Vaccine hesitancy and side effects

[Loowit]

I am vaccine hesitant.  Growing up vaccines were just part of life, something someone did.  My parents talked about the vaccine preventable diseases that they had as kids and the "miracle" of vaccines.  But then I had my own kids and "information" about vaccines possibly causing autism and other things was a new thing to think about.  Obviously, this information is now much more researched and debunked, but at the time it did make me hesitate.  Then I had a child with severe allergies who could not get the flu shot and had severe reactions to the pertussis shots.  The reaction from the medical community was less than stellar.  DS first serious reaction to a vaccine was written off as coincidence, and it took a second more severe and scary reaction to get them to listen to me.

I have been fortunate that my DS has grown up with (mostly) herd immunity to pertussis.  There have been a few breakout cases in my state, but overall he is "safe" because people choose to vaccinate when he can't.  He has sadly been hospitalized with the flu when he couldn't be vaccinated, but now he has outgrown his allergies he can get the flu shot and does every year.

I think part of the problem with the covid shot is how politicized it has gotten.  The whole pandemic is a big scary mess.  I have had both my shots now, and not had a good time, but so relieved at the same time.  I am glad I will have less chance of getting the real thing now and hopefully if I do it won't be as bad.

I would love to see everyone get the vaccine that can, because it would help protect my DS who may or may not be able to get it.  We will find out after talking to his allergist in June.  But I can't in good conscience as others to take a shot that has been seen to cause some fairly significant side effects and is not fully tested and approved.  I myself am having tinnitus from it that has gotten worse since my second shot.  While it may well be that I would have gotten the same thing from covid, to me it does make a difference that I got to make the decision to have the vaccine injected of my own free will.

I am very sad to see the low rates of vaccine acceptance in my area.  I think we are almost at the point where everyone who want the vaccine that is 16+ years old has it or has made their appointment, and that is not near enough for herd immunity.  They are also fighting the lockdown, numbers are going up, ICUs are getting full, and people still have their eyes closed to the reality.

Sorry for the rambling post, I am feeling frustrated and am not sure what my point is.  I guess I want people to be vaccinated, but I understand why some don't or want to wait for more complete picture of any potential long term effects.

[Syllieann]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

No, I'm not. That is an incorrect model of how I've evaluated this situation. 

Whenever anyone says we don't know x, y, or z your response has been to ask why should we think it would affect it. That implies we should assume it does not affect it unless proven otherwise.  I'm happy to entertain a different label for that mindset, but the mindset is still what it is.

[KSera]

9 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’m also very concerned about vaccine hesitancy and ever reaching herd immunity. Up until recently, my state was one of the best in the country on almost any covid measure, now things have changed, and one of the variants is spreading rapidly. And despite vaccines now open to everyone, half of all appointments at the large, local county vaccine site are going unfilled. My husband used to love doing extra shifts there because it was such a rewarding experience. Now it depresses him because his hospital (the largest in the state ) is filling up with covid patients and not nearly enough people are getting vaccinated.

Yeah, I get worried that there will be too many people in "wait and see mode" to keep us from having another crisis level surge somewhere, and suddenly everyone will want to be vaccinated, and it will be too late at that point for vaccination to turn a surge like that around. It seems many people use current low rates where they live as a reason vaccination doesn't feel worth it, but this week that reasoning makes me think of India, who was doing so well also, until they weren't. Now it's too late to prevent what has happened. In addition to that, is the very real concern that because lack of herd immunity will allow the virus to continue to transmit, we're going to increase the risk of having a variant emerge that escapes the vaccine entirely (and is possibly more dangerous), and we're going to be right back at the beginning of this thing. I desperately want us to get this behind us, so that thought is so frustrating/discouraging.

[Loowit]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yes, I agree, but that's a hormonal change, right? Not something related to breakthrough bleeding, which is what people observed. 

Yes, it is a hormone thing, but do they know what is causing breakthrough bleeding?  I would guess it would have something to do with hormone changes, but may or may not effect ovulation or whatnot.  I haven't really looked into it much since we aren't trying to have any more children.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Syllieann said:

Whenever anyone says we don't know x, y, or z your response has been to ask why should we think it would affect it. That implies we should assume it does not affect it unless proven otherwise.  I'm happy to entertain a different label for that mindset, but the mindset is still what it is.

Don't we do that for most things, though? We tend to assume that most things we do don't affect fertility, for example. I take Advil for my periods and I assume that doesn't affect fertility. I eat a variety of foods and assume they don't affect fertility. I'm going to be occasionally wrong, of course, but I guess I think our default assumption is that things don't affect other things unless we have a mechanism in mind. 

