another church thread - should the sermon centered idea of church change?

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, MrsMommy said:

I guess it depends on what the purpose of the sermon is.

In my church (which is part of the LCMS), the sermons are usually based on the readings for the day from the one-year lectionary, but they're also written directly to our specific congregation, because the pastor knows what we need to hear. I don't think a more generic podcast would have the same purpose, because the audience would be much wider, and the preacher wouldn't know the "congregation" in the same way.

I do think that shorter is better when it comes to sermons, though. There's no reason to go on and on and on for 20-30 minutes (or more!), often repeating yourself multiple times, when a 10-12 minute sermon will do.

 

I'm from the Baptist and Bible Church branches of Christianity.  The trend for the last 20 ish years or so has been going through one book of the bible at a time, verse by verse.  Sermons are typically 40-60 minutes long, sometimes longer, depending on the pastor.   There's not much repetition in a sermon. I think it should be a mix of a one book of the Bible series, then a topical series or two, then another one book of the bible series, then a topical series or two if people are going to stick with a typical type sermon. 

I also think to be truly effective, a pastor should interact regularly with congregants so he can better select what to focus on. I had one who started inviting individuals to his house for coffee and he and his wife would ask how we were doing, how they could pray for us, what we thought we would most needed to hear him teaching/preaching about, any concerns we had, any feedback we thought they needed on anything, etc.  It turned out most wanted to know more about prayer, so that became the priority in small groups where no one but me, pastor, and pastor's wife would read the assigned passages and or book and discuss. Others showed up to listen. Sigh.

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Junie said:

Yes, this is hard for me to grasp because it has not been my experience.  I am trying to understand, though. 🙂

I think a lot of us here are academically minded, so sitting and listning and note taking work for our mindset. It does for me, but I'm hearing it does not for a lot of people. 

1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

The traditional liturgies, i.e Latin Mass, are the most social Catholic churches around here.  

But I'll be honest, I actually have zero interest in fellowship beyond simple pleasantries after Mass.  I have a large base of Catholic friends who I share fellowship with and none of them go to my church.  

Where/how did you meet them? I'm very curious!

1 hour ago, Hyacinth said:

So many good thoughts in this thread!

Regarding the topic of "fellowship," a book called Introverts in the Church opens with the observation that for a lot of people (including ME!), the chit chat time before the Sunday morning service is like a cocktail party without the benefit of alcohol (my paraphrase). For introverts, at least, this is NOT fellowship. It's more likely an awkward social expectation.

 

 

Yes....I spend most coffee hours sitting by myself, or chasing kids. Or I just take my coffee and go to the playground with the kids...I do chat sometimes with other moms there. 

If it was more focused, maybe it would be better. I don't get much out of it other than good coffee and the joy of seeing my kids have fun. (I mean the coffee hour, not the service! I do get a lot out of the service)

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I just started reading Why No One Wants to Go To Church.  Lecture style sermons are one of the reasons.  People have doubts and questions they want to discuss in depth, something they're not able to do in a sermon styled gathering. At least that's what the people who did the research were told.  My experience in discussion focused small groups is that the leadership and I are are the only ones who want to read the assigned passage, think about it, and discuss it.  Maybe the churches I've attended are in the wrong demographic.

I do prefer lecture style in some situations (sermon, conference, etc.). But we have the small group classes before the worship service, and our class has a lot of discussion. Part of it is that the teacher asks questions, and part of it is that we just have a great participatory class. That's a big part of the reason we are still at this church. We enjoy these folks so much.

[HeartString]

42 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

think a lot of us here are academically minded, so sitting and listning and note taking work for our mindset. It does for me, but I'm hearing it does not for a lot of people. 

I think I’m starting to understand that part of what has felt empty to me in the past has been that there was nothing noteworthy about the sermons.  It’s all just the pastors opinion, mixed in with jabs at other denominations and a bit of wink, wink own the libs mixed in.  More evidence that I need a whole new denomination.  We’ve tended to “Compromise” on non-denominational churches and it’s not working.  A more liturgical church might work better.  

Edited April 23, 2021 by HeartString

[Bootsie]

I do not agree with the basic premise that now we have podcasts, or other technology, so people can now learn without listening in person to someone.  We have had books and libraries for centuries.  We have had cassette tapes and CDs.  We have had videos for decades now.  All of those items did not replace in-person learning.  We have had televisions which have allowed for wide broadcast of teaching. 

From  a religious practices perspective, I think there is also a difference in "teaching" and "preaching" .  I see the purpose of a sermon/homily more about preaching and less about teaching.

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I think I’m starting to understand that part of what has felt empty to me in the past has been that there was nothing noteworthy about the sermons.  It’s all just the pastors opinion, mixed in with jabs at other denominations and a bit of wink, wink own the libs mixed in.  More evidence that I need a whole new denomination.  We’ve tended to “Compromise” on non-denominational churches and it’s not working.  A more liturgical church might work better.  

Oh, yikes! No, that would not work for me!

I also avoid churches with sermons that feel more like pop psychology than theology. 

You are welcome to check out the sermons at my current church, they have a youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwKJaWqKU_k1uKBpmvkDQiA

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I do not agree with the basic premise that now we have podcasts, or other technology, so people can now learn without listening in person to someone.  We have had books and libraries for centuries.  We have had cassette tapes and CDs.  We have had videos for decades now.  All of those items did not replace in-person learning.  We have had televisions which have allowed for wide broadcast of teaching. 

From  a religious practices perspective, I think there is also a difference in "teaching" and "preaching" .  I see the purpose of a sermon/homily more about preaching and less about teaching.

I think that is a great point. I actually did not enjoy attending churches where it felt more like teaching, rather than preaching...hadn't thought of it that way before. I remember my mom said of one church we tried when I was a teen, "it just seemed like Bible Study, not church". I think that was an example of teaching, not preaching. 

[Bootsie]

16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think that is a great point. I actually did not enjoy attending churches where it felt more like teaching, rather than preaching...hadn't thought of it that way before. I remember my mom said of one church we tried when I was a teen, "it just seemed like Bible Study, not church". I think that was an example of teaching, not preaching. 

Although preaching would not exclusively be to a small group, often I think it t is meant more for the specific needs of the congregation, or the group gathered.  That part of preaching I do not think can be replaced by people pre-recorded, general preaching.  

[HeartString]

What is the difference between preaching and teaching? 

Edited April 23, 2021 by HeartString

[hjffkj]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Where/how did you meet them? I'm very curious!

 

Many places.  My absolute best friend is Catholic and we met at college, not a religious one.  Other's I've met at the place I used to do kung-fu.  Many are from a home school group that one of my friends formed because she wanted a relax faith based group where we could do service projects, field trips,  science projects, etc.  

