (even though inside you want to scream, lol), and always be cheerful and helpful when she does ask, by repeating correct pronunciation, and dividing into syllables for spelling, as a subtle reinforcement of spelling techniques:
- "Mom, how do you spell 'forest' "?
- "Forest? That's a great word! That's 2 syllables: "FOR-",  F-O-R, "-EST" e-s-t. Forest."


BEST of luck in finding what helps best. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Ok, I just pulled up Wordsmith Apprentice and that looks PERFECT. Lots of practice with parts of the sentence before jumping in to writing a bunch on your own, etc. ! THANK YOU!

And I do have her just ask how to spell it, and she also has my phone to use with an app called easy spelling where you can say a whole phrase and it puts it on the screen to copy. But it still is frustrating...I'm thinking because it totally ruins the flow of writing to stop over and over to ask how to spell something. 

2 hours ago, eeyore said:

Writing is the bane of our homeschool, so I'm not able to be helpful there (DS 13, dyslexic and ADHD and...other stuff).

But we recently found Sequential Spelling - there is an online only version with audio/typing answers.  After years of trying with phonics/rules type spelling, this is really helping my DS so I thought I'd toss it out there for you. The audio quality can be glitchy sometimes. The  patterns/repetition strategy has been really great. First time my DS has really made rapid progress - and it's sticking - showing up in his regular writing. No teaching of 'rules' at least in the online only form.  My DS does like and benefit from knowing the phonics/spelling rules, so I explain those as they come up. I think there's a trial period you can try it out for some days.  They also have regular workbooks/teacher's guide books, too. 

 

 

We tried that and she HATED it with a passion - left her so upset because it doesn't teach first, so she would get things wrong and get upset. 

We are currently using Nessy Reading and Spelling, which at least lets her feel less embarrassed since it is a computer seeing her mess up, not me. 

[Lori D.]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, I just pulled up Wordsmith Apprentice and that looks PERFECT...

Yea!

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

...And I do have her just ask how to spell it, and she also has my phone to use with an app called easy spelling where you can say a whole phrase and it puts it on the screen to copy. But it still is frustrating...I'm thinking because it totally ruins the flow of writing to stop over and over to ask how to spell something...

Gotcha. Hopefully she'll start to turn that spelling corner soon. My DS#2 with the stealth dyslexia didn't even BEGIN to click with spelling in ANY way until he was 12yo. 😩 SOOO hard to keep patiently trying things, but mostly realizing it was a matter of his unique timetable of when that portion of his brain kicked in...

If you need any more ideas of things to try re: spelling, let me know... Happy to share from our experience. 😉 

[eeyore]

Yeah...the getting it wrong part on Sequential Spelling was really not fun for DS.  Totally understand. I think it should be modified with that in mind - some sort of teaching component first. DS is only okay with it by calling it "stupid" and b/c he has seen how it has helped. I probably should have mentioned that! 

[rutheart]

My dyslexic/dysgraphic daughter hated writing, and it was like pulling teeth to get her to write a paragraph. This year, for sixth grade, I used Adventures in Fantasy with her. Even though I wasn't sure if she could handle the writing load, I knew I needed to spark a love of writing. We have two weeks left to our school year now, and she voluntarily writes full pages in her daily journal (even if I don't assign journal time at all), and she is itching to write more novels. FWIW, my older daughter also loved Adventures in Fantasy.

Also, I would address the perfectionism separately. My kid was a perfectionist from the beginning. She refused to speak in front of us until she could articulate words, but we could hear her babble on the baby monitor. When we started homeschooling, I found a bunch of picture books on the topic, and we also discussed how in science being wrong is when science gets really exciting. For awhile after that, we pointed out all the times my husband and I made mistakes as they happened. It made a big change in her attitude and she became a lot more willing to seek help when she needed it.

Another thing that helped with her writing was to only make 1 or 2 corrections on each assignment (whatever makes it the least intelligible), even if there were a lot more issues. If she's not overloaded with corrections, she's more likely to remember those issues, and the writing gradually improves.