[Frances]

58 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

I think by me we are down to 11 new infections per 100k per day and it seems reasonable that it will continue to drop. it

Have any of the variants taken hold there yet? Things looked pretty good here for a long time, despite being one of the first places in the country with a covid case. But things have changed very quickly. My husband was off work today, but was pretty upset by email updates he was receiving from his hospital.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Loowit said:

Yes, it is a hormone thing, but do they know what is causing breakthrough bleeding?  I would guess it would have something to do with hormone changes, but may or may not effect ovulation or whatnot.  I haven't really looked into it much since we aren't trying to have any more children.

I'm not sure they do know. I suppose my assumption is that it's inflammation and not hormone changes, given what I know about how the vaccine works, but I'd be curious if there's any evidence against that. 

[Syllieann]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Don't we do that for most things, though? We tend to assume that most things we do don't affect fertility, for example. I take Advil for my periods and I assume that doesn't affect fertility. I eat a variety of foods and assume they don't affect fertility. I'm going to be occasionally wrong, of course, but I guess I think our default assumption is that things don't affect other things unless we have a mechanism in mind. 

I don't do that for most things.  Everything you mention has been around for years and years.  Typically OB s will err on the side of caution when talking about newer meds and recommend they be avoided unless there's substantial medical need.  When you talk to the older generation you also need to remember thalidomide will play a bigger role in their emotional response to these things.

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Loowit said:

I guess I want people to be vaccinated, but I understand why some don't or want to wait for more complete picture of any potential long term effects.

I also understand that. I think in the best of all possible worlds, I'd want to wait and see. If I lived in New Zealand, I'd do that. 

[Syllieann]

5 minutes ago, Frances said:

Have any of the variants taken hold there yet? Things looked pretty good here for a long time, despite being one of the first places in the country with a covid case. But things have changed very quickly. My husband was off work today, but was pretty upset by email updates he was receiving from his hospital.

I haven't seen any news of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't.  If they did, it would adjust the risk/benefit ratio.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Syllieann said:

I don't do that for most things.  Everything you mention has been around for years and years.  Typically OB s will err on the side of caution when talking about newer meds and recommend they be avoided unless there's substantial medical need.  When you talk to the older generation you also need to remember thalidomide will play a bigger role in their emotional response to these things.

I was very, very cautious in pregnancy, actually. I don't know if I'd get the vaccine in pregnancy -- not in the first trimester, probably. 

I think the fact that something has been around for years and years doesn't necessarily make it safe, for what it's worth. There's lots of causal stuff we haven't actually disentangled. Which is why I said I'm almost certainly going to be wrong about some things. 

For me, the decision-making involved thinking about my chances of COVID vs. my chances of issues with the vaccine. It's not that I don't understand the desire for more data. I do. But I personally feel like my chance of getting COVID if I live my life normally is more like 20%, and I feel like I don't have long-term data about COVID, either. And I have a much better idea of how COVID could hurt me long-term than I do with the vaccine. 

[KSera]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I disagree with you there. I think it's possible to have productive conversations about this stuff. And I don't even start out assuming people are wrong -- I'm genuinely interested in the calculations people are doing. 

I agree it's possible to have productive conversations, and I find those very interesting as well, but some people don't and I think trying to force someone into a productive conversation who doesn't want to have one is probably counter-productive.

4 minutes ago, Loowit said:

Yes, it is a hormone thing, but do they know what is causing breakthrough bleeding?  I would guess it would have something to do with hormone changes, but may or may not effect ovulation or whatnot.  I haven't really looked into it much since we aren't trying to have any more children.

I saw something that suggested a mechanism which seemed plausible. It had to do with the endometrium actually being part of the immune system, as it has to deal with a wound monthly, in addition to at birth, so it makes sense from that perspective that the endometrium could be affected during the vaccine immune response, and cause spotting or an odd period. I can't think of a mechanism that would make it continue to have an effect after the immune response to the vaccine died down, though. I expect it won't take long to see if people who have period-related side effects have their cycles go right back to normal after. I would expect they likely will, since nothing showed up as affecting fertility in any of the trials, but it will be good to have that info. If I were still planning to have more kids, I would want to get the vaccine done and recovered from, so that I wouldn't risk getting Covid while pregnant. The latest data on that is very concerning, with greatly elevated mortality and morbidity for the mother, and worse outcomes for the baby.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

I agree it's possible to have productive conversations, and I find those very interesting as well, but some people don't and I think trying to force someone into a productive conversation who doesn't want to have one is probably counter-productive.

I don't think I'm able to force anyone into anything, so if it seemed like I was trying to, my apologies -- not at all my intention. I just wish people would engage, because I like talking to people, and I do take them seriously. 

[SpecialClassical]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not sure they do know. I suppose my assumption is that it's inflammation and not hormone changes, given what I know about how the vaccine works, but I'd be curious if there's any evidence against that. 