The few times I've actually tried to be part of my parishes activities I realized that many people were poorly catechized and had little interest in actually learning what the church teaches.  So, finding fellowship there isn't a priority for me but my priests are better than most.

[Bootsie]

23 minutes ago, HeartString said:

What is the difference between preaching and teaching? 

Teaching is education; it is about providing information and facts.

Preaching is about proclaiming the Good News.  

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

I think I’m starting to understand that part of what has felt empty to me in the past has been that there was nothing noteworthy about the sermons.  It’s all just the pastors opinion, mixed in with jabs at other denominations and a bit of wink, wink own the libs mixed in.  More evidence that I need a whole new denomination.  We’ve tended to “Compromise” on non-denominational churches and it’s not working.  A more liturgical church might work better.  

You should definitely find a church where the minister preaches the Word. And won't throw in much that is not backed up by Scripture.

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I do not agree with the basic premise that now we have podcasts, or other technology, so people can now learn without listening in person to someone.  We have had books and libraries for centuries.  We have had cassette tapes and CDs.  We have had videos for decades now.  All of those items did not replace in-person learning.  We have had televisions which have allowed for wide broadcast of teaching. 

 

I just came from a funeral of a 30 something man in our community. There were two pastors who spoke at the funeral, sharing personal anecdotes of their experiences with this man. They and several other pastors from our community from the churches in our area (that the family have attended over the years) who have poured into this family at their time of loss, as in personally sitting in the living room of the wife and kids and parents and siblings of this guy. The messages at that funeral were hopeful, yet, still sad because of the loss.

Church is not only about "learning about the Bible." Of course that can be done on one's own, but more than that, church should provide community. And that takes all of the members being intentional about both attending what happens in the church, making connections with others, being warm and welcoming to new comers, and helping staff different positions. 

I do think that this can be harder and harder to do in churches that grow larger and larger. It's hard to find that community in several thousand people.

As far as the weekly worship service, our denomination tries (in the ideal) to model services after what the New Testament Churches practiced.

Worship in the method of singing, reading of the word, prayer, giving, and preaching are  all meant to be included in our weekly Sunday Service.

 We also have Sunday School, which functions as small groups and Bible studies midweek that is another form of small group. Childcare is provided for pretty much everything, but nobody is pressured to use any of it. One thing that I truly admire about our pastor is that it seldom seems to bother him at all if children or mentally challenged individuals make noise in the service. He just keeps speaking and is able to function well, despite the distraction, and that attitude trickles down to church members. Nobody that I know of gives the stink eye to any child being a little noisy. We're all glad they're there. I think our pastor, as the father of 5 kids, has practice just keeping on keeping on in the midst of distractions.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

What is the difference between preaching and teaching? 

For me,teaching is explaining the scripture. Preaching is going beyond that to how it effects our lives, to how it changes how we should live, etc. (simple off the top of my head not feeling great explanation) 

1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

Many places.  My absolute best friend is Catholic and we met at college, not a religious one.  Other's I've met at the place I used to do kung-fu.  Many are from a home school group that one of my friends formed because she wanted a relax faith based group where we could do service projects, field trips,  science projects, etc.  

The few times I've actually tried to be part of my parishes activities I realized that many people were poorly catechized and had little interest in actually learning what the church teaches.  So, finding fellowship there isn't a priority for me but my priests are better than most.

See, I wonder if the homeschool group is sort of the new parish school in a lot of places? A place to find community with individuals in the same stage of life, etc. Actually...more thoughts on that in a different post, lol. 

[ktgrok]

Thinking more....church was THE community for a long time. It was where everything happened, from baptism to wedding to funeral to picnics and craft fairs, to scout troops and in some cases, school as well, either preschool or elementary. 

Now, we have people attending a church that do school in one place (or several with different kids), sports at the school or community center, scouts at the school, craft fair at the community center, weddings all over the dang place including hotels, funerals are often skipped, etc etc. We have a lot of other draws on our time, and a lot of other places to do those things. And when we seek to volunteer the church isn't the go to place - we have all sorts of options. 

Maybe the issue isn't the 1 hour of service/worship, but all that other stuff that has destroyed the aspect of church as community for so many?

 

[WoolC]

I don’t think that you can set aside the Eucharist or the sacramental from these discussions.  I grew up SBC and in my 20s I began following some of the “celebrity” pastors in the reformed world, listening to them online, reading their books, etc.  Sunday morning sermons in my small church did become a big let down in comparison with everything you can listen to online.  The churches I attended were 3 songs and a sermon type formats and it all did feel very empty, I really only continued out of a sense of duty.  I learned far more from listening to other pastors on my own time than I did on Sunday morning, and learning the Bible is set up as one of the main reasons for attending church in that denomination.

It wasn’t until I grasped the Eucharist that I realized worship isn’t singing and a sermon in the first place.  (I know many will disagree with this, I promise I’m not trying to be disrespectful of any denominations beliefs, just trying to explain my experience) Worship in all of the ancient religions culminated in a sacrifice which would then be consumed by the worshippers .  Christ is our sacrifice and partaking in the Eucharist is the culmination of Christian worship.  Praise songs/hymns and preaching from the Word are great and important, but no wonder it feels like you can get that same thing online...you can!  The continual discussions about “how we should do church” when I was SBC drove me nuts...why do we need to keep reinventing the wheel here?  I finally got off the merry go round and explored Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and eventually became Lutheran.  Liturgy, confession and absolution, communion, and baptism made worship meaningful.  I just don’t get gutting the central act of worship and then trying to invent a new way to get people to come.

I hesitate to actually post this because I’m afraid it comes off as disrespectful to the beliefs of others.  It’s just that the discussion on the Holy Post is SO close to where the light bulb finally came on for me that I can’t help but point it out.  
 

and yes Katie, just saw the last point you added and I agree.  Non-sacramental churches used to provide community, but that can be had in so many ways now.  People would rather connect over other interests.  

[HeartString]

So I’m thinking the answer is no.  There is no different way to do church.  

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, WoolC said:

I don’t think that you can set aside the Eucharist or the sacramental from these discussions.  I grew up SBC and in my 20s I began following some of the “celebrity” pastors in the reformed world, listening to them online, reading their books, etc.  Sunday morning sermons in my small church did become a big let down in comparison with everything you can listen to online.  The churches I attended were 3 songs and a sermon type formats and it all did feel very empty, I really only continued out of a sense of duty.  I learned far more from listening to other pastors on my own time than I did on Sunday morning, and learning the Bible is set up as one of the main reasons for attending church in that denomination.

