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Colleges requiring covid vaccine to live on campus


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9 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure who has the mindset that "most college kids in Texas will forge it."  I certainly don't have that mindset.  I think most young people will choose to be vaccinated.  I do not think asking people to show a paper card that is easily reproducible is going to increase vaccination rates.  I think that applies to other parts of the country as well as Texas.  

Do you have a better idea? Sincerely asking what would be better. 

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Welcome to this homeschool forum, brand new member. You will find many of your questions discussed in great detail in the long general coronavirus and vaccine threads. I will give your post the b

The college where I teach announced this morning that we are at 69% faculty and staff and 68% of students who have received at least one shot.  Also that the random testing for last week had zero posi

A lot of the anti-vaccine folks are saying that because it's emergency use, that they can't require it. But the Pfizer will be fully approved before long and the others will follow. Assuming colleges

9 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I do not think asking people to show a paper card that is easily reproducible is going to increase vaccination rates.

Okay. 

Does that mean you would be on board with a more closely controlled, centralized registry? 

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Do you have a better idea? Sincerely asking what would be better. 

I actually think going with a passport system like other countries are using, where you have the barcode or whatever that can be scanned on your phone would be most secure and accurate, and allow someone to just display green or red status without having to disclose if they actually got vaccinated or if they have a waiver. But, some people were upset about that idea, so I don’t think it’s going to happen. I actually think it would’ve allowed for more privacy, for the reason just given.

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6 hours ago, TexasProud said:

So far, other than my children, I do not know of any young adults/ older teens that are vaccinated.  Everyone that I know that is vaccinated is 50 or older. 

And what I witnessed with driver’s ed .... Oh my goodness.  I know TONS of parents who created and signed a log, but didnt actually do it.  None of my close friends at the time, but still probably 10 or more parents that I knew of.  My daughter is taking an online pe class this summer.  She will be doing it, but she knows many people that just faked that log.  As Bootsie said, these cards are easy to fake. It will happen. The logic will be that it is a stupid requirement and kids don’t get sick anyway.  I know, please do not give me all your proof.  I know that is not true.  My town has not been affected much at all and still believes the shut downs were overkill. 

You can find shut downs overkill and still not be a liar. I guess that is what I'm finding frustrating. The vast amount of Americans that simply have zero morals. I find it sad. 

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55 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure who has the mindset that "most college kids in Texas will forge it."  I certainly don't have that mindset.  I think most young people will choose to be vaccinated.  I do not think asking people to show a paper card that is easily reproducible is going to increase vaccination rates.  I think that applies to other parts of the country as well as Texas.  

I'm going to disagree. My guess is there are people who will get the vaccine no matter what. There are people who will get it if required but might not have bothered otherwise or don't really want to but will comply and then there are the liars who would forge documentation. 

I can't help but think there are more in group 2 then in group 3 but maybe that is wishful thinking. 

I argued against a mask mandate but was surprised at the number of people who complied when in grocery stores etc. It changed from (this is just an estimate from my own shopping experience) 5% wearing a mask to about 90%-95%.  

I know a number of people who don't want their children to get it but wouldn't stoop to lying. They would be more likely to not attend than to lie. Now I realize my experience is not representative of the population but I think they aren't super strange outliers either.

 

 

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

We don't have anywhere yet asking for proof, so I don'tknow what type of proof they are asking for, at this point. It all seems theoretical so far?

A PP mentioned that proof of vaccination, previous COVID infection, or a negative test was required for her child's graduation.  Oracle Park and Citi Field are requiring proof for entry.  Massachusetts was requiring quarantine unless proof of vaccine.  And, if some universities are requiring all students to be vaccinated within the next three months, I suppose that they are telling people what will be considered proof.  So no, it doesn't seem theoretical.   

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5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

A PP mentioned that proof of vaccination, previous COVID infection, or a negative test was required for her child's graduation.  Oracle Park and Citi Field are requiring proof for entry.  Massachusetts was requiring quarantine unless proof of vaccine.  And, if some universities are requiring all students to be vaccinated within the next three months, I suppose that they are telling people what will be considered proof.  So no, it doesn't seem theoretical.   

Fair enough. I should have realized that I wouldn't have much grasp on this, given Florida won't have any requirements, for anything. 

