Sharyl Attkisson investigates origin of Covid-19

[HeartString]

48 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I'm throwing this out there even though it's just one person's perspective...   But... My brother is a scientist who has been on Covid research teams.  (He's a pulmonologist.)  He's been to China numerous times and has worked with scientists there and around the world on various research projects over the years.  Anyway, it's always interesting to hear his views.  After Covid appeared he said that the scientists in his world (both in China and also all around the world) were not surprised at all.  The wet markets in China were well known and had quite the reputation.  They were actually surprised that something like this hadn't happened even sooner.   These are scientists from top research universities and hospitals from around the world and this seemed to be their general reaction. 

Not anywhere in the same league, of course, but I wasn’t surprised because I’ve been watching NOVA and other sciency documentaries for years. ALL of the pandemic ones have scientists talking about animal to human transmission.  The ones that talk about the first SARS always talk about bats, influenza ones talk about pigs. Scientists have been sounding the warning bells for a pandemic forever. I think it was assumed that it would’ve flu, but after SARS and MERS it being a coronavirus wasn’t a shock.  

I watched one on SARS last year that was so uncanny that I had to check the release date.  It had come out in 2015.  The scientist looks straight at the camera and talk about asymptotic transmission being a terrible possibility. And that one talked about studying bats.   

A lab accident or leak or whatever is a possibility but it being a natural occurrence isn’t crazy.  It was predicted. Unless that was all advance ground work for a future possible lab accident, but that sounds like tin foil hat stuff.   
 

Edited May 7, 2021 by HeartString

[lauraw4321]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:50 PM, BusyMom5 said:

When the report came put a month or so ago from the WHO, I read it.  I find it very concerning that we still don't know the species this jumped from- and they aren't doing much to find out.  I do think it leaked from the lab- accidentally- and the Chinese government has covered it up.  I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist,  but I think its odd that we are asked to think this the least likely option- with no evidence either way.   I think the Chinese people- and all people of the world who have lost loved ones this year- deserve to know if it was a leak.  It could help change future policies about containment,  procedures,  etc.  

Just quoting to say I agree this is a likely explanation. And the possibility of an accidental lab leak shouldn’t be relegated to a conspiracy theory. 

[KungFuPanda]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:34 PM, Fritz said:

After reading The Hot Zone several years ago I thought it was just a matter of time before a viral pandemic would result from a leak from one of these labs. Is that what happened this time? I have suspected that to be the case from the beginning. The wet market story just doesn't hold up IMO.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/04/27/sharyl_attkisson_investigates_covid_19.html

No. Just stop. 

[Laura Corin]

Stepping in just a second, as someone who lived in mainland China for six years. Wet markets are the equivalent of local supermarkets for most city residents in China.  Live animals, meat,  tofu and veg are all sold in one big space, although in separate areas, and refrigeration is uncommon. What allows the practice to be hygienic - I used to buy food there - is daily shopping, quick turnover and high heat cooking methods.  Raw salad meals are not common.  So the hygiene is based around the food preparation methods.

When you add in exotic animals carrying diseases that can transfer to other mammals, including humans, relevant hygiene methods are absolutely not in place. I used to walk through the live chicken area on my way to the veg. If there had been an airborne pathogen, there would have been zero barrier - no glass wall, no distance. I walked right by the chicken cages, so if there had been diseased exotic animals in those cages instead, I would have breathed in a lung full. 

I find the wet market theory completely credible.

[Farrar]

I also think it was likely the wet market. And Laura's characterization is absolutely right, obviously.

But to the possibility of a lab accident... that would ALSO be a natural transmission. We know from the overwhelming consensus of scientists studying the virus itself that everything about it is natural. Labs study naturally occurring viruses and other pathogens. If its release was somehow the result of improper lab procedures, it was the result of improper procedures after studying a virus found in the wild - because that's the sort of thing labs study.