Ruth

[2_girls_mommy]

I am going to suggest Thinking Tree and Dyslexia Games books.  We discovered them for our dd at age 11 who was going through the same things.  We let her use the horse covered core curriculum journal as a mini self set up unit study that year and added in dyslexia games and their spelling the top misspelled words workbook (along with some therapies and things we learned from a learning center we used.) The Thinking Tree journal does not teach writing, in fact doesn't "teach" anything at all.  But they are designed for kids to start creating their own schoolwork and she LOVED it.  We did not correct spelling.  We set up parameters of what she could use to study for with her journal that year.  We still did our regular English book that had writing instruction in it (Rod and Staff English) but at a slower pace, and it was a GREAT year.  The journal has plenty of notebook style freewrite pages but in small amounts.  The one she used had a lot of pictures to make up a story about, and she reall connected with the old fashioned pictures of girls to make the the little stories about.  She wrote lots of little stories putting herself and her sisters into them with the picture prompts.  And I saw her using what she was learning from the English book without being told, like using proper punctuation and adding conversations and such.  It made a big difference for us that year. 

[ktgrok]

 

 

8 hours ago, rutheart said:

 

Also, I would address the perfectionism separately. My kid was a perfectionist from the beginning. She refused to speak in front of us until she could articulate words, but we could hear her babble on the baby monitor. When we started homeschooling, I found a bunch of picture books on the topic, and we also discussed how in science being wrong is when science gets really exciting. For awhile after that, we pointed out all the times my husband and I made mistakes as they happened. It made a big change in her attitude and she became a lot more willing to seek help when she needed it.

Another thing that helped with her writing was to only make 1 or 2 corrections on each assignment (whatever makes it the least intelligible), even if there were a lot more issues. If she's not overloaded with corrections, she's more likely to remember those issues, and the writing gradually improves.

Ruth

Ha! Yes - this girl never "toddled" at all...none of that take a half step then fall thing. She didn't try until she could walk perfectly. We talk a LOT about failure being part of the process, etc. In fact, our current unit study is on inventions for that reason - lots of chances to talk about how things were made by accident, or took lots of years to actually work, etc. 

I really like the idea of only picking one or two things to correct. That's super helpful. 

[ktgrok]

20 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Yea!

Gotcha. Hopefully she'll start to turn that spelling corner soon. My DS#2 with the stealth dyslexia didn't even BEGIN to click with spelling in ANY way until he was 12yo. 😩 SOOO hard to keep patiently trying things, but mostly realizing it was a matter of his unique timetable of when that portion of his brain kicked in...

If you need any more ideas of things to try re: spelling, let me know... Happy to share from our experience. 😉 

I'm looking at Wordsmith Aprentice and can't tell if I need the Wordsmith Teachers Guide? I only see on teachers guide, not sure if it is for all levels, or just the more advanced level, or? 

And yes on the spelling...we purposely worked harder on reading, as it seemed more important, and she actually LIKES reading now! But that means we can work more on the spelling. 

[Not_a_Number]

In situations like this, I tend to brainstorm with the kid and figure out what they want to do. And I try to keep my goals clear, which makes it easier to brainstorm with them. 

So... what is it that you want out of her writing program? What skills would you like her to work on? I'd answer those questions yourself, then I'd try to work WITH her to figure out how to meet those goals within the context of what it is SHE wants to do. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

In situations like this, I tend to brainstorm with the kid and figure out what they want to do. And I try to keep my goals clear, which makes it easier to brainstorm with them. 

So... what is it that you want out of her writing program? What skills would you like her to work on? I'd answer those questions yourself, then I'd try to work WITH her to figure out how to meet those goals within the context of what it is SHE wants to do. 

She wants to not write 🙂

She also is in a "why do I have to do history, it's just dead people doing stuff", etc etc. 

 

[barnwife]

I have a DS10 who sounds similar. FWIW, we are now using ELTL, AAS, and Killgallon. We also do activities from TWR as a whole family. I wouldn't say he loves any of it, but it gets done with a good attitude most days. So I call all of it a win currently. We do ELTL 3 days a week, Killagallon twice a week, and AAS 4 or 5 days a week. I think when we finish this level of ELTL (he's currently in level C), we will do Wordsmith Apprentice before going to level D. 

We do a lot of Killgallon either orally or with me as scribe. If I asked him to complete it independently, it would be a total disaster. 

GL finding something that works!

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

She wants to not write 🙂

Right. Well, this is where clarifying your own goals and telling her those aren't negotiable would help. Then she can work within that space. 

When DD8 was in grade 1, she also wanted to not write 😛 . My one requirement at that age was that she put pencil to paper every day for 30 minutes or so. That was all I needed from her. Within that space, we figured out what she was least unhappy doing. She was never overjoyed about writing (and still isn't), but there isn't mutiny, either. 

You'd probably wind up with "least unhappy" as opposed to "thrilled," too, but I do think taking a kid's input can help keep things going better. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. Well, this is where clarifying your own goals and telling her those aren't negotiable would help. Then she can work within that space. 

