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Josh Duggar was arrested today


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5 hours ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

I was under the impression that leaving before taking church vows might be okay, but joining and then leaving resulted in shunning. Is this incorrect?

My husband's Amish grandmother left the church with her husband. They became Mennonites and she still wore a cape dress and covering. Her sisters shunned her to the point of being unwilling to visit her when she was on her deathbed. 😞 (She did see angels before she passed, which was a comfort to her during that hard time.)

My husband's Amish mother and her husband also left the church. They were NOT shunned, at least not by their families. When we all get together for large extended family gatherings today, most people are "English" (some attend mainstream Mennonite churches), some are conservative Mennonites with coverings, and a few are still Amish.

ETA: One of my friends from our co-op is Amish, and I've pulled up to her house before to see her little boys in shorts and graphic tees. Shhh... 😉 

Edited by MercyA
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As far as I'm concerned, without evidence showing otherwise that poor woman is a victim.  She has been brainwashed her whole life with an abusive belief system.  She likely has zero money of her own a

I will say I don't follow the Duggar family at all.  I have heard bits and pieces, mostly here. Not knowing the charges, but suspecting them, I will say I was in his wife's position 3 years ago. 

I agree, strongly with what you wrote here. Additionally, in terms of the massive amount of sympathy directed toward Anna in this thread, as someone who escaped out of a similar religious setting m

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Yes, but from my understanding, they aren’t “allowed” to work in a setting where they could be in authority over males. So, midwifery is acceptable. 

I remember an EMT episode where they re-engineered the uniform pants into a skirt. 🙄

Yes. I remember seeing a photo of that.

One of the things they are totally against too is any career where the female would be alone with another male. Of course that means paramedicine is out because shifts and partners are not gender segregated. Locally, it has been a fairly male dominated field much like fire and law enforcement so our daughter had far more male partners than female, and it was pretty much a no worries kind of thing. But we were criticized by local non ATI/Vf fundies for "allowing" her to go into the profession. Of course we stared at them like they had two heads and just peeled their faces to reveal their lizard status because the whole thought of telling our daughter that we did not allow her as a legal adult to go into paramedicine was just nutty! But, many of these extreme fundies are against them becoming nurses, medics, accountants, IT professionals, you name it, any career in which they might not work practically exclusively with females thus the cottage industry stuff like flower arranging and wedding cakes without store fronts and professional quarters where they would go to work without chaperones or customer face with men.

Edited by Faith-manor
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19 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes, but from my understanding, they aren’t “allowed” to work in a setting where they could be in authority over males. So, midwifery is acceptable. 

I remember an EMT episode where they re-engineered the uniform pants into a skirt. 🙄

I remember that episode too.   

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4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes. I remember seeing a photo of that.

One of the things they are totally against too is any career where the female would.be alone with another male. Of course that means paramedicine is out because shifts and partners are not gender segregated. Locally, if has been a fairly male dominated field much like fire and law enforcement so our daughter had far more male partners than female, and it wad pretty much a no worries kind of thing. But we were criticized by local non ATI/Vf fundies for "allowing" her to go into the profession. Of course we stared at them like they had two heads and just peeled their faces to reveal their lizard status because the whole thought of telling our daughter that we did not allow her as a legal adult to go into paramedicine was just nutty! But, many of these extreme fundies are against them becoming nurses, medics, laaccountants, IT professionals, you name it, any career in which they might not work practically exclusively with females thus the cottage industry stuff like flower arranging and wedding cakes without store fronts and professional quarters where they would go to work without chaperones or customer face with men.

I can't believe you let your good Christian daughter peek at man bits!  

I think if I were young and starting out, I'd have a home improvement/repair business comprised entirely of females.  It seems there's a decent customer base out there of women who prefer not to have strange men in their homes when their husbands are out.  I don't even live in fundie land and I think there'd be plenty of work for a small team.

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6 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can't believe you let your good Christian daughter peek at man bits!  

I think if I were young and starting out, I'd have a home improvement/repair business comprised entirely of females.  It seems there's a decent customer base out there of women who prefer not to have strange men in their homes when their husbands are out.  I don't even live in fundie land and I think there'd be plenty of work for a small team.