People hear "lab!" and they freak out that there was some targeted, engineered thing. But we know from study that's not what happened. We don't know exactly where the natural transmission happened, but we do know it's a naturally occurring virus.

[lauraw4321]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I also think it was likely the wet market. And Laura's characterization is absolutely right, obviously.

But to the possibility of a lab accident... that would ALSO be a natural transmission. We know from the overwhelming consensus of scientists studying the virus itself that everything about it is natural. Labs study naturally occurring viruses and other pathogens. If its release was somehow the result of improper lab procedures, it was the result of improper procedures after studying a virus found in the wild - because that's the sort of thing labs study.

People hear "lab!" and they freak out that there was some targeted, engineered thing. But we know from study that's not what happened. We don't know exactly where the natural transmission happened, but we do know it's a naturally occurring virus.

QFT.

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

I also think it was likely the wet market. And Laura's characterization is absolutely right, obviously.

But to the possibility of a lab accident... that would ALSO be a natural transmission. We know from the overwhelming consensus of scientists studying the virus itself that everything about it is natural. Labs study naturally occurring viruses and other pathogens. If its release was somehow the result of improper lab procedures, it was the result of improper procedures after studying a virus found in the wild - because that's the sort of thing labs study.

People hear "lab!" and they freak out that there was some targeted, engineered thing. But we know from study that's not what happened. We don't know exactly where the natural transmission happened, but we do know it's a naturally occurring virus.

Also, even if the lab leak theory were true, I don't understand how anyone could argue that the US isn't just as complicit as China if we were aware of the risks of gain of function research and then ignored them by funding joint research with China. I mean, it's not like respected American epidemiologists weren't warning about these risks. 

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/deadly-pathogen-research-controversy/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5

But again, the consensus among the world's leading experts in the virological and epidemiological community is that this was a naturally occurring virus, so I don't intend to substitute my lay opinion for their decades of collective expertise. YMMV.  

[Fritz]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

Also, even if the lab leak theory were true, I don't understand how anyone could argue that the US isn't just as complicit as China if we were aware of the risks of gain of function research and then ignored them by funding joint research with China. I mean, it's not like respected American epidemiologists weren't warning about these risks. 

 

Which is exactly why I am suspicious of there being little interest in investigating the origin, Of course, it's from a wet market. CYA, nothing to see here.

[lauraw4321]

21 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Which is exactly why I am suspicious of there being little interest in investigating the origin, Of course, it's from a wet market. CYA, nothing to see here.

Right.  It's more convenient for everyone. I don't know where the virus came from.  Both wet market and unintentional lab leak are possible. I hope scientists can definitively answer.

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, Fritz said:

Which is exactly why I am suspicious of there being little interest in investigating the origin, Of course, it's from a wet market. CYA, nothing to see here.

And the answer is that we don't know and probably won't know. Frankly, there's plenty to blame China for one way or another -- they were very opaque with the international community in a way that almost certainly caused untold deaths. 

So then ultimately, focusing on this is a distraction. 

[EKS]

30 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Frankly, there's plenty to blame China for one way or another -- they were very opaque with the international community in a way that almost certainly caused untold deaths.

I agree that this is where the focus needs to be. 

I mean, sure, tightening up whatever goes on in wet markets would also be a positive step, given that folks in China are part of the global movement of people, and if it was due to a laboratory accident, tightening those procedures up as well. 

But the real crime was what the Chinese government did after the jump to humans.

Edited May 7, 2021 by EKS

[Farrar]

And there's nothing suspicious about the fact that there hasn't been a lot of focus on the origins of the virus. Like, obviously the Chinese don't want to focus on it because it makes them look bad. And the rest of the world doesn't have access to the literal places where they can do the research to focus on the origins, so anything we do is purely speculative. Plus, the primary focus should be on researching the variants, the vaccines, the spread, etc. Which it all has been.

