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S/O American Families— Wondering about how the 2 yrs of CC works


popmom
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I think I read this correctly...that California already has 2 years of free CC? I am curious how this works. Did 4 year institutions in California have to make changes to accommodate these students coming out of their 2 yrs of CC? One of my daughters majored in graphic design. It is a lock step program from day 1 semester 1. If dd had done 2 years of CC prior, it would have been a HUGE waste of credit hours and would not have lessened the financial burden by much at all. Also, she would have been at a severe disadvantage in being accepted into the program —it’s highly competitive and only 15 students are accepted into 2 cohorts—one that starts summer semester of sophomore year and one that starts fall semester of sophomore year. Not a single student in dd’s cohort transferred in from another school. 

Graphic design isn’t the only program that works this way. Nursing, engineering, communication disorders are just a few others I’m aware that operate similarly at this university.

My experience having had 3 kids in college so far is that this is becoming more the norm. Whereas when I was in college, the first 2 years were less specific—and it wasn’t a big deal to change your major. Also made it a lot easier to transfer in from other schools or CC. 

Is the 2 years of CC for getting a 2 yr degree? Or is it in order to transfer on to get a bachelors degree? Or both??

I guess I’m not seeing the benefit—especially in my state where CC is very inexpensive as it is. I would love to hear from anyone who can shed some light on this. Especially if you’ve personally benefited from it. I’m really hoping my youngest will go the CC route. And she wants to major in psychology which is one of the programs that I think is still relatively compatible with the CC route.

Edited by popmom
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CCs work closely in CA with UC and CSU systems, and the system is designed in a way to absorb CC transfers into the four year schools. Actually I would say it works really well in CA. In fact CA has a guaranteed acceptance into a UC system for qualified students. 
And small class sizes, tutoring centers, and good advising are especially helpful for kids who might have slacked off in high school and need an extra helping hand. 
If you satisfy certain requirements at a CC, you don’t have to take any general Ed courses at a UC. For every major a transfer route is well articulated. 

You can certainly get a 2 year degree and be done, or you can focus on the transfer route. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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Not in CA, but some general comments. I am an academic advisor at a 4 year uni who advises incoming freshmen as well as transfer students. Some degree programs simply cannot be structured so that the first two years are only gen ed courses - you can't fit the technical courses for a physics or engineering degree into two years. 

How much 2 years at CC shorten the time depends on the quality of the CC and on the student's preparation and abilities - some transfer students are only able to take math through precalculus, while others complete calculus based physics and differential equations at CC and do join the 4 year program almost seamlessly for the 3rd year.

But even transfer students who don't save two years still benefit: they may still save some time, or can lighten their schedules (and tuition bills!), or have room for a second major or internships or extracurriculars. 

I see the most important benefit of free CC in making a college education accessible for students who might otherwise not go to college at all. 

Edited by regentrude
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In CA you know what you need to complete to be considered for a transfer into a chosen major. 
Lots of STEM kids who transfer into engineering take three years at our local CC to get through all the requirements mostly because they aren’t often ready to start right away in Calculus and need some remediation. 
My son has several friends who are going into Cal Poly SLO next year having completed the first two years at a local CC. 
 

I will also add that dual enrollment is also free in CA. 

Edited by Roadrunner
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24 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

In CA you know what you need to complete to be considered for a transfer into a chosen major. 
Lots of STEM kids who transfer into engineering take three years at our local CC to get through all the requirements mostly because they aren’t often ready to start right away in Calculus and need some remediation. 
My son has several friends who are going into Cal Poly SLO next year having completed the first two years at a local CC. 
 

I will also add that dual enrollment is also free in CA. 

They spend 3 years at CC before taking Cal 1? That’s like high school do over! Most STEM kids take cal 1 first semester of freshman year. How long are these kids in school total? Or maybe I misunderstood entirely—yeah pretty sure it’s me. 

 

Edited by popmom
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46 minutes ago, popmom said:

 

Is the 2 years of CC for getting a 2 yr degree? Or is it in order to transfer on to get a bachelors degree? Or both??

AA/S-T is associate degree for transfer. https://www2.calstate.edu/apply/transfer


A person can also opt to complete an AA/AS

California has the assist website for students to look up articulation agreements https://assist.org

Then there is Transfer Admission Guarantee (TAG) program for California community college students 

https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/transfer-requirements/transfer-admission-guarantee-tag.html

Dual enrollment is free for a certain number of credits per quarter/semester.

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5 minutes ago, popmom said:

They spend 3 years at CC before taking Cal 1? That’s like high school do over! Most STEM kids take cal 1 first semester of freshman year. 

I wish.

Many, many students at my STEM uni are not testing into calc 1 as freshmen ( this includes students who took calc 1 in high school). The number of those who have to take more than one semester of remedial math is disturbing.

High school math teaching really really sucks at many schools. 

EtA: My school had to create a new two semester calc 1 course which is slower paced and contains enough time to remediate algebra and trig because so many students aren't ready.

Edited by regentrude
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6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I wish.