It wasn’t until I grasped the Eucharist that I realized worship isn’t singing and a sermon in the first place.  (I know many will disagree with this, I promise I’m not trying to be disrespectful of any denominations beliefs, just trying to explain my experience) Worship in all of the ancient religions culminated in a sacrifice which would then be consumed by the worshippers .  Christ is our sacrifice and partaking in the Eucharist is the culmination of Christian worship.  Praise songs/hymns and preaching from the Word are great and important, but no wonder it feels like you can get that same thing online...you can!  The continual discussions about “how we should do church” when I was SBC drove me nuts...why do we need to keep reinventing the wheel here?  I finally got off the merry go round and explored Orthodoxy, Catholicism, and eventually became Lutheran.  Liturgy, confession and absolution, communion, and baptism made worship meaningful.  I just don’t get gutting the central act of worship and then trying to invent a new way to get people to come.

I hesitate to actually post this because I’m afraid it comes off as disrespectful to the beliefs of others.  It’s just that the discussion on the Holy Post is SO close to where the light bulb finally came on for me that I can’t help but point it out.  
 

and yes Katie, just saw the last point you added and I agree.  Non-sacramental churches used to provide community, but that can be had in so many ways now.  People would rather connect over other interests.  

I actually agree a lot - there is so much going on, that I'm actually DOING when I go to a liturgical church, that it is a different thing. I can't do it all at home - which is why I'm SO glad to be going back now that I'm vaccinated,a nd praying that my kids can be vaccinated ASAP. 

But even then, I do leave wanting more as far as community, I think. But that may be as simple as, I have ZERO Christian friends that I'm close to. ZERO. My friends that I know here all are atheist or pagan or agnostic and none attend any kind of church. My husband does not attend with me anymore. I'm on my own there. And I haven't made friends there....partly because I have social anxiety and am shy, partly because it is a smaller church in a much more well off neighborhood 25 minutes away, etc. There are only a very few people there in my age/stage of life and they get their social needs met at well, their kids school, scouts, etc, lol. 

One good thing about moving is I may be nearer to at least one person I sort of know who I think is Christian....and wow is that a pathetic statement. 

I did go to a mom's group when I was still at the Catholic Parish, but was an outsider as one of only two homeschoolers, and she did homeschool stuff with anothr parish 40 minutes away from me (she lived in between the two so for her that was doable). Most had their kids in the church preschool or elementary school, so bonded over that. 

And it was SO huge...another issue. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, HeartString said:

So I’m thinking the answer is no.  There is no different way to do church.  

I think maybe there already are a lot of ways to "do" church. From bible teachings read from a stage to Taize meditation services to liturgical masses. And then if we extend it and think of small groups as church as well. But maybe we are not making enough options open in each denomination? Maybe we can learn from each other? 

Also, one thing that was said in the podcast is that a lot of people who stop attending services stay with their small group. That they get more from small group than Sunday services. Something to consider. 

But for you, if you have not tried some VERY different types, maybe try them virtually now during the pandemic? And if liturgical is a new thing to try, there are lots of variations even of that, regarding denominaiton and how "fancy" they are - Lutheran, Episcopal, Anglican groups not associated with the Anglican Communion (complicated, lol), Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (including Russian, Greek, and other parishes), Eastern Catholic, Old Catholic, etc etc. 

Might be fun to "try" some online, although really, you have to BE there to get the true feeling of participation. But at least you could check out diffrent pastors and priests to see if any resonate. I chose my current parish that way, actually. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by ktgrok

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Also, one thing that was said in the podcast is that a lot of people who stop attending services stay with their small group. That they get more from small group than Sunday services. Something to consider. 

 

I am not  convinced that staying with their small group is really about being part of a church.  Often it is simply a clique that people find they enjoy.  It is easy for the sharing of prayer concerns to become veiled gossiping.  The group is not open to outside learning but reinforces each others opinions and beliefs; individual members are not challenged to grow.  And, the group is not open or accepting to outsiders and ministering to their needs.  The group becomes very closed and self-serving which is, IMO, the opposite of "church".  

[WoolC]

25 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I actually agree a lot - there is so much going on, that I'm actually DOING when I go to a liturgical church, that it is a different thing. I can't do it all at home - which is why I'm SO glad to be going back now that I'm vaccinated,a nd praying that my kids can be vaccinated ASAP. 

But even then, I do leave wanting more as far as community, I think. But that may be as simple as, I have ZERO Christian friends that I'm close to. ZERO. My friends that I know here all are atheist or pagan or agnostic and none attend any kind of church. My husband does not attend with me anymore. I'm on my own there. And I haven't made friends there....partly because I have social anxiety and am shy, partly because it is a smaller church in a much more well off neighborhood 25 minutes away, etc. There are only a very few people there in my age/stage of life and they get their social needs met at well, their kids school, scouts, etc, lol. 

One good thing about moving is I may be nearer to at least one person I sort of know who I think is Christian....and wow is that a pathetic statement. 

I did go to a mom's group when I was still at the Catholic Parish, but was an outsider as one of only two homeschoolers, and she did homeschool stuff with anothr parish 40 minutes away from me (she lived in between the two so for her that was doable). Most had their kids in the church preschool or elementary school, so bonded over that. 

And it was SO huge...another issue. 

I relate to a lot of this so much.  I’m also shy, introverted, and I have 2 kids with PANS and autism, so it’s super hard for me to connect with other moms.  I was in the evangelical world that pushed fellowship, small groups and socializing, which I fully participated in, but never actually connected in a meaningful way with other women in the church.  I guess that has made it easier for me to separate out the issue of my lack of connection with the type of church I attend.  I’m going to have a hard time either way and it is lonely.  

At my Lutheran church there is a prayer shawl ministry that meets once a month to get together and knit or crochet blankets and shawls for those in need and chat (Pre-COVID).  I’m the youngest woman that attends by a good 20 years but I really enjoy getting together with them.  Maybe you can look for a hobby or volunteer group or start one affiliated with your church.  It’s a lot easier for me with a smaller group that already has something in common.

[Faith-manor]

Well, as someone who has deconverted (for lack of a better term) still married to a progressive but devoted Christian man, I can say that for him, the pandemic has been an eye opener. I mean that in a very, very bad way. Evangelical behavior locally was off the charts horrible during this past year, and he is reevaluating church.

From his perspective, he says he can no longer find any positive reason to attend church other than obligation which doesn't set well with him. On top of which, if the church actively participates in violations of his conscience, he feels he has zero obligation to attend.

I do not know what the answer is. A full year of non-attendance, and he honestly says he feels like he is a better person giving up church and is making it permanent.

Beyond that, there are several things that are problematic. First Responders and third shift workers have always had spotty or non-existent attendance because traditional church doesn't work with their work and sleep schedules. I do know that livestreaming and having a YouTube channel at least allows them to go back and watch church. For the elderly and chronically ill this also is a step in the right direction. 