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Do you have a better idea? Sincerely asking what would be better. 

If you want to have something that is official it should have an official stamp, signature, number, be on paper that is not easily duplicated, or something similar.  They should also not be something that someone can just request another copy of, resulting in multiple equally valid cards floating around. The cards that are being given out were meant to be appointment reminder cards, not official government immunization documents.   

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1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

If you want to have something that is official it should have an official stamp, signature, number, be on paper that is not easily duplicated, or something similar.  They should also not be something that someone can just request another copy of, resulting in multiple equally valid cards floating around. The cards that are being given out were meant to be appointment reminder cards, not official government immunization documents.   

???

So you don't think people should be allowed to have multiple copies of their birth certificate? At any given time when my boys were younger we'd have two or three certified copies, because we were always needing one for something. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Fair enough. I should have realized that I wouldn't have much grasp on this, given Florida won't have any requirements, for anything. 

Well, but schools will still have to follow department of health guidelines for quarantines in the fall, though. This is where I can see people having issues even in states where colleges and schools don’t require vaccination. People that are vaccinated and exposed, with no symptoms, do not have to quarantine, but those students that are not vaccinated are still going to be stuck at home for 7 or 10 days after an exposure on campus.

I think that reminding college students of that will incentivize some of them to be vaccinated that otherwise wouldn’t, and some parents of teens, too. Quarantining this year has been very disruptive for those that have attended school or college, and a lot of folks will be motivated to avoid another year like that.

Edited by Penelope
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If you want to have something that is official it should have an official stamp, signature, number, be on paper that is not easily duplicated, or something similar.  They should also not be something that someone can just request another copy of, resulting in multiple equally valid cards floating around. The cards that are being given out were meant to be appointment reminder cards, not official government immunization documents.   

You realize I can request copies of all of my records, right? I can even request multiple copies of the same document at the same time. Birth certificates, marriage certificates, my parents death certificates. Every single copy has an official seal on it. I can also get a duplicate drivers license or a duplicate passport if I jump through the right hoops. 
 

No, the intent was not an appointment reminder card. There’s nothing on the card about future appointments. The point of the card is to provide documentation of your vaccine. 
 

ETA: I just turned my card over and saw the appointment reminder side. Didn’t know that was there. That isn’t the primary purpose of the card though. It’s purpose is to provide me with a vaccine record. 

Edited by TechWife
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1 hour ago, Innisfree said:

Okay. 

Does that mean you would be on board with a more closely controlled, centralized registry? 

If as a society we decide that it is important to know who is and isn't vaccinated and want people to show proof of that they are vaccinated, I think that we should have a more official way of doing that.  We don't tell people who have passed a driving test to write their name on a card that simply has the date they took the test and a few letters showing the location and then call that proof.  I think that there are really two issues--one: whether there is a controlled, centralized registry so that there is a comprehensive list of who has and has not been vaccinated and two:  whether there is a method in place for people to quicky and easily provide official documentation that they have been vaccinated.  

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8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If you want to have something that is official it should have an official stamp, signature, number, be on paper that is not easily duplicated, or something similar.  They should also not be something that someone can just request another copy of, resulting in multiple equally valid cards floating around. The cards that are being given out were meant to be appointment reminder cards, not official government immunization documents.   

My card has my personal info, vaccine lot#s, dates received, mystery official numbers, a bar code and nurses signatures, in addition to other info. It is an official CDC card, not a reminder card.

It’s weird but not surprising to me that some state governments would choose to not provide such simple official records. 

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11 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

???So you don't think people should be allowed to have multiple copies of their birth certificate? At any given time when my boys were younger we'd have two or three certified copies, because we were always needing one for something. 

No, I am not saying that people should be able to have multiplie copies of their birth certificate.  Most places that are going to require a birth certificate are also going to require some other form of ID and there is more official information on a birth certificate.  

What I do not see much purpose of is John Smith being able to get multiple copies of a card that simply says John Smith with a date of birth of 1/1/68 got a vaccine on 3/8/21 at ABC--with all of that handwritten and no signature or photo or anything.  How many John Smiths are going to be floating around out there.  

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1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

there are really two issues--one: whether there is a controlled, centralized registry so that there is a comprehensive list of who has and has not been vaccinated and two:  whether there is a method in place for people to quicky and easily provide official documentation that they have been vaccinated

The second requires the first, doesn't it? At least on a state level?