Many, many students at my STEM uni are not testing into calc 1 as freshmen ( this includes students who took calc 1 in high school). The number of those who have to take more than one semester of remedial math is disturbing.

High school math teaching really really sucks at many schools. 

Ok I’m really curious now. What is the average ACT or SAT score for admission? I’m guessing this is how they gauge who needs remediation??

Edited by popmom
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26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

At my school, the 25/75 percentile scores for the ACT are 26-32

That’s interesting. We’re an Auburn family. 🙂 The 25/75 percentile scores are 25-31. Freshmen entering Samuel Ginn College of Engineering average 29.6. I know they have a special summer session for STEM incoming freshmen who score below a certain threshold on the math portion (which shouldn’t be a factor when you consider what’s on the math portion of the ACT). Or maybe if student didn’t take calculus in hs?? I can’t remember.  Its crash course to prep for Cal 1. It seems to be pretty successful. The students take an exam at the end to determine their placement. 
 

One of my dds actually went through it because she started out in Computer Science and didn’t take calculus in hs. Edited because I remembered that she didn’t do well enough to place in cal 1. She didn’t have accommodations in place that soon. She did okay in pre cal. Then she changed her major and never had to take calculus, so I’ll never know how that would have turned out.

Edited by popmom
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46 minutes ago, popmom said:

They spend 3 years at CC before taking Cal 1? That’s like high school do over! Most STEM kids take cal 1 first semester of freshman year. How long are these kids in school total? Or maybe I misunderstood entirely—yeah pretty sure it’s me. 

 

No sorry, they spend three years to complete requirements in order to transfer as juniors. So many STEM transfers would need to complete Calculus 1-3, diff eq, and linear algebra, and often engineering physics. Now to take physics you need to be in calculus 3 here, so to get it all under the belt, many take 3 years. 

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1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

No sorry, they spend three years to complete requirements in order to transfer as juniors. So many STEM transfers would need to complete Calculus 1-3, diff eq, and linear algebra, and often engineering physics. Now to take physics you need to be in calculus 3 here, so to get it all under the belt, many take 3 years. 

That makes sense!

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Educational opportunities vary so much by location and region.  I grew up in a state in which community colleges were virtually non-existent; there were some small community college campuses but I cannot think of a single person that I knew who went to a community college.  There was a technical school locally which is where one would go if they wanted to be a draftsman, bookkeeper, a nurse (but not RN), and other types of trades.  It was vocational training and not a stepping stone to a four-year college.  No general education requirements were offered.  I did know a number of people who chose that route quite successfully.  In that type of environment I am not sure what two years of free community college would be like.

In Texas we have a number of community colleges and my experience with students coming from the community college system has varied widely.  Some provide a great education and others I would rate as poor for a high school, much less college.  I just looked up tuition rates, and I see that some in the state are as low as $60 per credit hour, so 2 years would run under $4000.  One of the better community colleges I was looking at was $230 per credit hour--so almost four times as expensive; the four-year state university in that same area (a few miles away) is $260 per credit hour--so not much more than the community college.  

Given the differences in the ways that states have approached college funding, with some pouring more into flagship schools, some more into regional schoolsl, and some more into a community college system, I think that our perception of what "free community college eduation for two years" looks like.  

 

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My CC (and I think it’s state wide, but I’m not looking it up) has transfer agreements with most to all state schools in our state. I can go to my local state school website and look up every one of my CC’s courses to see how it will transfer. It’s basically 1:1 unless you take some dodgy electives. Or if you drastically change majors, of course.  My state school’s degree requirements are, in every major I’ve checked, 1/2 or more available at our CC. So, those first two years.

Edited by Carrie12345
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5 hours ago, popmom said:

They spend 3 years at CC before taking Cal 1? That’s like high school do over! Most STEM kids take cal 1 first semester of freshman year. How long are these kids in school total? Or maybe I misunderstood entirely—yeah pretty sure it’s me. 

 

A high school do over is exactly what some kids need though.  Remember that many high schools are really bad, which isn’t really a students fault.  Only about 1/3 of high school graduates graduate with proficiency in math and reading.  

Or kids who for whatever reason didn’t take high school seriously and then decide to turn things around.  
 

Not being ready for calculus senior year shouldn’t automatically close doors forever.  

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NJ has agreements between the CC's and 4 year schools so that credits will transfer.  What people need to watch for is some things will only transfer as electives and not meet major requirements.  

Prices vary greatly among CCs here as well, for both regular students and DE.    Some you pay full price and have to wait to register for DE, others are cheaper.  I don't think any DE is free but I haven't looked at the whole state, just my area. 

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We have free CC in our state with decent grades and a bit of volunteering (if you go to PS- it is not available to hs'ers). Making CC free doesn't mean you are giving free college to the wealthy. Those that have the means do not use the program. It makes college accessible for those that couldn't go otherwise. Our local CC has articulation agreements with nearly all the state colleges so you know exactly what will transfer and what will not. Maybe not all could utilize both years depending on their degree program but most can. It is a huge savings because not only do they get 2 yrs free they can continue to live at home which is half the cost of going off to college. 