Actually I was reading about the bleeding/heavy periods and one theory from Dr Julie Levitt, OB/GYN was that it causes a rise in hormone levels and that prompts the bleeding.   Another theory explained that the uterus is part of the immune system and that is why it is affected.  Another expert said she thought these women were just having heavier periods than usual, but that doesn’t explain women who were long post-menopausal who suddenly experienced bleeding after their vaccines. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, SpecialClassical said:

Actually I was reading about the bleeding/heavy periods and one theory from Dr Julie Levitt, OB/GYN was that it causes a rise in hormone levels and that prompts the bleeding.   Another theory explained that the uterus is part of the immune system and that is why it is affected.  Another expert said she thought these women were just having heavier periods than usual, but that doesn’t explain women who were long post-menopausal who suddenly experienced bleeding after their vaccines. 

Interesting! I'm going to surprised if this is a long-term effect, but I suppose that's possible. I'll have to keep an eye on that. 

In the best of all possible worlds, I'd wait and see before getting the vaccine. But I'm much more worried about COVID than about the vaccine, which is why I got it. 

I see there are lots of people who "liked" a vaccine-hesitant post, but I can see that people aren't interested in discussing their reasoning about it. Personally, I think it's useful to run's through one's reasoning to check it and I do it... but I know not everyone does. However, if anyone does, I'd be interested in talking about it. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Loowit]

I think one reason vaccine hesitant people, including me, are not wanting to engage in discussions about it is because we are tired of being viewed as ignorant.  The idea that if we just heard enough arguments, we would see the light gets tiring.  I usually avoid all vaccine discussions because I know my views are biased based on personal experience.  I get tired of hearing about how severe reactions to vaccines are so rare.  To me it sounds like "Eh, who cares if a few people die/are permanently maimed/etc. because this is for the greater good and it is soooo rare."  I get that they are not trying to be cold or heartless, but it still sounds that way because to me it is my real life child that suffered a severe vaccine reaction.  It is a personal, gut reaction, and probably not something I can ever view with cold, hard facts.

I actually had a doctor at one point corner me in an exam room and refuse to let me leave until I agreed to let my DS get vaccinated for a shot he was due to have.  It was not his primary care doctor, who agreed to put it off until he was a couple years older.  At the time I was suffering from post-partum depression from the birth of my third child and not able to stand up for myself or my child.  Fortunately, he suffered no long term problems from it, but it sure made me distrust the medical community.

I am happy to explain why I don't vaccinate for certain things, or why I am hesitant, but I really don't want to debate it because it is too personal and emotional for me.  I don't need people to try to change my mind, and don't need to be enlighten, and I do not want to argue my points which I suppose is a bit wimpy of me, but I just don't have the mental energy right now.

[Frances]

52 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

I haven't seen any news of it, but that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't.  If they did, it would adjust the risk/benefit ratio.

Unfortunately that adjustment, if it happens, will likely come too late for many, given the time it takes for immunity after the vaccines. Meanwhile, new variants will emerge and spread.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Loowit said:

I get that they are not trying to be cold or heartless, but it still sounds that way because to me it is my real life child that suffered a severe vaccine reaction. 

I'm sorry that happened 😞 . What happened? 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Loowit said:

The idea that if we just heard enough arguments, we would see the light gets tiring. 

For what it's worth, I don't feel that way at all. I don't think most people can be argued into "seeing the light." I think arguing with people is counterproductive. 

[mjbucks1]

39 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But I personally feel like my chance of getting COVID if I live my life normally is more like 20%

So, I am vaccine hesitant.  I have worked in healthcare as a physical therapist for 25 years.  I did cancer research in undergrad.  My point is that I am not an anti-vaxer and I am very much a science/data person.  I have tinnitus and a history of vestibular issues/dizziness, as well as myoclonus in my left ear.  I was actually scheduled to get the vaccine, but then thought I would look at VAERS.  I saw reports of tinnitus, hearing loss, and dizziness.  I did more searching and found an article addressing this issue.  I then joined a FB group of people who are experiencing tinnitus/hearing loss/dizziness shortly after being vaccinated.  For some, the side effects have gone away.  For others, it has not and has been debilitating.  

Now, I am very aware that just because these events happened after the vaccine does not mean they were caused by the vaccine.  But, they could have been.  And now many of the people in the FB group are seeing their physicians and ENTs, and the ENTs especially are saying that they have seen a significant uptick in these complaints after the vaccine.  The doctors are saying that it is from the inflammation caused as part of the body's response to the vaccination.  We KNOW that inflammation can cause damage in our body and this vaccine seems to kick our immune system into overdrive.  I also know these reactions are RARE.

If I did not already have the above issues, or if I was high risk, I would most likely go ahead and get the vaccine.  But I really do not want to do anything to make my tinnitus (especially the myoclonus) worse.  And I feel that I am at an increased risk for a negative side effect because of the issues I already have. 