Snicker snicker, ya lots of naughty bit, but not in exactly the steamy kind of circumstances! 😂😂😂

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3 hours ago, DawnM said:

I remember that episode too.   

Do you remember the episode where they sought to “prove” they didn’t segregate chores according to gender and michelle taught the boys to wash clothes and the girls were out chopping down a tree or something. What I remember as so hilarious about that is that Michelle was telling the boys something about sorting laundry and she said, “Separate out their hose...” and one of the little boys did not understand that term and said “Hose?!?” It just couldn’t have been more obvious that the boys had no understanding of clothing and laundering them. 

(Funnily enough, I never had my teen son launder my teen dd’s clothes or vice versa, because there’s a lot of potentially personal info communicated in the laundry...) 

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19 minutes ago, Quill said:

Do you remember the episode where they sought to “prove” they didn’t segregate chores according to gender and michelle taught the boys to wash clothes and the girls were out chopping down a tree or something. What I remember as so hilarious about that is that Michelle was telling the boys something about sorting laundry and she said, “Separate out their hose...” and one of the little boys did not understand that term and said “Hose?!?” It just couldn’t have been more obvious that the boys had no understanding of clothing and laundering them. 

(Funnily enough, I never had my teen son launder my teen dd’s clothes or vice versa, because there’s a lot of potentially personal info communicated in the laundry...) 

I do remember that one.  Jim Bob taught the girls to change a tire.   

My boys have done their own laundry since the age of 9 when they had to have a 30 day chore list for a Cub Scout requirement.   Laundry was one of the chores I had them do.

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My grandparents weren't even crazy as re: religion, but my grandma insisted that lighting the fireplace was "man's work."  Never mind that grandpa had palsy and lighting the fire was an act of near-arson, with his shaking hands.  But she just would not do it.

These really were NORMAL people.  

The world how she do turn.

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1 hour ago, Resilient said:

My grandparents weren't even crazy as re: religion, but my grandma insisted that lighting the fireplace was "man's work."  Never mind that grandpa had palsy and lighting the fire was an act of near-arson, with his shaking hands.  But she just would not do it.

These really were NORMAL people.  

The world how she do turn.

Not so unusual - my grandmother was remarkably feminist for her generation. After birthing eleven children, she returned to college when the baby was four. However, my grandfather, who really was one to pitch in around home, never had a clue which was the washer and which was the dryer!

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I have always insisted that splitting firewood is mans work. as did my mother and many of her age and older. I have met older women who say that splitting wood with an axe interferes with the ability to conceive, including woman who never were able to have children. I know my mother blames chopping wood on miscarriage. 

 

Dh agrees that f there are teen boys or men that are able around than a women shouldn't have to split wood.

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11 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

I do, and I want it to be men's work.

(but I'm lazy like that.)

Men do have greater upper body strength than women. 

No need to pretend away actual physical differences. If a task is going to take twice as much effort for me to accomplish as it would for my husband or son to accomplish I'd rather let them do it. 

I actually like physical work and do plenty of it; I also like being efficient though and me splitting wood is not an efficient use of effort.

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1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I just don't live in a world where anyone has to split any wood. 

 

1 hour ago, fairfarmhand said:

I do, and I want it to be men's work.

(but I'm lazy like that.)

Yep it’s mostly a make chore round here.  Though a lot of people have log splitters.   oldest DS also does the fire lighting and is way better at it than I am (I just don’t have the time to baby it for 20 minutes ....)

I am ok with somewhat gender based roles as long as they suit the people involved.  If not then chuck them out and do what works!  

 

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5 hours ago, Farrar said:

I just don't live in a world where anyone has to split any wood. 

😆

My kids are getting wood-splitting lessons this year, lol.