The younger generation seems to question the use of money to maintain large buildings, staffs, etc. They really do see it as money that would be better used taking care of folks. So I wonder if some sort of home chaplaincy program with home visits, serving communion to small groups who gather in homes around their work schedules, might be a better idea. Plus, whether the Christian community likes it or not, it functions in a society in which the Sabbath is not a thing. Schools hold events on Sundays, sports practice, scads of people have to work. Even if it is determined that traditional church is a requirement, it doesn't change the pressure and outright demands on families from society. Some kind of very flexible thing will need to take its place or continue to lose folks.

That said, I do think the church is experiencing a decline in attendance because this isn't the post war society anymore where offspring felt pressure to continue to attend their parents' denomination, and success in society might be impeded by not being a church goer. That is good. I think from 1950-2000 many churches had false "numbers" concerning the true picture of who believes and who doesn't. Now those kids are grown, do not believe, and are raising their kids very differently. So this is a bit, big shift for churches. This is a crowd that is not likely to be won over by different programming, new approaches. It is going to take a long time for the wounds of 2020/21 to heal, if they ever do.

 

It is also worth noting that so many times in past eras, people did not have church to attend. It is kind of a luxury of things like cars, and a church building on every street corner. It isn't actually particularly "normal" from a historical perspective to have access to the Eucharist every week or a large group of like minded people to spend a couple of hours with. So maybe it would be worth exploring how people maintained and worshipped prior to the modern church movement, and seeing if there is anything worth gleaning from and implementing.

[hjffkj]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

See, I wonder if the homeschool group is sort of the new parish school in a lot of places? A place to find community with individuals in the same stage of life, etc. Actually...more thoughts on that in a different post, lol. 

It probably is.  I never like putting all my eggs in one basket though in regards to where/how to form friendships.  And I actually have seen more times than not that it ends up being a bad place to find friendship because it ends up being only situational friendships.  Similar interest activities is how to find lasting friendships and I don't think simply home schooling ones children is not an adequate enough interest from my experience.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

And if liturgical is a new thing to try, there are lots of variations even of that, regarding denominaiton and how "fancy" they are - Lutheran, Episcopal, Anglican groups not associated with the Anglican Communion (complicated, lol), Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox (including Russian, Greek, and other parishes), Eastern Catholic, Old Catholic, etc etc. 

Might be fun to "try" some online, although really, you have to BE there to get the true feeling of participation. But at least you could check out diffrent pastors and priests to see if any resonate. I chose my current parish that way, actually. 

I picked up a copy of the Episcopalian Book of Common Prayer (BoCP) several years ago because I wanted a different Christian perspective on prayer than I've gotten at evangelical churches (Baptist variations, non-denom, Bible Church, Evangelical Free Church, Reformed Evangelical.) I also did Bible Gateway's Anglican daily readings as part of my personal devotional time to broaden my horizons a bit. I found it beautifully and effectively structured to get someone through scripture systematically. 

I do think there's an aspect of liturgical church that simply can't be had at evangelical churches that don't have any type of liturgy deeper than a structure for a church service.  I like the active roll of congregants and I like the idea of an entire denomination focused on the same content at the same time even though we're scattered all over in different local congregations.  Having at least some part of a familiar liturgy at each life event service (marriages, new baby, funerals) could be a very helpful and meaningful component that could blend well with some amount of freestyling too. Imagine, no matter which church you attend, there's something that binds us all together in a corporate act of worship.

 Having prayers written in the PoCp that people can choose to recite together in appropriate circumstances that are a summary of what the Bible teaches on the subject is brilliant. I know it seems obvious by the title and if you're from that background, but to those of us who didn't have it as a tool, it's light a light bulb going off in a dim place. It's educational if you grow up around it, its reassuring that you're not praying contrary to God's will, it's available for use when have no idea what to pray, and there's a communal aspect to it.  The Great Litany is downright genius. One prayer written out that a person could choose to pray individually or as part of a community that covers everything we're supposed to pray for. (Quite a list!)

That said, learning to pray free style is important and shouldn't be neglected and there is merit to having some flexibility in church services too. All that to fill in people who aren't familiar with the BoCP and to say that I would be interested in more of a mix of the two.  Enough flexibility to address timely issues within each congregation, room for some variety and cultural expression, and enough structure to connect us in a more real way to The Church Universal all over the world. 

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I am not  convinced that staying with their small group is really about being part of a church.  Often it is simply a clique that people find they enjoy.  It is easy for the sharing of prayer concerns to become veiled gossiping.  The group is not open to outside learning but reinforces each others opinions and beliefs; individual members are not challenged to grow.  And, the group is not open or accepting to outsiders and ministering to their needs.  The group becomes very closed and self-serving which is, IMO, the opposite of "church".  

Maybe sometimes. I know our small group has a variety of opinions expressed. (For example, some masks, some not, some vaccinated, some very much say never.) The opinions are similar on religious interpretations--I mean, that is why we are in that denomination--but there are still questions asked and various thoughts shared. The prayer concerns are our own, and they are not gossip. (Though I have been in groups like you are referencing.)

[Jaybee]

I have gone to evangelical churches all my life. However, if I were the only one concerned in it, I might look for a more liturgical church. The dignity, the responses, the patterns--that appeals to me, and I would find it meaningful.

[Danae]

I don’t think “the sermon centered idea of church” is as universal as the question seems to assume it is.  I’ve never belonged to a church where that was the norm.  I haven’t liked it when I’ve encountered it as a visitor, but I don’t feel like I can say “yes, it should change” because it’s not my church that would be changing.  

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I am not  convinced that staying with their small group is really about being part of a church.  Often it is simply a clique that people find they enjoy.  It is easy for the sharing of prayer concerns to become veiled gossiping.  The group is not open to outside learning but reinforces each others opinions and beliefs; individual members are not challenged to grow.  And, the group is not open or accepting to outsiders and ministering to their needs.  The group becomes very closed and self-serving which is, IMO, the opposite of "church".  

Wow. As someone that never has been in a small group, I didn't even think of that. 

1 hour ago, WoolC said:

I relate to a lot of this so much.  I’m also shy, introverted, and I have 2 kids with PANS and autism, so it’s super hard for me to connect with other moms.  I was in the evangelical world that pushed fellowship, small groups and socializing, which I fully participated in, but never actually connected in a meaningful way with other women in the church.  I guess that has made it easier for me to separate out the issue of my lack of connection with the type of church I attend.  I’m going to have a hard time either way and it is lonely.  

At my Lutheran church there is a prayer shawl ministry that meets once a month to get together and knit or crochet blankets and shawls for those in need and chat (Pre-COVID).  I’m the youngest woman that attends by a good 20 years but I really enjoy getting together with them.  Maybe you can look for a hobby or volunteer group or start one affiliated with your church.  It’s a lot easier for me with a smaller group that already has something in common.