I highlighted your above statement because I think that may be the difference:  I am NOT living my life normally, and many like me are not.  We are not having people over (even family), I only go to the grocery store when necessary, and I always wear a mask (often doubled) and social distance when I do go anywhere (which is not often!). And I am currently NOT working because of COVID.   So I do think my chance of getting COVID is very low, especially since our county positivity rate is very low.  I take COVID seriously.  I don't want to get it either because it can also cause the above issues. 

I completely understand that there are people out there who do not want to get vaccinated, and also don't wear masks, etc.  That very much frustrates me.  But I hate to see everyone lumped into one group or another, such as you either get the vaccine or you are part of the problem.

I have been in healthcare long enough to see many drugs, medical devices, etc recalled that were once thought safe.  We also must remember that the medical community is ok with a certain number of healthy people dying (or suffering a debilitating side effects) from RARE events related to the vaccine for the greater good.  And I get that: life is full of risks.  As a professor of mine once said, statistics are just numbers until it happens to be you.  So we all must do a risk assessment.  For me right now, I am going to hold off a bit and continue to be very cautious like I have been for over a year now.  I will continue to watch the VAERS site and look for research on side effects. 

  

 

 

[Katy]

Background info: I used to work in nursing on an OBGYN floor and I experienced multiple miscarriages and infertility myself for several years.

Any kind of change in your body can affect your hormones and delay ovulation.  If you catch a cold but you've had a similar strain before so your body fights it off without any symptoms?  If you're in the first half of your cycle your ovulation will likely be delayed and you'll have a late period.  The same circumstance can lead to that normal and functional ovarian cyst to not release the egg on time and when it finally breaks (late) that can cause spotting.

The same thing can happen with any vaccine, illness, stress, toothache, eating more, eating less, having more caffeine, altering the amount or type or quantity of fat you eat, eating more histamine, being allergic to tree pollen and living in the South in the Spring, even changing the amount of sugar or calories you eat. 

This isn't news to anyone with training in these areas.  And a period a little delayed does NOT mean your fertility is affected in any way, it just changes WHICH days you are fertile.

If you want more objective information, Mama Doctor Jones (on YouTube and Instagram) has both great information herself and has linked to other medical resources (people with actual degrees) about why this vaccine doesn't affect fertility and why it's a really great idea to get vaccinated if you're pregnant or breastfeeding.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Katy

[Loowit]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sorry that happened 😞 . What happened? 

His first DTaP he had no reaction.  His second he developed a low grade fever, rash, cried (screamed) for hours, and had his whole leg swell up.  I was told it wasn't a big deal.  Fever was a coincidence and swelling is normal and he was a colicky baby so crying happened.  The third shot when he was 6 months old.  His whole leg swelled again, red and hot.  He screamed for several days, barely sleeping, He developed a high fever and hives.  I got it put into his chart that he was allergic to the pertussis part of the vaccine, as per the doctor we saw for his reaction.  In the future he received the DT or T shots and did fine.  Then a couple of years ago he was getting boosters.  He was due for tetanus and I let the nurse know that he was allergic to pertussis vaccine.  She was supposed to just give him the tetanus booster, but gave him the TDaP.  That night he had difficulty breathing, hives, high fever, whole body turned red and hot.  It was super scary.  I checked his online chart and that is when I found out he had been given the wrong shot.  Now, I know that I have to double and triple check what vaccine they are injecting.

[mathnerd]

Many people in my circle of acquaintances have elected to skip the second shot of their vaccine because they do not want to deal with multiple days of severe side effects. There have been anecdotal reports circulating in my area of severe issues from both Pfizer and Moderna second shots that they decided that they did not want to miss work/be unable to drive their kids to activities etc and skipped their second shot.

My neighbor who got the first dose of Moderna said that his parents who live with him (both in their early 70's) were bedridden for 2 weeks with flu like symptoms, body pain and chills that he decided that the antibodies he got from his first shot were enough to protect him as he is otherwise healthy and young. My other neighbor, a lady in her mid 80s also decided to skip her second shot (also Moderna) because she was worried after seeing many elderly people at her church suffering from bad side effects of the second dose.

There are reports of several millions skipping their second shots in California. We will have to wait until official data comes out to verify this.

Edited May 2, 2021 by mathnerd

[Roadrunner]

I think our best bet is people who are high risk will keep getting vaccinated so the hospitalization and mortality rates fall. That’s the key. If the rest of the population wants to get immunity through the infection, we can’t do anything about it. I have long given up on herd immunity. At this point I just hope for steady numbers. 
 

I saw reports that insurance companies are starting not to pay for Covid related treatment. This could be an incentive as people get stuck with hospital bills. 

I think in time our best hope is to have Covid under control like we do with a flu. Still 50k it so people will die every year, but infection numbers will not go out of control. Frankly there is no point of talking to people who have already made up their minds. Personal experiences might change some minds though. 
 

