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How do deviant proclivities get wired in? (Sort of a S/O of Duggar)


Ginevra
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I have wondered this for a long time, and I’m not even sure if this has been figured out. As I understand it, s3xu@l “mapping” - what things get tied to arousal and erot!cism - happens for most people early in life, well before puberty. 

If and adult wants to see acts or images involving under12 people, like...how does that idea get wired in? Is there an aspect of having all these taboos around nudity something that could wire that in? Or could it also be true in the opposite direction, ie., if a kid saw things or experienced things before puberty, could that get wired in as arous!ng before the kid really understands it? 

 

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There isn't enough research on this topic.

Let's define the terms a bit, though. A pedophile is somebody who is sexually attracted to children. A child molester is somebody who has harmed at least one child in this way - we can broaden that definition to include people who have consumed pornography featuring actual children.

Surprisingly, not all pedophiles ever act on their desires. Many of them do see that it's wrong and can harm children, and since they don't want to do that, they keep it to themselves. And most child molesters are not primarily attracted to children - many of them, frankly, are just garden-variety rapists who don't care where they stick it, or they are primarily interested in harming people and find children an easy target.

So, with that said, we don't really know what causes some adults to be attracted to children. What we do know is there seems to be a strong correlation between childhood abuse, particularly sexual abuse, and becoming a child molester.

The Duggar children grew up in an abusive household. We know that the Duggars used to promote the Pearls, and I highly doubt that they ever stopped using those methods off-camera. We know that they're intense members of ATI, which is a religious cult with a high value on sexual purity and obedience to authority. That is a particularly toxic combination, especially in the form we hear from them - that all men are nigh-uncontrollable animals and all women are responsible all the time for their behavior. It's not surprising that (at least) one of them is either unable or unwilling to control his behavior in this respect.

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I totally agree with Tanaqui. And more research is needed for sure!

I will go one further about ATI. It isn't just a cult, and it isn't just a fertility cult. It is a sex cult, and abusive sex is okay. So marriage exists simply for men to have sex, whatever kind of sex they want, whenever they want it, even if she does not consent - which is not a thing in ATI/ILBP because women and children are allowed no bodily autonomy or agency - and as abusive as they want it. Now will the men openly admit to rape, torture, unlawful restraint, etc.? No. They are well aware of the fact that this is illegal, and the truth could get their butts in hot water. But, it is also not discouraged. Doug Wilson of Moscow Idaho and Christchurch fame also runs a sex cult. He is not ATI - because that ego of his was not going to follow some other dude's ideas - but a ton of what he requires of his followers is the same. Back in 2014/15, can't remember what year exactly, some of us posted here screen shots of a blogpost he wrote about marital sex and in it, he advocated rape saying that most women fantasize about being raped and secretly love it. This is the guy who defended a child rapist with more than thirty victims, paid for his legal defense, got some p.o.s. D.A. to let him plea it down to a single count, and then when the slime got out of jail after a few months, arranged a marriage to a young woman in his church so the pedo would have someone to have legal sex with. The pedo and his wife went on to have a child that he molested as an infant. Google Steven Sitler and Doug Wilson. Many articles out there detailing the facts of the case. Wilson still defends Sitler, and believes he has a right to the child. This stuff is so sick, my mind can't make it up.

So in this kind of cult world, I kind of think they almost make pedophiles. I really do. There is this insane obsession with a man getting his virgin, but no actual sex education. Puberty sets in, sex feelings happen, night time emissions, the stuff that really should be talked about is not talked about, marry them off young is the mantra, so youth is worshipped in light of sex, boys are taught that they were created by god without self control, therefore girls are the temptresses because Eve, girls are sexualized and objectified as little girls, modesty rules and teaching about being a natural sin temptation just for being born female begins at age five, boys and even husbands are not to be in the same room when a baby is having a diaper change because that could cause a temptation, and voila, the cult has created a mindset that children, even babies, are sexual, that it is normal to be sexually tempted by the sight of their bodies, and it isn't the poor boys' faults that their minds are in the gutter. Sexual arousal happens, there is no functionally normal person to talk to about it due to homeschooling in order to keep sheltered is widely practiced, and on Sundays, the maniac in the pulpit says the same b.s.