My parish actually started a prayer shawl ministry...but I don't knit or crochet, lol. Gives me carpal tunnel ...but good idea. 

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

I grew up in a liturgical, Anglican church with British roots that is the form of worship the Queen uses. My family has worshipped there for generations. I love the processions, the changing of seasons, the ceremony, the incense, the candles, the pipe organ, the hymns, the church bells the stained glass windows , the architecture. It was a Cathedral built by the British. I grew up saying the Creed not just on Sundays, but regularly and it is still the thing I repeat the most after the Lord's prayer. We even now  have whoever serves as the Archbishop of Canterbury visit regularly and usually there is a stampede to get communion from his hands as he gives communion to the Queen. I was involved in Sunday school both going and teaching, youth group, caroling, choir. Church was a huge part of my life. I loved the communion, festival times especially were so special and we would go for multiple services. But what made it enduring and  I did not realize when I was there were the sermons. Simple, powerful, straight from the Bible. They stuck to me even as a child when my attention wandered. I used to write them down like taking notes, the verses my Pastor referenced, the content. 

When I came here, I missed the architecture, the sounds of the church bells, hymns. I hated praise band, it felt like a rock concert. The church looked like an auditorium. They had power point, no hymn books or looking for verses in the Bible, it was on the screen. It did not feel like Church. But I would have overlooked all these if I had solid preaching.

What I say may sound extremely controversial, but I have sat in multiple denominations and I have not found consistent, solid, biblical preaching that I could take the meat and leave the bones. Even Southern baptist churches which were known for their thundering hell and brimstone preaching I was told were not like that in my experience. Instead I have heard people use Hollywood movies "to connect". For me, the primary  purpose of a pastor is to preach, to give the word of God consistently week after week. I am not expecting a master public speaker, a great orator but I expect someone who knows the word of God, who explains it, not tells stories or shows you tube clips. This is the singular reason we have not found a church home. The lack of good preaching that fills you for the rest of the week I have not found in many denominations we visit. The second reason I would want to go to church is the sacrament. I was not comfortable taking the sacrament from an unordained person. 

So for most of the time I have been an adult, we have home churched. I love listening to old Billy Graham sermons.I grew up on them and I still listen to them. My dad would record sermons for me and when the churches started putting audio versions of the sermon online I would listen them. Ravi Zacharias was one of my favorites, I am heart broken to listen to him now.

I love the beauty of liturgical worship, hymns. I listen to 9 lessons and carols every year. I love the sound of Church bells, celebrating seasons like Advent and Lent so we do that in our family worship. We listen to sermons all the time and play them on Sundays. Now that we have virtual service Saturday evenings here which are Sunday mornings in India are spent watching live service and joining in a few others. 

I am learning to like Contemporary Christian music. But I do not want to go to Church that looks like going to a concert. There is a feeling I get in churches in India, even a village church with a thatched roof I do not find in American churches I have gone even traditional Southern Baptist Churches which was a huge shock to me even if their music was more what I loved. It is something I can't describe that is missing to me. 

I think American churches need more robust sermons, straight from the Bible. Not gimmicky. I grew up on them, when I wandered in my faith and almost lost it, what I remembered was the way my church was and how faith was such a huge part of our family. We used to sit and listen to sermons, write them down, go back and discuss, look up verses. Nothing is more grounding to me for a church than a sermon that feeds your soul and the sacrament.  Otherwise, why go ?

Dreamer Girl, have you tried an Episcopal Church? I don't know how many there are in your area, but it is the same shared faith as what you would have grown up with. Some due have contemporary music, but not most. Mine doesn't. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

We go for the sacrament once a month on an average. It is far away, close to an hour one way. 

Bummer. Is it like what you remember at all? Or more contemporary?

 

[Bootsie]

30 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Maybe sometimes. I know our small group has a variety of opinions expressed. (For example, some masks, some not, some vaccinated, some very much say never.) The opinions are similar on religious interpretations--I mean, that is why we are in that denomination--but there are still questions asked and various thoughts shared. The prayer concerns are our own, and they are not gossip. (Though I have been in groups like you are referencing.)

Oh, I think small groups can be wonderful and impactful  What I have seen as an issue is when they are used as a replacement for a broader church experience.  I think certain parts of the church community experience are missing from it.  

[HS Mom in NC]

38 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Oh, I think small groups can be wonderful and impactful  What I have seen as an issue is when they are used as a replacement for a broader church experience.  I think certain parts of the church community experience are missing from it.  

Yes, but a big problem is not having a clearly defined role for each small groups. Generally speaking, when a group's goals/focus/priorities aren't explicitly stated you almost always end up with different people there for different reasons and the group becomes a hazy, vague, diluted mix of all sorts of things.  Is small group for socializing?  Is it for developing closer relationships?  Intensive targeted study and discussion?  Casual study and discussion? Prayer?  Heal-Auntie Hortence's-bunions-prayer? Help-me-not-look-at-porn-because-it's-ruining-my-marriage prayer? Help-me-understand-my-anger-and-what-to-do-about-it prayer? Lead-us-to-a-new-ministry-for-the-destitute-and-supply-resources prayer?

[ktgrok]

37 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

My home church is what is called High Church service, I am not exactly sure what it means except it is more ceremonial and very British old school. The Archbishop of Canterbury is at home there so very much formal service.  Altar cloths changed for the seasons, the priest changing robes mid service, processions with banners inside the Church for different seasons and on festivals, cross with a very decorative cross, candles in the altar, altar servers, lots of genuflection, incense, cross central to the altar. We sang the creed (nicene) and the entire communion service. 

In the church we go frequently to, it is stripped down. Far less ceremonial and formal, the priest wears robes but the altar cloth is only white always The cross is simple, lot less ceremony, they say the creed, not sing. Less candles in fact I hardly saw candles. They do have incense but not used as frequently as we did back in my home church. Never seen processions. Less elaborate altar, less genuflection.  I would not say contemporary but far less formal. 

Very few still sing the service, which makes me sad. I've been to a few sung services and they ARE special!

But on the other hand, I've never been to one that doesn't change the altar cloth/vestments/etc for the season! Or have candles! Even at home, during the pandemic, when we watched the service on YouTube I put out a piece of felt in the proper color for the liturgical season on the table next to the TV, lit a candle and put it there, etc. 

We only do incense on holidays though - my understanding the cut back is mostly due to people with allergies/sensitivities to it. Which I get, and I'm glad we are sensitive to those people, but I DO love me some incense. In fact, I got some frankincense scented fragrance oils to put in my diffuser on Sunday for at home. 

You definitely are looking for High Church. If you can find where the Cathedral for your Diocese is you might have better luck there. 