Obviously in a more long term systematic way, China's obscuring of the facts is a problem and needs focus. But so do a lot of things about health care systems. There's plenty of blame and big picture issues to go around. None of which are conspiracy related - they're just countries and systems being resistant to change and interested in profits and protecting the people in power and all that.

[Penelope]

I think the wet market idea died a long time ago. That doesn’t mean that humans didn’t get it from an animal intermediary, but it most likely wasn’t at the Wuhan wet market. China CDC said many months ago that they don’t think it was the wet market. There were many samples taken, and they couldn’t find the virus. Some of the early patients were indeed traced to the wet market, but other work showed that it probably didn’t start there. 
 

This article is from a year ago. And the WHO commission reviewed this data, too. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wuhan-wet-market-was-not-the-origin-of-the-coronavirus-pandemic/ar-BB14KRSY

[Farrar]

I feel like I would need way more than a year old Daily Mail article to discount the idea that wet markets in general were not a likely source of the original transmission. I remember reading about that at the time, and as I recall, the Chinese CDC (and I'm taking everything from the Chinese government with a grain of salt) said it didn't begin at that particular wet market. But the practice of selling exotic meat in China is still, as I understand it, one of the most likely origin stories here. The lab is another possibility. I honestly think they may know, but it's China. I don't expect the Chinese government to openly share.

[Penelope]

🙄 It’s not only in one daily mail article. It’s wherever you care to look. The WHO report from last month does not think it came from the Huanan wet market, after looking at the samples, and that is the market most closely associated with the original outbreak.

ITA about not liking the idea of wet markets and that it still is an open question. 

[SeaConquest]

This is why lay people should not opine on this subject, IMO. If you cannot understand this thread, don't even bother.

Edited May 10, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

This is why lay people should not opine on this subject, IMO. If you cannot understand this thread, don't even bother.

Nope, I don’t understand it, lol. Not my area of expertise!! 

[Faith-manor]

5 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

This is why lay people should not opine on this subject, IMO. If you cannot understand this thread, don't even bother.

LOL, he needs to speak English please!!! 😂

[SeaConquest]

Kristian Andersen, by way of background for those that don't know, is one of the world's leading virologists/immunologists. He was discussed/criticized in the Medium article that was posted above. His lab is here in San Diego at Scripps, and is a great follow on Twitter. Not all of his posts are this technical, but obviously this discussion was intended to be between experts, which was my point. We think we can take articles from Medium or Real Clear Politics that are written by other lay people like us, and substitute the consensus of these kinds of experts for that of our own because we have done our "research," and it just isn't true. If you cannot follow that thread, you have no ability to conduct actual research on this subject, and the easy ability to just Google something that confirms our own biases has deluded us into thinking that we can.   

ETA: The Andersen lab link: https://andersen-lab.com/

Edited May 10, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Roadrunner]

People keep talking about those wet markets, but we grew up with them. I mean it’s a norm pretty much in most countries to be shopping in one. The problem is trade in exotic animals. And not just in China. Bushmeat is going to bring us another one of those viruses from Africa. 
I don’t know where it came from. Obviously it’s good to investigate so we can learn from this debacle. China is most definitely culpable not because the virus originated there one way or another, but because it hid the truth during the critical time for containment. So we shouldn’t let up on them.

Frankly knowing just a bit about bats, I also think natural origin isn’t surprising at all. I was shocked by Redford’s assertion though. Until that interview I didn’t consider the lab origin, but I do now. I don’t think that it matters, not unless they knew sooner than we think about the virus.  Researching coronaviruses isn’t anything controversial as far as I can tell. It’s not alerting the world when one is running rampant and threatening people that is a crime. 

[Longtime Lurker]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:21 PM, Katy said:

I did come across one interesting conspiracy theory. Apparently many people in South Korea think the virus was engineered solely as a weapon to kill Kim Jong-un.  They believe it did kill him almost a year ago, and the person appearing as him is a body double. And that the military is in some sort of power struggle to choose his replacement. He apparently killed all the likely candidates. 