For example- the local CC is about 5k a year- the state college closest to me is around 10k for tuition and 10k for room and board. Doing that first 2 yrs living at home for free and then transferring saves a substantial amount of money. Unless you get a free ride scholarship(rare) or are doing a specialty program it is nearly always worth it to go to the CC first. Even with this program there are few that take advantage. I think last year I noticed about 25% had done the program of the local graduates.

Even my middle class friend is sending her son off to the 4 yr school. He is only getting a couple of small scholarships (the same size that dh got when he transferred from the CC). I do not understand it. Even if he could only do 1 yr it would be worthwhile.

Also, the CC does have some 2 yr degrees that are worthwhile to do and make a decent living (nurse and OTA). Even in doing low level jobs if they have that 2 yr degree they are going to have a leg up on those that do not.

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My current state's cc's are not free.  Looks like most list their in-state tuition as around $5,500/year, but of course aid is available.  I believe they have agreements with state colleges so that the transfer process is pretty hassle free and classes are easily absorbed into the transfer school.  We also have a lot of private colleges, but I'm not sure how credit transfers work there.  (My dd transferred from one private college to another and was still able to graduate in four years, but it was a bit of a challenge to get the new school to accept everything.)

I grew up in California and had a community college in my town.  I was in college in the 80's and at that time, probably half of my larger circle of friends first went to the community college.  They were free, and back then, usually just one parent worked and it was really helpful for families.  We continued living at home and took generals.  Because there were far fewer extra curricular type activities, most of us also were able to hold part-time jobs.  Those credits seemed to easily transfer... I think it was a pretty easy process back then to do that, anywhere you went.  I actually transferred to a private college in another state, and every class I took at the cc was accepted, no questions asked.  I don't think that would happen today nearly as easily, but I'm sure some of them would be transferred.  

 

 

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Ny doesn’t have free community college for all, but it does have a program that might give you an idea of how transfers can work:  SUNY to SUNY Advantage program for transfer students.  

NY also has the Excelsior Scholarship Program for families with an AGI of <$125,000, which makes SUNY or CUNY college free if you meet the requirements (NY citizen for 12+ months, US citizen or eligible non-citizen, high school grad or equivalent, 12+ credits per term and 30 credits per year successively w/no break, agree to reside and work in NY for a length of time equal to your  scholarship)  

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I don’t know about CA, but even if 2 years of CC is free, it’s not always the cheapest way to a 4 year degree.  Most 4 year colleges don’t have nearly as many scholarships and other financial aid available to transfers.  For my dd, it is cheaper to go straight to a 4 year school as a freshman because she can get a lot more scholarship money.  When you add up the costs of all 4 years, it’s a lot less.

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So I don't have time to read all responses right now, but I do think this can vary by region.

Our urban CC have some pre-professional transfer agreements for things like nursing, STEM  degrees, etc.  Like a friend's son is doing 2 years pre-engineering at a CC with a guaranteed transfer into a state school in 2 years, on track to graduate in 4 years.  

That said, you need to know your track and transfer plan AHEAD of time.  There is 2 free years here of dual enrollment  for qualified high schoolers.  My oldest son took advantage, my younger will start this fall.  Both my kids are using those credits to follow some interests and fill out some high school gen eds.  I don't particularly care if they are plugged into their exact degree or finish an AA.  My son is now a college sophomore working on 2 unrelated BS degrees. These credits gave him the flexibility to do that in 4 years at a rigorous school and gave him some direction he wouldn't have otherwise had.  Obviously, we have some financial privilege to be able to do that. Though he is at a public university and got a half tuition academic scholarship (which is extremely rare at this U).

I do think for dual enroll, you need to be careful with younger kids.  I had 2 friends kids do a tech related 2 year program for free at a CC for their last 2 years of high school.  Both graduated, got a job in that area, and hated it.  Now they are back in the position where they  if they want to go back to college they will need to do some remedial work at a CC.  One is working fast food and has no plans.  Which  is totally fine of course, but I do suspect his mom might  have made some different decisions during this kid's high school years.  She has another kid in grad school, this is an academically capable kid.  It's great if you have a teen that is focused on a particular goal. But I don't think keeping options open as those brain cells are fusing is ever a bad idea.  As a parent, I feel like I should never be more invested in my kid's young adult choices than they are.  I have a sibling who by age 6 said he wanted to do a particular career.  My parents nurtured and obsessed over it.  He was the "X kid" isn't that the cutest.  He did go to college and work in that field for a number of years.  My parents overpaid for his education to pursue it.  And he hated it, moved to another career within 5 years.  I think young people should  not feel pressured to get boxed in too early.  Opening free CC at any age to anyone could really help with this.  

I will also say, our area also has free CC already for those under a certain income threshold and great transfer agreements with our state 4 years.  So there are post high school students of all ages that take advantage of that.  Our CCs are high quality at least in terms of teaching faculty, the admins can be a mess.  My kid had faculty at CC in very small personal classes that also are teaching adjunct at high buck private schools using the same curriculum.  

