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12-15 year olds vaccine experiences


Katy
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3 minutes ago, forty-two said:

I understood her to mean a trial of vaccine vs Covid - that if you compared a group of vaccine-getters to an equivalent group of Covid-getters, the Covid-getters would have had far worse symptoms than the vaccine-getters, including for kids and teens (i.e. even though kids who get Covid have, on average, less severe symptoms than adults who get Covid, kids with Covid would still, on average, have more severe symptoms than kids who get the vaccine).  Thus her assertion that getting the vaccine is definitely better than *actually* getting Covid, even if getting the vaccine might not be better than a 5% chance of getting Covid.

I was actually weirdly visualizing a trial of COVID vs. placebo, like a normal controlled trial! But you're right that this is a better thought experiment if you imagine COVID vs. vaccine. 

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36 minutes ago, KSera said:

I hope getting Covid will start becoming rare. I'm not yet seeing enough places with high enough vaccination rates for that to be true.

There are definitely pockets of high vaccination, though. My zip code is something like 56% fully vaccinated, and that's the percentage of the whole population, not of the 18 and up population. I'm sure that by the middle of the summer, we'll be firmly in the 60s or even up to 70, and given that people in NYC also have some natural immunity (for better and worse), I would expect the risk of getting COVID to be pretty small locally. 

Of course, there's always travel. But discrete events never have a high risk, anyway. And we'd be traveling to other highly vaccinated pockets. 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I was actually weirdly visualizing a trial of COVID vs. placebo, like a normal controlled trial! But you're right that this is a better thought experiment if you imagine COVID vs. vaccine. 

So like 50% of people in trial get an at least theoretically inert placebo and no Covid, and the other 50% get Covid?

 I would agree that in that hypothetical if a large enough number of people got wild original Covid compared to an inert placebo and no Covid that the supposedly Inert placebo no Covid  group would be expected to do better, in theory .      
 

Yet even “just”  “normal saline” injection may not be benign:
 

see https://www.rxlist.com/normal-saline-side-effects-drug-center.htm

Common side effects of Normal Saline include:

  • fever, 
  • injection site swelling, 
  • redness, or 
  • infection. 

Contact your doctor if you experience serious side effects of Normal Saline including:

  • fast heartbeat, 
  • fever, 
  • rash, 
  • joint pain, or 
  • shortness of breath.


And  (bold added) 

SIDE EFFECTS. Reactions which may occur because of the solution or the technique of administration include febrile response, infection at the site of injection, venous thrombosis or phlebitis extending from the site of injection, extravasation, and hypervolemia.. If an adverse reaction does occur, discontinue the infusion, evaluate the patient, institute appropriate therapeutic countermeasures ...
 

 
It sounds so innocent yet it has been known for a long time that saline injection is NOT without its own potential problems and risks. So vaccines being trialed against it are not actually being trialed against a completely innocent inert substance. And I am sure that if I know this, so do Vaccine company people, and WHO, and so forth. Or if they do not I personally wonder  whether they should have their jobs. 
 
 
Lister Institute 1911:  (problems encountered in animal studies included fever, convulsions, hemorrhage, sudden death) 
 
 
ETA:
If someone on “control” side of trial had a fever from saline and then got a positive result from a >40 cycle PCR test for SARS2 it could easily look like that person came down with Covid when it might actually be saline reaction plus inflated PCR test . And that person might have been just fine but for being a “control” dosed with placebo. 
 
 
 

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Edited by Pen
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27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are definitely pockets of high vaccination, though. My zip code is something like 56% fully vaccinated, and that's the percentage of the whole population, not of the 18 and up population. I'm sure that by the middle of the summer, we'll be firmly in the 60s or even up to 70, and given that people in NYC also have some natural immunity (for better and worse), I would expect the risk of getting COVID to be pretty small locally. 

Of course, there's always travel. But discrete events never have a high risk, anyway. And we'd be traveling to other highly vaccinated pockets. 