When DD8 was in grade 1, she also wanted to not write 😛 . My one requirement at that age was that she put pencil to paper every day for 30 minutes or so. That was all I needed from her. Within that space, we figured out what she was least unhappy doing. She was never overjoyed about writing (and still isn't), but there isn't mutiny, either. 

You'd probably wind up with "least unhappy" as opposed to "thrilled," too, but I do think taking a kid's input can help keep things going better. 

I think that can work in a lot of situations, but in this, she needs help due to her dyslexia, she needs a program that will work well with that, and she doesn't have the experience or knowledge to know what that is. Hopefully that makes sense? 

[Terabith]

I'm just going to throw this out here.  We got my youngest a smart phone when she was 12, and she made more progress with spelling and typing in six months than she had in six years of OG reading instruction, just from texting her friends.  Her spelling is still genuinely terrible, but I do not ever make her correct it.  When she finishes a draft, I serve as editor and fix all spelling in a word processing document.  You want to get her REALLY, REALLY comfortable with spellcheck and word prediction software.  Of course, she's 16 now, and we've given up on fixing her spelling, and you might not be there.  But honestly, I'd try to get her over that perfectionistic hump and help her come to terms with the fact that she's likely to always struggle with spelling and it doesn't really matter all that much.  

Cat's actually a pretty decent writer now, with a good voice, even though her spelling is maybe at a third grade level, which is a HUGE jump from the  first grade level we were stuck at pre smart phone.  Third grade level is good enough that spellcheck is mostly functional.  

[8filltheheart]

I have 3 dyslexics and I'm going to disagree with the advice that writing/composition be done orally.  The entire problem you describe is the inability to get words on paper in a logical/sequential way.  That takes writing it down and mastering the process.  Doing other subjects orally is not a problem.  But Kilgallon orally is not going to address the problem you are describing.

Take baby steps.  GIve her an outline.  Create the topic sentence for her and then discuss how to take the details and create an interesting paragraph. Choose topics she is interested in.  At her age I would select a bigger topic and create a small chpt bk.  For example, if she is studying ecosystems and likes it, she can write a bk on the topic and each "chpt" is a paragraph on an aspect of a specific ecosystem.  If she likes art, she can illustrate the book. Have her skip every other line so that any corrections can be addressed on the blank lines.  

In my experience with my dyslexic kids, there is no way around the spelling issues.  They are going to be there forever. (2 of mine are adults, the 3rd a 9th grader.) Even with typing, my kids still face tons of annoyance trying to figure out why spell check can't figure out the word they are typing or autocorrect will use a homophone or simply the wrong word completely.  I remember laughing at one of my ds's bc I told him he was going to find himself enlisted in the Navy bc autocorrect kept inserting the word carrier in for career.

She is going to have to learn to write separately from addressing spelling.   (That is why I have my kids leave a blank line.) Focus on the process of sentence development and paragraph structure.  That is key.

FWIW, the only spelling program that has helped improve my kids' spelling (though it is still awful, just less so) is Apples and Pears.  SRA Direct is similar but way more expensive.  After A&P we use How to Teach Spelling.  My dyslexic kids work on spelling all the way through high school graduation.  Typing is important, but it isn't going to address underlying issues.  They have to learn how to spell main words.  They have to learn how to write.  Then typing can help them learn how to cope independently without a proofreader.  FWIW, one way to help them learn to find their own spelling errors is to read their writing backward from end to beginning.  Focusing on the individual word vs what they wrote does help them find some of their most egregious errors for words they do know how to spell.

[Not_a_Number]

10 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I think that can work in a lot of situations, but in this, she needs help due to her dyslexia, she needs a program that will work well with that, and she doesn't have the experience or knowledge to know what that is. Hopefully that makes sense? 

I think everyone has a different approach here 🙂 . I would probably personally try to work with her own goals and see if I can figure out how to make them compatible with the dyslexia.

But I don’t use programs, really, except as inspiration. So I’m probably coming from a very different perspective — we DIY everything as is.

[domestic_engineer]

This isn’t a curriculum but a resource:  Melissa Forney's Picture Speller for Young Writers https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0965242226/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_W7PR588T07W716GGV3KR

You could use it with some of 8’s ideas to create topical books.   The illustrations may be too childish for your DD though. 
 

ETA:  Congrats on getting her reading to grade level. Well done, to you AND her!  That’s a big accomplishment!!!

Edited May 10, 2021 by domestic_engineer

[Lori D.]

16 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I'm looking at Wordsmith Aprentice and can't tell if I need the Wordsmith Teachers Guide? I only see on teachers guide, not sure if it is for all levels, or just the more advanced level, or? ...