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If as a society we decide that it is important to know who is and isn't vaccinated and want people to show proof of that they are vaccinated, I think that we should have a more official way of doing that. 

I'm completely on board with that. But I'm not sure everyone is (I.e., I know they aren't). A huge current beneath all the pandemic-related controversies has been the tension between the need for central guidelines and decisions, otoh, and the suspicion about anything resembling centralized control oto. I mean-- you're in Texas. You know this. So, how does that get resolved?

I do hope that at some stage, we'll get those official cards showing vaccination. But do you think folks around you will welcome them? 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

No, I am not saying that people should be able to have multiplie copies of their birth certificate.  Most places that are going to require a birth certificate are also going to require some other form of ID and there is more official information on a birth certificate.  

What I do not see much purpose of is John Smith being able to get multiple copies of a card that simply says John Smith with a date of birth of 1/1/68 got a vaccine on 3/8/21 at ABC--with all of that handwritten and no signature or photo or anything.  How many John Smiths are going to be floating around out there.  

I can get copies of all of my medical records. By law, they are available to me for the asking. Proof of vaccine is a medical record and is available for the asking. I can then give that information to anyone I want to give it to. There is no reason why John Smith shouldn’t have multiple copies of proof of vaccine if he wants them. 
 

ETA - legally, someone would have to provide proof that it is detrimental to John Smith to have access to his medical records as often as he want to have that access. Access cannot be limited. 

Edited by TechWife
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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

If as a society we decide that it is important to know who is and isn't vaccinated and want people to show proof of that they are vaccinated, I think that we should have a more official way of doing that.  We don't tell people who have passed a driving test to write their name on a card that simply has the date they took the test and a few letters showing the location and then call that proof.  I think that there are really two issues--one: whether there is a controlled, centralized registry so that there is a comprehensive list of who has and has not been vaccinated and two:  whether there is a method in place for people to quicky and easily provide official documentation that they have been vaccinated.  

My state has a vaccine registry and there is incorrect information re: one vaccine for one of my children. The pediatrician’s office said there is nothing they can do even though it does conflict with other printed records they have, because it is very difficult to correct something in that system and they were not the ones that made the mistake. I do not know how common this is but know one person with a similar issue. 

So while I see the problems with a paper system, I also see that there can be problems with an electronic system. Since it isn’t likely there would be a federal vaccine database, it will depend on the state, and states will have various degrees of competency when it comes to these things. With mass vaccination among thousands of different providers, some number of mistakes would be made in entering the information. So in this situation, I am still happy to have a card, even if it were just a backup to an electronic database. 
 

And I don’t think we would want a federal database. Can you imagine trying to get anything corrected there? It would be, call this number, wait on hold forever, and end up frustrated. 

Edited by Penelope
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I have a feeling that for this first round of needing to show proof, both institutions and people will just do the best they can and it will require some trust and yes probably some people will get away with forging things.  Hopefully the majority will be honest.

But as time goes on, and if yearly boosters are required, I imagine a system will be developed where they can be officially and centrally recorded and easily accessed by institutions that need them.

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6 minutes ago, Penelope said:

So while I see the problems with a paper system, I also see that there can be problems with an electronic system. Since it isn’t likely there would be a federal vaccine database, it will depend on the state, and states will have various degrees of competency when it comes to these things. With mass vaccination among thousands of different providers, some number of mistakes would be made in entering the information. So in this situation, I am still happy to have a card, even if it were just a backup to an electronic database. 
 

I think this is going to be a case of not letting perfect be the enemy of good right now. 
 

8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

And I don’t think we would want a federal database. Can you imagine trying to get anything corrected there? It would be, call this number, wait on hold forever, and end up frustrated. 

I agree this is how it would go. Isn’t there a way that the current state databases talk to each other? It seems most appropriate that that would still happen with this. So the state would maintain the database, but there would be some kind of national system for verification across state lines.

 

9 minutes ago, J-rap said:

 

I have a feeling that for this first round of needing to show proof, both institutions and people will just do the best they can and it will require some trust and yes probably some people will get away with forging things.  Hopefully the majority will be honest.