Oh, and when you say procession - do you mean the one at the start of every service, where they process in with candles, and the cross, etc? Or like, on Easter when there are banners and more pomp? I think there is also a procession on All Saints Day, if I remember right. 

[ktgrok]

36 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

No, the one with banners when they go around the aisles for high holy days. My brother was one of the people who carried the cross when we were younger. Now my nephew does. I really wish my son could. 

I think all the churches I've gone to do this. 

[ktgrok]

Dreamer Girl, this was this Easter - no procession since Covid...not quite "normal" given precautions on how many are there, distancing, etc, but still nice. Not sung though 😞 

And this is the altar at a church I attended in South Florida

Edited April 24, 2021 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

16 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The one in the US one does not have banners, I do not remember if we went for high holy days. We must have in all the years. They do not have aisles to walk around though, just the center aisle and pews on either side with very small pulpit by the side of the altar where they preach the sermon and a little lectern on the other side where the reading is done. They only have the one altar that looks like a table in the middle like in the church picture. They do not have the back altar and only two candles on the altar with a cross on the back wall or the altar not sure.  

My home church looks more  like the Florida church picture with multiple candles in the back altar, the branches of candles with the cross at the back altar. The draping of the cloth at the back altar was quite elaborate, it reached the floor, almost like an altar skirt completely covering it. It used to be made of gold brocade cloth of various colors for the many seasons. I used to love the green and purple gold brocade and the priest wore vestments of the same material. Really lovely. 

I have never stopped missing my home church in all these years.  

ETA: Your church is so pretty. Mine had a huge stained glass window by the altar. I used to love it. 

You know, you might want to see if you have any Latin Mass Catholic churches in your area. You wouldn't be able to take communion, and the service would be in Latin (most have a booklet with the latin and english on opposite pages), but it might feel familiar. Or if there are any Anglican Ordinariate Catholic Churches. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Dreamer Girl, this was this Easter - no procession since Covid...not quite "normal" given precautions on how many are there, distancing, etc, but still nice. Not sung though 😞 

And this is the altar at a church I attended in South Florida

 

I had to do a double take, as the altar looks very similar to the Episcopal (Anglo Catholic) church we have around the corner.

Bill

 

[vonfirmath]

Just now, Dreamergal said:

I've gone to Latin mass in the Catholic church and found it very familiar. Our neighbors go to Latin Mass and we often accompany them especially for Ash Wednesday to get blessed with the Ashes (the father knows we are not Catholic). We used to have that in our home church. We also go for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services, obviously no communion, but the father knows us so we bend for a blessing if we see him. I do not know if any Protestant churches especially Southern Baptist have services for that. I don't even know if the Episcopalian church has services here. We used to have communion service in the evening for Maundy Thursday and 12-3 service on Good Friday on the seven words of the cross, no communion (Good Friday is a national holiday in India). We also had communion on weekdays early morning. I would go on exam days for that and then rush to school. Church was a huge part of our every day life which I miss so much. 

I must look up Anglican Ordinariate Catholic church.

Our old church had Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services.

Our current church only has Good Friday.

However I suspect it would be different than you are used to.

[ktgrok]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I've gone to Latin mass in the Catholic church and found it very familiar. Our neighbors go to Latin Mass and we often accompany them especially for Ash Wednesday to get blessed with the Ashes (the father knows we are not Catholic). We used to have that in our home church. We also go for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday services, obviously no communion, but the father knows us so we bend for a blessing if we see him. I do not know if any Protestant churches especially Southern Baptist have services for that. I don't even know if the Episcopalian church has services here. We used to have communion service in the evening for Maundy Thursday and 12-3 service on Good Friday on the seven words of the cross, no communion (Good Friday is a national holiday in India). We also had communion on weekdays early morning. I would go on exam days for that and then rush to school. Church was a huge part of our every day life which I miss so much. 

I must look up Anglican Ordinariate Catholic church.

All the Episcopal churches I've been to have a Maundy Thursday service, and a very solemn Good Friday service. My hometown church where I was baptized had a service one Good Friday that was probably the most impactful service I've ever been to. The silence was profound, no song sung other than one very solemn one, the priests kneeled on OUR side of the altar rail the whole time, never crossing over, and the sermon was profound. Then, at the end, when the priest just..walked out...no recession with the cross, no music, just left....it felt so unfinished....and then I realized that was the point. It WAS unfinished. We all sat sort of quietly, and awkwardly, before leaving in silence. 

Some have had weekday Eucharist every morning, some only once on Wednesdays. 

[Starr]

We do all the things, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday, my favorite the Easter Vigil, Easter Day and biblical preaching. We work it all in. 

[Momto6inIN]

IMO, it's the evolution of communities themselves, people becoming more isolated and fragmented and running hither and yon, and then that trickling down into the churches that is the culprit.

In our tight knit Anabaptist church community, we have outside activities of course as well as relationships with other brands of Christians and with non-Christians, but the expectation is that my church *is* my family and where I find my primary social fulfillment. Warts and all 😉

On Sundays we have a morning worship service with the typical singing, prayer, and preaching while the kids ages 3-18 go to Sunday School. Then we have a lunch together (everybody takes turns providing a simple lunch for about 150 people, your turn is about once every 9 months or so) and stand around and talk for an hour or so. Conversation is not stilted because these are my friends, these are the people I talk to and text throughout the week, they are the people we invite to come hang out and play games with us, I know them and their kids and they know me and mine. Then we have an afternoon service that everybody also attends (it's not either the morning or the afternoon, everybody attends both) and we usually stand around talking for a while afterwards too.

We have a baby room with a separate room with recliners for nursing moms and several sleeping rooms with rockers and cribs, but no staffed nursery. Parents take care of their own kids. Babies and toddlers are encouraged to sit in church with their parents but the baby room is there for kids who have trouble (which is just about all of them at some point during the day 😊) During the fellowship hour after lunch babies and toddlers crawl and walk around and get lost in the sea of legs, but I know any one of the adults there love them and are looking out for them. Older kids run around outside the church and climb trees and whisper secrets just like they do at recess at school. In the afternoon service it's very common for kids to sit with their friends and have families mixed up together.

I can't wrap my brain around going to church and worshipping with people and *not* having an intimate family relationship with them.

[marbel]

11 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

IMO, it's the evolution of communities themselves, people becoming more isolated and fragmented and running hither and yon, and then that trickling down into the churches that is the culprit.

In our tight knit Anabaptist church community, we have outside activities of course as well as relationships with other brands of Christians and with non-Christians, but the expectation is that my church *is* my family and where I find my primary social fulfillment. Warts and all 😉

On Sundays we have a morning worship service with the typical singing, prayer, and preaching while the kids ages 3-18 go to Sunday School. Then we have a lunch together (everybody takes turns providing a simple lunch for about 150 people, your turn is about once every 9 months or so) and stand around and talk for an hour or so. Conversation is not stilted because these are my friends, these are the people I talk to and text throughout the week, they are the people we invite to come hang out and play games with us, I know them and their kids and they know me and mine. Then we have an afternoon service that everybody also attends (it's not either the morning or the afternoon, everybody attends both) and we usually stand around talking for a while afterwards too.

