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any one know what protocol is for police and this situation?


ktgrok
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4 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Angry 15 yos are pretty high on my irrational scale. Like, possibly higher than people on mind-altering drugs.

so true, and with zero understanding of the consequences. EVERYTHING is life and death at that age, except actual life and death. 

1 minute ago, Shelydon said:

I watched the whole video, the officer had a completely clear shot.  Someone who has not handled firearms might have missed, but anyone with decent training and regular practice would not have hit the other person. 

 

Unless there is more I didn't see (possible) it looks like a matter of inches separate them, and they are moving. 

That distance, holding still, without adrenaline rushing through you? Sure, I could likely make it, my DH DEFINITELY could make it. Almost definitely my DS could back when he was target shooting regularly. 

But add in people moving unpredictably, and the adrenaline, and the statistics about how often police miss and you still think that is a "completely clear shot"? 

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When I was in nursing school I had a couple different patients bleeding out.  In one situation it was a stabbing victim in the ER, in another it was a person with cancer that broke into their carotid.  A very tiny nick on a major artery and someone can die in far less time than the 6 minutes it took the paramedics to get there. 

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27 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

so true, and with zero understanding of the consequences. EVERYTHING is life and death at that age, except actual life and death. 

Unless there is more I didn't see (possible) it looks like a matter of inches separate them, and they are moving. 

That distance, holding still, without adrenaline rushing through you? Sure, I could likely make it, my DH DEFINITELY could make it. Almost definitely my DS could back when he was target shooting regularly. 

But add in people moving unpredictably, and the adrenaline, and the statistics about how often police miss and you still think that is a "completely clear shot"? 

Yes.  I think it is a completely clear shot.  That is why I said it.  I am a trained firearm instructor, I can make an accurate judgement.

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I watched it in slow motion.  These people didn't care there were multiple cops there.  The dad kicked the head of a woman that was on the ground (very very clear in the released video) just as the 16yo daughter (she was big) whips out her (6 - 8 inches) knife (clear in slow mo) and is in the process  of thrusting towards the neck of the woman she had just pushed against the car. 

If the cop hadn't fired because he was afraid of hitting the woman who was in the process of becoming a stabbing victim, she would have been stabbed - at least once, probably more.

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1 hour ago, MEmama said:

This is the incident in Columbus? The girl who was murdered by the police was the one who called them because she feared for her safety.
 

It’s all too much. 😞 

No, just no. The girl who was shot wasn't "murdered by the police". Watch the whole video. She was the aggressor. When the cop pulled up, everyone was standing in the driveway. After the police arrived, the girl who was shot pushed another girl down (who was then kicked in the head by some guy), went after the other girl, pushed her up against a car, and was just about to stab her with a large knife when the officer shot. All of this happened in TEN SECONDS. Lethal force is met with lethal force and the cop had seconds to make a decision. I'm so sick of seeing comments about tasers and pepper spray. Even if those things worked, the other girl would already have been stabbed. The cop had a clear shot, he took it,and he probably saved the other (unarmed) girl's life. Also, there's no evidence yet that the girl was the one who called the police, but the news doesn't bother to check the facts before they put out the story.

The whole situation is tragic. I think she was a troubled teen who totally lost her temper and wasn't in a mindset to think through consequences. It's still not OK to chase someone with a knife and try to stab them and she needed to be stopped. We want better cops, but we won't get the best people to apply if they think they'll immediately be branded as murderers no matter what they do.

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5 hours ago, MEmama said:

Idk. It doesn’t sound warranted.

Then again, it rarely is. Which is why police is many (most?) western countries aren’t armed. Their freaking job is to literally to protect. How can shooting into that kind of situation possibly be a responsible action? 
 

 

Also in most western countries the criminal isn’t armed with a gun either

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5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I'm not sure what you mean, that it doesn't work? 

Taser won’t necessarily stop her, either.  People can and do keep fighting and running after getting tasered. Both tasing and pepper spray likely would have resulted   In the other girl being stabbed.(our ambulance company is called to evaluate every person who is tasered or pepper sprayed. I see a lot.)

I watched it in slow motion as well.  A 6-8 inch knife is going to be lethal, unless maybe in an extremity. Even then a femoral artery is likely to bleed out quickly.  I had a patient a few years ago who almost bled out in four minutes from a small knife nick to the liver. I personally have had more fatal stabbing patients than gunshot wounds.  Stabbing is very often lethal.