My friend’s very healthy and young cousin is on oxygen in a hospital. She will make it, but her story has changed so many minds among my crunchy friends. 

[Ellie]

23 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

My friend’s very healthy and young cousin is on oxygen in a hospital. She will make it, but her story has changed so many minds among my crunchy friends. 

The death of my friend's otherwise healthy mother after her second shot has changed many minds, too. And my other friend's otherwise healthy mother whose liver failed after the second shot; she also died.

[klmama]

32 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

My friend’s very healthy and young cousin is on oxygen in a hospital. She will make it, but her story has changed so many minds among my crunchy friends. 

Several people here have mentioned people with crunchy perspectives against vaccination, but I have no idea what those might be; all the crunchy people I know are very pro-vaccine.  Could you please explain?  

[Roadrunner]

Just now, klmama said:

Several people here have mentioned people with crunchy perspectives against vaccination, but I have no idea what those might be; all the crunchy people I know are very pro-vaccine.  Could you please explain?  

Lots of my friends from childhood will only eat organic and many among them are not vaccinating because they don’t want anything that isn’t natural in their body. 

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, klmama said:

Several people here have mentioned people with crunchy perspectives against vaccination, but I have no idea what those might be; all the crunchy people I know are very pro-vaccine.  Could you please explain?  

It's the crowd that's heavy into 'all-natural' alternative medicine that can sometimes lead to a more extreme anti-mainstream Western medicine stance. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Matryoshka

[Roadrunner]

18 minutes ago, Ellie said:

The death of my friend's otherwise healthy mother after her second shot has changed many minds, too. And my other friend's otherwise healthy mother whose liver failed after the second shot; she also died.

Which vaccine may I ask? 

[Roadrunner]

I see there are 3,848 deaths reported after  230 million doses. No data that I see how many of those deaths are actually linked to the vaccine as opposed to just occurring naturally. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

[Pen]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I love my kids, but after about 12 "but, why?"s, I resort to, "Because God made it that way" which satisfies them. I'm thinking the posters you are addressing don't love you nearly as much as I love my kids, if you get my drift. Truth, science, love of learning, etc don't matter when it seems (not that it is, just that it seems) antagonistic.

I think the point for many people is they would like more data over a longer period. I know you are a fan of data. They don't think there is enough in their own risk/reward equations. Their equations are not mine & not yours. They might not be set up correctly. But doing Socratic questioning to see where their risk/reward equation is different  (and, in your mind, wrong) is not going to get them to change their equation, just encourage them to stop sharing their work with the rest of us.

 

very true!
 

I think sometimes questions are asked because it seems like people need to figure things out for themselves rather than be told, but asking does not always accomplish that . And I think I have made the same mistake in the opposite direction 

 

Wtm has in my opinion taken on a significant “cancel culture” feeling, not a sense of well trained minds engaging in exploring a significant important decision for our time  . 

 

I think it is true that a lot of people want more data over a longer period. 
 

asking about likelihood of getting CV19 over the next year is very different than asking about likelihood of getting severe case of CV19 over next year .  And different still than asking about likelihood of dying from CV19. 
 

If someone has a 2-10%  chance of getting CV19 over course of a year, but only a 0.01% - 0.04% chance of dying from it if they do get it, that looks different than just asking about the chance of getting it. 

I think there are also elements that are different than just statistics and data that go into decisions.

For example, “cases per 100k”population may have a very different feeling evaluated from inside Manhattan or Mumbai as compared with being in rural Wyoming.  in one situation 100k people might be present in nearby mere blocks, in another situation 100k people might be scattered over many square miles.  I am not sure, but it is possible that If I lived in a big apartment block building in NYC with common elevators and hallways to other occupants and perhaps dependent upon public transit, I might  be having greater fears and thinking through risks differently than given my actual present circumstances.  I think I used to encounter more people in a typical 20 minutes start to my morning commute in NYC than I do now in many *years.*  I have had at least some aspects of the differences between city, suburb, rural, and yet that may be hard for people who haven’t experienced the differences to grasp. Similarly, experiences I have not had may be hard for me to grasp. 
 

Even within what seems like hard “data” what one understands from the word “cases” will also affect decisions. For example if one has awareness of PCR cycle manipulation, and PCR test limits generally, that will change ones credulity threshold 

as well, how one evaluates potential effects of illness versus potential effects of vaccine on age group sub populations may change how one is likely to reach conclusions 

So probably is whether one tends to be immunology system oriented or statistics oriented likely to affect decision making. 
 

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Don't we do that for most things, though? We tend to assume that most things we do don't affect fertility, for example. I take Advil for my periods and I assume that doesn't affect fertility. I eat a variety of foods and assume they don't affect fertility. I'm going to be occasionally wrong, of course, but I guess I think our default assumption is that things don't affect other things unless we have a mechanism in mind. 