But as time goes on, and if yearly boosters are required, I imagine a system will be developed where they can be officially and centrally recorded and easily accessed by institutions that need them.

 

I agree completely with all of this. 

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32 minutes ago, MEmama said:

My card has my personal info, vaccine lot#s, dates received, mystery official numbers, a bar code and nurses signatures, in addition to other info. It is an official CDC card, not a reminder card.

It’s weird but not surprising to me that some state governments would choose to not provide such simple official records. 

What is meant by an "official CDC card"?  It is my understanding that cards were sent in kits (along with syringes, etc.) to vaccination clinics, but card templates were also sent so that places could print off more cards.  I do not see how something placed on a card using that template makes something an official record.  Especially if the CDC does not have standardized, required information (e.g. is it a vaccine clinic name or a provider's signature on the card?) I don't see how it is really an official CDC card--it is a card that has the official CDC logo printed on it.

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37 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I have a feeling that for this first round of needing to show proof, both institutions and people will just do the best they can and it will require some trust and yes probably some people will get away with forging things.  Hopefully the majority will be honest.

But as time goes on, and if yearly boosters are required, I imagine a system will be developed where they can be officially and centrally recorded and easily accessed by institutions that need them.

I agree with you.  I just think this fall will be a mess for those who require proof.  I foresee a lot of issues and viral videos. Both sides making their extreme cases and saying how awful the other side is.  Just terrible. 

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5 hours ago, TexasProud said:

What is a vaccine charge number?  

sorry, American word would be "Lot" number.

My card has a printed sticker that contains: vaccine name, 6 digit lot number + expiration date, date administered, hospital name.

My vaccination booklet has the lot numbers for the vaccines, either written, but often the pull-off sticker that was on the ampule

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2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

No, I am not saying that people should be able to have multiplie copies of their birth certificate.  Most places that are going to require a birth certificate are also going to require some other form of ID and there is more official information on a birth certificate.  

What I do not see much purpose of is John Smith being able to get multiple copies of a card that simply says John Smith with a date of birth of 1/1/68 got a vaccine on 3/8/21 at ABC--with all of that handwritten and no signature or photo or anything.  How many John Smiths are going to be floating around out there.  

But if someone other than John Smith gets ahold of of one of those copies, he would also need ID that matches it. Unless it is in the proper name, it won't matter. 

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52 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But if someone other than John Smith gets ahold of of one of those copies, he would also need ID that matches it. Unless it is in the proper name, it won't matter. 

If someone is just asking for a card at an entrance of a stadium, graduation, concert hall, are they going to take the time to check each card and make sure that it matches a picture ID and the person holding the card?    And there are some very common names that tend to run in families in the area where I am.  

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

sorry, American word would be "Lot" number.

My card has a printed sticker that contains: vaccine name, 6 digit lot number + expiration date, date administered, hospital name.

My vaccination booklet has the lot numbers for the vaccines, either written, but often the pull-off sticker that was on the ampule

My card has hand-written the vaccine name and a 7-digit lot number, date administered, and three letters representing the location of where the vaccine was given

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When I took my oldest to get their second vaccination, we realized in the car on the way there that 1) their vaccination card had the wrong middle initial, and 2) it had their date of birth being their correct month and date of birth but in the year 2026.  (They were not born in 2006.  It was very clearly a 2.)  The information was handwritten by a professional at the first vaccine clinic.  So, we took it to the check in window and explained, and the nurse was like, "Oh yeah, that happens all the time."  And she made us a new one, copying the info from the first card onto the second one.  We have a sticker for the official information from the second vaccine but just handwritten stuff pertaining to the first vaccine.  

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1 hour ago, regentrude said:

sorry, American word would be "Lot" number.

My card has a printed sticker that contains: vaccine name, 6 digit lot number + expiration date, date administered, hospital name.

My vaccination booklet has the lot numbers for the vaccines, either written, but often the pull-off sticker that was on the ampule

I dont have any of that for any vaccines on my shot record. Just a list of shots. And not even that for my childhood shots.

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As far as I am aware, my state has no state record of vaccinations.