I honestly think it was a no win situation.  My question is what in society can we change to keep 15 year olds from getting to the point they are attempting to stab others? Mental health care, more long term mental health facilities, therapeutic foster care, family support?  Everything about this case is horrible.

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4 hours ago, Katy said:

When I was in nursing school I had a couple different patients bleeding out.  In one situation it was a stabbing victim in the ER, in another it was a person with cancer that broke into their carotid.  A very tiny nick on a major artery and someone can die in far less time than the 6 minutes it took the paramedics to get there. 

And most paramedics in the US cannot carry or use blood products. All we have is saline or lactated ringers which don’t help.

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33 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

onestly think it was a no win situation.  My question is what in society can we change to keep 15 year olds from getting to the point they are attempting to stab others? Mental health care, more long term mental health facilities, therapeutic foster care, family support?  Everything about this case is horrible.

That’s the truth.  Not in a “victim blaming” type way.  It’s just sad that this situation came to be at all.  So much brokenness. 

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I haven’t watched the whole video yet, just a few pics.  But in response to everyone saying that she was only a 15 y/o, is there anyway the officer could have known this from the initial 911 call?  And if she was a more mature looking girl, is there anyway in 10 seconds he could have determined child vs adult in his mind?  Not that it would necessarily matter, I’m just wondering if anyone knows if he had any foreknowledge of this.

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9 minutes ago, stripe said:

I thought the teenager was at home when her home was broken into by several adult women, and she was defending herself.

The articles I have read say they she called the cops bc 2 girls/women(?) had come to her house to fight.  It sounds like teen/high school drama BS that escalated to real world consequences.  No idea if she was home alone or if they were trying to break in to the home or what though.  

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In reading the thread, one piece of information that impacts my opinion is the time--ten seconds. I have more sympathy for the police officer's assessment in light of the knife in motion and the imminent threat in that short space of time. 

I have broken up more than one fight myself, and I have been in volatile situations with dysfunctional people. Since many of my friends are foster parents or social workers, these kinds of topics tend to come up in conversation. In most of the situations I am familiar with, the adult in the room is unarmed and must rely on de-escalation or on some form of physical take-down. I do think those kinds of tools should be used more often, but am willing to consider that those will not work in all situations. 

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For me, this was an illustration of why our very expectations and training of police is all wrong. So often in these situations, we can point to things the police did that went against their own rules or procedures or at least what's considered best policing practices by experts. In this case, the cop did exactly what he was "supposed" to do. And I watch that video and think, this is wrong. There were ways to handle this differently with a better result.

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5 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

No, just no. The girl who was shot wasn't "murdered by the police". Watch the whole video. She was the aggressor. When the cop pulled up, everyone was standing in the driveway. After the police arrived, the girl who was shot pushed another girl down (who was then kicked in the head by some guy), went after the other girl, pushed her up against a car, and was just about to stab her with a large knife when the officer shot. All of this happened in TEN SECONDS. Lethal force is met with lethal force and the cop had seconds to make a decision. I'm so sick of seeing comments about tasers and pepper spray. Even if those things worked, the other girl would already have been stabbed. The cop had a clear shot, he took it,and he probably saved the other (unarmed) girl's life. Also, there's no evidence yet that the girl was the one who called the police, but the news doesn't bother to check the facts before they put out the story.

The whole situation is tragic. I think she was a troubled teen who totally lost her temper and wasn't in a mindset to think through consequences. It's still not OK to chase someone with a knife and try to stab them and she needed to be stopped. We want better cops, but we won't get the best people to apply if they think they'll immediately be branded as murderers no matter what they do.

notice the media doesn't even talk about the girl whose life he *saved*, because she was about to be stabbed in the throat with a big knife.

2 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Also in most western countries the criminal isn’t armed with a gun either

no - they use knives (or other).  and knives are deadly.   in 2019 in the UK - 147 people were murdered with a knife just in London.  - that's dead, injured are not included in that number.

that girl had a big knife - and she was lunging with it at her would be victims throat.

