Vaccine hesitancy and side effects

[Not_a_Number]

16 minutes ago, kbutton said:

But retreating would be sad. 

I probably won't, because I'm compulsive about this 😉. I'm just feeling a bit down today overall. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

I was just defending the right of someone who is low risk and low exposure to wait for more info without being harassed to death.

I think everyone obviously has the right to wait without harassment. I hope no one is actually harassing people to get vaccinated, because that would both be jerky AND counterproductive. 

[Catwoman]

18 hours ago, shinyhappypeople said:

More or less.  Honestly, I'm going to step away from the conversation now.  My point in hopping on this thread was to show one example of why someone might choose to delay or decline the vaccine for non-crunchy, non-conspiracy theory reasons.   

I don’t blame you for stepping away from this conversation now, because you have tried to explain your position, but are probably feeling like you are being interrogated, and that is not fun.

Let me start by saying that my family is vaccinated, and that my dh is still extremely high risk for the virus because the vaccines aren’t proving to be great for transplant patients. And then let me say that if you are hesitant about the vaccine, I am ok with that.

I really am.

I want to see as many people get vaccinated as possible. I want us to reach herd immunity. But I don’t like seeing people being bullied because they have made an educated decision to wait. I have been a very selective vaxxer for my own ds, because of a severe reaction he had to a vaccine as a baby. I know what it’s like to be worried about vaccine reactions and long term effects, and if you are fearful, I understand why you would delay. 

I appreciate it that you posted in this thread. It took guts, considering the fact that so many of us are very much pro-vaccine. I hope you will eventually decide to get the shot, but if you don’t, all I can ask is that you will still be careful, and that you will keep doing things like masking and social distancing — both for yourself and for people like my family. 

I also appreciate it that you didn’t say that you weren’t worried about protecting other people, because I am so tired of hearing that anyone who wants a shot can get one, so everyone else is absolved of responsibility. That’s something that really bothers me.

I know a lot of people don’t realize it, so I try to give them some grace, but there are so many people for whom the efficacy of the vaccine is diminished, so even if they are vaccinated, they aren’t well-protected against Covid. And that’s where all of us come in. We can do our part by getting vaccinated, of course, but if the people who decide against getting the shot will still try to help other by taking some basic precautions, that would mean so much! 

Again, thanks for explaining your position so graciously. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

But I don’t like seeing people being bullied because they have made an educated decision to wait.

I really, really hope it doesn't sound like I'm bullying her 😕 . 

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I probably won't, because I'm compulsive about this 😉. I'm just feeling a bit down today overall. 

Sorry to hear you're down. I have had a couple of evenings of feeling down and am hoping it's just post-kidney stone surgery malaise (I am totally recovered at this point, haven't had weird meds in a week or more). I am fine during the day, but it's disconcerting!!! 

[Catwoman]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I really, really hope it doesn't sound like I'm bullying her 😕 . 

I hate to say this because you are always so kind, but it did kind of seem like an interrogation of a hostile witness.

I know you didn’t mean it that way, though!!! I know you’re just looking for information, but it seemed like you kept pressing her for more details even after she seemed to be getting uncomfortable with it. 

But I know you are always nice, and that you didn’t mean it in a negative way; I just hope she knows you well enough to realize that, too! 🙂 

[Catwoman]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I probably won't, because I'm compulsive about this 😉. I'm just feeling a bit down today overall. 

I’m sorry to hear that. 😞 All of this Covid stuff is so stressful, so even small stuff that wouldn’t normally be a big deal, can now really affect our moods.

Give yourself some grace and try to do something fun to cheer yourself up! 

[Roadrunner]

I just hope we all remain flexible in our thinking. 
Everybody but my 14 year old is vaccinated in my house. We plan on engaging in high risk activities like concerts and travel. We hope to be back in the classroom, and we are generally a family of extroverts. 
I have an introverted cousin who lives in a rural area on acres of land and runs her own business. Her kids are all grown up and out of the house. Her life has not been affected at all by this pandemic. Although she will vaccinate, I don’t think it would matter much for her either way given her lifestyle. 
All I hope is people are are hesitant to vaccinate are flexible enough to change their minds if situation worsened and if they plan on engaging in higher risk activities. We just need to make sure we aren’t ideological about our decisions. And most of all we need to keep the hospitalization rates down. I refuse to be locked up again.

 

And I think vaccine availability won’t be a problem at all going forward. I think we will probably easily be able to walk into a local pharmacy and get a shot if we need to soon enough. 
 

