Lawrence University (vs. big state school)

[Mrs.W]

DD is down to her final two and Lawrence has been kind of a surprise for us. We were only able to visit schools in Minnesota before Covid hit, so Lawrence was just added to her list as another school similar to St. Olaf. St. Olaf wasn't super generous with merit aid, so they are out of the running. Lawrence gave her great merit aid and she was awarded a couple more small scholarships. She's been able to meet with faculty (majoring in history and English, but possibly doing museum studies instead of one of those two) and has just loved everything she hears. But it does make us nervous that she's never visited (we cannot fit in a visit this month) and that it is so small (~1,500, about half the size of St. Olaf). The other top contender is U. of Minnesota, which she has visited and she loved it. In fact, that was her favorite when we visited schools in the state, even more than St. Olaf, although she has trouble articulating what it was she loved so much about it. It was more of a *feeling*. She'd be in the Honors program and the price is the same as Lawrence (we're OOS). Lawrence has definitely felt more personal in the whole application/admission process, and I think she is definitely swayed by that. U of MN would be easier for travel and we do have friends in the area if she needed help with anything. So, I'm not really sure what my question is, but does anyone have personal experience with Lawrence that might add to what we know or give us a little more confidence? Or maybe just weigh in on small schools vs. big schools in general? 

[fourisenough]

No experience with Lawrence, but 1,500 seems very small *to me*. My girls are at/have graduated from a school with just under 3,000 students. While the size does make it feel personal and very manageable, both girls would have chosen a bigger school if they had it to do over. My husband and I went to a school with about 5,000 students and we loved it. YMMV. 

[teachermom2834]

My ds graduated in 2020 from a school about that size. It is very very small. It worked out for him but he is very easy going and had a lot going (played a sport, fraternity, etc). 

It was good for him and he had a good experience and graduated on time with a good job. No regrets overall but I am certain he would have liked a bit bigger. I am sure some (most?) students would find it far too limiting. 
 

Maybe Lawrence is the right fit. No idea but I’m just popping in to say that the small size really is a factor to be considered. My ds would make the same choice if he had to do it again, I just do think he would have liked it to be bigger. I think his overall experience was good but the size would go in the “con” category. 

[Dmmetler]

FWIW, we had a similar decision, between Agnes Scott, which is about 1000 undergraduates, and University of Missouri (with a couple of mid-sized in the mix as well). My kid decided on Agnes, and one reason is that while Agnes is a much smaller school, because it is part of a consortium of Atlanta schools and has an extensive network for internship and field experiences, there is a lot of flexibility and you aren't constrained just to the school's offerings. I also think that part of it is that even 1000 undergrads on campus at a residential college is a pretty big jump when your graduating class size was 1/1! (and classes at the community college tend to not be terribly overwhelming because only a tiny fraction of the student body is on campus at one time). It's just been rare for my kid to be part of a group of more than, oh, 20, or so. 

 

 

[happypamama]

I know nothing about Lawrence, but I did go to a very big state school and was quite happy there.  The size can be an advantage or a disadvantage.  On the one hand, it's perhaps a bit harder to get personalized attention, and a lot of the gen eds will be large and more impersonal.

 

On the other hand, there were lots of options -- multiple dining halls, multiple sections of classes, lots of clubs and activities, big library, etc.  For extroverts, lots of chances to make friends and do things.  For introverts (of which DH and I are very, very much so), you'd think the big size would be overwhelming, but it was kind of the opposite.  Large classes meant you didn't have to be in the spotlight, and it meant you could just be part of the crowd if you wanted.  Large gen eds tended to be easier, typically fewer papers or required homework, so for a self-motivated student like myself, it was a nice balance with smaller upper level/honors classes -- not everything needed to be a high pressure situation.  Also, easier to find your tribe, IMO, because there were more likely to be your kind of people somewhere.  I really never felt the hugeness of the school except at football games. 😉  Disadvantage for some: you may need to work a little harder to get help or to be noticed, depending on your major, and they don't come chasing you down if you're falling behind in work or not going to class.  DH and I were both very happy there, but my younger brother, also an introvert, visited once, prospectively, and froze at the size; it was just too big for him, and he was happy at a much smaller school which, while lovely, seemed stifling to me.  Everyone's different.

 

I also was in a tiiiiiiny major (out of 40k undergrads total, there were two others in my year and none right before me), so I had a close relationship with one particular professor and some upperclassmen in the major, and I was also in the honors program, which also meant there were people there to help or to make connections if desired, and honors students did have some special privileges.  So I felt like I really got the best of both worlds -- the large school advantages and the small school ones too.  It sometimes is what you make of it.