Oh, I didn't realize you were referring only to the risk to your kids in your particular area. I was speaking more broadly about kids everywhere; some will be at relatively low risk of contracting covid due to high vaccination rates, and others much higher risk due to low vaccination rates. I do wonder how that works with the kids in school, though. Don't they make their own population, such that if Covid gets into a school with unvaccinated kids, it might spread at a high rate among them, even if most all of the adults are vaccinated?

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4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I didn't realize you were referring only to the risk to your kids in your particular area. I was speaking more broadly about kids everywhere; some will be at relatively low risk of contracting covid due to high vaccination rates, and others much higher risk due to low vaccination rates. I do wonder how that works with the kids in school, though. Don't they make their own population, such that if Covid gets into a school with unvaccinated kids, it might spread at a high rate among them, even if most all of the adults are vaccinated?

I don't think you'd expect that unless they were all hanging out with each other for some reason. Dense pockets of unvaccinated people are different than the occasional unvaccinated person. (That's why whole communities where people don't vax are so much scarier...) 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think you'd expect that unless they were all hanging out with each other for some reason

Isn't that what school is? And extracurriculars like dance class, basketball practice, etc? That's what I'm thinking might allow pockets of it in kids even in highly vaccinated areas. It has to get in there first, though, and the high vax rate will help suppress that.

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5 minutes ago, KSera said:

Isn't that what school is? And extracurriculars like dance class, basketball practice, etc? That's what I'm thinking might allow pockets of it in kids even in highly vaccinated areas. It has to get in there first, though, and the high vax rate will help suppress that.

No, I think you're misunderstanding me. The point is that if there's a certain R value with no one vaccinated, then assuming the unvaccinated kids aren't clustered together, the R value does get multiplied by the fraction of unvaccinated people. And that is probably enough to take it below 1. 

So, if every person normally infects 2 people with COVID, say, then with 70% of the school vaccinated, every person will on average infect 30% of that, which is 0.6 people. That will mean that the R value is below 1, and there will not be an outbreak. 

This calculation doesn't work if all the unvaccinated kids are hanging out together -- if they aren't spread out uniformly. But there's no reason to assume that. 

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think you'd expect that unless they were all hanging out with each other for some reason. Dense pockets of unvaccinated people are different than the occasional unvaccinated person. (That's why whole communities where people don't vax are so much scarier...) 

I hate to say it, but I get concerned because the ratio of unvaxxed to vaxxed in homeschooling populations is a lot higher than other activities in our local community at least where I am. Given the disporportionate number of minors relative to adults...I would say 30% would be an really optimistic number.

 

Edited by calbear
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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, I think you're misunderstanding me. The point is that if there's a certain R value with no one vaccinated, then assuming the unvaccinated kids aren't clustered together, the R value does get multiplied by the fraction of unvaccinated people. And that is probably enough to take it below 1. 

So, if every person normally infects 2 people with COVID, say, then with 70% of the school vaccinated, every person will on average infect 30% of that, which is 0.6 people. That will mean that the R value is below 1, and there will not be an outbreak. 

This calculation doesn't work if all the unvaccinated kids are hanging out together -- if they aren't spread out uniformly. But there's no reason to assume that. 

Wait…won’t ALL elementary kids be unvaccinated and clustered together in buildings once school starts? 

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Just now, calbear said:

I hate to say it, but I get concerned because the ratio of unvaxxed to vaxxed in homeschooling populations is a lot higher than other activities in our local community at least where I am. Given the disporportionate number of minors relative to adults...I would say 30% would be an really optimistic number.

Oh, yes. Homeschooling communities are precisely the kind of population in which viruses rage. Which is maybe something I need to think about when I think about the chance of issues with the vaccine!! 

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Just now, HeartString said:

Wait…won’t ALL elementary kids be unvaccinated and clustered together in buildings once school starts? 

Oh, I see... you're thinking about before they can get vaccinated. Yes, that makes sense -- if COVID gets into a population of unvaccinated kids that are all in school together, then you might very well expect COVID to go through the school 😕 . 

I was thinking ahead to when kids are largely vaccinated, I guess. But you're right that this is silly and may not even happen. I keep thinking that kids are likely to start being vaxxed in September, but maybe that won't turn out like that. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, yes. Homeschooling communities are precisely the kind of population in which viruses rage. Which is maybe something I need to think about when I think about the chance of issues with the vaccine!! 

