How to deal with a slow worker?

[ScoutTN]

Dd is a very good student, but slow.
 

We are working on time mgmt and planning with a small amount of success. How do I get her to see all the wasted time in her day? 
 

Also, is it worth having her tested for processing speed? How is this evaluated and what score/level gets accommodations on standardized testing? She has only done the CLT so far and her issue is finishing in time. 

[Arcadia]

Processing speed was part of the WISC test that we paid to have administered to our kids when they were young. We were able to claim part of the cost through insurance.

As for time confetti and time management, I had my kids log their time and work done just like working adults who need to charge clients for time based work. We did that for a few months so they could see what are their time wasters and what subjects they just need more time.

This is an old article but quite detailed https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10447

This is a newer one https://www.davidsongifted.org/search-database/entry/a10782

[Arcadia]

“A low processing speed in itself, however, does not usually indicate the need for testing accommodations. In this instance, documentation should show how the low processing speed affects the student’s overall academic abilities under timed conditions.  ”

https://accommodations.collegeboard.org/documentation-guidelines/extended-time

@kbutton@Pam in CT@Storygirl

 

[SDMomof3]

My dd uses Toggl Track to help her track how she is spending her time. It has really help her with time management. 

[kbutton]

Slow processing is frustrating, but it helps to know if it's part of ADHD, a lack of awareness of time, or something else. I suppose it can occur solo.

WISC testing shows processing speed, and the tester should recommend accommodations in a written report. Time and a half is a typical accommodation.

I think musical training helps. Training kids to perceive the passing of time helps. Taking care of things contributing to slow processing can help (any other LDs/processing issues, retained reflexes, attention issues, etc.).

 

[Pam in CT]

8 hours ago, kbutton said:

....i think musical training helps. Training kids to perceive the passing of time helps...

I've never heard this insight before- makes a lot of sense.

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

I think musical training helps. Training kids to perceive the passing of time helps. Taking care of things contributing to slow processing can help (any other LDs/processing issues, retained reflexes, attention issues, etc.).

 

 

3 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I've never heard this insight before- makes a lot of sense.

@lewelma wrote a post on how playing the violin helps her older son. 
 

There are a few research articles on it. E.g.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4703819/

”Musical training seems to have a beneficial effect on processing speed: adolescents with years of active musical experience showed better performance in both visual and auditory information processing speed tasks than non-musicians (Bugos and Mostafa, 2011). These findings may suggest that musical training influences the integration of visual and acoustic information with complex motor patterns. Consistent with this picture a longitudinal study has shown better performance in processing speed tasks in a group of children who followed musical training for 1 year compared to children who followed a science training (Roden et al., 2014). Additional evidence comes from the already earlier mentioned study by Bergman Nutley et al. (2014), in which music training, besides improving WM, was also found to improve processing speed and reasoning ability (i.e., fluid intelligence). These findings are particularly intriguing given the relation between WM and processing speed (Fry and Hale, 2000), and the strong connection of this relationship with the construct of intelligence. The possibility that reasoning ability may benefit from music training is indeed supported by other findings. After 30 weeks children receiving music instruction improved in the Binet intelligence subscale involving spatial-temporal reasoning abilities (Bilhartz et al., 1999). Along the same lines, Schellenberg (2004) found that music lessons, compared to drama lessons or no lessons, enhance IQ, as measured by WISC-III (Wechsler, 1991). Schellenberg (2006) reported a long-lasting association between formal exposure to music in childhood and both IQ and academic performance. Moreover, Moreno et al. (2011) pointed out that even a shorter-term music training of 20 days was enough to enhance verbal intelligence in children. Finally, Schellenberg (2011) suggested that the link between musical training and IQ may not be mediated by executive functions but children with higher IQs may be more likely than children with lower IQs to take music lessons.”

[EKS]

If she is wasting time, that's different from a processing speed issue or even ADHD.  Lots and lots of students, and people in general, think they're working when they really aren't.  And the internet hasn't helped.

Do you observe her while she works?  Is she slow even when you're sitting there?  

[kbutton]

Bigger Better Brains is an organization that talks a lot about music and brain development if anyone is interested. https://biggerbetterbrains.com/

If you have a kid with some learning challenges, it helps to have a teacher that "gets" your kid. 

My child with time issues probably still has plenty of them, but we spent a day or two timing everything. We timed him doing something he hated. He guessed what the time would be and was wildy over in his guess. We used that same time and told him to go do something fun, but we'd let him know when the same time had passed. He could NOT believe it was the same timeframe. He would've guessed it was much, much faster. I don't know if his sense of time has improved a great deal, but his sense of how warped time is for him has gotten better. 