Correct -- there is NO teacher guide for the first level of  Wordsmith Apprentice (gr. 4-6). 😄 

(There is only a teacher guide for the second level, Wordsmith (gr. 7-8). The third level, Wordsmith Craftsman (gr. 9-12), also has NO teacher guide.)

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think everyone has a different approach here 🙂 . I would probably personally try to work with her own goals and see if I can figure out how to make them compatible with the dyslexia.

But I don’t use programs, really, except as inspiration. So I’m probably coming from a very different perspective — we DIY everything as is.

We do that a lot with other subjects, but with this, we need more help because she doesn't know how to reach her goals. Sort of like, I normally pick and choose exercise activities to suit my goal of being fit but based on my personal likes and dislikes. But when I had an injury, and had specific issues to deal with, going to a physical therapist to get help based on my problem made more sense. 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

We do that a lot with other subjects, but with this, we need more help because she doesn't know how to reach her goals. Sort of like, I normally pick and choose exercise activities to suit my goal of being fit but based on my personal likes and dislikes. But when I had an injury, and had specific issues to deal with, going to a physical therapist to get help based on my problem made more sense. 

Right. That makes sense 🙂 . I'm just saying what I'd probably do, because I'm allergic to stuff other people tell me to do, lol. And occasionally, I'm pretty sorry at the end of the day that I'm allergic to it -- like, I do my own thing, then discover that paying attention to other people who know more than me does pay off after all 😉 . 

[ktgrok]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Right. That makes sense 🙂 . I'm just saying what I'd probably do, because I'm allergic to stuff other people tell me to do, lol. And occasionally, I'm pretty sorry at the end of the day that I'm allergic to it -- like, I do my own thing, then discover that paying attention to other people who know more than me does pay off after all 😉 . 

Oh, I hear you, I do. I just think that when dealing with a true learning disability, it's a whole different ball game. Just like "being active" is different than "rehabilitation". 

And some kids, at certain ages, respond better to "because that is what the book says to do" than "because.......insert long answer about why mom thinks it is important". 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, ktgrok said:

Oh, I hear you, I do. I just think that when dealing with a true learning disability, it's a whole different ball game. Just like "being active" is different than "rehabilitation". 

So... again, not recommend you do this, but what I'd probably wind up doing is reading up on what's going on in my kid's brain, then troubleshooting using that knowledge and my personal perspective. Again, just because I'm adamantly a DIY person, in a way that's sometimes detrimental. 

But this is really about my own psychology and not advice anymore!! More me musing out loud than anything else. I haven't had a kid with dyslexia or anything. 

Anyway, that's my personal (and perhaps unhelpful) perspective! 

 

Just now, ktgrok said:

And some kids, at certain ages, respond better to "because that is what the book says to do" than "because.......insert long answer about why mom thinks it is important". 

Oh, yes. I've seen this effect firsthand, lol. It really annoys me! 

[8filltheheart]

On 5/8/2021 at 10:12 AM, ktgrok said:

I think she needs real guidance, and clear expectations, as she is in that "only do the absolute minimum" place some kids go to.

 

15 hours ago, ktgrok said:

We do that a lot with other subjects, but with this, we need more help because she doesn't know how to reach her goals. Sort of like, I normally pick and choose exercise activities to suit my goal of being fit but based on my personal likes and dislikes. But when I had an injury, and had specific issues to deal with, going to a physical therapist to get help based on my problem made more sense. 

In this case, you know the problem.  No writing program is going to fix the problem by itself bc writing as a process needs to be taught and discussed.  THe process is not difficult (which you already know bc you are writer.)  Once they master a basic understanding of the skeletal structure of writing, then fleshing out style through improved sentence structures is not only easier to address but also less stressful bc it is simply improving quality, not having to restructure everything bc it lacked cohesion or logical sequencing.  There is no way around their mastering writing fundamentals except by putting words on paper. 

The easiest method of mastering quality writing I have found is to spend time helping them see that all writing, regardless of genre, follows the same basic principles--a controlling topic expanded upon by providing more information.  For an 11 yo, that means a topic sentence with supporting sentences.  It is easy to sit and analyze the structure of paragraphs in nonfiction.  When stripped down to a few words, the skeleton of good writing always goes back to that same structure.  Helping them understand that they have to organize their writing into a logical structure ultimately gives them freedom long term bc the rudimentary can be fleshed out in their own voice creating the vision they want to achieve. 