I never thought I would say I feel more concerned about the homeschooling community than I do about the general community. I am actually feeling quite good about my zip code. Sadly, homeschooling world is opposite world. 

Of the total population, about 67.3% have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, and about 46.3% (23,105 people) have been fully vaccinated.

Of the population over 12, 86.3% have gotten at least one dose and 59.3% have been fully vaccinated.

 

 

Edited by calbear
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3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

We are in a phase 3 trial ... 

it seems very early to be concluding “obviously true” 

 

I think 2024 after phase 3 ends in 2023 might be better  for “obviously “ statements if situations are obvious by then

 

I would prefer to read  something like it currently appears that ____  

 

Maybe you are trying to convince the vaccine hesitant, but at least speaking for myself, it  doesn’t come off the way you think if that’s the case 

 

I think especially as a numbers and statistics person, (eta) probably someone who people look to for accuracy in regard to numbers, statistics and similar, I think the more you are honest, transparent and do not exaggerate, or use hyperbole,  the better. 

 

 


vaccines have not been proved to prevent transmission 

 I have no way to conclude that being in a highly vaccinated area will be protective 

children were already at extremely low risk with the wild virus

but if leaky vaccine problems causing “hotter” virus emerge that may no longer apply

Eta: but even if “hotter” virus emerges from “leaky vaccines” it does not necessarily mean taking more of the leaky vaccines is the right approach.  

Vaccines have been shown to nearly eliminate transmission.  They were being very cautious and saying that we didn’t know for sure a couple of months ago, but it’s now been shown to be an incredibly low risk.  

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Just now, calbear said:

I never thought I would say I feel more concerned about the homeschooling community than I do about the general community. I am actually feeling quite good about my zip code:

Oh, why wouldn't you have thought that? Maybe it's just my area, but we have a LOT more anti-vaxxers homeschooling than in the general community. 

 

Just now, calbear said:

Of the total population, about 67.3% have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, and about 46.3% (23,105 people) have been fully vaccinated.

Of the population over 12, 86.3% have gotten at least one dose and 59.3% have been fully vaccinated.

Nice 🙂 . 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, why wouldn't you have thought that? Maybe it's just my area, but we have a LOT more anti-vaxxers homeschooling than in the general community. 

 

Nice 🙂 . 

This is a general statement non-specific to Covid. I never would have thought I would ever have thought that about the homeschooling world in all my years homeschooling until this year. It's disconcerting and sad. It's coupled with realizing that there are things I can't unsee after this year which has impacted and changed relationships and community. I'm not the only one in this boat. 

The homeschooling community here is absorbing a lot more anti-vaxxers because this year, a lot of MEs (medical exemptions) have been revoked...we are getting a flood of newbies who don't necessarily want to be homeschooling. That actually changes the dynamics of the homeschooling community as well. People aren't necessarily vested in creating communities or a vision for homeschooling.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I see... you're thinking about before they can get vaccinated. Yes, that makes sense -- if COVID gets into a population of unvaccinated kids that are all in school together, then you might very well expect COVID to go through the school 😕 . 

I was thinking ahead to when kids are largely vaccinated, I guess. But you're right that this is silly and may not even happen. I keep thinking that kids are likely to start being vaxxed in September, but maybe that won't turn out like that. 

Right. That explains why we were talking past eachother. I was thinking of the populations of kids who can't be vaccinated. And also in the context of the comments I made earlier that you were responding to, about whether with enough population coverage in the over 16s, could kids no longer need to be vaccinated. So, my comments were in considering a population of fully unvaccinated kids.

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13 minutes ago, calbear said:

This is a general statement non-specific to Covid. I never would have thought I would ever have thought that about the homeschooling world in all my years homeschooling until this year. It's disconcerting and sad. It's coupled with realizing that there are things I can't unsee after this year which has impacted and changed relationships and community. I'm not the only one in this boat. 