Wow. Very creative!

[Penelope]

22 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Kristian Andersen, by way of background for those that don't know, is one of the world's leading virologists/immunologists. He was discussed/criticized in the Medium article that was posted above. His lab is here in San Diego at Scripps, and is a great follow on Twitter. Not all of his posts are this technical, but obviously this discussion was intended to be between experts, which was my point. We think we can take articles from Medium or Real Clear Politics that are written by other lay people like us, and substitute the consensus of these kinds of experts for that of our own because we have done our "research," and it just isn't true. If you cannot follow that thread, you have no ability to conduct actual research on this subject, and the easy ability to just Google something that confirms our own biases has deluded us into thinking that we can.   

ETA: The Andersen lab link: https://andersen-lab.com/

Good points. 
 

I would say this is actually true for a whole lot of things surrounding Covid. 
 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

Some very big names in virology and epidemiology publish an article calling for further investigation of all hypotheses.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1

Quote

In May 2020, the World Health Assembly requested that the World Health Organization (WHO) director-general work closely with partners to determine the origins of SARS-CoV-2 (2). In November, the Terms of Reference for a China–WHO joint study were released (3). The information, data, and samples for the study's first phase were collected and summarized by the Chinese half of the team; the rest of the team built on this analysis. Although there were no findings in clear support of either a natural spillover or a lab accident, the team assessed a zoonotic spillover from an intermediate host as “likely to very likely,” and a laboratory incident as “extremely unlikely” [(4), p. 9]. Furthermore, the two theories were not given balanced consideration. Only 4 of the 313 pages of the report and its annexes addressed the possibility of a laboratory accident (4). Notably, WHO Director-General Tedros Ghebreyesus commented that the report's consideration of evidence supporting a laboratory accident was insufficient and offered to provide additional resources to fully evaluate the possibility (5).

Quote

As scientists with relevant expertise, we agree with the WHO director-general (5), the United States and 13 other countries (6), and the European Union (7) that greater clarity about the origins of this pandemic is necessary and feasible to achieve. We must take hypotheses about both natural and laboratory spillovers seriously until we have sufficient data. A proper investigation should be transparent, objective, data-driven, inclusive of broad expertise, subject to independent oversight, and responsibly managed to minimize the impact of conflicts of interest. Public health agencies and research laboratories alike need to open their records to the public. Investigators should document the veracity and provenance of data from which analyses are conducted and conclusions drawn, so that analyses are reproducible by independent experts.

 

Quote

Finally, in this time of unfortunate anti-Asian sentiment in some countries, we note that at the beginning of the pandemic, it was Chinese doctors, scientists, journalists, and citizens who shared with the world crucial information about the spread of the virus—often at great personal cost (8, 9). We should show the same determination in promoting a dispassionate science-based discourse on this difficult but important issue.

 

[Fritz]

4 hours ago, Penelope said:

Some very big names in virology and epidemiology publish an article calling for further investigation of all hypotheses.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1

 

I was just coming over to post this too. It's past time to look into this. 

[Pen]

On 5/10/2021 at 2:38 PM, SeaConquest said:

Kristian Andersen, by way of background for those that don't know, is one of the world's leading virologists/immunologists. He was discussed/criticized in the Medium article that was posted above. His lab is here in San Diego at Scripps, and is a great follow on Twitter. Not all of his posts are this technical, but obviously this discussion was intended to be between experts, which was my point. We think we can take articles from Medium or Real Clear Politics that are written by other lay people like us, and substitute the consensus of these kinds of experts for that of our own because we have done our "research," and it just isn't true. If you cannot follow that thread, you have no ability to conduct actual research on this subject, and the easy ability to just Google something that confirms our own biases has deluded us into thinking that we can.   