Providing them scaffolded support while they master basic paragraph structure makes the process less inimidating.  Give her well-written paragraphs and have her take them apart and create the skeletal outline that was used to create it.  There is no pressure for spelling correctly bc she can copy the words.  Have her write the topic sentence and identify each supporting detail.    After she creates the outline of the paragraph, she can rewrite the paragraph in her own words.  I often print science or history articles geared toward children off the internet for this process. 

Once my kids have mastered the above, I might print off 2 or 3 articles on the same topic and have them create notecards from the different articles.  THen I have them synthesize the information from the different articles into a single outline.  (It may require sitting with them and helping them by asking guiding questions to identify/redirect them to the controlling idea they are trying to focus on.)  Once they have their notecards, they put them on the floor and create a visual logically sequenced outline.  Then they write their outline on paper.  Then they write a paragraph from the outline created from their notes.

Only after my kids have mastered the above do I focus on the ideas in Kilgallon like complex sentence structures to improve the quality.  And teaching complex essay writing later on is not complex bc all they have to master is organizing their argument under their controlling thesis and incorporating supporting evidence into their paragraph structure.

Writing programs without the teacher being the one enforcing the structure/revising&improving, etc are not going to teach writing to mastery.  A student with writing problems isn't going to self-identify the issues in their own writing bc they read their writing with what they think they wrote, not what was actually written.  The teacher is the one who is going to have help them see where they have succeeded and where they haven't.  

[eeyore]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

In this case, you know the problem.  No writing program is going to fix the problem by itself bc writing as a process needs to be taught and discussed.  THe process is not difficult (which you already know bc you are writer.)  Once they master a basic understanding of the skeletal structure of writing, then fleshing out style through improved sentence structures is not only easier to address but also less stressful bc it is simply improving quality, not having to restructure everything bc it lacked cohesion or logical sequencing.  There is no way around their mastering writing fundamentals except by putting words on paper. 

Thank you for taking the time to explain your process.  This is so helpful! 

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

 

In this case, you know the problem.  No writing program is going to fix the problem by itself bc writing as a process needs to be taught and discussed.  THe process is not difficult (which you already know bc you are writer.)  Once they master a basic understanding of the skeletal structure of writing, then fleshing out style through improved sentence structures is not only easier to address but also less stressful bc it is simply improving quality, not having to restructure everything bc it lacked cohesion or logical sequencing.  There is no way around their mastering writing fundamentals except by putting words on paper. 

The easiest method of mastering quality writing I have found is to spend time helping them see that all writing, regardless of genre, follows the same basic principles--a controlling topic expanded upon by providing more information.  For an 11 yo, that means a topic sentence with supporting sentences.  It is easy to sit and analyze the structure of paragraphs in nonfiction.  When stripped down to a few words, the skeleton of good writing always goes back to that same structure.  Helping them understand that they have to organize their writing into a logical structure ultimately gives them freedom long term bc the rudimentary can be fleshed out in their own voice creating the vision they want to achieve. 

Providing them scaffolded support while they master basic paragraph structure makes the process less inimidating.  Give her well-written paragraphs and have her take them apart and create the skeletal outline that was used to create it.  There is no pressure for spelling correctly bc she can copy the words.  Have her write the topic sentence and identify each supporting detail.    After she creates the outline of the paragraph, she can rewrite the paragraph in her own words.  I often print science or history articles geared toward children off the internet for this process. 

Once my kids have mastered the above, I might print off 2 or 3 articles on the same topic and have them create notecards from the different articles.  THen I have them synthesize the information from the different articles into a single outline.  (It may require sitting with them and helping them by asking guiding questions to identify/redirect them to the controlling idea they are trying to focus on.)  Once they have their notecards, they put them on the floor and create a visual logically sequenced outline.  Then they write their outline on paper.  Then they write a paragraph from the outline created from their notes.

Only after my kids have mastered the above do I focus on the ideas in Kilgallon like complex sentence structures to improve the quality.  And teaching complex essay writing later on is not complex bc all they have to master is organizing their argument under their controlling thesis and incorporating supporting evidence into their paragraph structure.

Writing programs without the teacher being the one enforcing the structure/revising&improving, etc are not going to teach writing to mastery.  A student with writing problems isn't going to self-identify the issues in their own writing bc they read their writing with what they think they wrote, not what was actually written.  The teacher is the one who is going to have help them see where they have succeeded and where they haven't.  

Thank you!  I think the issue is that when something comes a bit too easy, it becomes hard to break it down for a person struggling. With my son, we literally went over how to write an essay one time, and he had it. That was it. And that was in 8th grade. 