[Roadrunner]

4 minutes ago, Plum said:

@RoadrunnerHow often or long were you locked down? What do you mean by lockdown? Not allowed to leave home or reduced capacity or certain businesses closed? We haven't been fully locked down (as in not allowed to leave our home) since last March-May. After that it's been mostly enforcement of the mask mandate and capacity restriction with a temporary voluntary stay at home at the peak of winter. 

We are in CA. My kids haven’t seen a classroom in a year. They haven’t been able to resume their extracurriculars. We are seeing a very major mental health impact here. 

[RootAnn]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Even if I disagree with them, I try to be as respectful as possible (and by the way, for me, that includes not comparing people to toddlers, however frustrating I find them.

I'm sorry my comparison has caused you discouragement and extra down-ness. I know you have young kids (< 10) and that maybe you might have had experience with my example (the never-ending "why" questions). I was trying to help you to see how your questioning could be coming across to those you were engaging with.

I knew you were/are earnest. I figured you didn't realize how it seemed like your posts were coming across, and I was trying to help you see it.

I'm certainly not a popular or prolific poster. And seeking likes is not my purpose for being on WTM. I can be a bit too blunt, and I apologize for using an analogy you consider disrespectful. That was not my intention.

39 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I hate to say this because you are always so kind, but it did kind of seem like an interrogation of a hostile witness.

I know you didn’t mean it that way, though!!! I know you’re just looking for information, but it seemed like you kept pressing her for more details even after she seemed to be getting uncomfortable with it. 

But I know you are always nice, and that you didn’t mean it in a negative way; I just hope she knows you well enough to realize that, too! 🙂 

Catwoman said it much better than I, including that those of us who've read your posts over time know you as kind & wanting to help.

[Syllieann]

25 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's time to start shunning the 'vaccine hesitant.' They're blocking COVID herd immunity.

Nice. Shall we shun people with legitimate health reasons to not vaccinate or just those that choose not to vaccinate for political reasons? That's like patrolling the handicap spot and then judging people's level of disability by how well they walk. Don't be a jerk. 

Plum, I think that article is vile, and a lot of the ideas are probably illegal.  However, I wonder if allowing people to opt-in to some sort of verification might make people more willing to get vaccinated.  I'm thinking of the  workplace and school since that is the same people every day for long periods of time.  Where dh works they have to have long sleeves plus lab coat over it.  Those guys are sweating and panting through their masks and they are being told they still need to wear masks if they are fully vax'd: presumably because we can't legally make people tell whether they're vaxd.  Idk how such a thing could be implemented without some shunning inevitably taking place, but if such a thing could be figured out it might encourage more people who are waiting to go ahead and vax.

[Dmmetler]

43 minutes ago, Plum said:

It's time to start shunning the 'vaccine hesitant.' They're blocking COVID herd immunity.

Nice. Shall we shun people with legitimate health reasons to not vaccinate or just those that choose not to vaccinate for political reasons? That's like patrolling the handicap spot and then judging people's level of disability by how well they walk. Don't be a jerk. 

My kid is going to a college next fall that has added COVID to the list of vaccines required to provide documentation for. That can be documentation of vaccination, an assay showing strong antibodies, or a waiver. That doesn’t seem unreasonable. Because of that, the expectation is that next fall the cafeteria will be open, dorms will be back at double occupancy, and on campus life will not require masks.  I know some other schools are continuing weekly testing, but exempting fully vaccinated students, and that seems reasonable, too. 
 

Once all people have the option of vaccination, I think asking for proof of vaccine OR proof of a waiver (which could be the same card for both, signed by a medical professional, so it would not give private information) would allow things to fully reopen without restrictions, like air travel, full occupancy at restaurants, performing arts, sports, etc. It’s not just a matter of whether restrictions are legally in place,  but in making audiences and customers confident.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Plum said:

It's time to start shunning the 'vaccine hesitant.' They're blocking COVID herd immunity.

Nice. Shall we shun people with legitimate health reasons to not vaccinate or just those that choose not to vaccinate for political reasons? That's like patrolling the handicap spot and then judging people's level of disability by how well they walk. Don't be a jerk. 

I get this, but the truly anti-vax, you can't make me crowd wants to have total freedom to the extent that it's not required to vaccinate to resume any part of life at all, right now, and no one should be allowed to ask them about it.

Well, if I couldn't get a vaccine because I had health reasons, I would really like to be able to ask if other people at an activity are vaccinated.