ETA: The Andersen lab link: https://andersen-lab.com/

Could you clarify exactly what you are referring to? When I link it seems to be the general home page for Andersen lab

https://andersen-lab.com/

 

Or something in Twitter?

https://mobile.twitter.com/k_g_andersen

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Pen

[SeaConquest]

23 minutes ago, Pen said:

Could you clarify exactly what you are referring to? When I link it seems to be the general home page for Andersen lab

https://andersen-lab.com/

 

Or something in Twitter?

https://mobile.twitter.com/k_g_andersen

 

Read this tweet thread: 

 

[Pen]

On 5/6/2021 at 8:45 PM, KungFuPanda said:

No. Just stop. 

?   Only one side view is allowed ? 
 

why not just use the “ignore” function liberally ? 

[Pen]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Read this tweet thread: 

 

fascinating! 
 

 

as is an article from Baltimore it led me to

 

For myself I think that both wet markets and Laboratories could be a source for serious infectious diseases emerging, laboratories clearly have had escapes in past,  and that both should be dealt with as such. 
 

I am concerned that choosing one as culprit and ignoring the other is itself a problem. 

 

Because no matter which was culprit for SARS2, or even if a 3rd option was, either laboratories or wet markets with exotic species could be the source of new trouble happening right now, or in 10 minutes, or days, weeks, months, or years. Both situations seem like potential tragedy just waiting to happen. And to happen again. And again. Till adequately dealt with. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

?   Only one side view is allowed ? 
 

why not just use the “ignore” function liberally ? 

I think it’s important to hear all sides — perhaps especially the ones we disagree with, because sometimes “the other side” makes  some valid points or shares some information we might not have learned about, had we only been chatting with the people who agree with us. 

Sometimes we get angry when people disagree with us, but very often, alternative viewpoints can also get us to think a little more about our own beliefs about certain topics — and I don’t think that’s a bad thing, even if the end result is nothing more than feeling even more convinced that we were right all along!

[BusyMom5]

Reinforces my opinion- I guess I've been upgraded out of conspiracy theorist.  I'm very bothered by the idea that we cannot question authority, and that we cannot discuss the origins because it could lead to anti-Asian hate.  

[SeaConquest]

4 hours ago, Plum said:

Resurrecting this thread since the WSJ came out with their report. 
Anyone care to comment? Anyone change their minds since it hit mainstream news?

Intelligence on Sick Staff at Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate on Covid-19 Origin

Report says researchers went to hospital in November 2019, shortly before confirmed outbreak; adds to calls for probe of whether virus escaped lab

 

Whether it was intentional or not I have no problem questioning China on this as a matter of world security. It’s supposed to be why they belong to WHO in the first place. Pandemics effect us all. 

As far as what good does it do? Well, we sanction countries for the nuclear programs. We sanction countries for all sorts of behavior that would fall in line with starting a pandemic.

If we still don’t know what happened then we have no means to prevent it from happening again. 

I read it and did find it interesting.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Reinforces my opinion- I guess I've been upgraded out of conspiracy theorist.  I'm very bothered by the idea that we cannot question authority, and that we cannot discuss the origins because it could lead to anti-Asian hate.  

I looked back over this thread to see what the general sentiment was (I read it before, but never participated, I guess because this aspect (where it came from) of the pandemic hasn’t  had personal implications for me at this time). It seems to me that the majority of people didn’t discount that it’s possible it came from a lab leak, and didn’t say we shouldn’t discuss, but they wanted something other than conspiracy theorist sources saying it was manufactured. And it seemed like the biggest disagreement was regarding the difference between an accidental lab escape and a purposely engineered bio weapon of some kind, which are two entirely different things.

As far as anti-Asian hate goes with this topic, it’s not that it’s totally impossible that it could turn out to be engineered in some way, for me it’s more the eagerness to jump to that conclusion (long before there was any evidence to support it), and the fact that that eagerness is most often coming from the direction of people who have a bad track record as regards racial bias. It would be different if it weren’t for the fact that there has been a very definite increase in anti-Asian hate crimes and sentiment. But there has been, and I think that deserves recognition and sensitivity. 