Whenever I need to produce proof of vaccination for my kids for school, I give the school a paper copy of their shot record, which their pediatrician prints out for us. The only thing official about it is that they rubber stamp it with the office contact information. Last fall, my kids got their flu vaccinations at the grocery store, rather than at the doctor's office, and the pediatric nurse just asked me where they had that vaccine and typed it into their computer record, based on what I told them verbally. When we moved and switched pediatricians years ago, we gave the new doctor's office a physical pile of papers that was their medical record from their old office, and they retyped all of the kids' vaccination records into their own computer system, so that all of the shots are listed on one form, even though half of them were done by a different doctor.

There really doesn't seem to be a state standard. The form from the first pediatrician looked very different than the system that the new pediatrician uses.

I have no paper copies of my own vaccination record. My mom had a little handwritten card, that I think may be in my baby book, which is probably in a box somewhere, but not in my house, so I don't have a copy of it at all. I just switched doctors, and yesterday they asked me if I remembered when I got my last tetanus shot, and just gave me a new one, on my say-so about it being needed (I remember clearly getting the last one, and it was more than 10 years ago). That shot will be in my medical records, and they said they had my Covid vaccine listed, but they don't have a history of my other shots, at all. I don't think my last doctor gave me any vaccines, so they wouldn't have any records (though I did give my new doctor written permission to request old medical records). Both my pediatrician's office and the first doctor's office that I used when I was a young adult went out of business, and I have no idea how I would get those medical records, as nothing was digitized back then.

I think this is really common for people who started getting medical care before records could be digitized.

 

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My daughter's college will not likely require the Covid vaccine, though I wish they would. She has had it, anyway. Their campus health center will note the students who have had the vaccine, so that they don't need to quarantine any more. DD has not done this yet and is now home for the summer, so I don't know how it will work next year. But I assume she will just show them a copy of her vaccination card. Her campus did not even ask for any official vaccination record whatsoever, and she was just asked to fill out the dates of her vaccinations by hand on a piece of paper. I was surprised by that. I actually had a copy of her vaccination record for her to turn in, but she didn't need to.

For my kids' high school, we sent a photo of their vaccination cards, and the school nurse added them to their files, so that they won't have to quarantine any more if exposed. That photo was all that we needed for proof.

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16 hours ago, Bootsie said:

.We don't tell people who have passed a driving test to write their name on a card that simply has the date they took the test and a few letters showing the location and then call that proof. 

When my college-age DD was going through driver's ed here, they gave each kid a little card with their name on it & the date they passed the driving test (given by the driver's ed people). Depending on what provisional license each kid had, that was their proof of passing. If you had that, you didn't have to take the tests at the dmv. Some kids had their record of passing entered electronically if they were already "in the system," but ... yeah, a little card with their name on it as proof of passing the written & driving test was exactly what it was. Lol.

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16 hours ago, Bootsie said:

We don't tell people who have passed a driving test to write their name on a card that simply has the date they took the test and a few letters showing the location and then call that proof.  I think that there are really two issues--one: whether there is a controlled, centralized registry so that there is a comprehensive list of who has and has not been vaccinated and two:  whether there is a method in place for people to quicky and easily provide official documentation that they have been vaccinated.  

Here in my state when you renew your license you get a printout--and IME it's frequently not a good print, so often hard to read--that pretty much is the same as the bolded. That's your only physical proof of timely driver's license renewal until your real one comes in the mail, a week (or sometimes a few weeks) later. But in that instance there is a controlled, centralized registry. Any LEO can look you up and see whether your pitiful, poorly printed sheet is legit or not.

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Posted (edited)

I haven't read all this thread yet, but one of mine got their first shot, but the name on their vaccine card is NOT their name. No need to show ID when they showed up, and it sounds like selecting the autofill option to fill in the address caused the issue. They didn't take care of it right away and were told to just get it corrected when they showed up for the second one.  One family member forget their vaccine card when they showed up for the second shot, and the place happily issued another card for them. So, I'm not really sure any vaccine card is worth much as real proof of anything.  

I'm in TX, and we have available exemptions for vaccines for college (usually only meningitis is required, but a few require TB as well). I do not agree with the requirement to have the vaccine. The nurses I know here have told me (in the past) that the hospitals require them to have the flu shot every year. If they don't, they have to wear a mask the entire time at work.  I would be very surprised to find any Texas public university requiring the vaccine and not immediately having a huge backlash! 