Although given the recent stats on male fertility maybe we should be thinking about it a bit more 😞 

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

The death of my friend's otherwise healthy mother after her second shot has changed many minds, too. And my other friend's otherwise healthy mother whose liver failed after the second shot; she also died.

I have seen your post about this before.  If you have any more details I’d love to know.  My folks are supposed to get vaccinated next month.

[Corraleno]

49 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I have seen your post about this before.  If you have any more details I’d love to know.  My folks are supposed to get vaccinated next month.

I'm not Ellie, but since she referred to someone who died of liver failure, I thought I'd mention a recent case in Nevada where a woman died of liver failure after the vaccine, which was widely reported in certain media circles as  "perfectly healthy woman killed by vaccine!" Dr Mike Hansen did a video on that case in which he went through the detailed timeline and development of symptoms, which he said exactly matched the symptoms and timeline you see when someone overdoses on acetaminophen (tylenol).

Too many people think tylenol is totally benign and harmless because it's such a mild painkiller, but acetaminophen poisoning is the #1 cause of calls to the poison helpline and it causes half of all acute liver failure cases in the US. It doesn't actually take that much cause real damage, and it's significantly more dangerous when combined with alcohol.

So if someone was having really bad side effects from the vaccine, with pain and a high fever, and they took multiple doses of maximum strength tylenol, plus maybe they were sleepy or spacey and took additional doses too soon, and/or they took multiple meds that contained tylenol (like a cold medicine with tylenol plus several tablets), and they washed it down with a few glasses of wine, that could certainly cause severe liver damage. 

Personally I am much more wary of tylenol than I am of opioids. Any time I need serious painkillers, I will ask for half as many of the 10 mg pills, instead of 5 mg pills, because the dose of tylenol is the same in both. Then I can cut them in half to reduce the amount of acetaminophen, but I really wish they would just leave it out because it's so toxic for your liver. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Corraleno

[Not_a_Number]

We’ve had more than half a million die from COVID so far. I absolutely believe that in specific cases, the vaccine makes less sense than waiting, but I don’t think that’s the case for most people — if they were true on average, we’d had an incredible spike of vaccine-related hospitalizations and deaths.

So when someone says they’ve decided to hold off on the vaccine, I tend to be curious about what makes them think they belong to a group of statistical outliers. It’s interesting to think about. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I see there are 3,848 deaths reported after  230 million doses. No data that I see how many of those deaths are actually linked to the vaccine as opposed to just occurring naturally. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

There were actually 6 deaths in the trial! 4 deaths after the placebo, 2 after the vaccine...

[Not_a_Number]

5 hours ago, Loowit said:

His first DTaP he had no reaction.  His second he developed a low grade fever, rash, cried (screamed) for hours, and had his whole leg swell up.  I was told it wasn't a big deal.  Fever was a coincidence and swelling is normal and he was a colicky baby so crying happened.  The third shot when he was 6 months old.  His whole leg swelled again, red and hot.  He screamed for several days, barely sleeping, He developed a high fever and hives.  I got it put into his chart that he was allergic to the pertussis part of the vaccine, as per the doctor we saw for his reaction.  In the future he received the DT or T shots and did fine.  Then a couple of years ago he was getting boosters.  He was due for tetanus and I let the nurse know that he was allergic to pertussis vaccine.  She was supposed to just give him the tetanus booster, but gave him the TDaP.  That night he had difficulty breathing, hives, high fever, whole body turned red and hot.  It was super scary.  I checked his online chart and that is when I found out he had been given the wrong shot.  Now, I know that I have to double and triple check what vaccine they are injecting.

That sounds really scary. And I’m really sorry people didn’t listen to you — I’ve had limited luck with doctors listening myself.

[teachermom2834]

I liked some vaccine hesitant posts even though I am vaxxed as is Dh and my 18, 20, and 23 yos. I don’t think it is ridiculous to be hesitant about the vaccines. I don’t think it is ridiculous to assess your personal situation and decide to wait. It isn’t the choice I made but I think it is reasonable to recognize vaccines carry some risk and I am weary of the mocking and browbeating about it. Not everyone that is waiting is believing or spreading conspiracy theories. 

I don’t want to argue about any of it or defend my defense of the hesitant. So that is why I “liked” without posting and I’m sure others are doing the same.

I have posted about being on the receiving end of mocking and disdain because I did vax. I’m sick of all of it. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by teachermom2834

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I don’t think it is ridiculous to be hesitant about the vaccines. I don’t think it is ridiculous to assess your personal situation and decide to wait. 

I don't think it's ridiculous, either. Again, in the best of all possible worlds, I'd wait for more data. I am absolutely more confident about things that are tested for a long time than I am about things that are new. 