I have food intolerances that limit a lot of what I can do when food is involved. It's not my fault, nor is it catchy like Covid. I get treated like a second-class citizen and as if I am creating a problem. I don't want unvaccinated people who can't/shouldn't vaccinate to end up in the same position. If we don't have a way to get to some level of herd immunity or know if we're in risky company, it's just a mess. But just like food allergies and intolerances (the fine line means misery without risk of death vs. misery with risk of death), safety requires some level of disclosure and consideration of others.

[Dmmetler]

6 minutes ago, Plum said:

I'm wondering what happens when someone visits the campus. Do they have to get tested or show proof of vaccination?

I’m not sure. At least right now, the statement is that you have to be vaccinated or have a waiver to take classes in person, live on campus, etc. I will be interested in seeing how move in is handled in fall. It might be that those without vaccination info on file will be required to mask on campus or something. 
 

And, if the 15 minute test is available, that might be an option, although maybe not for things like homecoming. Most colleges will have a Walgreens or equivalent nearby. 

 

 

 

 

[whitestavern]

18 minutes ago, Plum said:

I'm wondering what happens when someone visits the campus. Do they have to get tested or show proof of vaccination?

And will you continually have to update your proof to show you've gotten boosters? 

[Bootsie]

30 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

My kid is going to a college next fall that has added COVID to the list of vaccines required to provide documentation for. That can be documentation of vaccination, an assay showing strong antibodies, or a waiver. That doesn’t seem unreasonable. Because of that, the expectation is that next fall the cafeteria will be open, dorms will be back at double occupancy, and on campus life will not require masks.  I know some other schools are continuing weekly testing, but exempting fully vaccinated students, and that seems reasonable, too. 
 

Once all people have the option of vaccination, I think asking for proof of vaccine OR proof of a waiver (which could be the same card for both, signed by a medical professional, so it would not give private information) would allow things to fully reopen without restrictions, like air travel, full occupancy at restaurants, performing arts, sports, etc. It’s not just a matter of whether restrictions are legally in place,  but in making audiences and customers confident.

I am curious as to what they are consider as documentation of vaccination for COVID.  Will the CDC wallet card (which is not signed, stamped, or in any other way marked as official) count?

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, Catwoman said:

I hate to say this because you are always so kind, but it did kind of seem like an interrogation of a hostile witness.

I know you didn’t mean it that way, though!!! I know you’re just looking for information, but it seemed like you kept pressing her for more details even after she seemed to be getting uncomfortable with it. 

But I know you are always nice, and that you didn’t mean it in a negative way; I just hope she knows you well enough to realize that, too! 🙂 

I'm genuinely sorry it came off that way 😕. Thanks for letting me know. 

 

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I'm certainly not a popular or prolific poster. And seeking likes is not my purpose for being on WTM.

2 hours ago, Plum said:

I couldn't give a flying flip about likes.

I see that the "likes" thing was a bit of distraction. What I'm saying is that it's much easier to feel like you're saying Important Stuff with a capital I and a capital S when you're agreeing with people, and not when you're trying to engage with people you don't agree with. Pretty much everyone likes approval and likes being in the majority -- it's a very normal human impulse. I don't judge it in any way and I feel it myself.

But the point is that this kind of thing prevents meaningful engagement, because we aren't really talking to people we're disagreeing with -- we're talking to people we agree with in the guise of talking to people we disagree with. When we dump facts on people or act condescending -- that's us taking no time to try to figure out where someone is coming from me because we're safe feeling like we're in the majority. 

So I guess I'm saying that'd be an easy way out and that I try not to do that, and that sometimes that just makes me feel I'm pleasing no one whatsoever 😕 . 

 

 

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I'm sorry my comparison has caused you discouragement and extra down-ness. I know you have young kids (< 10) and that maybe you might have had experience with my example (the never-ending "why" questions). I was trying to help you to see how your questioning could be coming across to those you were engaging with.

I do have young kids, yes. And I do eventually have to tell them some version of "Because I told you so." But you can probably see how that analogy is not one someone would appreciate: try to think about it from my perspective. 

[Dmmetler]

7 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

And will you continually have to update your proof to show you've gotten boosters? 

If boosters are recommended, I assume so. I had to get a new MMR in grad school when there were outbreaks at other colleges. I know the flu shot is offered on campus at no charge, and I imagine that if there is a Covid booster, it will be as well. 
 

Compared to this year, I think my current Senior would happily get a once a year booster to be able to have a normal experience through college and not lose any more friends to COVID. 

[Dmmetler]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am curious as to what they are consider as documentation of vaccination for COVID.  Will the CDC wallet card (which is not signed, stamped, or in any other way marked as official) count?