[Not_a_Number]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:20 PM, Not_a_Number said:

Technically, this article didn't actually cite any scientists: it just said they weren't willing to be cited. 

But actually, I've seen Slate run something about this recently: 

https://slate.com/technology/2021/04/covid-lab-leak-theory-pandemic-research.html

This is actually a source and it actually cites a scientist 😄 . I haven't researched this much, but I'll say that at some point DH was looking at the Broad Institute as a possible place to work -- it's a real place. 

I’ll note that one of my contributions to this thread was some cautious support of the leak theory 🤷‍♀️. I don’t remember either being called a conspiracy theorist or calling anyone else one.

[lauraw4321]

43 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ll note that one of my contributions to this thread was some cautious support of the leak theory 🤷‍♀️. I don’t remember either being called a conspiracy theorist or calling anyone else one.

There was a lot of "No, just stop" but maybe you have the poster muted?

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

There was a lot of "No, just stop" but maybe you have the poster muted?

No, I don't have anyone on here muted, I don't think. But anyway, no one called me personally a conspiracy theorist is what I said. 

[Ausmumof3]

5 hours ago, Plum said:

Resurrecting this thread since the WSJ came out with their report. 
Anyone care to comment? Anyone change their minds since it hit mainstream news?

Intelligence on Sick Staff at Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate on Covid-19 Origin

Report says researchers went to hospital in November 2019, shortly before confirmed outbreak; adds to calls for probe of whether virus escaped lab

 

Whether it was intentional or not I have no problem questioning China on this as a matter of world security. It’s supposed to be why they belong to WHO in the first place. Pandemics effect us all. 

As far as what good does it do? Well, we sanction countries for the nuclear programs. We sanction countries for all sorts of behavior that would fall in line with starting a pandemic.

If we still don’t know what happened then we have no means to prevent it from happening again. 

Yep and yep.  It matters because if it leaked from a lab, even if it was just a wild virus there’s a need for more work to improve bio security measures in this kind of research.  Otherwise it will happen again.  If it’s an issue with the specific lab it needs cleaning up.  If the lab is following all appropriate measures and it still leaked we need to know that the measures aren’t actually adequate and all the labs will need to change.  It seems important to know if it’s at all possible to get at the answer.

[mjbucks1]

I did not post on this thread originally because I did not have the time to discuss it (I was preparing for a big speech and debate tournament).  I have always thought the lab in Wuhan was where the virus originated.  I do not think it was intentional, but the US NIH was helping to fund research on conronaviruses at this lab.  In 2017 and  2018, diplomats sent memos to Washington regarding the lack of safety at the lab and asking for help in increasing the safety of these labs.  This was reported in the spring of last year.  The research paper coming out of the lab in October 2017 showed: "Cell entry studies demonstrated that three newly identified SARSr-CoVs with different S protein [spike protein] sequences are all able to use human ACE2 as the receptor, further exhibiting the close relationship between strains in this cave and SARS-CoV". (I will link the research study below).

This sounds a lot like Covid-19.

I do think it is important to know the origins so we can take steps to lessen the risk of this happening again.

https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698

 

 

[KSera]

28 minutes ago, mjbucks1 said:

I did not post on this thread originally because I did not have the time to discuss it (I was preparing for a big speech and debate tournament).  I have always thought the lab in Wuhan was where the virus originated.  I do not think it was intentional, but the US NIH was helping to fund research on conronaviruses at this lab.  In 2017 and  2018, diplomats sent memos to Washington regarding the lack of safety at the lab and asking for help in increasing the safety of these labs.  This was reported in the spring of last year.  The research paper coming out of the lab in October 2017 showed: "Cell entry studies demonstrated that three newly identified SARSr-CoVs with different S protein [spike protein] sequences are all able to use human ACE2 as the receptor, further exhibiting the close relationship between strains in this cave and SARS-CoV". (I will link the research study below).

This sounds a lot like Covid-19.