I don't know how all pedophiles end up pedophiles. I do believe that ATI and other sex cults/purity cults create them.

Edited by Faith-manor
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Oh, and I forgot to add  the purity ball stuff. Now maybe I am just sensitive and all, but when a girl is dressed up in a mock wedding gown and bundled off to "marry daddy" in a ceremony in which she - as soon as she gets her first period - pledges her virginity to her father until he allows her to get married, and then there is a reception, and wedding photos, I think some bad things happen to her brain, daddy's brain, and any brothers' brains who are old enough to pay attention to this.

Her is just one of many pics of a "couple"/father -daughter at a purity ball event. Call me judgmental, but I think it is downright puke worthy! 

Nope, couldn't leave the photo up. It is just too damn creepy! Whoever that girl is, it is just gross that her wedding photo with her father looking like he just could not wait for the wedding night, all over the internet is beyond the pale.

If you Google, purity ball wedding photos, you can see a bunch. I just couldn't leave it here. Ugh.

Edited by Faith-manor
Thought better of my decision to link a photo.
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@Faith-manor Whoa - I've never even heard of such a thing.  I was reading the other thread and I'm really sorry about what you grew up in. 😞  My brain can't wrap around it.  We really loved the Vision Forum for a while and look at that mess...  When our daughters became 16, we wanted to do something special and purity rings were wildly popular in the homeschool crowd.  We ended up opting for ruby rings instead (for her worth is far beyond rubies - Prov) because something wasn't right about telling a young woman her "worth" was wrapped up in her virginity.  Her worth is in having a soul. Sigh.

How does it happen? I think we have young boys and teens who are exposed to p*rn accidentally and who knows what they are seeing this day and age.  I think there HAS to be influence there.  I think this stuff is only going to get worse and I've heard the "we're born that way and can't help it" is the reasoning that they are working to lower the age of consent.  Disgusting.

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10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Oh, and I forgot to add  the purity ball stuff. Now maybe I am just sensitive and all, but when a girl is dressed up in a mock wedding gown and bundled off to "marry daddy" in a ceremony in which she - as soon as she gets her first period - pledges her virginity to her father until he allows her to get married, and then there is a reception, and wedding photos, I think some bad things happen to her brain, daddy's brain, and any brothers' brains who are old enough to pay attention to this.

Her is just one of many pics of a "couple"/father -daughter at a purity ball event. Call me judgmental, but I think it is downright puke worthy! 

Nope, couldn't leave the photo up. It is just too damn creepy! Whoever that girl is, it is just gross that her wedding photo with her father looking like he just could not wait for the wedding night, all over the internet is beyond the pale.

If you Google, purity ball wedding photos, you can see a bunch. I just couldn't leave it here. Ugh.

The purity ball was more Vision Forum.  I hate them, too.   Purity culture itself is creepy, but VF/ATI took it a totally different level.  Like to where it no longer measures on the creep-o-meter.

VF had this daddy-daughter retreat where the girls did things like shave their daddy’s faces and tie his shoes.  It’s as disgusting and weird as it sounds.

Ive been around the weirdness most of my life. My parents wanted to homeschool, which was unheard of in 1986, and the only people they knew who did it were ATI type folk back then.  They skirted around IBLP(ATI parent organization) and then my mom dove head long into Cheryl Lindsey and The Gentle Spirit magazine weirdos.  They advocated home church, which my parents wound up doing. We always wore pants, though my mom didn’t for a long time. Christian contemporary music was bad, friends were bad, isolation and whole wheat bread was good.  Courtship/betrothal was the way to go(my parents gave up on that pretty quickly though).

The end result? 2 of my siblings are no longer Christian.  2 others barely talk to us, and 1 is completely estranged.

VF was raging strong when I first married and had a young baby, and I was very lonely. The love bombing I received by some VF and family church types  was difficult to resist, but I’d seen too much by then to fall into it. 