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4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Taser won’t necessarily stop her, either.  People can and do keep fighting and running after getting tasered. Both tasing and pepper spray likely would have resulted   In the other girl being stabbed.(our ambulance company is called to evaluate every person who is tasered or pepper sprayed. I see a lot.)

I watched it in slow motion as well.  A 6-8 inch knife is going to be lethal, unless maybe in an extremity. Even then a femoral artery is likely to bleed out quickly.  I had a patient a few years ago who almost bled out in four minutes from a small knife nick to the liver. I personally have had more fatal stabbing patients than gunshot wounds.  Stabbing is very often lethal.

I honestly think it was a no win situation.  My question is what in society can we change to keep 15 year olds from getting to the point they are attempting to stab others? Mental health care, more long term mental health facilities, therapeutic foster care, family support?  Everything about this case is horrible.

My husband was attacked in February(one month after returning to work after breaking his neck) His head was slammed into a wall. He tazed the guy three times and it had no effect on him. He never pulled his gun, though it would have been justified. Officers have literal seconds to assess a situation and choose a course of action. Love the Monday morning quarterbacks that could do it better.

Edited by AbcdeDooDah
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3 hours ago, stripe said:

I thought the teenager was at home when her home was broken into by several adult women, and she was defending herself.

Even if that is true, the officer would most likely not have that information when dispatched to a call. 

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My husband has been in a knife fight.... he left a bar with friends, a man was beating his girlfriend in an alley, one of his friends accosted the man, the man stabbed his friend twice (I know once in the lung, I think once in the stomach) and also cut his leg.  
 

My husband and his friends tried to get the knife away from this man, but my husband was cut on the hand.  
 

It has left me thinking it is very hard to get a knife away from someone who is willing to stab or cut people with it.  Like — someone is probably going to be stabbed or cut.  
 

My husband could not really see what was happening in the alley (he didn’t go investigate) but his friend said the man had wrapped his girlfriend’s hair around his hand and was slamming her head against a brick wall.  
 

My husband also thought his friend was stabbed twice in an instant, it happened so quickly.  
 

 

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3 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Even if that is true, the officer would most likely not have that information when dispatched to a call. 

Maybe so, but she’s the one who called 911. This is what I heard her aunt Hazel say in a radio interview. (I tried to find this retrospectively, and saw for example this.) I don’t understand why dispatch wouldn’t be told someone is calling in a break in situation etc. At any rate, I am absolutely disgusted by how violent everything turns. Especially when someone is supposedly suicidal, and somehow in response to the idea of protecting that person from self.-harm, the police shoot and kill that same person.

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1 hour ago, stripe said:

Especially when someone is supposedly suicidal, and somehow in response to the idea of protecting that person from self.-harm, the police shoot and kill that same person.

We recently had a case in our area where a suicidal young man was shot and killed by police after an hour of trying for a safe resolution. In the last (I think it was) 10 minutes of video, it looked pretty clear that officers would believe they, and possibly the public, were in life threatening danger.

It’s entirely possible to know that some tragic outcomes are unavoidable, AND there are situations of negligence (individual or systemIc), AND there are acts of murder. While checking for murder and negligence, we’re also going to find unavoidable, tragic incidents.

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3 hours ago, stripe said:

Maybe so, but she’s the one who called 911. This is what I heard her aunt Hazel say in a radio interview. (I tried to find this retrospectively, and saw for example this.) I don’t understand why dispatch wouldn’t be told someone is calling in a break in situation etc. At any rate, I am absolutely disgusted by how violent everything turns. Especially when someone is supposedly suicidal, and somehow in response to the idea of protecting that person from self.-harm, the police shoot and kill that same person.

I understand... I think so many reactions aren’t against police but just about wanting an end to violence. 
 

But, I have to say, it is likely someone was going to get hurt and very likely killed here imminently.  You’re the police officer called to react and protect as best you can. The person in the act of using a knife to slice the throat of another? Yeah, it was his duty to stop it before it happened. He had mere seconds. 

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It would go a long way towards public relations in general if they stopped calling 13 or 15 year old black children men and women while calling 17/18 year old white kids little boys. Even college age adults get called kids if they are white and it just needs to stop. Either everyone over 12 is an adult or everyone under 25 is a kid, they need to pick one and stick to it.  It kind of feels like their implicit bias is showing.  

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19 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

I understand... I think so many reactions aren’t against police but just about wanting an end to violence. 
 