The homeschooling community here is absorbing a lot more anti-vaxxers because this year, a lot of MEs (medical exemptions) have been revoked...we are getting a flood of newbies who don't necessarily want to be homeschooling. That actually changes the dynamics of the homeschooling community as well. People aren't necessarily vested in creating communities or a vision for homeschooling.

Yes, we already got that flood, since NY revoked non-medical exemptions already. But to be honest, I always expected homeschoolers to be on the anti-vaccine side, because that's an "alternative" culture, and homeschooling is alternative as well. I saw the same thing with babywearing -- I was really into babywearing when I had small babies, and those communities also had ridiculous levels of anti-vaccine sentiment. For the same reason. 

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10 minutes ago, KSera said:

Right. That explains why we were talking past eachother. I was thinking of the populations of kids who can't be vaccinated. And also in the context of the comments I made earlier that you were responding to, about whether with enough population coverage in the over 16s, could kids no longer need to be vaccinated. So, my comments were in considering a population of fully unvaccinated kids.

It's true that I was probably reasoning too much from my own kids, who don't go to school and aren't going to go to large group classes anytime soon. 

I expect we'll vaccinate our kids unless they find non-rare vaccine side effects, honestly. There's something to be said for peace of mind and not having to constantly calculate and recalculate probabilities... 

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1 hour ago, calbear said:

FWIW, returning to the OT. My 12yo got his first shot 8 days ago. No side effects except for a sore arm for a day.

My DS12 got his first shot this afternoon. We will see how he feels tomorrow...

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3 hours ago, HeartString said:

Vaccines have been shown to nearly eliminate transmission.  They were being very cautious and saying that we didn’t know for sure a couple of months ago, but it’s now been shown to be an incredibly low risk.  


Personally, I’ll revisit that when the phase 3 trial is over  .

 

Unfortunately given lack of “transparency” and manipulation of PCR cycle rates, I don’t see that anything has been legitimately shown. All they have to do is reduce PCR cycle enough and it will look like no transmission. Raise it and it looks like a lot. 
 

I honestly hope that you will turn out to  be right and that it will turn out to be as wonderful as you think.  This is a situation where I hope to be able to say “I guess you were right and I was wrong” in 2024, not a situation where I want to be saying “I warned you.”  

 

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3 hours ago, calbear said:

I hate to say it, but I get concerned because the ratio of unvaxxed to vaxxed in homeschooling populations is a lot higher than other activities in our local community at least where I am. Given the disporportionate number of minors relative to adults...I would say 30% would be an really optimistic number.

 


I don’t know that they would join your homeschooling groups, or even WTM, but I expect a lot of parents who do not want their children to be given the shots nor to be exposed to people who got the shots are likely to shift to homeschooling.   It may be in separate pods so you may not need to worry about unvaccinated people joining you if you are vaccinated.   They may not want to as they may consider the vaccinated likely dangers. 

 

 

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If anyone is curious where all this talk about the PCR cycle rate keeps coming from, I thought this was a pretty thorough explanation: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-covid-19-casedemic/

(spoiler: it’s one of those things that’s big in conspiracy circle camps seeking to downplay the pandemic and portray Covid19 as being purposely designed to control people)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Pen said:


I don’t know that they would join your homeschooling groups, or even WTM, but I expect a lot of parents who do not want their children to be given the shots nor to be exposed to people who got the shots are likely to shift to homeschooling.   It may be in separate pods so you may not need to worry about unvaccinated people joining you if you are vaccinated.   They may not want to as they may consider the vaccinated likely dangers. 

 

 

I do wonder how long they will consider us vaccinated people to be unsafe. How long after the vaccine do we stop shedding the infertility causing whatever whatevers?  Weeks? months? Never?  

Edited by HeartString
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20 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

My 13yo and 15yo are scheduled for tomorrow and I wish I hadn’t read about the rare heart inflammation issue.

I'm not sure yet if it's even a real effect, but it was after the second dose in all the cases they know about.  If you go ahead with the first dose you can cancel the second if it turns out to be a real effect that isn't justified in your risk/benefit analysis.  You could also delay longer than three weeks if necessary, which is looking to give better immunity, but you would probably only want to do that if the risk of covid infection in the meantime was low.