Someday, I’d honestly like to write a factual, well researched book about it all. Katherine Joyce’s Quiverfull is good, but it’s almost a decade old and there’s much more to write about now that so many of the leaders(Gothard, Doug Phillips, Doug Wilson, Josh Duggar) have been outed as sexual predators.

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13 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 

So in this kind of cult world, I kind of think they almost make pedophiles. I really do. There is this insane obsession with a man getting his virgin, but no actual sex education. Puberty sets in, sex feelings happen, night time emissions, the stuff that really should be talked about is not talked about, marry them off young is the mantra, so youth is worshipped in light of sex, boys are taught that they were created by god without self control, therefore girls are the temptresses because Eve, girls are sexualized and objectified as little girls, modesty rules and teaching about being a natural sin temptation just for being born female begins at age five, boys and even husbands are not to be in the same room when a baby is having a diaper change because that could cause a temptation, and voila, the cult has created a mindset that children, even babies, are sexual, that it is normal to be sexually tempted by the sight of their bodies, and it isn't the poor boys' faults that their minds are in the gutter. Sexual arousal happens, there is no functionally normal person to talk to about it due to homeschooling in order to keep sheltered is widely practiced, and on Sundays, the maniac in the pulpit says the same b.s.

I don't know how all pedophiles end up pedophiles. I do believe that ATI and other sex cults/purity cults create them.

Add in that at that age of puberty and hormones and such,they only people they may be around are their parents and their siblings. So...yeah....

Give the boys a sears catalog at least, lol. (kidding....but some actual discussion of what is normal, as well as an opportunity to be around and have crushes on someone NOT your sibling, would be a good start)

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35 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I was thinking about the connection between this and last month's killing of the women in the massage parlors and how the killer claimed to have "sex addiction." I've been seeing claims about sex addiction and p#rn addiction more recently in super conservative circles. Is this because there is a really screwed up understanding of sex in these circles? 

 

Yes. Basically, if you have sexual arousal other than in a dark room with your wife, and even then if you like it too much, you are addicted to sex. They also would say if you sometimes um, make your own tea for one, as it were, you are an addict and unfaithul to your spouse. Lots of Christians may say self pleasure is a sin, but they don't feel it is a disordered, evil impulse, just a normal impulse to try to avoid. There is a qualitative difference to the entire approach. 

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43 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I was thinking about the connection between this and last month's killing of the women in the massage parlors and how the killer claimed to have "sex addiction." I've been seeing claims about sex addiction and p#rn addiction more recently in super conservative circles. Is this because there is a really screwed up understanding of sex in these circles? 

So a guy like Josh Duggar is married to a woman who is perpetually pregnant and probably completely overwhelmed and tired taking care of a bunch of young kids. His culture tells him that all of his sexual needs are supposed to come from his wife but he probably gets aroused sometimes by other women (not getting into the child part here) and isn't that attracted to his always pregnant and tired wife. That's completely normal but his world has no room for that. So it's called an addiction which makes it something he can't control. It's very strange. It's like no one can admit that sexual feelings are totally normal. 

I've been reading Duggar articles today and was reminded of the timeline. He molested his sisters when he was 14 and his parents did not seek any counseling for him. They claimed they did but they lied. They actually sent him to build houses and to talk to a state trooper friend of the family. The state trooper is now in jail for child p#rn himself now. Is Josh a pedophile? IDK but when he acted out as a child, no one got him any help. 

Society has a really screwed up understanding of sex and theirs is an equally screwed up response to that. Neither is healthy.

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10 hours ago, scholastica said:

Society has a really screwed up understanding of sex and theirs is an equally screwed up response to that. Neither is healthy.

I’m going to go with “many and particularly fundamental religions” rather than “society.” It’s true that Americans have a heck of a lot of hangups regarding sex (and nudity), but I’m guessing that too has much to do with prevalent religious views and their influence.

Edited by bibiche
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned on the other thread.  Josh spent a lot of time as a kid involved in local government politics--or at least spent a lot of time in the buildings. I read a book that the girls wrote years ago and they talked about this. They called him the little pageboy and he would do errands for the government officials. My bet is that he was sexually abused in that context, and combined with his upbringing, he became the filth that he is. 