I think your idea of going backwards, and creating an outline from a paragraph, is perfect. That is what IEW has them do, if I remember correctly. I think that would let her get the "bones" down. And then rewriting it would be a baby step to writing her own. 

Thank you!

[domestic_engineer]

There’s always 8’s Treasured Conversations that takes her ideas and breaks it up into daily chunks. 😉. (I’m having a hard time linking since I’m on my phone.) ETA:  https://treasuredconversations.wpcomstaging.com/product/teaching-writing-through-guided-analysis/

Edited May 13, 2021 by domestic_engineer
Link added

[SillyOldMom]

Dropping in to give a shameless plug for Write by Number. It's open and go, with all the assignments included. It starts with one sentence, and the expectations are clear and achievable. You can make accommodations for special needs as your circumstances require. My dyslexic dd used the method in an in-person class with the author for two years and scored a 60 on the CLEP College Composition test, even though she didn't complete the entire program. (Full disclosure: I helped the author produce the books.)

My oldest (NT) used Wordsmith Apprentice and enjoyed it. I can't remember if I did much with the teacher's guide. I'm sure I'll find it a month from now when I do my next book purge and it will be too late to answer your question! LOL.

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, SillyOldMom said:

Dropping in to give a shameless plug for Write by Number. It's open and go, with all the assignments included. It starts with one sentence, and the expectations are clear and achievable....

Any way of seeing sample pages??? Because -- yowza! That's an extremely expensive program to buy sight-unseen.

[SillyOldMom]

@Lori D.You can sign up for a 14-day free trial (no credit card required) where you can view the PDFs of both the Teacher and Student Books in their entirety. If you need more time to test it out, you can continue using the view-only PDFs for $5/month or $50/year.

The print books are pricey up front, not gonna lie. But it is a multi-year curriculum, so if you use it for several years or with multiple students, the cost per student per year drops significantly.

[Random]

I can't add to the great advice already given, but I feel compelled to give props to you, @ktgrok , for having a 5th grade dyslexic student who reads on grade level!  That's a lot of work and dedication from teacher and student.  Great job!

 

[Lori D.]

10 hours ago, SillyOldMom said:

@Lori D.You can sign up for a 14-day free trial (no credit card required) where you can view the PDFs of both the Teacher and Student Books in their entirety. If you need more time to test it out, you can continue using the view-only PDFs for $5/month or $50/year.

The print books are pricey up front, not gonna lie. But it is a multi-year curriculum, so if you use it for several years or with multiple students, the cost per student per year drops significantly.

Thanks.

Sigh.

I would REALLY encourage your friend to have sample pages rather than require sign-up to see/use samples. That is going to lose potential viewers/buyers if there are a lot of homeschoolers like me --  I don't do sign-ups of anything because I end up on mailing lists, AND I don't do free trials that turn in to "must pay" if I forget to cancel. It's just not worth the risk of forgetting to cancel, and frankly, it feels a bit like an underhanded way to get sales (although I'm sure that's NOT how your friend means it, and I see that the free trial requires no credit card.)

Also, I don't want to "lead on" the creator of the material thinking I might be interested, when all I really want to do is flip through a stack of resources from *many* publishers to see if any of them is useful for my particular needs. Additionally, I am MUCH more likely to suggest curricula to people if I could see samples unencumbered, whereas I will never feel I could legitimately suggest this curricula, because I have no idea what it's like to be able to tell someone that it might be a match for their needs.

I meant all of that kindly and gently, and to be helpful feedback re: your friend's marketing strategy. And, it's just my take on things. Others may feel differently about signing up and getting a free trial. 😉 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Lori D.

[goldenecho]

I do not have advice on curriculum, but I do have advice on a method to use with whatever curriculum you use.

If you're doing anything new, long, or difficult in writing, let her dictate it to you and you write it down for her.   She can edit on her own.   Save having her write things down for short answers and or writing forms she's gotten to practice several times by dictation and is very comfortable with.

The reason why is it's helpful to separate learning how to write it down from learning how to create the content, organize the writing, sentence structure, etc.  Those skills can be learned separately and with someone who struggles very hard with basics like spelling and is very slow in writing it down it's helpful to teach those skills separately from each other.

My dyslexic son (age 12) would take over an hour to write OR type a simple paragraph, even when we had already done extensive pre-writing.   One day in frustration, working on an essay where he had taken two hours to badly write the first paragraph, I let him dictate the rest to me.   He was able to finish the rest of the 5 paragraph essay in one hour, and it was well written and well organized, with very little guidance from me just me writing it down verbatim.  I asked him afterwards why it was so much harder when he was writing it himself and he told me by the time he's able to get part of a sentence written down he's forgotten what he was going to say in the rest of it.  