So far, yes. I plan to see if the pediatrician’s office will add the COVID dates to my senior’s vax record when we do a physical and other required shots this summer. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Plum said:

The barrage of responses can get overwhelming for those that don’t have that much time to devote to forums. 

What do you suggest? 

[Roadrunner]

Nobody in the right mind would argue about medical exemptions. 

I think shaming anybody into anything doesn’t work but I do like offering carrots. I don’t want to mandate vaccines, but if a concert hall wants to mandate it for its audience, I support it. If an airline wants to mandate, I will support that as well. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Plum said:

This forum is good for deeper conversations. That’s hard to find. I can only speak for myself. I can’t engage in the conversation as fully or as deeply as it seems you would like. Sometimes all I can manage is a drive-by post with some article I saw. I don’t know what else to tell you. It might not be the level of debate you desire but it’s the level of engagement I can manage. Sometimes it forces me to drop out of the conversation because I can’t keep up. 

No, that's fair. And I do have a screen time problem this year... I mean, I'm prone to compulsive behavior in general, but staying home so much has really not helped. 

I'm sorry if all the posts have seemed overwhelming 😕 . These forums can feel like social outlets to me, especially during the pandemic. So I'm sure I post more than I need to. 

[mathnerd]

21 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I saw reports that insurance companies are starting not to pay for Covid related treatment. This could be an incentive as people get stuck with hospital bills. 
 

I was wondering if you knew who pays for Covid treatment right now? Is it the insurance companies (for the insured) or the government. Last I heard, doctor visits are covered for free but hospitalization and treatment isn't. Is that still true?

Edited May 1, 2021 by mathnerd

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

I was wondering if you knew who pays for Covid treatment right now? Is it the insurance companies (for the insured) or the government. Last I heard, doctor visits are covered for free but hospitalization and treatment isn't. Is that still true?

This is what I read

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1265422

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

This is what I read

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1265422

Thank you!

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

11 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, that's fair. And I do have a screen time problem this year... I mean, I'm prone to compulsive behavior in general, but staying home so much has really not helped. 

I'm sorry if all the posts have seemed overwhelming 😕 . These forums can feel like social outlets to me, especially during the pandemic. So I'm sure I post more than I need to. 

I do too.  I told my husband this morning that these forums are my only social outlet. I’m lonely as it is lol.

[Pen]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:38 AM, wathe said:

This strategy literally isn't working here.    We are in the middle of a third wave, driven by younger, healthier people,  that is stressing hospitals to the max (record numbers of transfers, record numbers of ICU admissions, improvised ICU's, parking-lot wards in tents, one Toronto hospital diverting and transferring out yesterday because they are running out of oxygen.  Our highest risk people are vaccinated (long term care, organ transplants, elderly, among others) and they aren't the ones getting sick.   Our hospitals and ICU's are spilling over with 40 and 50 year olds.  It's a combination on variants and just sheer numbers.

Exactly this.

 
Does that area of Canada utilize any early home care methods - and if so what?

 

 

[wathe]

22 minutes ago, Pen said:

 
Does that area of Canada utilize any early home care methods - and if so what?

 

 

Not sure what you mean by early home care methods?

There are some covid-at-home homecare programs, though these are usually used to facilitate earlier hospital discharge, rather than pre-hospital. 

If you mean drug treatments, then no.  This is the current therapeutics protocol.  There are no specific treatments indicated for mild covid at this time (outside of clinical trials).

[Pen]

On 4/29/2021 at 9:46 AM, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, it really isn't serious for 90% of people. That's fair. You can't really argue people out of that, because it's true. The problem is that people don't think of 10% as fairly scary and one really ought to. 

 

I am wondering if you have assumed 10% for yourself or if you have checked on a risk calculator to confirm that? It could be that your risk is that high, in which case that plus big city location increasing also the likelihood  of extended exposure to someone contagious  would put someone in your circumstances at fairly high total risk. 

For most age and risk groups it is lower than 10%.  When I calculated for some family members using the calculator that you provided in this thread only one person (my father in his 80’s with several comorbidities) had a risk for hospitalization at or above 10%.    
 

If weight is good (and on some calculations a BMI of 30 seems to come out with lower risk than BMI of 20 to 25 ) and there aren’t co morbidities such as obesity at a level that seems to increase risk, even someone in her 80s may only have a 5% likelihood of hospitalization.
 

And that type of calculation is probably “on average”. Some people may be fairly sure they have relatively low risk compared to their group from their overall state of health and immune function. For example, some people may know that they have optimum D levels, and tend to have excellent oral and respiratory mucosa and good secretory IgA / IgE  and probably both good number and good functioning  NK cells . 
 