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1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

Thanks Mercy. To be fair, not everyone in the church was like that while we attended. It was submissive-wife culture but not much practiced in the Duggar way.  It got more...restrictive...over time. On the heels of these weddings came things like, if you don’t believe in a literal 6-day creation, or if you don’t sign a membership covenant and join the church, you probably aren’t really saved. 🙄

I told dh I would no longer attend, and that my daughters were not allowed to be taken there anymore. He did not disagree. 

I totally get it. Sometimes things get worse over time, and sometimes you just don't know...until you know!

FWIW, I believe in submission in marriage--but as actually described in the New Testament, not as prescribed by some wacked out, never married, Scripture-twisting old perv.

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1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

BlsdMama, where have you heard that "they" are working to lower the age of consent? Lower it to what, and where? Who are "they"?

California has started by changing penalties for adults who have sexual relations with minors. So a 24 year old can sex with a 15 year old with no penalties.
https://www.foxla.com/news/new-california-bill-would-lower-penalties-for-adults-who-have-sexual-relations-with-a-minor

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1 hour ago, Tanaqui said:

BlsdMama, where have you heard that "they" are working to lower the age of consent? Lower it to what, and where? Who are "they"?

I’m curious as well.  All I hear in my more liberal groups is “raising “ the age.  They would like to eliminate parents signing for 16 year olds to marry.  In some states a judge can sign off on children as young as 14 to marry.  Marriage is occasionally seen as a way to “fix” a statutory rape charge or a make a teen pregnancy right”.  

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2 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

California has started by changing penalties for adults who have sexual relations with minors. So a 24 year old can sex with a 15 year old with no penalties.
https://www.foxla.com/news/new-california-bill-would-lower-penalties-for-adults-who-have-sexual-relations-with-a-minor

That is not what that bill does, or what that article says. The penalty stays the same, but if they are within 10 years of each other the Judge has discretion as to if they go on the sex offender registry. This came about because up to that point, someone who was a day over 18, who had a boy or girlfriend a day under 18, would be automatically on the sex offender registry for life. Obviously, that's stupid. So now, the judge can take things like that into consideration. He/she can still absolutely put them on the sex offender registry, but if there are extenuating circumstances, they don't have to. 

According to Wiener, the bill would not change the potential sentence for having sex with an underage minor. Instead, the bill would give judges the ability to evaluate whether the accused be required to register as a sex offender.

 

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6 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

How does it happen? I think we have young boys and teens who are exposed to p*rn accidentally and who knows what they are seeing this day and age.  I think there HAS to be influence there.   

Pedophilia and child sexual abuse have been common long before "this day and age." And I don't see why being exposed to porn as a boy or teen would make you sexually attracted to children - almost no one is stumbling onto child sexual materials accidentally, or at a young age. 

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3 hours ago, scholastica said:

Society has a really screwed up understanding of sex and theirs is an equally screwed up response to that. Neither is healthy.

Yeah, purity culture is one extreme end of a long spectrum that has some pretty extreme and de-humanising stuff at the other. 

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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Why would you assume that he was molested while working in local government politics? There haven't been many scandals of children abused while working in government. 

You're right, it's an unfounded assumption. It's just something that I thought of when the first scandal came out about him.  He was quite young and I think they said he would very frequently spend the entire day there. So without parents, and with mostly men--not a place I would leave a child all day. Is it fair of me to wonder that? I guess not. But I still wonder. 

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4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Yes. Basically, if you have sexual arousal other than in a dark room with your wife, and even then if you like it too much, you are addicted to sex. They also would say if you sometimes um, make your own tea for one, as it were, you are an addict and unfaithul to your spouse. Lots of Christians may say self pleasure is a sin, but they don't feel it is a disordered, evil impulse, just a normal impulse to try to avoid. There is a qualitative difference to the entire approach. 