We do still do write down short answers, and some narratives (a type of writing he's more used to).   That gives him practice thinking while writing.   But with anything new or hard, or anytime he gets stuck, I allow him to dictate, because I don't want the "writing it down" to keep him from learning the "content writing."  Also, it's boosted his confidence to see that he can write well when that limitation is taken away.   We are looking at using speech to text to give him a little more independence.

Edited May 13, 2021 by goldenecho

[desertflower]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:55 PM, Lori D. said:

Personally, I'd vote for whatever helps her "lighten up and have fun with writing". 😄 JMO, but 5th/6th grades are a great time to explore with writing, now that she had some "formal" writing under her belt (sentences and short paragraphs), and to have some fun with writing before it has to "get formal" again in late middle school with essays and research papers...

For my writing-haters, what would NOT have helped would have been something that drills writing (Killgallon), or was formulaic (IEW). For us, that was Wordsmith Apprentice: fun cub reporter theme with silly cartoon introducing each new section of the newspaper; written in a light/informal tone to the student and done largely independently by the student; can do as big or small of a bite per day as works for the individual student; covers all 4 types of writing (descriptive, narrative, expository, persuasive); and moves from sentences into paragraphs. (here's the Cathy Duffy review of the Wordsmith series)

Absolutely, if a student is not understanding basic sentence structure, then go with Killgallon. Or if a student needs the formulaic process of IEW to see how to structure a paragraph, or that we come back to a piece of writing several times to revise and polish and proof-edit, then go for it!

re: spelling while writing -- I trained DS#2 who struggled mightily with spelling and writing ("stealth" dyslexia) to just ask in the moment "how do you spell _________?" Because when he was writing, it was about writing, not spelling. We put in plenty of time daily specifically working on spelling, so he needed encouragement with writing and to keep writing -- which meant taking spelling out of the equation for him.

I'd just go with oral answers or sometimes scribe for her for some of the non-LA subjects, until spelling and writing abilities start to catch up. How much "brain battery' energy does the child have for the day? If you make the child pour some of that "brain battery" energy into having to focus on  writing/spelling for subjects where spelling/writing is NOT the focus, there is that much LESS "brain battery" energy for actually engaging in those non-writing/spelling subjects... It's a variation on the "pick your battles" idea -- save the brain battery energy needed for spelling/writing for when you're doing spelling/writing, and frequently remove writing out of the non-writing subject area so she can relax and actually absorb and engage with the info for that non-writing subject.

And when the oral answers or scribing isn't an option, stress the "just ask" policy, which is that "it is always great to ask how to spell a word in the midst of writing so you can keep your flow of thoughts going". Never EVER be exasperated (even though inside you want to scream, lol), and always be cheerful and helpful when she does ask, by repeating correct pronunciation, and dividing into syllables for spelling, as a subtle reinforcement of spelling techniques:
- "Mom, how do you spell 'forest' "?
- "Forest? That's a great word! That's 2 syllables: "FOR-",  F-O-R, "-EST" e-s-t. Forest."


BEST of luck in finding what helps best. Warmest regards, Lori D.

Hi Lori,

What spelling program did you use for your stealth dyslexic child?  Thanks. 

[Lori D.]

25 minutes ago, desertflower said:

Hi Lori,

What spelling program did you use for your stealth dyslexic child?  Thanks. 

I went through 5 programs during elementary grades. None were a fit, largely because DS's brain just did NOT at all click with Spelling until about age 12.

At that point, I culled elements from different programs and resources, and created our own spelling program, based on The ABCs and All Their Tricks, using a lot of different practice methods (which I listed and explained in my post in this thread: "Doing Megawords with a terrible speller"). That post of mine also has links to some other programs or techniques you might look at to see if anything would be helpful.

Plus I had him doing a 1/2 page to 1 page a day from Megawords. We did both the individiualized/remedial DIY spelling + Megawords from 6th grade through 12th grade. One thing not listed below that also helped somewhat is learning to type, and having Spell Check flagging words that were misspelled.

@8filltheheart used Apples and Pears as the only thing that worked for her dyslexics.
@MerryAtHope did a back-up/run through of All About Spelling that worked for her struggling spellers.

BEST of luck in finding what helps your struggling speller! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

PS -- @desertflower -- one other thing that helped was the Dianne Craft writing 8s exercise and Callirobics -- the first helped DS connect the 2 brain hemispheres for better concentration and memory with things that were hard for him (Spelling, Writing, Math), and the second helped this writing become more natural and less like trying to create or copy artwork when writing each letter.