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1 hour ago, HeartString said:

I do wonder how long they will consider us vaccinated people to be unsafe. How long after the vaccine do we stop shedding the infertility causing whatever whatevers?  Weeks? months? Never?  


I don’t know.   Maybe months?  My understanding is they are looking for more information.  
 

My local area has a mixture of people who have and have not gotten shots, people who have  and have not had the illness itself. We don’t seem to be avoiding each other. But I guess if some are, I would not know because they’d be hiding out and I would probably not see them at mixed school functions and so on.  

 

From what I have read though I think it may be months for some as it gets figured out. I don’t personally know anyone pregnant right now.   I would think caution in that case might be duration of the pregnancy plus early newborn stage. So that could be over a year. 
 

and I’ve heard of a doctor who is not taking vaccinated patients because his receptionist is pregnant 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Pen said:

I’ve heard of a doctor who is not taking vaccinated patients because his receptionist is pregnant 

Nevermind. Need to take my own advice. 

Edited by KSera
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DS14 got his first shot yesterday. A bit of a sore arm but that’s about it. We are so happy, because he is heading to a week long overnight camp in July. 
 

Yes, I won’t be going to any homeschool meetings anytime soon if ever. 

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5 hours ago, Pen said:


I don’t know that they would join your homeschooling groups, or even WTM, but I expect a lot of parents who do not want their children to be given the shots nor to be exposed to people who got the shots are likely to shift to homeschooling.   It may be in separate pods so you may not need to worry about unvaccinated people joining you if you are vaccinated.   They may not want to as they may consider the vaccinated likely dangers. 

 

 

From what I can see from the comments locally...they were perfectly fine with staying in public schools until they lost the MEs, so I don't really see that they would place a high priority on avoiding the vax'd population. I also notice a lot of...who can I pay to do teach my kids or where do I find a classes for my kids. There are also questions about what co-ops exists where can I drop off my kids when the operative word they don't comprehend is co-op...

There are a surprising number of people saying I need a homeschool program that is 5 days a week. The homeschooling community is like what??? that's school not homeschooling. Private schools are no longer open to non-vax'd either. Or they are coming in thinking the homeschooling community has built a lot of pods (aka microschools) when that's never been what has been going on in the homeschooling community.

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19 minutes ago, calbear said:

From what I can see from the comments locally...they were perfectly fine with staying in public schools until they lost the MEs, so I don't really see that they would place a high priority on avoiding the vax'd population. I also notice a lot of...who can I pay to do teach my kids or where do I find a classes for my kids. There are also questions about what co-ops exists where can I drop off my kids when the operative word they don't comprehend is co-op...

There are a surprising number of people saying I need a homeschool program that is 5 days a week. The homeschooling community is like what??? that's school not homeschooling. Private schools are no longer open to non-vax'd either. Or they are coming in thinking the homeschooling community has built a lot of pods (aka microschools) when that's never been what has been going on in the homeschooling community.

One think I don’t understand is why homeschoolers are allowed exceptions while PS kids aren’t. I get these kids aren’t in the PS classroom but they are in music groups, gyms, dance studios... it’s not like they are sitting home alone isolated. 
If religious/moral exemptions are allowed, then they should be allowed for anybody who wants it, and if they aren’t, then they need to be banned for all. I just don’t think it makes sense to treat homeschoolers differently based on false assumption that these kids don’t interact with other kids.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

One think I don’t understand is why homeschoolers are allowed exceptions while PS kids aren’t. I get these kids aren’t in the PS classroom but they are in music groups, gyms, dance studios... it’s not like they are sitting home alone isolated. 
If religious/moral exemptions are allowed, then they should be allowed for anybody who wants it, and if they aren’t, then they need to be banned for all. I just don’t think it makes sense to treat homeschoolers differently based on false assumption that these kids don’t interact with other kids.  

I think it comes down to whether or not gov't funding is tied to it. The big issue that I am sure you are aware of in CA is the use of funding via charter schools for said programs for charter students. There are these quasi class days set up by enrichment centers which are operated outside of the charter school which are predominantly paid for by gov't funds. The current Assembly bill looks like it will drastically affect these centers as well as the other vendors serving the charter market.