I know it’s veered off topic, but I’ve actually worried a lot about *accidentally insinuating gendered chores. My oldest ds spent more overall time at his bio dad’s than here as a teen, so my younger sons have witnessed their sisters and me doing VASTLY more household chores than their brother or father.
(Oldest ds does do plenty of everything - he only has brothers at his dad’s.) The little boys were a bit later to start independent chores, since the rest of us already had our own “groove”, yk?  Plus, I’ve always been a sahm while dh has always worked. Fortunately, they’ve seen us do plenty of other stuff, and they don’t seem to have gotten the wrong message.

As far as fires, I’m happy to leave the indoor fireplace to dh.  Outdoor fires are where I shine, but he usually beats me to it and I get annoyed. 12+ years of Girl Scouts here!

One of my dd’s first EMT training calls was for a completely naked man having a bad heroin ride, so...
That leads me to wonder, what is the Duggaresque take on male first responders dealing with women? Dd recently had a completely naked woman to tend to, with the help of male responders.
There’s an awful lot of nakedness in emergency services!

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5 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

I do, and I want it to be men's work.

(but I'm lazy like that.)

Same. 

We have a wood-burning furnace that heats our water. I’m grateful for the monetary savings, but it is a lot of work and must be maintained a couple times a day. 

Once, early into our wood-furnace ownership, dh was going away for a weekend and was instructing me on maintaining the fire. “...And then check this temperature meeter and if it is below 160*, add another of these huge logs, and make sure it sits in the center on top of the ash or it won’t burn...” And I just said, “Honey, no. I cannot do all this. Please switch over to oil heat for the weekend and switch it back when you return.” So that’s what we do. I never maintain the wood furnace or chop wood. I burn fossil fuels in his absence and never look back. 

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2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

😆

My kids are getting wood-splitting lessons this year, lol.

I know it’s veered off topic, but I’ve actually worried a lot about *accidentally insinuating gendered chores. My oldest ds spent more overall time at his bio dad’s than here as a teen, so my younger sons have witnessed their sisters and me doing VASTLY more household chores than their brother or father.
(Oldest ds does do plenty of everything - he only has brothers at his dad’s.) The little boys were a bit later to start independent chores, since the rest of us already had our own “groove”, yk?  Plus, I’ve always been a sahm while dh has always worked. Fortunately, they’ve seen us do plenty of other stuff, and they don’t seem to have gotten the wrong message.

As far as fires, I’m happy to leave the indoor fireplace to dh.  Outdoor fires are where I shine, but he usually beats me to it and I get annoyed. 12+ years of Girl Scouts here!

One of my dd’s first EMT training calls was for a completely naked man having a bad heroin ride, so...
That leads me to wonder, what is the Duggaresque take on male first responders dealing with women? Dd recently had a completely naked woman to tend to, with the help of male responders.
There’s an awful lot of nakedness in emergency services!

Around here the ATI folks preach against their own getting any medical training, both male and female, so they can remain righteous and not encounter these situations. Then of course when the need arises, want their medics, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, you name it. So I think it is a lot like other ridiculous rather closed religious communities...let the heathen do the dirty work and we will take advantage of it, but darn it all, we are the more righteous folks because we don't let our young participate in those careers. Neener neener! I have seen that with the local fundie nutter church. They are 100% against this level of education or participation in the world for their own, but then use EMS, hospitals, you name it all the live long day hoping the unrighteous have studied long and hard to save their lives. The pastor of the one church won't let his eldest daughter study math or science beyond 9th grade so she can be the eternal stay at home daughter and tells everyone else not to let their sons and daughters go to college, but then his profoundly developmentally delayed 7 year old attends developmental preschool and has hours of therapy a day paid for by the evil gubmint and provided by people with master's degrees in their subject material while his wife births their babies at the hospital, and when one of their kids broke her leg - nasty compound fracture - called 911 and male medics tended her. So.....your basic gigantic hypocrisy.