This is the thing I've been seeing. There is absolutely such a thing as p*rn addiction and addictive behavior can crop up around anything, including all sorts of sex. But lots of people who are on the purity culture end of things seem to be using it to describe people who have viewed p*rn a few times or people who have a high but pretty normal sex drive or people who are bi/pan... basically, like you say, anything that deviates from a really narrow definition of sexuality in general or indicates an interest to try totally normal sex acts with a consenting partner. Thus, when people cry "p*rn addiction!" I'm at the point where I roll my eyes. Which isn't so great since it can be a real issue. 

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

This is the thing I've been seeing. There is absolutely such a thing as p*rn addiction and addictive behavior can crop up around anything, including all sorts of sex. But lots of people who are on the purity culture end of things seem to be using it to describe people who have viewed p*rn a few times or people who have a high but pretty normal sex drive or people who are bi/pan... basically, like you say, anything that deviates from a really narrow definition of sexuality in general or indicates an interest to try totally normal sex acts with a consenting partner. Thus, when people cry "p*rn addiction!" I'm at the point where I roll my eyes. Which isn't so great since it can be a real issue. 

Yes. Someone recently posted in a Christian group that 80% of Christian men and women are addicted to porn. Hard to take the actual problem sriously when they claim almost EVERYONE has a problem. 

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The p*rn industry has nothing to do with 'being sexual without shame'. 

People of both sexes can have healthy, happy and even adventurous! sex lives that don't require engagement with an industry that's about as ethical as cigarette manufacturing and sales. 

Being against purity culture doesn't require one to be pro-p*rn. 

 

Edited by Melissa Louise
Forgot the *
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22 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Just like with QAnon, there is purity culture "adjacent." How many of our friends and family believe that sex trafficking is a huge issue? Sex trafficking is real but not the extent that so many believe it to be. Think of how we all see stories before the Super Bowl about how it's the number one day for sex trafficking. That's a complete myth. 

Then we see claims like above that secular society is also messed up about sex and that purity culture stuff is just a reaction to it. No! But we repeat these things without thinking about it. How is secular culture messed up about sex? I'm not denying that there is misogyny, homophobia, and transphobia but seriously how is mainstream society as messed up about sex as Duggarworld? Let's think that through. What I see in young people is a rejection of some of the bad ideas that people of my generation were raised with. Look at recent stories about Britney Spears, for example. Young people can see better than I did at their age what was wrong with how she was treated. 

I can't remember when I learned what homosexuality was. Maybe it was when I was about 12 when Rock Hudson came out of the closet when he had Aids and was on Dynasty? We're getting better. No means no wasn't a thing when I was in college. I remember serious discussions about whether it was possible for a husband to be able to rape his wife. 

We're getting better as a society. I think their obsession with "sex addiction" is a response to society improving on these issues. P#orn itself is becoming more normalized. Not shame based so much. I'm not sure where I fall on that issue but I'm going to automatically reject the idea of women as complete victims. Women are capable of being sexual. 

The ways that secular and certain parts of American/Western Christian society are messed up around sex is just really different. Both hurt women, but in different ways. And both secular and religious segments of society can also have healthy attitudes about sex in different ways.

I can only assume, especially with Melissa here, that this is about to become a tirade against p*rn and a lot of talk about who really is and is not allowed to speak for feminism. I find that tiresome, so I'll leave, but I'll just say that there are a lot of issues with the production of p*rn and they're deep and widespread. But that p*rn in and of itself is not evil. P*rn is like chocolate or coffee. There's a good chance someone was exploited to make it and the industry is super dirty and addiction to it isn't healthy. But nothing inherently wrong with consuming or enjoying it. And if you want to seek out fair trade or whatever, well, then.

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Porn culture and Dugger/Gotherd culture aren’t opposite ends of a spectrum. They’re the same thing in different wrapping paper — the commodification of women’s sexuality controlled by and for the profit of a select group of men.  Some women willingly participate and may even receive some benefit, but the systems as a whole are wildly exploitative and breeding grounds for abuse.

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7 hours ago, MercyA said:

I totally get it. Sometimes things get worse over time, and sometimes you just don't know...until you know!