[Farrar]

I think one thing that's important to consider is that Lawrence is small, but Appleton is not that small. Some small schools are also in small or isolated towns. You have to go a ways to get to anything other than the little college strip of shops. Not the case in Appleton, which is hardly a big city, but is larger than many realize. In general, you probably know the lay of things overall though - small schools are so much better at nurturing students in general and connecting them with research and one on one opportunities. But also, if you end up not connecting with a particular professor or out of sync socially for some reason, then they can feel confining.

[Farrar]

10 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

FWIW, we had a similar decision, between Agnes Scott, which is about 1000 undergraduates, and University of Missouri (with a couple of mid-sized in the mix as well). My kid decided on Agnes, and one reason is that while Agnes is a much smaller school, because it is part of a consortium of Atlanta schools and has an extensive network for internship and field experiences, there is a lot of flexibility and you aren't constrained just to the school's offerings. I also think that part of it is that even 1000 undergrads on campus at a residential college is a pretty big jump when your graduating class size was 1/1! (and classes at the community college tend to not be terribly overwhelming because only a tiny fraction of the student body is on campus at one time). It's just been rare for my kid to be part of a group of more than, oh, 20, or so. 

 

Oh, I think I missed that she was going to Agnes Scott. Congrats! My mom was a Scottie. And I almost went but then ended up at Mt. Holyoke instead. 

But yay for Colleges That Change Lives schools - which Lawrence is one as well.

[Lanny]

@Mrs.WI am old and when I went to High School, it was 3 school years:  10th, 11th and 12th grades. My High School had approximately 2400 students when I was there. Lawrence may be "the perfect" school for your DD.  Or, it may be the "KOD" (Kiss of Death).  I would be concerned about the sizes of the English and History Departments and the number of Instructors, etc. in a school with such as small student population.  i think the big universities can offer one a lot more and may in fact be more responsive with Support and other things than a school with about 1500 students.  And, one can find "their tribe" in a huge school. In a small school, if one is not in the clique, one will be alone. 

Disclaimer{  My DD is at UNC which is a large Public university and we are thrilled to have her there.  She is a 2nd year student now.  UNC is very helpful and supportive of the students.  UNC has approximately 30K students. 

I vote for the larger school, based upon no knowledge of either of them. 

Much good luck to your DD in making this choice. I hope she will be happy whichever school she selects.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrs.W]

21 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

 I also think that part of it is that even 1000 undergrads on campus at a residential college is a pretty big jump when your graduating class size was 1/1! (and classes at the community college tend to not be terribly overwhelming because only a tiny fraction of the student body is on campus at one time). It's just been rare for my kid to be part of a group of more than, oh, 20, or so. 

 

 

Yes! This is a point we've talked about a lot. And she plans to go to graduate school, so she could get her big school experience then.

[Mrs.W]

4 hours ago, Lanny said:

 I would be concerned about the sizes of the English and History Departments and the number of Instructors, etc. in a school with such as small student population. 

This has been one of our primary concerns and why it's been such a hard decision. She's had very positive interactions with the Lawrence faculty so far and she likes the course offerings and the opportunities for individualized study, but it's hard to know if a couple years down the road she would have wished there were a greater variety of courses and professors.

[bibiche]

If the goal is graduate school, you can find out how successfully each school places its students. Does she have a particular area of interest? Have her go to the individual departments and have a look at what sort of research the faculty is doing. See what courses they teach. 
 

Beyond that, the big or small thing really comes down to the individual. I’ve been to both and had a good experience at both. I’d concentrate on what she is hoping to get out of college and go from there. And congratulations! 

Edited April 5, 2021 by bibiche

[Mrs.W]

16 minutes ago, bibiche said:

If the goal is graduate school, you can find out how successfully each school places its students. Does she have a particular area of interest? Have her go to the individual departments and have a look at what sort of research the faculty is doing. See what courses they teach. 
 

Beyond that, the big or small thing really comes down to the individual. 

Yes, she's talked to both departments about that and was pleased with what they had to say. She has several areas of interest so far, so it's a little early to know what path in graduate school she'd want to take, but it does sound like she'd have plenty of support at Lawrence with whatever she decided.

[bibiche]

1 minute ago, Mrs.W said:

Yes, she's talked to both departments about that and was pleased with what they had to say. She has several areas of interest so far, so it's a little early to know what path in graduate school she'd want to take, but it does sound like she'd have plenty of support at Lawrence with whatever she decided.

The great thing is that she can’t really make a bad decision in this situation. Both options sound fabulous. 😀 

[Lanny]

On 4/4/2021 at 9:18 PM, Mrs.W said:

This has been one of our primary concerns and why it's been such a hard decision. She's had very positive interactions with the Lawrence faculty so far and she likes the course offerings and the opportunities for individualized study, but it's hard to know if a couple years down the road she would have wished there were a greater variety of courses and professors.