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1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Around here the ATI folks preach against their own getting any medical training, both male and female, so they can remain righteous and not encounter these situations. Then of course when the need arises, want their medics, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, you name it. So I think it is a lot like other ridiculous rather closed religious communities...let the heathen do the dirty work and we will take advantage of it, but darn it all, we are the more righteous folks because we don't let our young participate in those careers. Neener neener! I have seen that with the local fundie nutter church. They are 100% against this level of education or participation in the world for their own, but then use EMS, hospitals, you name it all the live long day hoping the unrighteous have studied long and hard to save their lives. The pastor of the one church won't let his eldest daughter study math or science beyond 9th grade so she can be the eternal stay at home daughter and tells everyone else not to let their sons and daughters go to college, but then his profoundly developmentally delayed 7 year old attends developmental preschool and has hours of therapy a day paid for by the evil gubmint and provided by people with master's degrees in their subject material while his wife births their babies at the hospital, and when one of their kids broke her leg - nasty compound fracture - called 911 and male medics tended her. So.....your basic gigantic hypocrisy.

Thank goodness we’re a family of heathens, lol.

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2 hours ago, Quill said:

Same. 

We have a wood-burning furnace that heats our water. I’m grateful for the monetary savings, but it is a lot of work and must be maintained a couple times a day. 

Once, early into our wood-furnace ownership, dh was going away for a weekend and was instructing me on maintaining the fire. “...And then check this temperature meeter and if it is below 160*, add another of these huge logs, and make sure it sits in the center on top of the ash or it won’t burn...” And I just said, “Honey, no. I cannot do all this. Please switch over to oil heat for the weekend and switch it back when you return.” So that’s what we do. I never maintain the wood furnace or chop wood. I burn fossil fuels in his absence and never look back. 

We have an exterior wood boiler and burn propane when we will be gone. For years I had these wonderful teen boys to stock wood, split it, etc. and then they all had the nerve to grow up! Sheesh. So now I am taking care of it when dh is gone. Splitting though is just not my game. I don't seem to possess the upper body strength to really get that axe swinging well enough to do the job other than using the hatchet to split small pieces for kindling, and while I can do it, I am slow at that compared to my sons and husband. But, I am learning.

This will most definitely not be our retirement house. I can see how physically difficult this will be in our later years, and burning exclusively propane for this place is quite expensive.

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2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Thank goodness we’re a family of heathens, lol.

I raised a heathen, and I am quite proud of it! I have two nieces, one is an ADN and one is an EKG tech, IV tech, and some other certifications that I can't remember who is now the office manager a cardiology clinic. I am proud of them too! I have a nephew in the N.G., and well, he has done some rescue stuff and body parts have been seen. Surprisingly 😁, still a non perverted person! 😉 I seriously wish these extreme religious groups would take a moment to think rationally.

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15 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

I can't believe you let your good Christian daughter peek at man bits!  

I think if I were young and starting out, I'd have a home improvement/repair business comprised entirely of females.  It seems there's a decent customer base out there of women who prefer not to have strange men in their homes when their husbands are out.  I don't even live in fundie land and I think there'd be plenty of work for a small team.

I have a regular plumber who is my first choice to call who is a lovely woman, and from what she's said, she never is short on work, even at a higher rate, because women are more comfortable with women. She has had a series of female apprentices/helpers.  I do think I'd be nervous about going into peoples homes as a female professional-it's one reason why I teach piano at the community center, and not out of my home or in other people's homes. 

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On 5/9/2021 at 8:02 PM, BlsdMama said:

Not so unusual - my grandmother was remarkably feminist for her generation. After birthing eleven children, she returned to college when the baby was four. However, my grandfather, who really was one to pitch in around home, never had a clue which was the washer and which was the dryer!

My other grandparents kept pretty even on things.  My granddad took over cooking when he retired, but that was largely self defense.  If these two were still alive, they would be more than 130 years old, so it was really a different time.

 

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There's a new podcast from the guy who knew Josh when he was a teenager. 

 

Spoiler if you're not going to listen...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He told Josh that he was "victimized" by someone and Josh told this person. Gothardism is evil. 