I have a feeling that assumptions about  degree of risk from illness versus risk from experimental vaccine is significant. 
 

And if you are assuming 10% risk of illness bad enough for hospital (which could be true for you, your family, your area—but not true in general from my own reading) you are going to have a different likely sense of what you should do than someone who has read, run calculations, and come up with a 2% or less likely hospitalization risk.  

 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Pen

[Pen]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

Not sure what you mean by early home care methods?

There are some covid-at-home homecare programs, though these are usually used to facilitate earlier hospital discharge, rather than pre-hospital. 

If you mean drug treatments, then no.  This is the current therapeutics protocol.  There are no specific treatments indicated for mild covid at this time (outside of clinical trials).

 
The link is what I meant.   
 

It looks like the official protocol in your area is about the same as here. In a nutshell what seems like:  
 

Do nothing unless severe enough for admission to hospital. 
 

At which point it may be too late for some potential therapies like Regeneron to work. 
 

It seems like a bad approach to my way of thinking. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

And if you are assuming 10% risk of illness bad enough for hospital (which could be true for you, your family, your area—but not true in general from my own reading) you are going to have a different likely sense of what you should do than someone who has read, run calculations, and come up with a 2% or less likely hospitalization risk.

10% is an upper bound. No, I don't think there's a 10% chance of hospitalization. I would assume there's a couple percent worth of probability of hospitalization and a couple percent worth of probability of long COVID. So maybe my personal estimate is more like 5% of something unpleasant happening. For my husband, who's a man and in his 40s, I'd guess it's a bit above that. 

For me, though, a 2% of hospitalization is still really high. As a thought experiment, if instead of giving the vaccine to people in the Pfizer trial, we had infected the 20,000 people in the treatment group with COVID, we'd expect something like 500 people in the group to have become hospitalized. That is a LOT. Nothing like that happened with the vaccine, obviously -- that's not the kind of statistic you could sweep under the rug. 

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

And that type of calculation is probably “on average”. Some people may be fairly sure they have relatively low risk compared to their group from their overall state of health and immune function. For example, some people may know that they have optimum D levels, and tend to have excellent oral and respiratory mucosa and good secretory IgA / IgE  and probably both good number and good functioning  NK cells . 

Well, yes, I'm sure we'd all like to feel like we know what it is that makes this disease tick, but we don't. 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Not_a_Number
Messed up my numbers: forgot that only half got the treatment.

[wathe]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 
The link is what I meant.   
 

It looks like the official protocol in your area is about the same as here. In a nutshell what seems like:  
 

Do nothing unless severe enough for admission to hospital. 
 

At which point it may be too late for some potential therapies like Regeneron to work. 
 

It seems like a bad approach to my way of thinking. 
 

I actually think it's prudent.  The data on these (Regeneron and other covid MAb cocktails) remains preliminary and largely unpublished.  These are also very expensive treatments that just aren't widely available.  In a publicly funded healthcare system, the bar for evidence is pretty high, especially for expensive therapies.  Can't justify spending oodles and oodles of public money on therapies that might work.  I think that restricting use of these agents to trial settings is appropriate at this time.  I also think that our powers-that-be are doing a really good job of keeping up with the evidence as it evolves, and changing the protocols as the evidence warrants.

Edited May 1, 2021 by wathe

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

10% is an upper bound. No, I don't think there's a 10% chance of hospitalization. I would assume there's a couple percent worth of probability of hospitalization and a couple percent worth of probability of long COVID. So maybe my personal estimate is more like 5% of something unpleasant happening. For my husband, who's a man and in his 40s, I'd guess it's a bit above that. 
 

 

ok that all makes sense

 

and I think that as with a couple who are long time friends of mine where one got vaccinated and one did not, each of their choices make total sense to me too

 

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For me, though, a 2% of hospitalization is still really high. As a thought experiment, if instead of giving the vaccine to people in the Pfizer trial, we had infected the 20,000 people in the treatment group with COVID, we'd expect something like 500 people in the group to have become hospitalized. That is a LOT. Nothing like that happened with the vaccine, obviously -- that's not the kind of statistic you could sweep under the rug. 

 

Well, yes, I'm sure we'd all like to feel like we know what it is that makes this disease tick, but we don't. 

 

I agree that we don’t know what makes the disease tick.  And that applies both to the illness and to the vaccine.  We do not know and are all trying to decide the best we can.

 I think your decision is right for you.