I do think the $$$$ and focus on name and prestige of colleges needs to go in the US.  I could drone on and on about that all day long frankly but I'll spare you all.  

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I'm in TN, which has the TN Promise for high school graduates to attend tuition free in exchange for attending specific workshops, mentoring support and volunteering, and TN Reconnect, which is for adults who have been out of high school at least 5 years, and have not attained a degree. Both work at both the community college and at state technical/trades programs. The TN Scholarships are a last money program-they pay what is left after financial aid is applied. 

 

What I have seen is that 

1) The number of higher level classes offered at the CC have increased, because there are more academically able students starting there. The quality has increased as well. A big part of that is that many of the freshman level classes from the local state U have gone from having multiple, 150 kid lecture halls to having a much smaller number, and that therefore the instructors who WOULD have been teaching English Comp 1 and College Algebra and Applied Calculus at the state U and now teaching it at the CC, with a class size cap of 30. The honors college at the CC is far more robust, and includes classes that are dual coded at the 3000/4000 level with the state U system. 

 

 Going away to school is no longer the automatic default expectation for a high school senior. In the homeschool community, there are two groups-those who get big scholarships at 4 year schools, and those who don't even apply anywhere but the local CC/TCAT program. This has also changed the tenor of homeschooling teen activities, because there are now far more 18-19 yr olds who are still around and showing up. Based on what I'm seeing from local high schools, some schools have a good half their graduating class going to the CC or TCAT first.

 

Another side effect is that student organizations, club sports and the like are now much more important on the CC campus than they were a few years back. Before COVID, there were a lot of social activities, dances, etc (to the point that my kid referred to the student government as being run by either the cupcake party or the donut party, because inevitably every activity set up by SGA involved food and giveaways). There seems to be a lot of effort to give students right out of high school what they think college is supposed to be. 

 

2) The number of transfer scholarships offered by 4 year schools have increased, with some really good ones for kids in specific fields, but if you're not in one of those fields, or don't have a 3.25 college GPA, you'll probably be paying close to full tuition when you transfer. 

and 

3) The number of really, really GOOD first year scholarships for state schools have gone down. As in, unless you get one of the named top scholarships (which my kid got, but turned down, from our local state U), you'll get the default state aid and maybe a little bit of automatic merit, but not much else. It was cheaper for my kid to go out of state for their automatic merit than to go in state with only automatic merit. 

 

I suspect that at least some of the kids who go to the CC by default would be just fine at a state U, and may well have paid less if they had looked out of state or at private schools, especially the kids who qualify for Pell Grants, but at least right now, unless you qualify for a really good scholarship OR have so much need that your financial aid covers everything, you probably really are financially better off starting out at the CC. 

 

My kid actually spent a good part of this last semester doing interviews of TN reconnect participants as part of a journalism class. In many cases, these are adults who have been taking a class or two now and then for years, but, once free tuition became available, rearranged their lives to be able to finish the remaining credits in the time allotted for the degree. Many are getting degrees with the idea of moving forward in jobs they already hold. I think having the reconnect students on campus has also helped in improving the quality of classes because they're definitely NOT there for the college experience, and have little patience with BS that kids right out of high school don't even notice. My homeschooled DE kid often got along better with the adults than with the 18 yr olds.  

 

 

With the exception of possibly the Reconnect students, my perception is that it is more a shuffling of money than any new money being spent. That is, the money now providing tuition free CC is largely being shuffled from the state U's (both financial aid and state scholarships) for high school grads who otherwise would have gone to the non-flagship state schools.  I feel like the Reconnect program is probably actually more effective for the money spent, both because some of these adults had used up their financial aid or already have loans, so it is giving them a chance to finish a degree, and usually the degree they are seeking has a clear financial benefit.  

 

I don't see anything wrong with tuition free CC-but I'd rather prioritize child care, in part because one common thread in all the adult students my senior has had the honor of taking classes with and interviewing this past semester was that it was often infant/toddler child care that pushed them out of school years back, and often the only reason they can come back now is that their kids are in public school, and child care dollars are likely to give more bang for the buck. I also would prefer to prioritize lowering the cost of college across the board vs two "free" years, but the other two costing significantly more. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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1 hour ago, athena1277 said:

I don’t know about CA, but even if 2 years of CC is free, it’s not always the cheapest way to a 4 year degree.  Most 4 year colleges don’t have nearly as many scholarships and other financial aid available to transfers.  For my dd, it is cheaper to go straight to a 4 year school as a freshman because she can get a lot more scholarship money.  When you add up the costs of all 4 years, it’s a lot less.

Low income families pay virtually nothing even for a four year school in CA. I know things vary by state, but frankly CA makes every effort for those in need. 

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https://thecollegepost.com/free-community-college-states/

I was looking into this last night and found this article that says 17 states, including mine, already have programs for free CC.  I used this for my 2 year degree, great option, no debt.