 

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8 minutes ago, bibiche said:

@Bambam do you agree with the meningitis vaccine requirement?

I would not make it a requirement but highly highly advise it. 

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I was vaccinated at a mega site that is run by the health organization that my doctor is also through.   I pre-registered online through their patient portal (and people who weren't already registered were either encouraged or required to do so, not sure which), then was also checked in on site where they confirmed all the information, checked my drivers license and gave everyone a wrist band with a bar code and information on it.  That wrist band was shown to the person giving the shots and they updated the online record with what shot (brand and lot number) was given. 

My card is preprinted with the brand and lot number for my first shot, the second shot was added as a sticker.  The dates were written in, I wrote in my name and date of birth but it was checked against my wristband and the online record before the shot was given.   The clinic site was also preprinted on the cards.  

I just looked and all the information about my shots is also in my online record - brand, lot number, dates, etc. 

This is WAY more official looking than any vaccination record I've had or have for my kids.   My kids is basically a one page with a list of all vaccines that they put stickers and a date on when a vaccine is given.  I can request a copy of it anytime (those records are now also online). 

And yes, when my daughter passed her written test for her drivers license, all she was given was a small hand-filled in card with the date and passing score, and her name.  

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3 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I would not make it a requirement but highly highly advise it. 

I think just advising it though would have a lot of students not getting it, which could have nightmarish consequences in a communal living environment. 
 

I will say that the vaccine requirements,  or rather lack thereof, have made it significantly easier to eliminate choices when it comes to considering universities for DC. 

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1 minute ago, Bambam said:

I would not make it a requirement but highly highly advise it. 

A lot of colleges do not see it that way. It goes around dorms rapidly and is a huge liability. College students have been known to feel sick, go to sleep, and die in their beds, especially meningitis B. I do not blame colleges one bit for requiring it. My sons' colleges require meningitis A and highly recommend B in order to live in the dorms.

One thing everyone needs to consider is that while K12 education is mandatory, college is not, and there is no constitutional or basic human right to a college education much less to live in a dorm. There is no requirement for colleges to provide housing; it has just been a historical tradition dating back to when it was vitally necessary to provide room and boars because there was not a college in every little city. Therefore, colleges really can require what they want like it or not. They don't have to let everyone live in their dorms or attend their classes. There are definitely ADA and anti-discrimination laws they have to follow, but beyond that, students attend by privilege not by mandate. Colleges really do not have to accommodate no vaccinated students except those covered under ADA who provide medical documentation of being unable to vaccinate. So I find the backlash against requiring the covid vaccine, assuming it is fully approved and off the emergency use provision, a little disconcerting. It is as if folks feel their kids or they themselves have a legal right to attend in person classes or live in dorms, but they don't. There is no violation of rights whatsoever. And the colleges can require whatever level of documentation they want for the vaccine, and students produce it or do not attend. I get some people do not like it, but the reality is that it is what it is.

With recent outbreaks of measles, chicken pox, and meningitis on college campuses these past few years, I think one can expect more mandatory vaccines in the coming years, not less. I would imagine that for those who are adamantly against such stipulations, some private, religious institutions will still exist that do not have these requirements and that is where those students will have to go.

For the record, I am 100% for meningitis, MMR, chicken pox, covid, and tetanus being required to live on campus. My engineering student has worked with enough equipment to make me believe some majors must absolutely be required to keep tetanus up to date! A few years ago, three students died of meningitis in their dorm rooms at my middle son's college...roommates discovered them. The new variants of covid could wreck havoc on a college campus, but the vaccines so far are working on the most prominent variants here in Michigan. I am very aware that this is not a popular viewpoint for some folks. Oh well.

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15 hours ago, Bootsie said:

If someone is just asking for a card at an entrance of a stadium, graduation, concert hall, are they going to take the time to check each card and make sure that it matches a picture ID and the person holding the card?    And there are some very common names that tend to run in families in the area where I am.  

well yeah, I'd expect them to check id as well or it is pointless. 

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28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

well yeah, I'd expect them to check id as well or it is pointless. 