FWIW, I believe in submission in marriage--but as actually described in the New Testament, not as prescribed by some wacked out, never married, Scripture-twisting old perv.

Do you feel like explaining what that means for you? Or how it looks in general?

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4 minutes ago, hippymamato3 said:

Do you feel like explaining what that means for you? Or how it looks in general?

I would be happy to do so later, but I am headed to bed soon. Will follow this thread so I don't forget. 🙂 

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7 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

This calls for backup. You have to be willing to cite sources before posting something like this, no matter how we may all feel about the person being discussed. 

It's a rumor. It's floating around on different websites speculating about it, from people who claim to be part of Duggar circles. I wouldn't give it any credence at all except the other rumors about the Duggars have turned out to be true.

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13 hours ago, Seasider too said:

This calls for backup. You have to be willing to cite sources before posting something like this, no matter how we may all feel about the person being discussed. 

I’ve spent my browsing time looking into this further. If you look through the “verified” interviews of anonymous church members from Free Jinger, Pickles (on Facebook), Reddit (Fundie Snark & Fundie Snark Uncensored), and Katie Joy (YouTube - Without a Crystal Ball), multiple different anonymous but verified people say Josh’s abuse of girls (not just siblings but others) has been far more extensive and long lasting than publicly admitted. Apparently every adult in their church knew.  And Jill and Jinger suffered the most.  They also say marital abuse is encouraged by their religion. Both rape and physical abuse.

Several have also said SA of girls and widespread spousal abuse is so common in the church a girl is more likely to have suffered it than not. A couple different interviews said the Duggars were liberal with their kids compared to the severe abuse in other families in their local church.  People who are now out of their faith & are adults are still afraid to publicly tell the truth because their parents are still in and they don’t want to lose access to their siblings. 

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I researched Quill’s question once and found a story about research done with brain scans (CT?) on people with this deviancy. A theory that was propounded was that while most adults have a protective response to seeing young children, that protective response gets miswired for arousal. I could probably find it again but I need to step away from some internet rabbit holes for awhile. 

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16 hours ago, Katy said:

Tonight I heard a rumor that Josh didn't stop abusing the girls in the house until he left, and that his marriage to Anna has been "highly abusive" whatever that means.

Frankly, this has been rumored among my still-Gothardite friends and acquaintances for years. However, there’s a LOT of Duggar dislike in that crowd and has been since the show began. So truthfully I always took it with a grain of salt.

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1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Frankly, this has been rumored among my still-Gothardite friends and acquaintances for years. However, there’s a LOT of Duggar dislike in that crowd and has been since the show began. So truthfully I always took it with a grain of salt.

I didn’t realize there are Gothardites that dislike the Duggars. I’m assuming their reasons are different than regular Christians?  Please go on.

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40 minutes ago, Katy said:

I didn’t realize there are Gothardites that dislike the Duggars. I’m assuming their reasons are different than regular Christians?  Please go on.

The families I know thought they were selling out their values to be on TV.  I mean, they’re part of a cult that preaches against televisions and then they take a lot of money(everyone but the Duggar kids, apparently, knew they were being paid) to be on it.  Among the more savvy, I think they know on some level how ridiculous the cult views were/are and didn’t want it splashed all over tabloids and television.  However, I’ve never actually heard that said.  Usually it was more along the lines of they were sell outs and money hungry.  One of the families I heard espousing this was a fairly wealthy doctor and his wife, so I don’t think it was pure jealousy. 
 

One of the families in particular knows the Duggar’s at least tangentially. One of their sons and one of the middle kids has done a bunch of years of ALERT together and visited outside of that.  I don’t know if the other two families have met the Duggar’s personally or just have many friends in common. 

Edited by Mrs Tiggywinkle
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15 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The Duggars are terrible but so the online gossip world. I've watched a few of the Katie Joy videos and noticed a pattern of her exaggerating things. I thought Katie Joy sounded familiar so I googled her and she's been sued for defamation by Tati Westbrook. 

I think people need to stop speculating and relying on anonymous sources. 