My DD has been attending a CC the last 2 years and we know several others who do (its not free for homeschoolers or DE, but its reduced to $70-100 per credit hour).  My DD is going to a bigger university in the fall, and we started comparing classes and textbooks.   We have found that most basic courses use the same textbooks and online , but class sizes are much smaller.  What is a big seminar-style class, 300+, at the big university is a small 20-30 at the CC.  Most use the online components and cover the same material.   Our state has an agreed set of Core courses that all transfer as the same course, so if students take a Core class, they know it transfers to any school in the state.   Our public high school offers about 8 core classes as online Dual Enrollment and encourages kids to start taking them- they even have scholarship agreements that if a student takes and passed one, its reimbursed!  School pays for the books, too (online course codes).  

There are only a handful of kids who take advantage of the programs,  maybe 10-15%, but it allows our very small school to at least offer a few higher level courses.  Right now in her graduating class (or what would be if she were in public school), there are about 50 kids- 1 is going to state University,  4 are going to Christian colleges, and one may use the free CC.  All 5 have done Core DE classes, so have a few credits to transfer in.  My DD is going out of state, but she's already got almost all the credits she can from the CC.  

I think programs like ours are a great idea!  There are lots of programs that can be started or completed close to home, for free!  Including welding and fabrication,  teaching and nursing (CNA complete, RN must transfer- i know several RNs who used this).  There are also tracks set out if you plan to go to specific 4 year schools and get specific degrees- including engineering!  I think it covers about 3 semesters before you have to transfer.  There are stipulations- kids must have snd maintain good grades and have volunteer hours to qualify.

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Though my kids personally wouldn't be able to use it, people in rural areas might get a boost for their online community college and some of the small towns that have CC.  The impoverished kids in the city would have to find a way to commute out of town so it is no good to them either under current structures.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

1) The number of higher level classes offered at the CC have increased, because there are more academically able students starting there. The quality has increased as well. A big part of that is that many of the freshman level classes from the local state U have gone from having multiple, 150 kid lecture halls to having a much smaller number, and that therefore the instructors who WOULD have been teaching English Comp 1 and College Algebra and Applied Calculus at the state U and now teaching it at the CC, with a class size cap of 30. The honors college at the CC is far more robust, and includes classes that are dual coded at the 3000/4000 level with the state U system. 

 

 

It might behoove our local 4 year university to set up another campus in an old building or something to get the Federal funds and if they actually increased upper level classes and organized them so you could transfer to finish your bachelors at the Uni, it could be helpful. I hate that the only option is the University where working people must pay a ton of fees for campus life that they will never use while taking care of families and working full time. Getting Federal funds would be a big incentive to change.

If these changes occured my third might be able to use the community college even if it would not be free to him. As a part time student he would get some free classes to start out and then continue on but if the CC branch were cheaper without the extra fees, it would make a big difference.

Edited by frogger
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As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students going to a four-year college, I am trying to figure out what hte cost savings are.  I thought a cost advantage of the CC was that it meant students could stay local, live at home, and not have housing and transportation costs for two years.  However, I now see students going to residential CC, which means, for those students, it is not about saving commuting and housing $.  I also see CC a mile or two down the road fromt eh state 4-year school, which agains means it is not about housing and commuting costs.

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less? Having fewer facilities? If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

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2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students going to a four-year college, I am trying to figure out what hte cost savings are.  I thought a cost advantage of the CC was that it meant students could stay local, live at home, and not have housing and transportation costs for two years.  However, I now see students going to residential CC, which means, for those students, it is not about saving commuting and housing $.  I also see CC a mile or two down the road fromt eh state 4-year school, which agains means it is not about housing and commuting costs.

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less? Having fewer facilities? If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

I have always wondered the same. I have speculated maybe it had something to do with research being done at 4 years or all the dorms they build. I have no idea. 

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7 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students going to a four-year college, I am trying to figure out what hte cost savings are.  I thought a cost advantage of the CC was that it meant students could stay local, live at home, and not have housing and transportation costs for two years.  However, I now see students going to residential CC, which means, for those students, it is not about saving commuting and housing $.  I also see CC a mile or two down the road fromt eh state 4-year school, which agains means it is not about housing and commuting costs.

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less? Having fewer facilities? If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

Every place is different, but I find big universities often have a lot of amenities like big concert halls, sports facilities, sports teams, etc. I really disliked our having to pay for campus life fees over a thousand dollars in fees,  when my DH was a part time busy commuter. Sure a community college might have a gym or what not but it usually doesn't in any way compare to the Universities.

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6 minutes ago, frogger said:

Every place is different, but I find big universities often have a lot of amenities like big concert halls, sports facilities, sports teams, etc. I really disliked our having to pay for campus life fees over a thousand dollars in fees,  when my DH was a part time busy commuter. Sure a community college might have a gym or what not but it usually doesn't in any way compare to the Universities.

i am sure this varies significantly from location to location (which makes it hard to me to understand a generic "2 years CC" for free).  If student fees are more at the 4-year college than the CC to pay for amenities, that would not cause a difference in tuition fees.  