I think for something like season ticket holders for the symphony, they will have a way to upload vaccine proof, and then the entire season's tickets will be mailed. They will likely go with an honor system - but the crowd that is into classical music is usually not your forgery crowd - and will then only check the single ticket holders. Season tickets bar code scan for the DSO. My guess is that summer Meadowbrook series will not require vaccination for attendance. It is pretty low risk. Outside picnic on the grass, bring your own chairs, and naturally socially distanced. There is amphitheater seating, but very limited, and they could just rope that off and not use it.

Otherwise I would totally expect ID to be checked for 18+ maybe even 16+.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bibiche said:

I think just advising it though would have a lot of students not getting it, which could have nightmarish consequences in a communal living environment. 
 

I will say that the vaccine requirements,  or rather lack thereof, have made it significantly easier to eliminate choices when it comes to considering universities for DC. 

Same here. I do not think it is at all a coincidence that L picked the college with the most conservative COVID response and that had said that they expected to require vaccination, would be offering it on campus, and please upload your card when you get it (and now has definitively stated that it is required to have completed a full vaccination series of whatever vaccine is approved in your home country in order to attend classes on campus, unless you qualify for a very limited waiver and have said documentation-in which case you will be required to be tested weekly and to quarantine if exposed.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dmmetler
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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

For the record, I am 100% for meningitis, MMR, chicken pox, covid, and tetanus being required to live on campus

Yes. I am very much in favor of vaccine requirements for communicable diseases for students choosing to live in a  dorm. I'd be willing to concede that tetanus can be left to individual choice (a person may freely choose the risk of dying a horrible painful death without posing a risk to fellow students), but the accompanying diphtheria and pertussis vaccines that are usually given in combination with tetanus definitely are a community concern.

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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

A lot of colleges do not see it that way. It goes around dorms rapidly and is a huge liability. College students have been known to feel sick, go to sleep, and die in their beds, especially meningitis B. I do not blame colleges one bit for requiring it. My sons' colleges require meningitis A and highly recommend B in order to live in the dorms.

One thing everyone needs to consider is that while K12 education is mandatory, college is not, and there is no constitutional or basic human right to a college education much less to live in a dorm. There is no requirement for colleges to provide housing; it has just been a historical tradition dating back to when it was vitally necessary to provide room and boars because there was not a college in every little city. Therefore, colleges really can require what they want like it or not. They don't have to let everyone live in their dorms or attend their classes. There are definitely ADA and anti-discrimination laws they have to follow, but beyond that, students attend by privilege not by mandate. Colleges really do not have to accommodate no vaccinated students except those covered under ADA who provide medical documentation of being unable to vaccinate. So I find the backlash against requiring the covid vaccine, assuming it is fully approved and off the emergency use provision, a little disconcerting. It is as if folks feel their kids or they themselves have a legal right to attend in person classes or live in dorms, but they don't. There is no violation of rights whatsoever. And the colleges can require whatever level of documentation they want for the vaccine, and students produce it or do not attend. I get some people do not like it, but the reality is that it is what it is.

With recent outbreaks of measles, chicken pox, and meningitis on college campuses these past few years, I think one can expect more mandatory vaccines in the coming years, not less. I would imagine that for those who are adamantly against such stipulations, some private, religious institutions will still exist that do not have these requirements and that is where those students will have to go.

For the record, I am 100% for meningitis, MMR, chicken pox, covid, and tetanus being required to live on campus. My engineering student has worked with enough equipment to make me believe some majors must absolutely be required to keep tetanus up to date! A few years ago, three students died of meningitis in their dorm rooms at my middle son's college...roommates discovered them. The new variants of covid could wreck havoc on a college campus, but the vaccines so far are working on the most prominent variants here in Michigan. I am very aware that this is not a popular viewpoint for some folks. Oh well.

College students dying suddenly of meningitis is actually really true. Happened at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign during the 1990-91 academic year. I remember the dorm director and RAs banging on doors and waking us up super early in the morning for an emergency meeting out in the hall. That was my first exposure to mass inoculation—they transformed the Armory soon after that for the vaccination drive.

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2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

. There is no requirement for colleges to provide housing; it has just been a historical tradition dating back to when it was vitally necessary to provide room and boars because there was not a college in every little city. Therefore, colleges really can require what they want like it or not. They don't have to let everyone live in their dorms or attend their classes. 

I have found it very strange when conservatives, which have been traditionally for strong property rights, have wanted to balk at wearing masks in businesses that required them. I know liberals have balked at masks too but you would think the whole trespassing on people's property and ignoring their rules would bother a conservative more.