But, I have to say, it is likely someone was going to get hurt and very likely killed here imminently.  You’re the police officer called to react and protect as best you can. The person in the act of using a knife to slice the throat of another? Yeah, it was his duty to stop it before it happened. He had mere seconds. 

I think if this exact thing hadn't happened right almost exactly as the George Floyd verdict was being read it wouldn't be such a big deal.  It also wouldn't be such a big deal if we weren't so used to seeing situations, like the ones we've talked about here, where it's so obvious that the officer acted too quickly and could have slowed down and saved a life.  I'm not mad at this officer, about this situation, as much as I am still mad about Tamir Rice being shot 2 seconds after the cop opened his door etc. etc. This shooting was probably justified, but its being viewed in the shadow cast by the other cases.  Which isn't necessarily fair, but it is human nature.

 

If this kind of shooting was the only police violence problem we had we would be in much better shape as a country.

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Some of you on another thread have said that the police officer that shot an unarmed woman climbing through the window of the Capital Building was completely justified in shooting her in the neck and killing her. On this thread you are now questioning the necessity of the officer shooting a woman trying to stab another woman. It is really unbelievable! I wonder what the girl in pink thinks. Oh and we do already know the police officers identity.

BLM activist Bree Newsome has said about this incident that "Teenagers have been having fights including fights involving knives for eons. We do not need police to address these situations." Valarie Jarrett has issued a similar statement about knife fights and teenagers. So in the future, according to these ladies the police should not respond to knife fight reports, maybe just call a social worker. 

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9 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

While I agree with you, I think it's also important that we not conflate issues.  I haven't seen that ANYONE has done this in this case.  What you say is a problem, but it isn't in this case.  Police have to take every situation on a case by case basis because every situation is different.  If we in the general public are going to discuss issues and problems, I think it's important that we also recognize situations on a case by case basis, otherwise we lose a sense of what the actual problems are.  In this case, the most important thing is that a police officer recognized that a teenage girl's life was in immediate danger and he utilized deadly force to stop the threat.  Yes, one teenage girl lost her life.......but another girl's life was saved. 

The video several posts up has a police officer calling this 15 year old a woman.  And I’m not talking about police in the moment, I’m talking about the police making videos, like the one here, the ones talking to journalists.  They all have time to prep themselves to call children children. It’s part of public relations. 

Edited by HeartString
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10 hours ago, Farrar said:

For me, this was an illustration of why our very expectations and training of police is all wrong. So often in these situations, we can point to things the police did that went against their own rules or procedures or at least what's considered best policing practices by experts. In this case, the cop did exactly what he was "supposed" to do. And I watch that video and think, this is wrong. There were ways to handle this differently with a better result.

If you had someone with a large knife charging you, or your spouse or your children, what would you have preferred the officer to have done in this situation? What would have been the better result? The other person to be murdered by an adult sized 15 year old? 

London has some quite serious issues with stabbings in the last several years which shows that being stabbed is often quite fatal. Officers are typically unarmed (unless they are AFOs) in most cases and this has not necessarily worked well for knifing victims around the area. It is quite difficult to stop a determined person with a knife with anything except a firearm. 

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18 minutes ago, Holmesschooler said:

If you had someone with a large knife charging you, or your spouse or your children, what would you have preferred the officer to have done in this situation? What would have been the better result? The other person to be murdered by an adult sized 15 year old? 

London has some quite serious issues with stabbings in the last several years which shows that being stabbed is often quite fatal. Officers are typically unarmed (unless they are AFOs) in most cases and this has not necessarily worked well for knifing victims around the area. It is quite difficult to stop a determined person with a knife with anything except a firearm. 

Kind of nit-picky, but I doubt police are present for the vast majority of  knife attacks, either in London or in the US. You can’t really say that unarmed police aren’t able to stop stabbing when they aren’t present in the first place.  