Locally, our large CC has nicer gym and rec facilities than the 4-year college.  The 4-year college now has a football team but it plays at the city-owned facilities miles away (not on campus).  The CC has several nice theaters where the local dance companies perform (there is not really any faciltiiy like that at the 4-year campus).  The real facility difference seems to be in the lbrary facilities.  But, the CC students can use the 4-year college library, so they are still being provided that access, so it isn't really any "cheaper"--it is just which bucket the money is coming out of.

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27 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

As for labs, for the engineering school I attended, labs are done in the same facilities for all four years. So universities are unlikely to save much in labs cost since the equipment is already there and not purposely bought for the lower division classes.

I know part time community college lecturers don’t earn that much. Many teach at a few community colleges if they depend on the income. I know full time community college lecturers who also taught part time at other community colleges to supplement their income. 
 

My property tax has 11% going to the two community colleges affiliated to my area. They also get state funding and donations. My property tax doesn’t go in any way to state universities. 
 

I have a commuter state university nearby and the main difference I see is the overall size of campus as well as the  how much newer sports facilities are. It is like the community college’s sports facilities are similar to the city’s community center/recreation center but the commuter state university’s sports facilities is like those private sports clubs franchises.
 

@Roadrunner dorms (and meal plans) are supposed to be a lucrative revenue stream.

Edited by Arcadia
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17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students going to a four-year college, I am trying to figure out what hte cost savings are.  I thought a cost advantage of the CC was that it meant students could stay local, live at home, and not have housing and transportation costs for two years.  However, I now see students going to residential CC, which means, for those students, it is not about saving commuting and housing $.  I also see CC a mile or two down the road fromt eh state 4-year school, which agains means it is not about housing and commuting costs.

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less? Having fewer facilities? If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

It's quite possible that it costs much less for a university to offer an introductory course to 300 students than an upper level seminar course, but that doesn't matter to the students. They pay the same cost per credit hour. The university pockets the difference.

The reason that there is a CC right next to a 4 year school is that they are serving different populations. The students attending Austin CC for a job-oriented AS are a different niche than the first and second year students at UT. 

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2 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

It's quite possible that it costs much less for a university to offer an introductory course to 300 students than an upper level seminar course, but that doesn't matter to the students. They pay the same cost per credit hour. The university pockets the difference.

The reason that there is a CC right next to a 4 year school is that they are serving different populations. The students attending Austin CC for a job-oriented AS are a different niche than the first and second year students at UT. 

This is some of what I don't know--how many students attending a CC are seeking a job-oriented AS and how many are on a stepping-stone track to a 4-year university?  To me those are very different issues, but when CC is discussed, I have experienced that some people are talking more the job-oriented AS and others are talking 2+2 programs.  The needs of those students are very different and I would think the cost structures of providing those educational services are very different.  

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35 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students going to a four-year college, I am trying to figure out what hte cost savings are.  I thought a cost advantage of the CC was that it meant students could stay local, live at home, and not have housing and transportation costs for two years.  However, I now see students going to residential CC, which means, for those students, it is not about saving commuting and housing $.  I also see CC a mile or two down the road fromt eh state 4-year school, which agains means it is not about housing and commuting costs.

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less? Having fewer facilities? If it is there are less upper level classes with labs and other expensive equipment, that doesn't first-year students don't need to use, the 4-year university would not need to provide that either.  When I see people talking about the class sizes being capped at 30 for CC classess and larger at the 4-year university, how can the CC afford those small classes?  

Way, way many fewer facilities. The CC my DD attended had similar facilities to a decent sized high school that doesn't have a good sports program. That is, the fitness center was a basketball court to shoot hoops and play pick up games and a side room with a few weight machines, the library wasn't much to speak of, labs were good, but didn't have state of the art equipment, same with the auto mechanic and culinary classes, etc. The state U has climbing walls, pools, fitness centers, a large athletic program, many dining options, an awesome library, etc. The computer lab  my kid took a math class in had computers with floppy drives. 

 

And faculty are paid for classes they teach, so you're not paying for research time, which I suspect accounts for a lot. Full time faculty have heavy teaching loads with many sections compared to at a state U. 

Edited by Dmmetler
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Wow, I just looked at the facilties at a local CC--this is the dorm and this is in the description "fully equipped, modern kitchens, in-unit washer and dryers as well as an inclusive utility package. Residents also enjoy luxury amenities such as a resort-style pool, game room, study rooms, fitness room, business center and 24-hour on-call maintenance."

image.thumb.png.7ca30b67afa9fa2ca1f9201e6e4e9f01.png

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1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

Way, way many fewer facilities. The CC my DD attended had similar facilities to a decent sized high school that doesn't have a good sports program. That is, the fitness center was a basketball court to shoot hoops and play pick up games and a side room with a few weight machines, the library wasn't much to speak of, labs were good, but didn't have state of the art equipment, same with the auto mechanic and culinary classes, etc. The state U has climbing walls, pools, fitness centers, a large athletic program, many dining options, an awesome library, etc. The computer lab had computers with floppy drives. 