This is why it is inconsistent with previous positions to suggest that colleges can't make their own rules about who does and doesn't attend based on actions not race etc.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Bootsie said:

If someone is just asking for a card at an entrance of a stadium, graduation, concert hall, are they going to take the time to check each card and make sure that it matches a picture ID and the person holding the card?    And there are some very common names that tend to run in families in the area where I am.  

All of your examples are part of why I think businesses shouldn’t be checking. I don’t think it will last very long if they decide to do so.

College dorm or cruise line, airline, something like that, makes sense.

But not concerts, ball games, theaters, etc. 

Every adult and soon all teens, in America can have the vaccine if they want to. If they don’t, they are the ones at real risk, not the vaccinated. 

If someone is that worried about catching Covid after being vaccinated, they probably should not be going to a stadium, for example, no matter what, because even if places require vaccination, it isn’t full-proof, and there will be those who work the system no matter what. If I were a transplant recipient for which the vaccines are turning out not to be very protective, I’m unfortunately going to have to stay away from crowds for the foreseeable future. There is no vaccine policy that makes it truly safe for me. 

I really disagree with the idea of shutting out the people who don’t want to get a vaccine. I do not feel they are a great danger to me. The vaccines work. I don’t believe it is helping significantly on an individual level of risk, to shut them out; it seems clear that the purpose is the exertion of social pressure to try to get them to be vaccinated. 

Edited by Penelope
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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Penelope said:

All of your examples are part of why I think businesses shouldn’t be checking. I don’t think it will last very long if they decide to do so.

College dorm or cruise line, airline, something like that, makes sense.

But not concerts, ball games, theaters, etc. 

Every adult and soon all teens, in America can have the vaccine if they want to. If they don’t, they are the ones at real risk, not the vaccinated. 

If someone is that worried about catching Covid after being vaccinated, they probably should not be going to a stadium,...

A concert venue can make it a selling point and attract more of an audience when they require vaccination. I can imagine that a performance for vaccinated people will sell out faster since many people will be reluctant to attend otherwise. I am not going to attend a theatre performance indoors for the forseeable future - unless I can be reasonably sure the vast majority of the audience is vaccinated.

And then there is also the safety of the people who may not be able to get a vaccine for health reasons but cannot simply choose to stay home - because they work there.

Edited by regentrude
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4 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

College students dying suddenly of meningitis is actually really true. Happened at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign during the 1990-91 academic year. I remember the dorm director and RAs banging on doors and waking us up super early in the morning for an emergency meeting out in the hall. That was my first exposure to mass inoculation—they transformed the Armory soon after that for the vaccination drive.

It is so scary. When it happened to the daughter of an acquaintance, our eldest boy was only a year away from moving into the dorms, so I got him in for the vaccine right away. MSU several years ago had it go around and lost multiple students. 

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4 hours ago, regentrude said:

Yes. I am very much in favor of vaccine requirements for communicable diseases for students choosing to live in a  dorm. I'd be willing to concede that tetanus can be left to individual choice (a person may freely choose the risk of dying a horrible painful death without posing a risk to fellow students), but the accompanying diphtheria and pertussis vaccines that are usually given in combination with tetanus definitely are a community concern.

I agree to an extent about tetanus. But unfortunately, we do have a terribly litigious society, and some majors put students at higher risk, automotive and electrical engineering come to mind, but several others ad well including the Ag Science majors. So I am not at all adverse to colleges requiring them.

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On 5/8/2021 at 12:04 PM, ktgrok said:

Do you have a better idea? Sincerely asking what would be better. 

I don’t think that there are any alternatives for fall.  They can require. Some will forge.  Many will not.  I don’t want best to be enemy of the good. Just realize many will slip through.  Bit it is better than nothing.  

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18 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I don’t think that there are any alternatives for fall.  They can require. Some will forge.  Many will not.  I don’t want best to be enemy of the good. Just realize many will slip through.  Bit it is better than nothing.  

Yep, arguments that say things have to 100% or it's worthless are silly to me, whether that is for masks, savings and investments, seatbelts, bike helmets or whatever. Living life involves risks and mitigation helps us navigate life but never reduces risk to 0%. That's just life. 

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