Tati’s lawsuit was dismissed, I’m sure she knew it would be. The whole thing was a warning to other YouTubers to not mess with her. 

And I don’t disagree about anonymous sources in theory but I think it’s a bit like the me too thing in Hollywood. There were rumors about rapists for years but no one would believe them because few would come forward. It took a cultural shift to change that. And when you have adult children whose relationships with their siblings is held hostage based on their silence and compliance now… it’s the definition of a cult. People can’t tell the truth.  With time and kids growing up I imagine that will change. 

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On 5/1/2021 at 4:15 PM, HeartString said:

I’m curious as well.  All I hear in my more liberal groups is “raising “ the age.  They would like to eliminate parents signing for 16 year olds to marry.  In some states a judge can sign off on children as young as 14 to marry.  Marriage is occasionally seen as a way to “fix” a statutory rape charge or a make a teen pregnancy right”.  

I was just thinking about this yesterday. I don’t think parental consent young marriage is a good thing. 

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22 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

ust like with QAnon, there is purity culture "adjacent." How many of our friends and family believe that sex trafficking is a huge issue? Sex trafficking is real but not the extent that so many believe it to be. Think of how we all see stories before the Super Bowl about how it's the number one day for sex trafficking. That's a complete myth

Woah. Hold the phone, Batman. Why do you think it is a complete myth? 

Early 2020, just before the super bowl where J-Lo pole-danced and Shakira tied ropes around her wrists while dancing sexily, I attended a real, IRL, seminar about sex trafficking. This was a real, IRL director who works at a shelter trying to rehabilitate girls/women (and sometimes boys/men) who have been trafficked. She explained all the ways trafficking happens (it is frequently a parent/parent figure who involves their kids in trafficking; runaways were the other likeliest type). She said this was a fact: that sex-trafficking “tourism” was a severe problem, certain cities in the south were more susceptible than average, including Miami, and that the Super Bowl was the most common event surrounding sex abuse “tourism”. 

Why is this a “complete myth”? 

Just FYI, i am open to revising my understanding, but this is not just a story that circulates to me. I heard this directly from someone who ought to know and was, AFAIK, not some kooky Qanon weirdo. 

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https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/podcast/dispatch/child-marriage-in-america/
 

I listened to this podcast about a marriage that was done to I avoid a statutory rape charge.  The whole situation was too bad iirc. I think the situation was too bad and then the marriage didn’t seem like it made things better.  Whether there needed to be some kind of criminal charge — I don’t know.  But for a marriage to solve a possible criminal case seems like it will often not work out to actually be a helpful and positive thing.  

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5 minutes ago, Lecka said:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/podcast/dispatch/child-marriage-in-america/
 

I listened to this podcast about a marriage that was done to I avoid a statutory rape charge.  The whole situation was too bad iirc. I think the situation was too bad and then the marriage didn’t seem like it made things better.  Whether there needed to be some kind of criminal charge — I don’t know.  But for a marriage to solve a possible criminal case seems like it will often not work out to actually be a helpful and positive thing.  

It’s a terrible idea IMO.  It does “fix” things from a certain mindset though.  Marrying the girl off “fixes” the premarital s*x issue, they got married so it’s “acceptable” now, and it motivates the guy to get hitched to make his criminal charge disappear.   Shot gun wedding! 
 

I don’t agree with it, thats just how some people see it.  

Edited by HeartString
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We have a friend who is a police officer in this field and she said it divides into two basic categories - one where they are attracted to children and only children through their whole life.  It’s not curable as far as we know.  The other is the opportunist who may not have much deep wiring at all but just acts on the spur of the moment.

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On 5/1/2021 at 11:20 PM, hippymamato3 said:

Do you feel like explaining what that means for you? Or how it looks in general?

It helps to have a starting point, and for me it's this: I believe the New Testament is inspired by God and contains explicit instructions for Christians.

There are several passages in the New Testament specifically dealing with marriage. Below are portions of a few.

From Ephesians 5:

“Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.  For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her…In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies…let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.”