 

And faculty are paid for classes they teach, so you're not paying for research time, which I suspect accounts for a lot. Full time faculty have heavy teaching loads with many sections compared to at a state U. 

So, is the difference really cost saving for faculty?  I taught at a 4-year state university and taught about 1000 students PER SEMESTER.  Are CC faculty really teaching that many more?  Because I hear people talking about the CC with 30 students in a class instead of the large lecture halls at the 4-year school with 300-500 students.  

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Yes, every state is different. This is probably more helpful in some states than others but it is also a big carrot with dwindling state funding. 

Our University is the only game in town. Well, there is one little for profit and a private religious based with 3 or 4 basic degrees, and a couple tiny Bible colleges but really the only major player in town so it does everything.

 

It folded in what used to be technical school, it gives tons of remedial classes because the state wants it to.  Years ago there was a publicized letter from the University to public schools about the lack of education of incoming students. According to this 50% had to take remedial. Meanwhile they have to keep accreditations (lost their teaching accreditation) but still have ABET and some other tougher ones. Oh and they are dealing with major funding cuts every year. It seems like a wide focus.  We have a high cost of living too. With tuition taken care of for both my students it was cheaper to fly out of state because housing and meal plans are more expensive here.

It is so different than say California or the Northeast, I really don't know how you can compare different state models or costs. 

 

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1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

So, is the difference really cost saving for faculty?  I taught at a 4-year state university and taught about 1000 students PER SEMESTER.  Are CC faculty really teaching that many more?  Because I hear people talking about the CC with 30 students in a class instead of the large lecture halls at the 4-year school with 300-500 students.  

I'm not sure, but I do know that my dad, as a research professor at a State U, only teaches 2 classes most semesters. And while you might teach 1000 students a semester in English Comp 1, you're probably only teaching 10-15 at a time in an advanced Organic Chem lab, so it likely evens out. The big classes are mostly freshman year-I came in with a decent amount of AP credit, and except for Marching band and Wind Symphony, can't recall any class I took that was bigger than about 30, even at a state U. My kid was accepted to Mizzou, which has a LOT of large lecture classes, but when we toured the ag program, was told that it was typical for classes in the actual majors to be more like 10-15 students because there simply aren't that many wildlife conservation management, animal science, food science, nutrition, etc majors. So intro bio lecture might be huge, but once you get past that point, you'll never see a large class again. 

 

And since large sections typically have recitation sections, that also makes a difference. That 300 student class might have one professor, but also have 10 grad students providing support.  At the CC, there would be 10 sections, but no grad students, and it's entirely possible that when benefits are included, the grad student costs almost as much as an part time instructor who teaches just a few classes and gets no benefits. 

 

Another thing to consider is that the CC here had a lot of online asynchronous classes even pre-covid, and those classes usually are mostly students working through material on their own, with test proctored in the testing center on campus. Those classes usually have HUGE registration caps, so they may well replace the large lecture hall classes at the State U, but have the same financial benefit to the school. 

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13 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Wow, I just looked at the facilties at a local CC--this is the dorm and this is in the description "fully equipped, modern kitchens, in-unit washer and dryers as well as an inclusive utility package. Residents also enjoy luxury amenities such as a resort-style pool, game room, study rooms, fitness room, business center and 24-hour on-call maintenance."

image.thumb.png.7ca30b67afa9fa2ca1f9201e6e4e9f01.png

Where is this? It really seems like an anomaly from what I've seen.

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13 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

That is San Antonio Community College.  

Interesting. It looks like a 2 year University model. Considering our cost of living is higher than in Texas it is  as expensive as our actual University, actually more expensive. 

What would be the Federal legal definition of "Community College"?  I doubt they have one. I guess it would need to be in the bill, if they were smart enough to think about that. 

From what I can see, they also weren't bright enough to fade it out but had a specific cut off.

 

Hmmm..I will have to look again. 

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Something that is nice in the CA system is that people can dabble at a college level, for credit, without a ton of cost.  And it’s straightforward and localized and varied.  So, for instance, someone who always wanted to study STEM could try out a few night classes to see whether they actually can manage it, without moving or giving up their job or making a huge financial investment.  Someone who wants to prepare to go back to school for a masters can take an English course to get used to writing frequent papers.  Someone who is immersed in an intense job can take a PE class to learn a new sport, or an art class that they never had time for at the university.

These usages are all in addition to the regular ‘study for a two year degree’ and ‘study to transfer into a university’ type usages that seem to be the more typical norm nationwide.  

Also, there are several routes to use CC’s for high school students, which is a great boon at times.

Now, you could argue all day long about whether or not this is something that the state should subsidize, but I do think that it’s a good thing *for society*.  

 

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

It's quite possible that it costs much less for a university to offer an introductory course to 300 students than an upper level seminar course, but that doesn't matter to the students. They pay the same cost per credit hour. The university pockets the difference.

 " pocket the difference" is a bit misleading. The higher revenue for the large class enables the university to pay the person who teaches the small upper level class. Otherwise, upper level courses would have to be prohibitively expensive.