I do think it is important to know the origins so we can take steps to lessen the risk of this happening again.

https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698

 

 

Thanks for linking. I agree we will want to learn what we can to do what we can to prevent this from happening in the future. The linked study actually makes it seem to me possibly even more likely to have come from bats as from the lab, though it could have been either. It suggests either way, bats may well be the original source. It describes a colony of bats they were studying in the province that was harboring multiple different coronaviruses like this with various S proteins that could bind to human ACE-2 receptors. 

“We found bat SARSr-CoV strains with different S proteins that can all use the receptor of SARS-CoV in humans (ACE2) for cell entry, suggesting diverse SARSr-CoVs capable of direct transmission to humans are circulating in bats in this cave. Our current study therefore offers a clearer picture on the evolutionary origin of SARS-CoV and highlights the risk of future emergence of SARS-like diseases.”

[Ausmumof3]

11 minutes ago, KSera said:

Thanks for linking. I agree we will want to learn what we can to do what we can to prevent this from happening in the future. The linked study actually makes it seem to me possibly even more likely to have come from bats as from the lab, though it could have been either. It suggests either way, bats may well be the original source. It describes a colony of bats they were studying in the province that was harboring multiple different coronaviruses like this with various S proteins that could bind to human ACE-2 receptors. 

“We found bat SARSr-CoV strains with different S proteins that can all use the receptor of SARS-CoV in humans (ACE2) for cell entry, suggesting diverse SARSr-CoVs capable of direct transmission to humans are circulating in bats in this cave. Our current study therefore offers a clearer picture on the evolutionary origin of SARS-CoV and highlights the risk of future emergence of SARS-like diseases.”

you probably know this but its not mutually exclusive.  One possible explanation is that the virus had been brought from the bats being studied and stored to be researched in the lab.  Like it can be a bat origin virus being studied in the lab.  

[Ausmumof3]

15 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

There is another reason it matters if it came out of a lab that isn't so much about lab security.  I mean preventing lab accidents is a big deal but specifically related to covid.....if it came from a lab....what kind of data does that lab have that we don't? 

 

If there is a lab that has been researching this thing in lab conditions for 6 months longer than we have (or even longer than that) what information could that lab data provide to those who are looking for treatments?  Could that data help to create an antiviral pill that zaps this sucker before it really gets bad?  Finding out if there's information to help us fight what's right in front of us is as important, if not more important, than figuring out who to blame or how to prevent future accidents. 

 

It would be nice to think so but I think some of the information they had has been destroyed hasn’t it?  Again it’s ages since I gave this much thought but I seem to remember reading about a fair bit of “cleaning up” happening. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/26/science/covid-19-origins-who.html#click=https://t.co/zczLL1Ybii

looks like more calls for a longer investigation.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

you probably know this but its not mutually exclusive.  One possible explanation is that the virus had been brought from the bats being studied and stored to be researched in the lab.  Like it can be a bat origin virus being studied in the lab.  

Oh, totally. It’s just a different kind of thing with different repercussions if it originated in wild bats vs somehow being manufactured in a lab. The latter already seemed unlikely, I was just saying in light of this study, that looks even more unlikely. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Well of course that's absolutely possible.   And it's possible that some has been destroyed but not all.  Which means that it's worth it to try to find out, no?  I am not suggesting starting world war 3 over the data, I am simply suggesting that "they probably destroyed info" isn't really a good enough reason to just up and write it all off as not worthwhile to find out. 

I’m not one for the up and write it off model.  I hope the scientists do get some answers although it seems impossible at this point.  Australia has been pretty vocal in calling for an investigation which has certainly raised tensions and had some flow on effects here with all the trade embargoes etc.  I think also for countries like the UK/US now the outbreaks are coming under control they will have more space to start investigating a bit more seriously perhaps.