 

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:11 AM, Faith-manor said:

Around here the ATI folks preach against their own getting any medical training, both male and female, so they can remain righteous and not encounter these situations. Then of course when the need arises, want their medics, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, you name it. So I think it is a lot like other ridiculous rather closed religious communities...let the heathen do the dirty work and we will take advantage of it, but darn it all, we are the more righteous folks because we don't let our young participate in those careers. Neener neener! I have seen that with the local fundie nutter church. They are 100% against this level of education or participation in the world for their own, but then use EMS, hospitals, you name it all the live long day hoping the unrighteous have studied long and hard to save their lives. The pastor of the one church won't let his eldest daughter study math or science beyond 9th grade so she can be the eternal stay at home daughter and tells everyone else not to let their sons and daughters go to college, but then his profoundly developmentally delayed 7 year old attends developmental preschool and has hours of therapy a day paid for by the evil gubmint and provided by people with master's degrees in their subject material while his wife births their babies at the hospital, and when one of their kids broke her leg - nasty compound fracture - called 911 and male medics tended her. So.....your basic gigantic hypocrisy.

ATI has changed this stance somewhat, at least for males.  They receive actual EMT training at ALERT, though what I’ve seen it was sort of abysmal. We have a number of ATI families still in my area and the boys tend to go off to ALERT and then come home and join the local fire departments.  And then they wind up in my EMT classes thinking they know everything because of ALERT.

 

Also, there is so. Much. Nakedness. In EMS. 

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3 women including me heated with wood for a couple of Vermont winters.  One kind of avoided it a lot, and another was often with her BF after work, so I ended up starting most of the fires.  I got really good at it, especially since the first winter we ended up having to use fairly green wood so it took at lot of fussing to get a good fire going.  

DH thinks that he should man up and make all of our campfires, but actually I am far better at it.  We clash just a tad over this.

I wish that those outdoors wood burners that enhance gas furnace efficiency were legal in CA but alas they are not.  So we have nothing but propane for heat in our cabin, since it’s also not situated well for solar.  This makes me very nervous.  I hate being that dependent on just one external option.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

ATI has changed this stance somewhat, at least for males.  They receive actual EMT training at ALERT, though what I’ve seen it was sort of abysmal. We have a number of ATI families still in my area and the boys tend to go off to ALERT and then come home and join the local fire departments.  And then they wind up in my EMT classes thinking they know everything because of ALERT.

 

Also, there is so. Much. Nakedness. In EMS. 

😂😂😂 Yes, so much naked!

I think what they get is rudimentary CPR, but not certification, and then some American Red Cross type first aid. I know they THINK they know everything because well, that is the ATI way. So much naivety.

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5 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

😂😂😂 Yes, so much naked!

I think what they get is rudimentary CPR, but not certification, and then some American Red Cross type first aid. I know they THINK they know everything because well, that is the ATI way. So much naivety.

In their phase 3, they can actually choose to take the Texas EMT class. However—my state doesn’t recognize or reciprocate the NREMT certification so they had to redo it in our state.  I don’t know how much was really poor education and how much was sheer annoyance by being taught by a female paramedic.  Apparently they can also take firefighting and diving credentials at ALERT too.
 

The arrogance and the way they treated females really annoyed me, and I usually nip it right in the bud.

https://alertacademy.com/alert/training/advanced-training/emergency-medicine/

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22 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

In their phase 3, they can actually choose to take the Texas EMT class. However—my state doesn’t recognize or reciprocate the NREMT certification so they had to redo it in our state.  I don’t know how much was really poor education and how much was sheer annoyance by being taught by a female paramedic.  Apparently they can also take firefighting and diving credentials at ALERT too.
 

The arrogance and the way they treated females really annoyed me, and I usually nip it right in the bud.

https://alertacademy.com/alert/training/advanced-training/emergency-medicine/

It is not reciprocal here either. I think both of our states have more robust paramedicine than some so EMT basic does more than others, and EMT advanced does a lot more. I could.be wrong in that, but even NJ allowed fewer procedures, fewer drugs, etc. than here.

That arrogance would just light me up if I had to deal with it!

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On 5/10/2021 at 8:51 AM, maize said:

Humans are way better at emotion-based thinking than at rational thinking.

Rationally, in their theology, God made them naked. And even though Adam and Eve "messed up" things for humankind, God is still making people naked.

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