 

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5 hours ago, calbear said:

I think it comes down to whether or not gov't funding is tied to it. The big issue that I am sure you are aware of in CA is the use of funding via charter schools for said programs for charter students. There are these quasi class days set up by enrichment centers which are operated outside of the charter school which are predominantly paid for by gov't funds. The current Assembly bill looks like it will drastically affect these centers as well as the other vendors serving the charter market.

 

But what does that have to do with vaccinations? 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

One think I don’t understand is why homeschoolers are allowed exceptions while PS kids aren’t. I get these kids aren’t in the PS classroom but they are in music groups, gyms, dance studios... it’s not like they are sitting home alone isolated. 
If religious/moral exemptions are allowed, then they should be allowed for anybody who wants it, and if they aren’t, then they need to be banned for all. I just don’t think it makes sense to treat homeschoolers differently based on false assumption that these kids don’t interact with other kids.  

The vaccines are mandated in schools because the schooling is legally compulsory.  A child that is allergic or immune-compromised must still be schooled, and the government must make that available and safe for them.  That means the other kids have to be vaccinated to provide herd immunity. 

Ballet, soccer, choir, etc. are not legally required of children with health issues, so their parents can choose for them to abstain.  Thus, the vaccine requirement doesn't apply.

Edited by Syllieann
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8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

One think I don’t understand is why homeschoolers are allowed exceptions while PS kids aren’t. I get these kids aren’t in the PS classroom but they are in music groups, gyms, dance studios... it’s not like they are sitting home alone isolated. 
If religious/moral exemptions are allowed, then they should be allowed for anybody who wants it, and if they aren’t, then they need to be banned for all. I just don’t think it makes sense to treat homeschoolers differently based on false assumption that these kids don’t interact with other kids.  

How would that be mandated?  Anything that is required will come from individual states applied to public schools, or individual districts, cities, and schools.  I think it is highly unlikely the government would mandate for private organizations.  I don't think it should even though I am wildly in favor of vaccination.  I am part of a secular homeschool co-op that is considering making the vaccine a requirement for in person attendance in the fall.  Some other organizations, private schools, etc may require as well.  So I think as time goes on, we may see individual organizations and businesses making those kind of decisions.  However, if covid rates naturally plummet in high vax areas, individual organizations may not feel the need.  

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I’ve noticed a bunch of “confused” emojis on my posts. Is “confused” actually meant? Or choosing that emoji because it has a disgruntled look and you r using it as shorthand to mean you don’t like what I wrote? 
 

If actually confused, what about? 
 

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, calbear said:

From what I can see from the comments locally...they were perfectly fine with staying in public schools until they lost the MEs, so I don't really see that they would place a high priority on avoiding the vax'd population. I also notice a lot of...who can I pay to do teach my kids or where do I find a classes for my kids. There are also questions about what co-ops exists where can I drop off my kids when the operative word they don't comprehend is co-op...

There are a surprising number of people saying I need a homeschool program that is 5 days a week. The homeschooling community is like what??? that's school not homeschooling. Private schools are no longer open to non-vax'd either. Or they are coming in thinking the homeschooling community has built a lot of pods (aka microschools) when that's never been what has been going on in the homeschooling community.


You are in more or less San Fran area?  I have some people I know  in that area (but not with school age kids) and what you are saying makes sense for there from what bits I have gathered from them 
 

I think people not familiar with homeschooling and just going for it because of desperation and worry that the shots could prove very very bad long term obviously are going to be very confused. New homeschoolers IME tend to be confused and lost even in more ideal starting circumstances. 


Otoh, I know people in Southern Cal - especially in Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino areas - who have described the situation differently.  Perhaps more people are wanting to stay clear of others who are vaxxed in that area. Or maybe just chance of who I know where. 

Edited by Pen
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3 minutes ago, Pen said:


You are in more or less San Fran area?  I have some people I know  in that area (but not with school age kids) and what you are saying makes sense for there from what bits I have gathered from them 
 

Otoh, I know people in Southern Cal - especially in Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino areas - who have described the situation differently.  