 

otoh 

I think someone with a profile like the one I’ll try to photo the shot of calculator below (slightly modified for more privacy of the person) is also making a correct decision for herself - which is not to get it — age 90, hospital risk calculated as 3.6% on the calculator you gave link to.  Independent, does not want to take a chance on getting neurological or other severe consequences that some others in her age group have had .

 

 

I believe strongly in personal free will.  Freedom of choice. 
 

Especially in a situation where so much is unknown and could be a life/death decision ... or potentially severe disability and end of independent living decision. 
 

I think there are many, many factors, and even 2 different 90 year olds (say one in a crowded nursing home and the other still independent) may have much different situations from one another. 
 

I have respect for people’s ability to do their own research and make their own best and right decisions for themselves.  And now in addition I have added that if people choose not to research, analyze etc, that that is also what is right for that person. 

 

Though you and I have gone in different directions for ourselves, we are both afaik  “read, research and analyze” type people - -possibly even to excess . Not everyone is, and that is okay too. I know many of my friends think it’s nuts to spend so much time and energy on “research” and are very likely right. Certainly right for themselves, and I think on reflection that I am heading towards more gardening less research. 

[ktgrok]

A whole lot of people don't realize they fall into the "obese" category. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

A whole lot of people don't realize they fall into the "obese" category. 

Yeah, I feel like people visualize someone who can't get up from a couch when they hear that word. It's really not that hard to be in that category. (I'm not myself, but I'm pretty solidly in the "overweight" category.) 

[KSera]

6 hours ago, Pen said:

At which point it may be too late for some potential therapies like Regeneron to work. 
 

Regeneron is the only early therapy that so far shows promising potential, but it has proven difficult to implement for a number of reasons, because it has to be given by infusion in a medical setting. That introduces all sorts of logistical challenges, such as needing to have a separate area for Covid posiitve patients to be receiving infusions away from non-Covid patients receiving infusions (like Cancer patients), separate staff, etc. This is doable in an area with low covid rates, but as soon as an area has burdened hospitals, it becomes almost impossible. If the anti-viral pill being worked on by Pfizer is effective, that would be a game changer. Right now, the US has three very effective pharmaceutials to prevent people from being hospitalized with Covid, and those are the three vaccines have been approved. There is nothing else even close to them for preventing serious Covid illness.

As an aside, there's also no more long term data for Regeneron than there is for Covid vaccines. In a way there is more for the Covid vaccine, because we know there is no vaccine that has been used before that has had side effects that don't appear until more than several months after vaccination, and the Covid vaccine has been in use much longer than that at this point. All that said, I would accept Regeneron for myself or my husband if we got Covid (but not my kids, since they are lower risk). The biggest downside is that once you've taken Regeneron, your ability to fight off a future Covid infection may be lowered, and your body may not mount a strong immune response to vaccination. So, that would be a bummer. I'd much rather have immunity via vaccination and not take that risk.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

The biggest downside is that once you've taken Regeneron, your ability to fight off a future Covid infection may be lowered, and your body may not mount a strong immune response to vaccination.

Oooh. Why is that? I don't think I've read that. 

[KSera]

21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oooh. Why is that? I don't think I've read that. 

I need to find where I read about it initially. I read about it back when Regeneron was getting a lot of press after its use during the White House outbreak. It is given as a potential effect at the end of the Regeneron patient info sheet, though:

https://www.regeneron.com/downloads/treatment-covid19-eua-fact-sheet-for-patient.pdf

I was going to give my best guess for a mechanism, but my thought on that doesn't necessarily hold up the more I think about it, so I'm going to keep thinking on it and looking for info.

On the bright side, though, I did come across this on trials of an injected version of Regeneron, which would vastly improve the logisitcal issues, allowing it to be administered by quick injection. On the other hand, it's still costing $1000 per injection, and there is not nearly enough of it to be given to everyone with Covid. Again though, this hasn't been tested even as long as the vaccine has, so for people hesitating for reasons of concerns about testing, the vaccines have better data (and have the benefit of also contributing to ending this pandemic).

https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/monoclonal-antibodies-coronavirus-regeneron-phase3-data/

 

ETA: Also finding some really promising data about the Regeneron injection preventing infection in household contacts. If only it was easier and cheaper to produce, that would be so good. It doesn't have FDA approval for that use yet.https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/phase-3-prevention-trial-showed-81-reduced-risk-symptomatic-sars

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I need to find where I read about it initially. I read about it back when Regeneron was getting a lot of press after it's use during the White House outbreak. It is given as a potential effect at the end of the Regeneron patient info sheet, though:

https://www.regeneron.com/downloads/treatment-covid19-eua-fact-sheet-for-patient.pdf

I was going to give my best guess for a mechanism, but my thought on that doesn't necessarily hold up the more I think about it, so I'm going to keep thinking on it and looking for info.