I think a sense of time is often inborn. Both of my kids use timers, but in contrast, my other son almost always wakes up just before his alarm goes off, and you can just about set your watch by his sense of time. When he was a toddler, he somehow always knew when it was bedtime. We could be talking in the yard with the neighbor, and he'd try to drag us back in the house--when we'd look at the clock, it would be within five minutes of bedtime, every time. It was not based on cues of what we were doing because he'd often initiate before we'd started the routine (we had a very short bedtime routine because a long wind down did not work for him). Neither of my kids is neurotypical, so it's not that one is more normal than the other, lol. 😉 

[JennyD]

On 3/27/2021 at 8:45 PM, ScoutTN said:

How do I get her to see all the wasted time in her day? 

I frequently make DS15 log all of his work hours.  Then we add it all up at the end of the week and see how much time he is really and truly spending on each subject.  It has been very helpful for both of us.  

Edited March 30, 2021 by JennyD

[domestic_engineer]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:36 PM, SDMomof3 said:

My dd uses Toggl Track to help her track how she is spending her time. It has really help her with time management. 

Thanks for sharing this app. Could you give more details on how she uses the app, please?

[ScoutTN]

On 3/28/2021 at 11:54 AM, EKS said:

If she is wasting time, that's different from a processing speed issue or even ADHD.  Lots and lots of students, and people in general, think they're working when they really aren't.  And the internet hasn't helped.

Do you observe her while she works?  Is she slow even when you're sitting there?  

There is some wasted time, daydreaming. This is my math/art/music kid. 

But there is also slowness of movement. It takes her forever to do routine things -  I have been telling her forever, “ Move your body quickly.” 

Yes, she is slow when we work at the same table. 

[ScoutTN]

Dd is an excellent pianist and has played since she 7. She has also had choral training and does dance. Yes, all good for timing, but doesn’t seem to have had any helpful impact.

[ScoutTN]

Thanks for all the helpful ideas! 

[kbutton]

Is she inattentive when she's not getting direct input? Her mind might be following bunny trails that show engagement with the material in some way, but not in a productive way. 

Just wondering if ADHD is on the table at all. It's not exactly processing speed or slowness, but it can be intertwined. Many people with ADHD also happen to be slow and inefficient. 

Does she struggle with sleep? 

One of my ADHD people didn't seem very ADHD until he got in over his head with life responsibilities.

[SDMomof3]

2 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:

Thanks for sharing this app. Could you give more details on how she uses the app, please?

My dd has Toggl on her phone, iPad  and computer. Dd has ADHD and slow processing, she uses the calendar, timer, background ground tracking, reports and pomodoro features on the app.

 She will start the timer on the app when she starts working on a task. There is background tracking in the app, so if she get distracted, with social media or starts texting, or surfing the web, the app will track what sites or apps she is using and how long. Toggl is on all her devices, so she is able to view a detail report at the end of the day on how and where she spent her time. 

 

[ScoutTN]

Just now, SDMomof3 said:

My dd has Toggl on her phone, iPad  and computer. Dd has ADHD and slow processing, she uses the calendar, timer, background ground tracking, reports and pomodoro features on the app.

 She will start the timer on the app when she starts working on a task. There is background tracking in the app, so if she get distracted, with social media or starts texting, or surfing the web, the app will track what sites or apps she is using and how long. Toggl is on all her devices, so she is able to view a detail report at the end of the day on how and where she spent her time. 

 

 Sounds interesting, but we are much less techy than that and Dd does not have her own devices so probably not a fit for us. Seems like a whole 'nother layer of administration to add in? 

[JennyD]

5 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

 Sounds interesting, but we are much less techy than that and Dd does not have her own devices so probably not a fit for us. Seems like a whole 'nother layer of administration to add in? 

For what it's worth, our system is super low-tech.   I write out DS's weekly list and leave ample space under each subject for him to jot down a bunch of start and end times.  Then at the end of the week, he adds it all up, circles the totals, and shows it to me.  Probably not as good a monitor as something electronic that can keep track of sites on a computer, but he's not on the computer anyway for his most time-consuming subjects (math and physics) so it works well enough.

[ScoutTN]

9 minutes ago, JennyD said:

For what it's worth, our system is super low-tech.   I write out DS's weekly list and leave ample space under each subject for him to jot down a bunch of start and end times.  Then at the end of the week, he adds it all up, circles the totals, and shows it to me.  Probably not as good a monitor as something electronic that can keep track of sites on a computer, but he's not on the computer anyway for his most time-consuming subjects (math and physics) so it works well enough.

I just printed out some planner sheets that will work similarly to this, I think.  We've done paper planners in the past and they did help some. With other things in life taking over tons of time, I just dropped the ball on supervision of that. Mistake! 

[ScoutTN]

5 hours ago, kbutton said:

Is she inattentive when she's not getting direct input? Her mind might be following bunny trails that show engagement with the material in some way, but not in a productive way. 