We have a baby room with a separate room with recliners for nursing moms and several sleeping rooms with rockers and cribs, but no staffed nursery. Parents take care of their own kids. Babies and toddlers are encouraged to sit in church with their parents but the baby room is there for kids who have trouble (which is just about all of them at some point during the day 😊) During the fellowship hour after lunch babies and toddlers crawl and walk around and get lost in the sea of legs, but I know any one of the adults there love them and are looking out for them. Older kids run around outside the church and climb trees and whisper secrets just like they do at recess at school. In the afternoon service it's very common for kids to sit with their friends and have families mixed up together.

I can't wrap my brain around going to church and worshipping with people and *not* having an intimate family relationship with them.

This is similar to the experience I had - my best church experience ever - when we lived in Oregon. It was a PCA congregation. We didn't eat together every Sunday and there were not two services, but it was very much a church family sort of church. We ate together frequently and there were often lunch plans at peoples' homes on the days when we did not have a group meal. If a family had an emergency they had any number of people they could call on for help, and of course people often offered help. We lived close to the church, and had a big dining/living room area, so we often had church events at our house. 

Kids were welcome in the service and it was obvious that was not just talk; they were truly welcome. It was such a lovely experience and one of the regrets I have about leaving that area as we have never found another church like it. We came close once, but that experience came to a bad end are we are floundering a bit now. 

I found real comfort in knowing that I had a church family to call on - my own family and my husband's are small and far away. And (I'm sure this will sound odd to people) I also knew that if things ever went off the rails with my husband and me, I could call on the pastors/elders of the church for help. As in, if he suddenly started becoming abusive or whatever, they would take him in hand and help me and the kids out of a bad situation. I know that because I saw it more than once. They weren't the kind of places that turned their eyes away from real problems in families and told the women to suck it up and submit. Not that I ever expected that to be needed but it was comforting to have that knowledge.

[ktgrok]

46 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

IMO, it's the evolution of communities themselves, people becoming more isolated and fragmented and running hither and yon, and then that trickling down into the churches that is the culprit.

In our tight knit Anabaptist church community, we have outside activities of course as well as relationships with other brands of Christians and with non-Christians, but the expectation is that my church *is* my family and where I find my primary social fulfillment. Warts and all 😉

On Sundays we have a morning worship service with the typical singing, prayer, and preaching while the kids ages 3-18 go to Sunday School. Then we have a lunch together (everybody takes turns providing a simple lunch for about 150 people, your turn is about once every 9 months or so) and stand around and talk for an hour or so. Conversation is not stilted because these are my friends, these are the people I talk to and text throughout the week, they are the people we invite to come hang out and play games with us, I know them and their kids and they know me and mine. Then we have an afternoon service that everybody also attends (it's not either the morning or the afternoon, everybody attends both) and we usually stand around talking for a while afterwards too.

We have a baby room with a separate room with recliners for nursing moms and several sleeping rooms with rockers and cribs, but no staffed nursery. Parents take care of their own kids. Babies and toddlers are encouraged to sit in church with their parents but the baby room is there for kids who have trouble (which is just about all of them at some point during the day 😊) During the fellowship hour after lunch babies and toddlers crawl and walk around and get lost in the sea of legs, but I know any one of the adults there love them and are looking out for them. Older kids run around outside the church and climb trees and whisper secrets just like they do at recess at school. In the afternoon service it's very common for kids to sit with their friends and have families mixed up together.

I can't wrap my brain around going to church and worshipping with people and *not* having an intimate family relationship with them.

I wonder, is it the sheer amount of time spent together that makes this happen, or just having the expectation? How do we get to this in other churches?

20 minutes ago, marbel said:

This is similar to the experience I had - my best church experience ever - when we lived in Oregon. It was a PCA congregation. We didn't eat together every Sunday and there were not two services, but it was very much a church family sort of church. We ate together frequently and there were often lunch plans at peoples' homes on the days when we did not have a group meal. If a family had an emergency they had any number of people they could call on for help, and of course people often offered help. We lived close to the church, and had a big dining/living room area, so we often had church events at our house. 

Kids were welcome in the service and it was obvious that was not just talk; they were truly welcome. It was such a lovely experience and one of the regrets I have about leaving that area as we have never found another church like it. We came close once, but that experience came to a bad end are we are floundering a bit now. 

I found real comfort in knowing that I had a church family to call on - my own family and my husband's are small and far away. And (I'm sure this will sound odd to people) I also knew that if things ever went off the rails with my husband and me, I could call on the pastors/elders of the church for help. As in, if he suddenly started becoming abusive or whatever, they would take him in hand and help me and the kids out of a bad situation. I know that because I saw it more than once. They weren't the kind of places that turned their eyes away from real problems in families and told the women to suck it up and submit. Not that I ever expected that to be needed but it was comforting to have that knowledge.

Any idea what was different at this church that created this community? Or how to recreate it elsewhere?

[marbel]

28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

<snip>

Any idea what was different at this church that created this community? Or how to recreate it elsewhere?

I think part of it was the pastor - an extrovert who loved nothing more than connecting with people, but who also understood that not everyone was like him.  (I am both shy and introverted.) The elders of the church, and their wives - it was a pretty traditional church (complementarian) but the women were not shoved off to the side - were also very good about welcoming visitors without making them feel like game to be bagged. 

Their attitude toward children, and the parents of children was a big part. When we were new and I was fretting about my kids bothering others with their movements and noises, someone came up to me every week and encouraged me. And of course I could see with my own eyes that other kids were just as restless as mine and no one was glaring at them. The teens were also very kind to the  younger kids and helped out with watching them on the lawn after church. 

The women had a robust ministry with social events and Bible study and they made it easy for me to come in and be quiet for a while. I was extremely uncomfortable with praying aloud in a group for a long time, and was never forced to pray or made to feel uncomfortable for being silent when we had a prayer time. The coffee time was a mix of small talk and people going into other spaces in the church to pray together or talk over problems, and there was always a place for talking about the sermon or other issues. 

I could probably go on and on. It wasn't a perfect church, I don't mean to imply that. But I just felt super comfortable there, was well-taught, well-cared-for... and I also helped care for people, which was important to me to feel like a part of it. I am a person who often feels like an outsider, like I don't fit in anywhere. But I fit in well there.  There have been other churches that were similar, where I felt like family, but nothing quite like that. 