But I also don't think it's ridiculous to talk to people about their reasoning 🙂. I think we can all learn from each other. When I was talking about this to @maize a few months back, she provided useful perspective for me. I think we can sometimes do that for each other -- working together is powerful. 

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, Loowit said:

I usually avoid all vaccine discussions because I know my views are biased based on personal experience.  I get tired of hearing about how severe reactions to vaccines are so rare.  To me it sounds like "Eh, who cares if a few people die/are permanently maimed/etc. because this is for the greater good and it is soooo rare."  I get that they are not trying to be cold or heartless, but it still sounds that way because to me it is my real life child that suffered a severe vaccine reaction.  It is a personal, gut reaction, and probably not something I can ever view with cold, hard facts.

I don’t think there are many people who CAN completely put their personal experiences aside, and that’s understandable to me.  I do consider myself to be, generally speaking, vaccine hesitant. My personal experiences with COVID (not having it myself, but many loved ones) not only influenced my pro-covid-vax position, but also sped up the process we were already in to get the kids caught up on some other vaccines.  Was my scientific understanding different then than it is now? No. Is it based on a new perspective on reality? Yes.  

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone deny that there are actual medical reasons to delay or forgo COVID vaccines, and prior vaccine reactions are a known reason. I do feel very fortunate that my household doesn’t have that family history.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone deny that there are actual medical reasons to delay or forgo COVID vaccines, and prior vaccine reactions are a known reason.

Absolutely. That seems like a more than legitimate reason. 

[Jaybee]

10 hours ago, Loowit said:

I guess I want people to be vaccinated, but I understand why some don't or want to wait for more complete picture of any potential long term effects.

This is where I stand. We all got vaccinated. But I have really good friends who have not. The ones that bother me are the ones who make it political and swear they will never ever get it or get tested if they have symptoms, etc., and mock those who do. (Those are not the really good friends.) The ones who are waiting for that more complete picture? Well, I can respect that, and I do not argue with them or demand that they show me their research as to why, etc. Science is looking like the vaccines are a really good thing. But complete picture science takes time. I realize that in the meantime, the virus can mutate more and more people can get sick, die, or have longterm effects from covid, and that is why I would like for them to be vaccinated. But I can also respect their viewpoint and keep my mouth shut. We don't have all the answers. Insisting so would only make me obnoxious, and would cause me to lose precious friends by my having a bulldog approach.

ETA: In case anybody wonders why I "like" posts that sound opposing to each other, and wonder where in the world I stand, this is why. It's sometimes both/and.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Jaybee

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Jaybee said:

But I can also respect their viewpoint and keep my mouth shut. We don't have all the answers. Insisting so would only make me obnoxious, and would cause me to lose precious friends by my having a bulldog approach.

I pretty much don't discuss vaccines with real-life friends at all, lol. I don't see any point with pushing people. But I guess I think the whole point of this message board is to actually discuss things, so I feel different about that. 

[Not_a_Number]

8 hours ago, mjbucks1 said:

If I did not already have the above issues, or if I was high risk, I would most likely go ahead and get the vaccine.  But I really do not want to do anything to make my tinnitus (especially the myoclonus) worse.  And I feel that I am at an increased risk for a negative side effect because of the issues I already have. 

I highlighted your above statement because I think that may be the difference:  I am NOT living my life normally, and many like me are not.  We are not having people over (even family), I only go to the grocery store when necessary, and I always wear a mask (often doubled) and social distance when I do go anywhere (which is not often!). And I am currently NOT working because of COVID.   So I do think my chance of getting COVID is very low, especially since our county positivity rate is very low.  I take COVID seriously.  I don't want to get it either because it can also cause the above issues. 

I remember your post from before 🙂 . I do think that in your situation, I'd very likely wait to get the vaccine IF I were able to continue social distancing. 

I mean... honestly, if I felt able to continue social distancing indefinitely, I might wait for no reason other than the fact that I prefer my drugs to be tested for longer than a year and have been observed in large populations. And for myself, that would be fine. But I have young kids and they need friends, and for me, I have to weigh a 100% of vaccine with a fairly large chance of getting COVID once we start doing playdates and classes again. So them for ME, the calculus feels pretty clear. 

But I don't think the calculations are the same for everyone.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[SpecialClassical]

7 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I see there are 3,848 deaths reported after  230 million doses. No data that I see how many of those deaths are actually linked to the vaccine as opposed to just occurring naturally. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

You are right, and there is no way to know how many elderly people are not on that list.  Their deaths will not be investigated because their families feel it is pointless to pursue.  We had a healthy local 93yr old pass away soon after her vaccine.  She was healthy. Perhaps she had a blood clot, but no one will know. How many people are there like this?  Her family could have had another 10 years with her, which is why she took the shot. Even before people started getting immunized the messaging started that deaths in the elderly shouldn’t alarm us because the elderly might have died anyway. That’s little comfort to the families who loved their grandparents regardless of age. 