This is one of the issues where the pedal hits the metal.   I suggest that you and your DD explore Coursicle.com for both UNC at Chapel Hill and for Lawrence University if it is included on Coursicle.   https://www.coursicle.com/

Pick a subject at UNC CH for example English or History and look at the selection of courses. And then,  if Lawrence is on Coursicle do the same for Lawrence. If Lawrence is not on Coursicle, study the Courses in the Catalog from Lawrence. I believe there is going to be an overwhelming interest in the courses available at the large state public university but the decision is not mine or yours, it is for your DD to make.

Much good luck to her with this decision!

[JanetC]

OK, it's time I pipe up on this one as a parent who has one child at "Big State U" and one who just graduated from Lawrence.

Regarding course availability:

Lawrence is serious about independent study. The "senior experience" graduation requirement means many upperclassmen are rolling their own courses, but my daughter had a friend who started as a freshman in "design your own major" and did this throughout her four years.

But, many of the regular classes are only offered every other year. Which makes some scheduling difficult because you can't just "take it next year" or "take it next term."

And Big State U may have lots of classes, if you are lucky to have early access by being in an honors program or log in promptly at 6 am or whatever, but just because the class exists on paper doesn't mean you can get into it. And when State U kid did changed majors, but it was like applying all over again: transcript and essay and why should we admit you to our competitive major. Much more flexibility on that at a small college (except for audition-required conservatory majors at Lawrence, but even then there are lots of music ensembles open to non-majors: there really is a strong creative community there for either performing or just the regular stream of awesome performances to attend). Large lectures, grad students running quiz sections, etc. - it's a different experience. My LU daughter sought out small colleges in particular after being at a more impersonal community college for dual enrollment.

Lawrence in particular:

* Is somewhat isolated from the surrounding town in terms of Trumpy townies not liking what they perceive to be "too liberal" LU students. Honestly, LU has all groups politically but the folks driving by and harassing students can't tell your politics they'll holler at you anyway. (Even visiting parents!)

* Has terrible mental health supports if you feel your child might need that

* High quality teaching overall

* Definitely a see-familiar-faces-everywhere kind of environment

 

[NewnameC]

I think sometimes a decision comes down to a feeling when picking a college and that’s okay as long as that doesn’t mean an unaffordable choice.

I know four students at colleges with an enrollment of 1,000 or less right now. I don’t know about the freshman, but the other 3 all love the experience. I don’t remember the freshman’s major, but the other three all plan to go to grad school. I have heard great things about the support they have received. (These three happen to be athletes also) All but the sophomore went to big high schools and had no trouble with the transition to a smaller school. 

Im glad you received information specific to Lawrence, because I don’t think all small schools are the same just like not all big schools are the same. Since your daughter isn’t certain of her major, you may want to look at how hard it is change majors/schools at Minnesota. My graduate changed majors the day before classes started junior year at a big school and it simply required an email. He did have a weird combo of classes that semester, because he had to take whatever classes had openings. There were enough for a full schedule. 

 

Edited April 9, 2021 by NewnameC

[Mrs.W]

On 4/8/2021 at 10:35 AM, JanetC said:

OK, it's time I pipe up on this one as a parent who has one child at "Big State U" and one who just graduated from Lawrence.

Regarding course availability:

Lawrence is serious about independent study. The "senior experience" graduation requirement means many upperclassmen are rolling their own courses, but my daughter had a friend who started as a freshman in "design your own major" and did this throughout her four years.

But, many of the regular classes are only offered every other year. Which makes some scheduling difficult because you can't just "take it next year" or "take it next term."

And Big State U may have lots of classes, if you are lucky to have early access by being in an honors program or log in promptly at 6 am or whatever, but just because the class exists on paper doesn't mean you can get into it. And when State U kid did changed majors, but it was like applying all over again: transcript and essay and why should we admit you to our competitive major. Much more flexibility on that at a small college (except for audition-required conservatory majors at Lawrence, but even then there are lots of music ensembles open to non-majors: there really is a strong creative community there for either performing or just the regular stream of awesome performances to attend). Large lectures, grad students running quiz sections, etc. - it's a different experience. My LU daughter sought out small colleges in particular after being at a more impersonal community college for dual enrollment.

Lawrence in particular:

* Is somewhat isolated from the surrounding town in terms of Trumpy townies not liking what they perceive to be "too liberal" LU students. Honestly, LU has all groups politically but the folks driving by and harassing students can't tell your politics they'll holler at you anyway. (Even visiting parents!)

* Has terrible mental health supports if you feel your child might need that

* High quality teaching overall

* Definitely a see-familiar-faces-everywhere kind of environment

 

Thank you, @JanetC! All of this was so helpful. Did your daughter do study abroad? Since you mentioned many courses being offered only every other year, I'm wondering if that causes problems with those doing a study abroad program. I might have more questions for you this week as she finalizes her decision--is it okay to PM you?

[JanetC]

OK to message me. No, she applied for study abroad then backed out at the last minute. It's not likely to hurt you for graduating, especially if you're at the Lawrence London campus, but there are electives you might miss.