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5 hours ago, stripe said:

Maybe so, but she’s the one who called 911. This is what I heard her aunt Hazel say in a radio interview. (I tried to find this retrospectively, and saw for example this.) I don’t understand why dispatch wouldn’t be told someone is calling in a break in situation etc. At any rate, I am absolutely disgusted by how violent everything turns. Especially when someone is supposedly suicidal, and somehow in response to the idea of protecting that person from self.-harm, the police shoot and kill that same person.

she went outside - she was physically fighting with the girl even after the police arrived.  she chased after and threw the girl against a car, while holding a knife and was about to stab her in the throat - in front of the police.  if she really was the one to call police - she should have stayed in the house after the others were outside, and most dispatchers would have told her that.  but she followed her outside with a big knife and she was prepared to use it with deadly force - in front of the police.  she should have stood back after the cops arrived and allowed them to sort it out.  but she didn't, and moved with force to stab the other girl.

she wasn't a petite 15yo - she was a big girl.

 

 

 

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I will start by saying I am pro-police. My nephew is a police officer. I am NOT pro violence or pro racist or anything like that. There are a lot of bad, very bad cops out there that should be fired. But there are a LOT of really good cops. 

I saw the video below once, and I think it makes a good point of putting yourself in the shoes of an officer and what it takes to make split second decisions. 

The title says what it is: "Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios" -- I think it always comes down to this .... walk a mile in someone's shoes (whether it is a police officer or a young black man being a victim of racial profiling) before casting stones.

I read a case where a criminal had stolen a taser off of a police officer and was running away. The officer shot him. People were outraged, and said things like "They knew where the criminal lived -- why didn't they just go to his house and get the taser back?!" It's mentality like this that makes me shake my head. You just don't know how you would react or what you would feel until you are the person in the situation.

It's a very eye opening video. It shows how quickly things escalate.

 

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The problem here is a blindness to the concept of a systemic problem. When you have a systemic problem, the system in the problem is broken specifically because the protocols of the  system should not be whatever they are. 
 

The systemic problem of cop shootings is not whether each shot was clear enough. 

The systemic problem of cop shootings is that they seem to be trained to be reflexive shooters to the point of not having training in policing or enforcement.

Why didn’t he taser her? Why didn’t he take a well placed baton to her back or shoulder? Because it was NOT protocol. Because he likely has little training and even less quality gear to give him the confidence that he can handle that situation but he does have a gun. 

The problem is not what is the protocol.

The problem is what is the protocol isn’t.

In his shoes in similar scenario - I’d probably have shot her too.

But what makes it awful is not that. It’s that we should all know by now that we do not have to keep putting cops in that situation. With better training and gear, they don’t shoot nearly as much bc they have other options to deal with situations like this.  

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20 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Kind of nit-picky, but I doubt police are present for the vast majority of  knife attacks, either in London or in the US. You can’t really say that unarmed police aren’t able to stop stabbing when they aren’t present in the first place.  

Obviously it is a moot point if police are not present? I am not sure what your point is. Why would anyone be discussing when police are not present? 

I am referring instead to incidences like the following. Alternative force did not work and they had to resort to gunshot to end the situation. Officers in the UK also wear knife proof vests. Is that the case in America? Do all officers in the US wear vests at all time? 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-53222031

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-police-shoot-knife-wielding-man-dead-london-69479788

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A clear shot seems to be used as a synonym for guaranteed shot. There is no such thing as a guaranteed shot when there are moving hostile targets. There just isn’t. Even for a professional sharp shooter.  Life is not as seen on tv.  I *think* last I checked on the data, the odds of a professional sharp shooter missing a moving target is anywhere from 20- 40% pending the type of moving target situation. Now 60-80% success is pretty darn good for a moving target but still doesn’t change the miss rate.  And it would sure super suck to be the unlucky person the shot wrongly ends up hitting. 

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1 hour ago, HeartString said:

The video several posts up has a police officer calling this 15 year old a woman.  And I’m not talking about police in the moment, I’m talking about the police making videos, like the one here, the ones talking to journalists.  They all have time to prep themselves to call children children. It’s part of public relations. 

He also called her a girl in the next sentence. The bigger point is an officer does not generally not know details like age in a situation like this. 

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6 hours ago, stripe said:

Maybe so, but she’s the one who called 911. This is what I heard her aunt Hazel say in a radio interview. (I tried to find this retrospectively, and saw for example this.) I don’t understand why dispatch wouldn’t be told someone is calling in a break in situation etc. At any rate, I am absolutely disgusted by how violent everything turns. Especially when someone is supposedly suicidal, and somehow in response to the idea of protecting that person from self.-harm, the police shoot and kill that same person.