Just wondering if ADHD is on the table at all. It's not exactly processing speed or slowness, but it can be intertwined. Many people with ADHD also happen to be slow and inefficient. 

Does she struggle with sleep? 

One of my ADHD people didn't seem very ADHD until he got in over his head with life responsibilities.

ADD inattentive, possibly. Not a speck of hyperactivity. No sleep issues. No health issues at all. Just not fast at schoolwork. Even when all her attention is on her work all the time, not fast. 

Smart, and an excellent student, but I don't want speed to be her nemesis on Standardized tests and ruin her chances to get merit aid. Merit aid is the only way she will have other options than Cc to local 4 year state U. 

[Arcadia]

7 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

There is some wasted time, daydreaming. This is my math/art/music kid. 

7 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Dd is an excellent pianist and has played since she 7. She has also had choral training and does dance. Yes, all good for timing, but doesn’t seem to have had any helpful impact.

Both my kids daydream, so do I. Music and dancing tend to be passive time management unless you are composing music or choreographing a dance. 
 

5 hours ago, kbutton said:

Is she inattentive when she's not getting direct input? Her mind might be following bunny trails that show engagement with the material in some way, but not in a productive way. 

I had YouTube on to supply background noise while doing my open book exams. Or else I would be extremely bored doing 75mcqs in a timed 90mins exam. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

ADD inattentive, possibly. Not a speck of hyperactivity. No sleep issues. No health issues at all. Just not fast at schoolwork. Even when all her attention is on her work all the time, not fast. 

Smart, and an excellent student, but I don't want speed to be her nemesis on Standardized tests and ruin her chances to get merit aid. Merit aid is the only way she will have other options than Cc to local 4 year state U. 

Are you open to meds?

Some people use them for specific tasks if the rest of life is humming along fine. 

[ScoutTN]

53 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Are you open to meds?

Some people use them for specific tasks if the rest of life is humming along fine. 

Yes, but would like to avoid them if possible. In general, this is a high functioning kid who balances lots of stuff with a great deal of grace and maturity. 

[ShepCarlin]

I don't really have any suggestions to help. I can only sympathize as we are in the same boat. We have finally decided to get our oldest son tested as he's been having issues for years and years. I can't wait to see what the testing tells us. I've always said I wish I knew what planet he visits because it must be FABULOUS. Takes him forever to get anything done. When he was younger, I'd find him in his room with one leg in his jeans, the other leg pantless, a book in his hand and a far away look on his face. The only time he can get out the door on time is if he is going to something he really wants to attend. Incredibly frustrating. He can finish tests in time but getting homework done, unloading the dishwasher, taking a shower...oy. I hope that testing will reveal what he needs help with. It's incredibly frustrating for someone like me as I've learned I'm unfortunately rather high strung on getting things done. Lots of deep breathing over here.

[cintinative]

2 hours ago, ShepCarlin said:

I don't really have any suggestions to help. I can only sympathize as we are in the same boat. We have finally decided to get our oldest son tested as he's been having issues for years and years. I can't wait to see what the testing tells us. I've always said I wish I knew what planet he visits because it must be FABULOUS. Takes him forever to get anything done. When he was younger, I'd find him in his room with one leg in his jeans, the other leg pantless, a book in his hand and a far away look on his face. The only time he can get out the door on time is if he is going to something he really wants to attend. Incredibly frustrating. He can finish tests in time but getting homework done, unloading the dishwasher, taking a shower...oy. I hope that testing will reveal what he needs help with. It's incredibly frustrating for someone like me as I've learned I'm unfortunately rather high strung on getting things done. Lots of deep breathing over here.

Can you share what testing is being done and how you found a provider for it? Thank you.

[ShepCarlin]

He is going to have a full psychoeducational evaluation by a psychologist. She comes highly recommended by our pediatrician. Of course...not covered by insurance (there options that our insurance would cover but not recommended by our pediatrician...frustrating) and she's estimating it will be over $2,000 out of pocket when everything is all said and done. My husband and I have a stack of forms to fill out and his co-op teacher has a stack of forms to fill out. There will be a parent meeting with the doctor and then son will meet with her for at least 2 days for a few hours each time for evaluation.  This will all happen mid-summer as this psychologist is booked until then. We have one more school year of this kid being home with us so we really wanted to see if there was a neurological issue or is he just being an absent minded teenager. I. Don't. Know. 

Seeing this post really hit home for me as he's wasting more time now than he did when he was younger. I really thought he'd grow out of it. Right now, I need to go tell him his hour long lunch is over and he needs to get on with his day. Once we get all the feedback, I'll start a new post on it for those interested. Certainly by no means an answer to everyone's problems, but it is where we are. I feel like I exhausted our resources in terms of teachers willing to help him with time management, books, seminars, etc.