San Fran and San Bernardino are practically 2 different planets, and Orange County is a whole different planet from the other 2, so I would expect them to have different feels around Covid.  

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27 minutes ago, HeartString said:

San Fran and San Bernardino are practically 2 different planets, and Orange County is a whole different planet from the other 2, so I would expect them to have different feels around Covid.  


Im sure you are right in a sense. Yet I find the huge rift between people so as to be described metaphorically as a different “planet” extremely sad. And perhaps even dangerous.  
 

I find the sense that fellow humans, even fellow members of same country and same state (in some places perhaps same County) are on a completely different “planet,” much like the dismissive and critical “What planet are you on?” comment that I have seen and received from people on WTM.  (Oddly only on this website of people supposedly  trying to teach their kids to be ready to enter the “great conversation “ have I run into that.)  It does not lead to useful exchange of ideas or greater understandings perhaps on both sides in my experience.  

I hope to have understanding and sense of sharing the same universe as each other even if I meet people from actual other planets. 
 

I feel sure that anyone I know in Orange County and surrounding areas trying to protect their children from what they think is dangerous are just as loving and caring of their children as anyone up in San Francisco area trying to get their children protected by getting vaccines. 

Edited by Pen
Clarity (or not) - and fixing autocorrect-
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Syllieann said:

The vaccines are mandated in schools because the schooling is legally compulsory.  A child that is allergic or immune-compromised must still be schooled, and the government must make that available and safe for them.  That means the other kids have to be vaccinated to provide herd immunity. 

Ballet, soccer, choir, etc. are not legally required of children with health issues, so their parents can choose for them to abstain.  Thus, the vaccine requirement doesn't apply.

OK. My assumptions were faulty. I assumed vaccines were mandated to create herd immunity (say for measles and such) to protect those who couldn’t be vaccinated as well. I didn’t realize vulnerable were expected to sit at home. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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27 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

OK. My assumptions were faulty. I assumed vaccines were mandated to create herd immunity (say for measles and such) to protect those who couldn’t be vaccinated as well. I didn’t realize vulnerable were expected to sit at home. 


One way or another vulnerable often end up sitting at home...   I am part of a group who can’t handle perfumes and related products which largely means having to stay home as church, theaters etc tend to be full of that sort of thing.

 

As for CV shots, I do not think that legal mandates can be legally made to take an experimental drug, vaccine, etc.  
 

  I guess that may be taken into courts at some stage. 

 

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Just now, Pen said:


One way or another vulnerable often end up sitting at home...   I am part of a group who can’t handle perfumes and related products which largely means having to stay home as church, theaters etc tend to be full of that sort of thing.

 

As for CV shots, I do not think that legal mandates can be legally made to take an experimental drug, vaccine, etc.  
 

  I guess that may be taken into courts at some stage. 

 

We were prohibited from wearing perfume during choir rehearsals and performances. As a mother of asthmatic, I completely get it. I have a collection of perfume at home (all gifts) that I never wear. 🙂 

I am not talking about experimental (Covid)vaccines though. I am talking about established things, like measles. There are children who might not be able to vaccinated for medical reasons. I would hate for them not to be able to visit Disneyland or join a dance studio plot generally participate in life. But that’s what it looks like to me. 

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24 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

We were prohibited from wearing perfume during choir rehearsals and performances. As a mother of asthmatic, I completely get it. I have a collection of perfume at home (all gifts) that I never wear. 🙂 

I am not talking about experimental (Covid)vaccines though. I am talking about established things, like measles. There are children who might not be able to vaccinated for medical reasons. I would hate for them not to be able to visit Disneyland or join a dance studio plot generally participate in life. But that’s what it looks like to me. 

It’s the balance of public interest versus personal autonomy.  Public interest says everyone takes childhood vaccines.  Personal autonomy says I get to decide what to put into my body or my children’s body.  It’s a complicated dance we do.  
Sometimes I do feel like they should be mandated and be done with it.  But really I don’t think we want the government to have that authority over our bodily autonomy.  That has far reaching implications.  There’s no way to make it “fair”. 