[Faith-manor]

I think the issue of church as community had become problematic. So often it morphs into an unhealthy echo chamber with those who see the problems being cast out, shunned, compelled to leave. We have seen the outcome of echo chambers this year.

I do think that possibly more folks might be more inclined to focus on worship. Around here, worship services are roughly one hour to an hour twenty. Typically, only 15 minutes is devoted to singing, praying, offering, and communion. The rest is entirely being lectured. That isn't very uplifting or helpful for many of the folks I have spoken to. Most are really wounded by how church has become a one man show.

So, just something else to consider. 

[Tap]

I think that creating focus groups that bring people together for comradarie would need to be a priority.

Groups that get together for things like

Sewing

Sports 

Hiking

Cooking

Child centered topics

Teen centered topics

Eldercare centered topics

It goes on and on... Just a reason to join together, learn from eachother, and share of ourselves is a great way to have a church family outside of the sermon. 

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, Momto6inIN said:

IMO, it's the evolution of communities themselves, people becoming more isolated and fragmented and running hither and yon, and then that trickling down into the churches that is the culprit.

In our tight knit Anabaptist church community, we have outside activities of course as well as relationships with other brands of Christians and with non-Christians, but the expectation is that my church *is* my family and where I find my primary social fulfillment. Warts and all 😉

On Sundays we have a morning worship service with the typical singing, prayer, and preaching while the kids ages 3-18 go to Sunday School. Then we have a lunch together (everybody takes turns providing a simple lunch for about 150 people, your turn is about once every 9 months or so) and stand around and talk for an hour or so. Conversation is not stilted because these are my friends, these are the people I talk to and text throughout the week, they are the people we invite to come hang out and play games with us, I know them and their kids and they know me and mine. Then we have an afternoon service that everybody also attends (it's not either the morning or the afternoon, everybody attends both) and we usually stand around talking for a while afterwards too.

We have a baby room with a separate room with recliners for nursing moms and several sleeping rooms with rockers and cribs, but no staffed nursery. Parents take care of their own kids. Babies and toddlers are encouraged to sit in church with their parents but the baby room is there for kids who have trouble (which is just about all of them at some point during the day 😊) During the fellowship hour after lunch babies and toddlers crawl and walk around and get lost in the sea of legs, but I know any one of the adults there love them and are looking out for them. Older kids run around outside the church and climb trees and whisper secrets just like they do at recess at school. In the afternoon service it's very common for kids to sit with their friends and have families mixed up together.

I can't wrap my brain around going to church and worshipping with people and *not* having an intimate family relationship with them.

I definitely experienced the fragmented, isolated culture trickling into the church, especially when my children were young and we were looking for a church home for our family.  There were many things in the culture I wanted my kids to avoid, like recreational (competitive) sports in preschool with parents and coaches yelling.  I wanted my kids to experience a church family night dinner with fun games, sing-a-longs, etc. But, the church slowly eliminated those types of activities; slowly the church eliminated those activities and things like Thursday night basketball in the gym because families were so busy.  

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I definitely experienced the fragmented, isolated culture trickling into the church, especially when my children were young and we were looking for a church home for our family.  There were many things in the culture I wanted my kids to avoid, like recreational (competitive) sports in preschool with parents and coaches yelling.  I wanted my kids to experience a church family night dinner with fun games, sing-a-longs, etc. But, the church slowly eliminated those types of activities; slowly the church eliminated those activities and things like Thursday night basketball in the gym because families were so busy.  

I can understand that. I also noticed locally that there was a movement towards "spirituality" among pastors, and even very popular, well attended activities like family game night or volleyball were eliminated because only bible study, or prayer meeting, or worship were considered worthy of church support. This began back when I was still a Christian and still looking for wholesome activities for my children. We ended up moving into 4H in a very big way, which was really great for my kids, and due to the time involvement as club leaders, dh and I pulled away from all church related functions except Sunday morning.

I think there are a multitude of issues at play, and likely much of it may be regional church culture vs. national.

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I think the issue of church as community had become problematic. So often it morphs into an unhealthy echo chamber with those who see the problems being cast out, shunned, compelled to leave. We have seen the outcome of echo chambers this year.

I do think that possibly more folks might be more inclined to focus on worship. Around here, worship services are roughly one hour to an hour twenty. Typically, only 15 minutes is devoted to singing, praying, offering, and communion. The rest is entirely being lectured. That isn't very uplifting or helpful for many of the folks I have spoken to. Most are really wounded by how church has become a one man show.

So, just something else to consider. 

Hi! Have you been missing awhile or did I just miss seeing you? It’s good to see you around.

[Faith-manor]

20 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Hi! Have you been missing awhile or did I just miss seeing you? It’s good to see you around.

I was gone for two or three years. Can't remember exactly. I am down with a lovely, not fun immune response to my 2nd dose of Moderna. Since I have been lurking just this year for covid info only, I decided to come out of lurking for the weekend. But come Monday, back to work, lawn care for both elderly mothers, the college run to retrieve youngest for the summer, packing for camping, and vanlife. Dh and I converted our Sienna mini-van into a two person camper, and now regularly hit the road to escape all of the pressures of eldercare, his job, traveling to see our grandsons in Huntsville, etc. We have been trying to lead a more unplugged, outdoorsy existence for the past couple of years. It is fun to "see" everyone here, but due to the lifestyle we are trying to cultivate now, I doubt I will be a regular. I miss you all though!

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think this is a problem in churches I've attended. For example the women's group I used to attend felt like they couldn't meet without doing service. We couldn't do a book group with a secular book. It had to be a religious book. 

Eventually it got to the point where most of the women didn't attend the women's group. 

A similar issue is that in liturgical churches, there's the idea that an ordained man has to be in attendance to oversee everything except if it's a woman's only group. But the priest is still supposed to oversee the women's group and approve what we do. It's impossible for him oversee everything so the church doesn't provide the activity. 

 

Wow ya, that would certainly limit everything! The most popular local women's group, prior to the pandemic, was a knitting/crocheting group. It used to meet at a church, but the church decided it wasn't a spiritual activity, so the local yarn shop let them use the store. Very popular. A lot of Christian ladies, including my mother in law, loved it. I think it provided a lot of fellowship, warmth, and support, certainly the women discussed their faith though they were not a nosy, proselytizing bunch, and had non Christian women in the group. But I guess for a lot of church leaders, this was not considered legitimate use of church space.

[Tap]

Thinking about this thread today, makes me reminise about the community orgainzations that seem to  be dwindling over the past 20-30 years. Rotary Club, Lions etc. I know they still exist, but they aren't as prevalent as they were in previous generations. I wonder if those styles of community service could have a place in church buildings and oversite. Not taking over those specific clubs, but ones with a focus on community in which the whole congregation could participate in.