Investigators have not determined who made the 911 calls yet. 

https://www.10tv.com/mobile/video/news/local/police-ohio-bci-to-investigate-who-made-911-calls-as-part-of-makhia-bryant-investigation/530-d6e9d2a7-ed1d-4432-9954-e0c020db56b6

If dispatch relayed the info that someone is trying to stab people and he arrives on scene and sees someone trying to stab people it is reasonable that he would believe that he had the right person. He has to rely on what he mows at the time, which is not who called, the age of people, etc.

Edited by AbcdeDooDah
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37 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

The problem here is a blindness to the concept of a systemic problem. When you have a systemic problem, the system in the problem is broken specifically because the protocols of the  system should not be whatever they are. 
 

The systemic problem of cop shootings is not whether each shot was clear enough. 

The systemic problem of cop shootings is that they seem to be trained to be reflexive shooters to the point of not having training in policing or enforcement.

Why didn’t he taser her? Why didn’t he take a well placed baton to her back or shoulder? Because it was NOT protocol. Because he likely has little training and even less quality gear to give him the confidence that he can handle that situation but he does have a gun. 

The problem is not what is the protocol.

The problem is what is the protocol isn’t.

In his shoes in similar scenario - I’d probably have shot her too.

But what makes it awful is not that. It’s that we should all know by now that we do not have to keep putting cops in that situation. With better training and gear, they don’t shoot nearly as much bc they have other options to deal with situations like this.  

Batons are not standard procedure in many many many jurisdictions anyone.

One of the big reasons why is due to the Rodney King beating. Baton use was part of LAPDs escalating use of force at the time. To the point that when one officer heard there was video thought it could be used as a training video bc it followed protocol, in that officer’s opinion.

someone also mentioned using water hose in this thread...uh, no. Maybe do some research on that one.

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13 hours ago, stripe said:

I thought the teenager was at home when her home was broken into by several adult women, and she was defending herself.

Regardless of what was happening before the cops showed up, once they were there, within ten seconds the girl was trying to stab the woman in pink instead of running to the cops for safety. (ETA: Okay, maybe running to them could be seen as a threat. In any case, she didn't do anything to indicate that she wasn't the violent one.)

12 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

notice the media doesn't even talk about the girl whose life he *saved*, because she was about to be stabbed in the throat with a big knife.

no - they use knives (or other).  and knives are deadly.   in 2019 in the UK - 147 people were murdered with a knife just in London.  - that's dead, injured are not included in that number.

that girl had a big knife - and she was lunging with it at her would be victims throat.

I saw a number somewhere today that said 10% of US murder victims die from stabbings. 

56 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Why didn’t he take a well placed baton to her back or shoulder?

I watched the video 5-6 times, mostly at half-speed. The entire incident took ten seconds. I'd estimate the cop was about 15-20 feet away when the girl was about to stab the woman in pink. There was no time for him to get to her before she plunged that knife into the woman. I think many people are underestimating how deadly knives are and how quickly someone can be stabbed repeatedly with them.

Edited by JumpyTheFrog
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I wonder what she was thinking. If the family is right & she’s the one who called police, why leave the safety of your house and go try to murder someone in front of a cop? There are zero ways for that to end well. 15 year olds are really stupid. 

Edited by Katy
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25 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I think if we start to presume that every police officer involved shooting is a part of the problem, I think we are going to lose sight of what the actual problem is.  This officer used deadly force to end the immediate danger to another person.  We as a society have determined that defense of the life of an individual is a situation where deadly force is an appropriate course of action, therefore, this police officer took the appropriate course of action. 

Speaking only for myself, I presume every police shooting needs a transparent investigation. Nothing about that says all shootings are unjustified. That’s how you IDENTIFY the problems. No room for rug sweeping when all incidents are examined. 

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5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Speaking only for myself, I presume every police shooting needs a transparent investigation. Nothing about that says all shootings are unjustified. That’s how you IDENTIFY the problems. No room for rug sweeping when all incidents are examined. 

That’s what’s happening here.  I don’t know if that’s how Ohio handles all police shootings but that’s the way Florida handles all of them. Which is probably why the controversial Florida ones are always involving crazy people or wannabe cops and not police themselves. 