On the bright side, though, I did come across this on trials of an injected version of Regeneron, which would vastly improve the logisitcal issues, allowing it to be administered by quick injection. On the other hand, it's still costing $1000 per injection, and there is not nearly enough of it to be given to everyone with Covid. Again though, this hasn't been tested even as long as the vaccine has, so for people hesitating for reasons of concerns about testing, the vaccines have better data (and have the benefit of also contributing to ending this pandemic).

https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/monoclonal-antibodies-coronavirus-regeneron-phase3-data/

Thank you! That IS concerning. Good to know about it. 

By the way, is your username a play on "Que sera?" 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[math teacher]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:11 PM, Pawz4me said:

And those who can be vaccinated but likely won't have a robust immune response. The stats on vaccine response in people with certain types of cancer look particularly bad.

 

Dh has CLL and I noticed that he didn't have much response to the vaccine. I was sick with both doses. He ran a little fever with the first dose, none at all with the second dose.

[Catwoman]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Thank you! That IS concerning. Good to know about it. 

By the way, is your username a play on "Que sera?" 

That’s how I’ve been reading it, too!

And then I keep hearing Doris Day in my head, singing “Que Sera Sera.” 

I’m getting REALLY sick of that song! 😉 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Catwoman said:

That’s how I’ve been reading it, too!

And then I keep hearing Doris Day in my head, singing “Que Sera Sera.” 

I’m getting REALLY sick of that song! 😉 

Aww, and I just listened to it, because the username reminded me! 😄 

[Corraleno]

5 minutes ago, math teacher said:

Dh has CLL and I noticed that he didn't have much response to the vaccine. I was sick with both doses. He ran a little fever with the first dose, none at all with the second dose.

I really wouldn't worry that lack of side effects means lack of immunity. People's bodies just react differently to different things. And often with vaccines when people react strongly it's not even to the viral component, it's another ingredient, like the lipid capsule or PEG in the mRNA vaccines or various adjuvants in other vaccines. FWIW, my kids and I all had no reaction to the Pfizer vaccine beyond a slightly sore arm, and all of us have robust  immune systems and rarely get sick. So I really wouldn't take your DH's lack of side effects as any indication of the level of immunity.

[Reefgazer]

I'm enthusiastically fully vaccinated.  I will not get a booster if the mask mandates and mandatory shutdowns continue, however.  I want something in return besides risk for my willingness to stick out my arm, and death/hospitalization has been mitigated with these first 2 doses.  Many people I talk to have expressed the same, although many others will happily go for the 3rd jab regardless.  So hesitancy may be a matter of "why bother", rather than an unwillingness to deal with side effects.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

So hesitancy may be a matter of "why bother", rather than an unwillingness to deal with side effects.

Honestly, I'm vaccinating for purely selfish reasons. I have no desire to get sick and I don't think any of us on this forum are in a category where we can be pleasantly relaxed about the possibility of a negative outcome. 

So, I'm bothering because it takes a HUGE load off my mind. That being said... I'm going to be bummed if boosters are needed in the fall. It's an unpleasant vaccine. But for me, it's worth it. 

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I really wouldn't worry that lack of side effects means lack of immunity. People's bodies just react differently to different things. And often with vaccines when people react strongly it's not even to the viral component, it's another ingredient, like the lipid capsule or PEG in the mRNA vaccines or various adjuvants in other vaccines. FWIW, my kids and I all had no reaction to the Pfizer vaccine beyond a slightly sore arm, and all of us have robust  immune systems and rarely get sick. So I really wouldn't take your DH's lack of side effects as any indication of the level of immunity.

I agree. It seems to be universally accepted that the lack of side effects doesn’t mean that the vaccine didn’t work. 

@math teacher — Have you looked to see if any studies have been done to show the effectiveness of the vaccines on people with your dh’s condition? Have you spoken with his doctors about it? 

My impression is that just about everyone will receive some benefit from the vaccine, but it can be difficult to determine exactly how effective the vaccine will be for any particular individual, so if you are concerned that your dh may not be well-protected, you might be stuck doing what my family is doing — we are still masking and distancing and not going into stores. We are hopeful that enough people will get vaccinated, so the chances of catching Covid will be greatly diminished, and we are especially hoping that the new Pfizer pill will be approved soon, because that will make us feel so much safer.

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

That’s how I’ve been reading it, too!

And then I keep hearing Doris Day in my head, singing “Que Sera Sera.” 