[Ausmumof3]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, totally. It’s just a different kind of thing with different repercussions if it originated in wild bats vs somehow being manufactured in a lab. The latter already seemed unlikely, I was just saying in light of this study, that looks even more unlikely. 

Yep.  It doesn’t need to have been deliberately manufactured however, it could have been a wild virus stored in the lab or a virus that’s been being studied in human cells without artificial manipulation (if I understand correctly - my understanding of viruses is still kind of fuzzy).

[HeartString]

5 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I have heard that AU has been more vocal with regards to calling for investigations.  I can say that in the US, it *feels* like anyone who suggests addition investigation is "canceled" as an anti-asian racist. 

 

 

Biden asked for the intelligence community to do a more "intense" investigation into the origins and get a report to him in 90 days, whatever intense means in this context. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/26/biden-orders-us-intelligence-to-intensify-investigation-into-covid-19-origins.html

 

I know its asking too much, but I just do not understand why *any* of this is leading to anti-Asian violence.  I understand that it is, I just don't understand the impulse.  Even if it *was  a bio weapon purposefully unleashed by China, the Asian lady at the grocery store or on the bus had nothing to do with it, let alone the third or fourth gen college or high school student, let alone that not every Asian in American even is Chinese.  I don't feel the need to go throw rocks at every white guy after a school shooting, ya know?     ugh. 

[Penelope]

32 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

you probably know this but its not mutually exclusive.  One possible explanation is that the virus had been brought from the bats being studied and stored to be researched in the lab.  Like it can be a bat origin virus being studied in the lab.  

Yes, there are some questions about whether the lower BSL level they were using for these experiments was appropriate, and how safe the precautions were even for the field work. 
 

And because many cases are mild or asymptomatic, there is a good chance if might not be immediately noticed if this virus infected a lab worker. 
 

I know nothing about this publication, but I thought this was a good interview laying out the perspective of Richard Ebright, one of the signers of the Open Letter calling for an investigation upthread. https://www.independentsciencenews.org/commentaries/an-interview-with-richard-ebright-anthony-fauci-francis-collins-systematically-thwarted/  Sounds like this whole thing goes deep, deep into history of research, politics, US and foreign institutions. 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Penelope

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think that presumes that China has more interest in helping people than in covering it up.  That doesn't mean I am discounting what you are saying, because that would make sense.  I just can't put anything past the Chinese government, including withholding lab research from their own vaccine researchers, in an attempt to cover up their screw ups. 

Oh, absolutely. I expect all authoritarian governments to be way more interested in covering up for their screw-ups than in helping others. That's just how they roll. 

[melmichigan]

We don't know enough at this point to even speculated, but it could certainly be possible if they were studying coronavirus in bats that they were infected by said bats somewhere in the field where they weren't taking adequate precautions, or thought they were taking adequate precautions based on what they knew at the time. 🤷‍♀️

[mjbucks1]

3 hours ago, KSera said:

Thanks for linking. I agree we will want to learn what we can to do what we can to prevent this from happening in the future. The linked study actually makes it seem to me possibly even more likely to have come from bats as from the lab, though it could have been either. It suggests either way, bats may well be the original source. It describes a colony of bats they were studying in the province that was harboring multiple different coronaviruses like this with various S proteins that could bind to human ACE-2 receptors. 

 

The thing is, the cave where the bats that they were studying came from was about 1000 miles from Wuhan.  I do think bats were the original source (in fact I think most scientists agree on that point).  

[mjbucks1]

And one thing we should not forget is that a breach in security at a Beijing was the probable cause of two SARS cases that caused an outbreak of SARS in 2004.  Unfortunately the lab allowed the sick worker to travel between Beijing and her home (infecting her mother who ended up dying).  My point is that this has happened before, so it is not beyond the realm of possibility. 

 There have also been outbreaks linked to labs in Taiwan and Singapore.  SARS tends to be more deadly, which is why it is easier to confine it.  It is good that Covid is not as deadly as SARS, but this is also what allowed it to spread so easily.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC416634/