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Two neighbors who witnessed this have come forward and said the police did what had to be done.  One is a military vet, lives across the street, and turned over his surveillance footage.  (clearly shows the whole thing.)

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Re: What was she thinking? why didn't she stay in the house? Why did she continue to pursue after the cops are on the scene, if she was the original victim?

I know we here on a forum literally called Well Trained Mind probably want to believe we can be rational in all situations. But, once our lower survival brain takes over there isn't a way to really rationalize with it quickly. She may not have even seen the police even if her eyes fell on them, she may not have heard anything other than her own breathing. Tunnel vision and berserker rage are real things and just because we like to wear nice clothes and drink Starbucks doesn't stop us from being actual humans. 

It is a tragedy in every way. I'm sorry for her (especially if she was the original victim) that she was in the situation, she responded as was literally natural for her. I'm sorry for the officer put into the situation and had to protect others from her. But his job is to protect the public at large, and by the point he arrived he had to protect the current person in danger, not the first person. 

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9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Two neighbors who witnessed this have come forward and said the police did what had to be done.  One is a military vet, lives across the street, and turned over his surveillance footage.  (clearly shows the whole thing.)

For my part, I think I’ve been persuaded that there wasn’t anything else he could have done.  He was too far away to have realistically attempted to wrestle the knife away.  I think I’ve heard enough about tasers and mace to think they would not have been effective.  

Edited by HeartString
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I really don't know what to think of this case (and as I've gotten older I've tried to be less quick to have an opinion on everything and to spend more time listening and thinking and keeping my mouth shut), but someone on twitter pointed out that Ohio is a stand your ground state (and just this month expanded the law), so if the girl who was killed did believe she was acting in self defense and that the other people were the aggressors, then she was in the clear legally if she HAD stabbed anyone, right? The burden would be on the prosecution to prove that she WASN'T defending herself. 

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3 minutes ago, kokotg said:

but someone on twitter pointed out that Ohio is a stand your ground state (and just this month expanded the law), so if the girl who was killed did believe she was acting in self defense

When DH watched the video in slow-motion, he thought the woman in pink was holding a small dog that she dropped right before the girl tried to stab her. I don't know what happened with other people before the cops showed up, but someone standing holding a small dog (if that's what it was) doesn't seem like much of a threat.

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6 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I really don't know what to think of this case (and as I've gotten older I've tried to be less quick to have an opinion on everything and to spend more time listening and thinking and keeping my mouth shut), but someone on twitter pointed out that Ohio is a stand your ground state (and just this month expanded the law), so if the girl who was killed did believe she was acting in self defense and that the other people were the aggressors, then she was in the clear legally if she HAD stabbed anyone, right? The burden would be on the prosecution to prove that she WASN'T defending herself. 

Stand your ground laws are a while other issue.  Ugh. 

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6 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I really don't know what to think of this case (and as I've gotten older I've tried to be less quick to have an opinion on everything and to spend more time listening and thinking and keeping my mouth shut), but someone on twitter pointed out that Ohio is a stand your ground state (and just this month expanded the law), so if the girl who was killed did believe she was acting in self defense and that the other people were the aggressors, then she was in the clear legally if she HAD stabbed anyone, right? The burden would be on the prosecution to prove that she WASN'T defending herself. 

Stand your ground doesn’t mean the body count won’t be much higher. It just means you can’t go to prison for killing if a jury agrees you had a reasonable belief your or someone else’s life was in imminent danger and you don’t have a duty to retreat before fighting back.  

This kind of thing always makes me wish I was a pacifist. Sometimes there isn’t a right answer, there’s only a least wrong in the moment answer.

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6 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I really don't know what to think of this case (and as I've gotten older I've tried to be less quick to have an opinion on everything and to spend more time listening and thinking and keeping my mouth shut), but someone on twitter pointed out that Ohio is a stand your ground state (and just this month expanded the law), so if the girl who was killed did believe she was acting in self defense and that the other people were the aggressors, then she was in the clear legally if she HAD stabbed anyone, right? The burden would be on the prosecution to prove that she WASN'T defending herself. 

Most “stand your ground” laws would not be in play if the stand-your-grounder is chasing the person with a weapon.

there can a point where the person stops defending himself, and starts being the aggressor.

disclaimer: I haven’t read the Ohio law so if I’m wrong, let me know

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