You might also look into doing 5-10 minutes of cross-lateral exercises in the morning before starting school to help strengthen the connections between the brain hemispheres. Also, natural supplements such as fish oil, primrose oil, 5-htp, and others (Dianne Craft lists some) can help with concentration.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori

[desertflower]

15 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

PS -- @desertflower -- one other thing that helped was the Dianne Craft writing 8s exercise and Callirobics -- the first helped DS connect the 2 brain hemispheres for better concentration and memory with things that were hard for him (Spelling, Writing, Math), and the second helped this writing become more natural and less like trying to create or copy artwork when writing each letter.

You might also look into doing 5-10 minutes of cross-lateral exercises in the morning before starting school to help strengthen the connections between the brain hemispheres. Also, natural supplements such as fish oil, primrose oil, 5-htp, and others (Dianne Craft lists some) can help with concentration.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori

Thanks a bunch!

[stripe]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:20 PM, Lori D. said:

PS -- @desertflower -- one other thing that helped was the Dianne Craft writing 8s exercise and Callirobics -- the first helped DS connect the 2 brain hemispheres for better concentration and memory with things that were hard for him (Spelling, Writing, Math), and the second helped this writing become more natural and less like trying to create or copy artwork when writing each letter.

You might also look into doing 5-10 minutes of cross-lateral exercises in the morning before starting school to help strengthen the connections between the brain hemispheres. Also, natural supplements such as fish oil, primrose oil, 5-htp, and others (Dianne Craft lists some) can help with concentration.

BEST of luck! Warmest regards, Lori

This is fantastic. Thanks!

One day I would love to know how you keep track of so many things. You are a marvel. 🧠 I salute you.

[stripe]

By the way, looking at Callirobics jogged a memory I had with my older kids — I’d stumbled across French handwriting exercises for kids in nursery school. Lots of the same shapes — waves, spirals, zig zags. I made them do lots of those. I think the website I’d used has disappeared, but I think it’s interesting that the French use the same approach (albeit not necessarily with the music). https://www.graphisme-ecriture.com/ps/ and http://www.graphisme-ecriture.com/graphisme-ms/ give some examples 

 

ETA you can run an internet search for : graphisme écriture maternelle   and see some good stuff. French education highly values handwriting, and they have little kids spend a lot of time doing all sorts of exercises, including “hands on” and full body activities, as you can see in this report from the Ministry of Education in their handwriting section; it is mostly photos of these activities.

Edited May 15, 2021 by stripe

[bluemongoose]

I have dyslexics. The older two are stealth dyslexics...I am guessing the younger is too, but not tested. I use All About Spelling with all of them. The middle kid took longer to be ready for spelling than the other two. It finally started to click around 11. My youngest one has used All About Reading as well as All About Spelling. He is reading with more fluency than his brothers did at his age. I think using All About Reading really helped with that. All are now reading on grade level. They do make the common mistakes of stealth dyslexia. They each have different areas where their dyslexia shows up more. 

 

Before All About Spelling/Reading we tried:

Sequential Spelling

Explode the Code

Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading

Rod and Staff Spelling

Megawords

Spelling Power

Bob Books

Pathway Readers

Sing, Spell, Read, and Write

 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, bluemongoose said:

I have dyslexics. The older two are stealth dyslexics...I am guessing the younger is too, but not tested. I use All About Spelling with all of them. The middle kid took longer to be ready for spelling than the other two. It finally started to click around 11. My youngest one has used All About Reading as well as All About Spelling. He is reading with more fluency than his brothers did at his age. I think using All About Reading really helped with that. All are now reading on grade level. They do make the common mistakes of stealth dyslexia. They each have different areas where their dyslexia shows up more. 

 

Before All About Spelling/Reading we tried:

Sequential Spelling

Explode the Code

Phonics Road to Spelling and Reading

Rod and Staff Spelling

Megawords

Spelling Power

Bob Books

Pathway Readers

Sing, Spell, Read, and Write

 

We did both AAR and AAS. They helped with rules, but not with actually reading and spelling if that makes sense. 

Abecedarian and me working with her using Barton techniques helped with reading, and for spelling i think Nessy has helped more than anything. But we had to get to that point with Nessy....she had to improve enough that it wasn't totally frustrating her. WE also did visual flashcards that turned common words into pictures, and that helped some too. But I've seen significant improvement from working through Hairy Words 1, and Nessy Reading and Spelling, but both those are recent. I'm hoping to continue to do it over the summer and see how far we get.