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13 hours ago, HeartString said:

I do wonder how long they will consider us vaccinated people to be unsafe. How long after the vaccine do we stop shedding the infertility causing whatever whatevers?  Weeks? months? Never?  

We have a parent on my kids’ baseball team who weekly sends out group texts that if you’re vaccinated for Covid please stay away from her kid.

She was going on about this at practice last week and so my 9-year-old daughter piped up that the reason her mother wasn’t there was because I was busy at a vaccination clinic vaccinating 12 year olds(DH made sure to tell me all about it). So now that parent doesn’t even want her kid near my kids because....reasons?

I blame a great deal of scientific illiteracy.

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1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

We have a parent on my kids’ baseball team who weekly sends out group texts that if you’re vaccinated for Covid please stay away from her kid.

She was going on about this at practice last week and so my 9-year-old daughter piped up that the reason her mother wasn’t there was because I was busy at a vaccination clinic vaccinating 12 year olds(DH made sure to tell me all about it). So now that parent doesn’t even want her kid near my kids because....reasons?

I blame a great deal of scientific illiteracy.

Wow.  I mean I have no words.  

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, HeartString said:

It’s the balance of public interest versus personal autonomy.  Public interest says everyone takes childhood vaccines.  Personal autonomy says I get to decide what to put into my body or my children’s body.  It’s a complicated dance we do.  
Sometimes I do feel like they should be mandated and be done with it.  But really I don’t think we want the government to have that authority over our bodily autonomy.  That has far reaching implications.  There’s no way to make it “fair”. 

Well, I think not having measles outbreaks is in the interest of everybody.

I understand not mandating flu shots or HPV shot or the likes. But some things (highly infection and/or deadly) though society decided was worth mandating. The way I look at it, kids either public schoolers or homeschoolers are engaged in a ton of activities. If these illnesses are so dangerous that mandate is necessary in schools, then it should be necessary for just being out in public because what difference does it make is you spread it school or a dance studio? But yes, we don’t need it for every single possible vaccine.  And I am not advocating Covid shots to be required either here. Just musing over the system a little. 
 

Edited by Roadrunner
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

We have a parent on my kids’ baseball team who weekly sends out group texts that if you’re vaccinated for Covid please stay away from her kid.

She was going on about this at practice last week and so my 9-year-old daughter piped up that the reason her mother wasn’t there was because I was busy at a vaccination clinic vaccinating 12 year olds(DH made sure to tell me all about it). So now that parent doesn’t even want her kid near my kids because....reasons?

I blame a great deal of scientific illiteracy.

I'm rather enjoying the The anti-vaxxers experiencing a bit of the shoe on the other foot.  I'm sure she'd tell other parents that they shouldn't sign up for things if they do not want their kids around unvaccinated people.  Maybe she shouldn't have signed her kid up for baseball for the same reason.  I'm coaching machine pitch this year and I would get quite a case of the giggles, I'm sure, if a parent said that to me.

Edited by Syllieann
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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Well, I think not having measles outbreaks is in the interest of everybody.

I understand not mandating flu shots or HPV shot or the likes. But some things (highly infection and/or deadly) though society decided was worth mandating. The way I look at it, kids either public schoolers or homeschoolers are engaged in a ton of activities. If these illnesses are so dangerous that mandate is necessary in schools, then it should be necessary for just being out in public because what difference does it make is you spread it school or a dance studio? But yes, we don’t need it for every single possible vaccine.  And I am not advocating Covid shots to be required either here. Just musing over the system a little. 
 

It is a tricky system.  Partly because so many do just get the shots, so the one or two people not getting it doesn’t effect anything. They get to coast off those of us that do get it.  Which makes me angry sometimes because I’m taking the (minuscule) risk and they aren’t, yet we both benefit.  But measles doesn’t need to be mandated further most places because enough people take it to avoid outbreaks.  The measles vax works well enough that if there is an outbreak among the unvaccinated it doesn’t tend to bother the vaccinated.  So it’s all circular.  

 

(obviously I don’t get angry about people that can’t medically get them. That’s what community is for, to protect vulnerable people.  If your child can’t get vaccinated I am GLAD that my child’s shot also protects your child)

Edited by HeartString
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