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A large portion of our local CC is made up of running start (DE) high school students and adults seeking education for new jobs (displaced workers, displaced homemakers, people with disabilities, etc.), and those seeking vocational degrees (mechanics, nursing, early childhood ed., etc.).   A smaller number are high school graduates that are doing their first two years of college.  The CC in our state have reciprocity agreements with state colleges/universities and with some private colleges/universities.  Whether it is a better cost saving option really depends on your area and the degree/program you are going into.

My DD did not do running start, though we did look into it.  I am glad she held off, because although she would have done fine academically she was not mature enough.  After she graduated homeschool at 17, she got a job and paid for her AA degree on her own.  She took a gap year this last school year, where she did just one class a quarter, while working.  She applied to multiple colleges and ended up getting some great scholarships.  Her opinion is that going to CC was a great stepping stone for her and she doesn't regret it at all.  It helped her to get her general ed credits at a much cheaper cost.  All of her credits transfer, and she will enter as a college as a junior.  Going to CC first didn't hinder her in getting scholarships (which I started to worry about after listening to some moms here), and in fact helped her to get some she wouldn't have otherwise.

I think the regional differences are what makes a national mandate a bit tricky.  That said, I would like to see my state start covering two years at a CC for everyone, not just high school students, and I think that may happen in the not too distant future, but likely not soon enough for my children to benefit.

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1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

As far as the economics of CC colleges being cheaper for students (and for society) than students 

Is it somehow chepaer to educate a student at a CC?  Where is the cost savings coming from?  Paying faculty less?

CC faculty are paid way less than faculty at research universities,  and they have a much higher teaching load. Many are adjuncts who have to cobble together a living by teaching at 3 different schools and only get one year contracts. 

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20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

CC faculty are paid way less than faculty at research universities,  and they have a much higher teaching load. Many are adjuncts who have to cobble together a living by teaching at 3 different schools and only get one year contracts. 

I know some people who teach at community colleges who probably do not even make minimum wage.  Which leads to two concerns.  First,I do not think it is reasonable for a CC prof to make less than a high school teacher; if we are concerned about equity and treating families fairly, the idea that we encourage CC attendance because it is cheaper because of inequity in pay is logical.  Second, if the CC faculty are being paid less, with higher teacing loads, teaching at 3 different schools are they really able to give students the same educational experience as students attending a four-year school?  

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In Maryland the CCs seem to be nicely tied into the 4-year institutions.  If you earn an AA it will transfer.  If you're halfway to a bachelors, it will transfer and you'll enter your University as a Junior.  Gen ed courses are not a problem and you don't have to worry about your English 101 (or whatever) not being deemed not rigorous enough to 'count.'  Where you run into issues is if you have a degree where the classes you need as a Freshman cannot be found at your CC.  If a program is so specialized that you can't puzzle it together without going into a 5th year at your university, then the free CC might not benefit you for more than a year, if that.  There are cases where a course is offered at one CC and not another.  If this happens, you take the classes in another county.  It appears that significant work has been done to make sure these pieces fit together, but it only applies to public institutions.  Also, if a student leaves high school not ready to enter college level classes, I could see them spending their 2 free years taking remedial classes that don't count towards a degree.

Don't even get me started on Differential Tuition in Maryland. 😑

Edited by KungFuPanda
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3 hours ago, athena1277 said:

I don’t know about CA, but even if 2 years of CC is free, it’s not always the cheapest way to a 4 year degree.  Most 4 year colleges don’t have nearly as many scholarships and other financial aid available to transfers.  For my dd, it is cheaper to go straight to a 4 year school as a freshman because she can get a lot more scholarship money.  When you add up the costs of all 4 years, it’s a lot less.

This has been our experience, too. 

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1 hour ago, frogger said:

Interesting. It looks like a 2 year University model. Considering our cost of living is higher than in Texas it is  as expensive as our actual University, actually more expensive. 

What would be the Federal legal definition of "Community College"?  I doubt they have one. I guess it would need to be in the bill, if they were smart enough to think about that. 

From what I can see, they also weren't bright enough to fade it out but had a specific cut off.

 

Hmmm..I will have to look again. 

I'm guessing there are some places where the population is so spread out that even a drive to the closest CC would be too long for a student to do every day.  Where I live, I could walk on a bike path to the CC and not hit 10,000 steps, but some of those middle states are HUGE and don't have the population density to support a CC every 20 miles.  You can drive for an hour and still be in the same county in some of those places.

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24 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm guessing there are some places where the population is so spread out that even a drive to the closest CC would be too long for a student to do every day.  Where I live, I could walk on a bike path to the CC and not hit 10,000 steps, but some of those middle states are HUGE and don't have the population density to support a CC every 20 miles.  You can drive for an hour and still be in the same county in some of those places.

The picture that I posted of the CC dorm with luxury amenities is in the middle of San Antonio--walkable to the downtown area.  Yes, places in west Texas can be far apart.  Most of the community colleges that I am aware of in Texas are located in larger metropolitan areas.  

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