[SpecialClassical]

57 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Absolutely. That seems like a more than legitimate reason. 

Yes, this is true. In real life, though, it’s another story. My husband has been very much pressured by his employer and he works from home. His boss even directly asked him if he had gotten a shot and when he said no, he was told he should do his part so we can all get back to normal. My husband should not be put in the position of explaining his medical (or other) reasons with his boss.  Now we fear he has been marked as “not a team player” regardless of over 20 years of faithful service. I don’t know how the shot might affect his medical condition and we are suspicious that he has immunity to CoVID.  It is very hard to get the T cell test, however, to find out. These things are complicated and people don’t want to explain them to everyone they meet. 

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Which vaccine may I ask? 

I don't know.

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, SpecialClassical said:

Yes, this is true. In real life, though, it’s another story. My husband has been very much pressured by his employer and he works from home. His boss even directly asked him if he had gotten a shot and when he said no, he was told he should do his part so we can all get back to normal. My husband should not be put in the position of explaining his medical (or other) reasons with his boss.  Now we fear he has been marked as “not a team player” regardless of over 20 years of faithful service. I don’t know how the shot might affect his medical condition and we are suspicious that he has immunity to CoVID.  It is very hard to get the T cell test, however, to find out. These things are complicated and people don’t want to explain them to everyone they meet. 

In his situation, I'd probably explain that he has a medical reason -- I imagine this is hard on his employer, too, since they are anxious for everything to be "normal." But that sounds like an unpleasant situation 😞 . 

[Syllieann]

34 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I remember your post from before 🙂 . I do think that in your situation, I'd very likely wait to get the vaccine IF I were able to continue social distancing. 

I mean... honestly, if I felt able to continue social distancing indefinitely, I might wait for no reason other than the fact that I prefer my drugs to be tested for longer than a year and have been observed in large populations. And for myself, that would be fine. But I have young kids and they need friends, and for me, I have to weigh a 100% of vaccine with a fairly large chance of getting COVID once we start doing playdates and classes again. So them for ME, the calculus feels pretty clear. 

But I don't think the calculations are the same for everyone.

The way you are guessing at your chances of covid are very different from a lot of us.  I already had my second dose, but if I hadn't and cases or variants surged it would not be difficult at all for us to isolate.  My entire extended family is already vaccinated or already recovered from infection except for two people whom I see infrequently.  Those two have spouses who were infected so I would assume they have some antibodies.  We are homebodies to begin with so we are pretty ok with few play dates.  The kids my kids are closest to have already had covid.  I don't need to go in elevators, to the park, or on public transportation.  So in my case the chance of covid is much smaller.  My 12 yo, for example, will probably not be vaccinated as soon as it becomes available.  They reward is too small to overcome the unknowns.

[mjbucks1]

18 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean... honestly, if I felt able to continue social distancing indefinitely, I might wait for no reason other than the fact that I prefer my drugs to be tested for longer than a year and have been observed in large populations. And for myself, that would be fine. But I have young kids and they need friends, and for me, I have to weigh a 100% of vaccine with a fairly large chance of getting COVID once we start doing playdates and classes again. So them for ME, the calculus feels pretty clear. 

But I don't think the calculations are the same for everyone.

Our youngest is 12, and for certain this has been difficult for him as his brother and sister are off at college.  His piano teacher has been vaccinated, so he has been doing live piano lessons (with a mask).  And we have been going to our speech class (we just started in March).  We all social distance and wear masks.  Many have either had Covid or are vaccinated, and we are not a huge club, so we feel it is fairly safe.  And we have been going to church (we stared 2 services, socially distanced and masked and we have not had any outbreaks).  Those are the three activities we do.  We have met a few people in the park for play dates, but have been outside, masked, and socially distanced (we are all on the same page regarding Covid).  I totally understand that with young children this would be very difficult to maintain! 

I also look at it as the majority (78%) who have been hospitalized or died have been overweight or obese.  The majority have also been over 65.  I know so many people who have had it (including people in their 80's), and only two were hospitalized.  The one person was elderly and she recovered, the other person was a high school classmate who previously had cancer and was severely obese (he did pass away).  Our daughter had it and she hardly knew she had it (scratchy throat and headache).  She only got tested because she had been exposed).  Having high blood pressure, diabetes, being over weight or obese, or having obstructive sleep apnea put you at higher risk, and I don't have any of these.  So I totally agree that the calculations are not the same for everyone.  And I really am glad there is a vaccine.  I am especially glad that those who are high risk can get the vaccine, and I think anyone who wants it should get it.  I don't blame you for getting it.  My husband is fully vaccinated, as are many of my relatives.  I really want to get it, and wish I felt like I could get it.  And now they are saying more booster shots in the fall.  I just can't do that yet.  Too many unknowns for me.