From 1 Corinthians 11:

“I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

From 1 Corinthians 13:

“The things I [Paul] write to you are the commandments of the Lord.”

My husband and I acknowledge two things: one, that he is the head of our family, and two, that he is to love me sacrificially and as he loves himself.

What does this look like for us? First of all, I have a husband who strives to make sure I am happy, healthy, and have everything I need. He puts me first consistently and is always gentle, kind, and respectful. He truly does treat me as he would like himself to be treated. He doesn’t micromanage me. He encourages me in my interests and pursuits. He thinks carefully about how decisions will impact me and seeks my input.

Secondly, if there is a decision to be made and my husband and I cannot reach an agreement or compromise, the end decision is up to him. Practically speaking, this is not something we’ve had to apply very often in our marriage. Probably less than once a year, and we’ve been married almost 25. 🙂 

Some examples [please don't quote this paragraph]: 1. When my daughter was a toddler / preschooler, I suffered from horrible OCD. I’m medicated now but wasn’t at the time. My husband noticed me saying things to DD (regarding germs, etc.) that could have very unhealthily affected her outlook. He told me I was not to do that. He thought it was necessary for our daughter’s protection to put his foot down in that area—and he was right. 2. There was a situation with someone who was very harmful and very toxic in my life. He told me to cut off contact. Trust me when I say everyone on this forum would have agreed with him on this decision. 3. If it were up to me, my house would be FULL of rescued animals. He has said no to this. This is probably the only area of disagreement that has been really difficult for me. 😉 He did last year give me the go ahead to adopt a canary from a rescue. 😉 

I’ve heard a lot about ATI’s view that women are never to say no to their husband regarding tea making.  Here’s what the passage in 1 Corinthians 7 actually says:

“Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”

Going to speak very generally here for privacy [please don't quote this paragraph]. A good husband—following the commandment to love his wife sacrificially—would never pressure his wife into tea-making when she wasn’t feeling it. (And of course the reverse is true as well). I have a good husband. 🙂 A good husband or wife might, at some times, offer intimacy even when he or she is tired or not in the mood —which is very much in keeping with this passage.

Hope this helps you understand my position. 🙂 

*Tangetial thought: I have noticed that ATI materials tend to quote Old Testament Scripture in an unwise way. I believe Christians are no longer under Old Testament Law (Romans 10:4, Galatians 2:16, Romans 6:14). A lack of understanding about this leads to a host of problems, IMO.

Edited by MercyA
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If it were up to me, my house would be FULL of rescued animals. He has said no to this. This is probably the only area of disagreement that has been really difficult for me.

Interesting. This was true here, too. But from the very beginning dh was not really a pet person; he grew up on a farm and did not have emotional attachments to animals very often. I wish I had several cats and at least one dog, maybe two, but I don’t. I don’t think this will change as long as I still have dh. 

I also wanted to foster and/or adopt children for several years, but now I am relieved he would not agree to it. I still admire my friends who are raising a second crop of kids but I am personally glad not to be, at 50. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This isn't the same as me too. None of this seems to be coming from any of Josh's victims. 

It’s coming from people who prove to the people running these sites that they go to church with the Duggars.  I’m not defending these sites, I’d never bothered to look up Katie Joy until the last 48 hours.  I have followed FJ, Pickles, & Reddit pages on & off for probably 10 years though.  Back years before the news broke, and there were rumors specifically about Josh then. Each time there’s a new rumor about him the truth ends up being far worse. Why are you so inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt?
 

Trafficking exists, prostitution exists. The Q-Anon version is a complete myth. 

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My husband has said no to several things.  If I couldn’t also say no to him on my high-priority items we would definitely have a loaded gun not in a gun safe.  Instead we have a gun in a gun safe and no ammo in the house.  I can’t think of any other hard no’s I have had but it is a hard no for me.  
 

My husband had access to a gun in his home when he was a teen and played with it, so he doesn’t disagree, but it’s not what he would do if I weren’t  making it a big deal.  
 

Edit:  I have no problem with other people making other choices — this is what is needed for our home.  

Edited by Lecka
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