I’m getting REALLY sick of that song! 😉 

Oops! Sorry, I didn't anticipate that undesirably side effect 😂.

8 minutes ago, Reefgazer said:

I'm enthusiastically fully vaccinated.  I will not get a booster if the mask mandates and mandatory shutdowns continue, however.  I want something in return besides risk for my willingness to stick out my arm, and death/hospitalization has been mitigated with these first 2 doses.  Many people I talk to have expressed the same, although many others will happily go for the 3rd jab regardless.  So hesitancy may be a matter of "why bother", rather than an unwillingness to deal with side effects.

We will get there, but the fastest way to get there really is for everyone who is able to be vaccinated to do so. The reason not many measures have been able to be lifted yet, is because not enough people have been vaccinated. It's the reluctance to vaccinate that is holding everyone else back from normality. I think the first benefit the vaccinated will see, besides not being hospitalized or dying, will be being able to attend vaccine or exempt only venues that don't require mitigation measures. Like, my dd will be able to return to her college campus and live in a dorm and eat in the dining hall and have in person classes and meet with others to study in the library and all those other good college student things, because everyone will need to be vaccinated to be on campus, thus they will be able to enjoy the benefits of being in a population with local herd immunity.

[Corraleno]

6 hours ago, ktgrok said:

A whole lot of people don't realize they fall into the "obese" category. 

And virtually no one has any idea what their Vit D levels are. It's interesting that the three characteristics that seem to significantly increase the risk of severe disease with covid — being old, obese, or African-American — are all strongly correlated with low levels of Vit D. Obviously the studies on Vit D and covid are only correlational at this point, but so far there is a pretty strong correlation between Vit D insufficiency and severe outcomes. It may turn out that the reason some young, seemingly "perfectly healthy" people end up dying or being hospitalized is that those were the ones with extremely low D levels.

DS and I both have a genetic mutation that makes us not make or process Vit D properly. Without supplementation our levels were in the 10-12 range — with anything less than 30 considered insufficient and below 20 is a serious deficiency. And we had those levels while living in New Mexico and spending huge amounts of time in the sun year round! Without supplementation (and in particular supplementation with D3 + K2), we would still be at those levels — despite seeming "perfectly healthy" and assuming we had zero risk factors for severe covid. 

I wonder how many people who assume their covid risk is very low because they're "young and healthy," or whatever, may actually have unknown issues that make them much higher risk than they realize.

[Terabith]

28 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And virtually no one has any idea what their Vit D levels are. It's interesting that the three characteristics that seem to significantly increase the risk of severe disease with covid — being old, obese, or African-American — are all strongly correlated with low levels of Vit D. Obviously the studies on Vit D and covid are only correlational at this point, but so far there is a pretty strong correlation between Vit D insufficiency and severe outcomes. It may turn out that the reason some young, seemingly "perfectly healthy" people end up dying or being hospitalized is that those were the ones with extremely low D levels.

DS and I both have a genetic mutation that makes us not make or process Vit D properly. Without supplementation our levels were in the 10-12 range — with anything less than 30 considered insufficient and below 20 is a serious deficiency. And we had those levels while living in New Mexico and spending huge amounts of time in the sun year round! Without supplementation (and in particular supplementation with D3 + K2), we would still be at those levels — despite seeming "perfectly healthy" and assuming we had zero risk factors for severe covid. 

I wonder how many people who assume their covid risk is very low because they're "young and healthy," or whatever, may actually have unknown issues that make them much higher risk than they realize.

I was finally able to convince the doctor to check my vitamin D status for the first time in a few years.  I'm up to 66!  Whoo hooo!  

I was at 11 four years ago.  My oldest kid's was 5.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, happysmileylady said:

Please note, as should be obvious....I am very well aware that it is not the case for everyone that the disease is very mild.  But it's a fact that for many people....it is.  If someone had a case where it was very mild, and then they read about people taking one or two or 3 days off work, with fevers and chills and such....and the disease itself didn't produce that for them..............and the vaccine seems to produce stronger reactions like that in those that had it previously.....

Hmmmm. That's an interesting question. I suppose it might be rational in that situation not to get vaccinated this year if you've been sick recently and you think you're immune. 

I think assuming that your first and second infection will be similar sounds like a bad idea, though. I know that this wasn't the case for @Mrs Tiggywinkle, and I'd be curious how much correlation there is in general between mildness of symptoms the first and second time. I'd guess that the constant mutations might make the correlation modest. 

I suppose you might also get vaccinated because you're worried about getting someone close to you sick.