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3 hours ago, SKL said:

New York is a bad example as the figures are seriously skewed due to policy decisions that caused thousands of deaths of the highest risk people.

Well you could also look at the country of Belgium as a whole if you like.  They are in the same boat.  Most of the top countries are in the 0.16-0.18pc range.

 

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For what it's worth, my husband studies toxic torts -- so, essentially, products that turned out to be dangerous -- and he maintains that the things to *really* worry about are (1) things that you con

re scale of vaccinations vs Covid confirmed cases Responding just to this one part of your post-  As of yesterday, there have been 137 million vaccine doses into US arms:https://www.bloomb

For me it’s pretty simple.  Covid is known to cause death, and the mechanisms by which it does are known.  If someone has Covid and dies in the way that Covid is known to kill then Covid is a likely c

We have a board member here with what seem to be long covid symptoms. 

A friend of mine, local, who had Covid last July still has brain fog, fatigue, and loss of smell and taste. 

Several people in my DDPY group have long covid symptoms of chest pain, fatigue, shortness of breath, etc. (months and months and months so far)

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Masers, what convinced you that Vanden Bossche is "insanely qualified"? Did you ever wonder why he had to publish his brilliant scientific theories in a letter on the internet rather than in any academic publication?

Those are good questions. How does one vet one's experts? What needs to happen? I think those are all questions one ought to ask themselves as much as other people. 

I agree with you that going through peer review and having publications would be a requirement for me. Not a sufficient condition... just a requirement. (That's when it comes to actual scientists, of course. As for boardies, I form my opinion using what they post and using their willingness to change their minds.) 

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11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

We have a board member here with what seem to be long covid symptoms. 

We have more than one, actually. We also have a boardie whose husband died and a boardie whose husband has long COVID 😞

I'm going to go bump the thread with experiences again. 

 

Quote

A friend of mine, local, who had Covid last July still has brain fog, fatigue, and loss of smell and taste. 

Several people in my DDPY group have long covid symptoms of chest pain, fatigue, shortness of breath, etc. (months and months and months so far)

We have local acquaintances with long COVID as well. 

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30 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

My concern about "Long Covid" is how strongly it resembles ME/CFS (myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) in it's package of symptoms.

People with ME/CFS rarely get better. It seems to be a lifelong illness and one that's very debilitating.

If even a small portion of Covid patients develop Long Covid and it is comparable with ME/CFS, society and afflicted individuals are in for a tough road.

Deeply concerning.

Bill 

 

It actually reminds me of quite a few AI diseases, depending on which symptom(s) are predominant in a given patient. And yes, it is deeply concerning.

An acquaintance got Covid right around the first of the year and is still dealing with lingering neurological issues and fatigue.

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3 hours ago, Penelope said:

It’s not an established thing and obviously varies around the world. There is a huge meta-analysis published by the WHO that I believe is lower than what I said, but that’s a worldwide estimate. Of course there are inherent problems with determining this number and we don’t know. It’s not worth quibbling over the exact number and I’m not going to do that; it’s silly because people who know more than all of us put together don’t agree on these numbers. It’s higher in some places and much lower in others. Countries and even individual states with more elderly far worse, but obesity rates are also correlated with outcomes.
 

Were all those people that died in NYC hospitals residents of NYC? I don’t know if it has been looked at in fine detail, but yes, NYC is an outlier in Covid mortality. Might have something to do with overwhelm and the fact that they didn’t know how to take care of Covid patients as well then. Many sources agree that the current mortality is much lower, and that is what matters looking forward.

My point was that it is extremely low for younger people. 

And if you want to say that B117 is more lethal, then I think you have to accept the conclusion of some the research that came from, that calculated an IFR of 0.3% or 0.4% in the U.K. for those over 30. If you include cases under 30, it’s clearly going to be lower than that. And this is in a Western country that has very high mortality.

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n579.short

Thanks for sharing your source.   This is a pretty recent study I haven’t read in detail yet.

This is probably worth noting in relation to this study 

“Inclusion criteria

People were eligible for study inclusion if they were older than 30 years and had a single positive test result for covid-19 from 1 October 2020 to 29 January 2021. We restricted our sampling to test results that reported a PCR cycle threshold value. Antigen swab tests in the UK are carried out through two routes: pillar 1 represents National Health Service testing of healthcare workers and those with a clinical need, and pillar 2 represents community testing of people with symptoms. Community based covid-19 diagnoses are generally in a younger population with less severe disease than hospital based covid-19 diagnoses, as elderly people or those with severe disease tend to present directly to hospital (see supplementary file for details). “

 

And more from the study

“As this was a community based study, we do not have information on the S gene status of patients in hospitals. The community based testing (pillar 2) in this dataset covered a younger age group and hence represented less severe disease than patients detected through hospital based testing (pillar 1). Death remains a comparatively rare outcome in patients detected in the community compared with identified in-hospital deaths. Our study only includes about 8% of the total deaths that occurred during the study period. Of all coronavirus deaths, about 26% occurred in those who were identified in the community, and data on S gene status was only available for 30%.23Whether the increase in mortality from community based testing is also observed in elderly patients or in patients admitted to hospital remains to be seen.”

 

This is a pretty good looking study I think from my amateur perspective but the aim of the study was not to calculate an accurate IFR for the population as a whole but to compare IFRs between different variants.  Because of this they didn’t have to make sure they had an accurate representation of the population as a whole they just had to make sure that they had an accurate comparison by accurately matching those with the different variants.

 

sorry I’ve edited/added a bit so hopefully you see the most recent version of this post.

Edited by Ausmumof3
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1 minute ago, Pawz4me said:

It actually reminds me of quite a few AI diseases, depending on which symptom(s) are predominant in a given patient. And yes, it is deeply concerning.

An acquaintance got Covid right around the first of the year and is still dealing with lingering neurological issues and fatigue.

One of my son's high school teachers, a young previously vital guy, has ongoing Long Covid issues. Brain fog, fatigue, photophobia, and the like.

He's one of the more gung-ho types who was almost uniquely in favor of reopening early (not a popular position among teachers here). But I hear him on Zoom and he's not doing so well. Definitely struggling many months later.

He wasn't even that sick AFAIK. But it hasn't let go.

I pray that Long Covid doesn't prove to be a lifelong illness, but I do have concerns about it.

Bill

 

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39 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

My concern about "Long Covid" is how strongly it resembles ME/CFS (myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) in it's package of symptoms.

People with ME/CFS rarely get better. It seems to be a lifelong illness and one that's very debilitating.

If even a small portion of Covid patients develop Long Covid and it is comparable with ME/CFS, society and afflicted individuals are in for a tough road.

Deeply concerning.

Bill 

 

Being dx'd with CF at 17, and Fibro in my mid-late 20's....  yeah, it's not been a fun ride.     It could be devastating to the economy, especially, if lots of people get it.   
another issue, I've been 'hearing' where COVID is causing some peoples' pancreas to attack itself.  Having a kid with type one diabetes, that is especially concerning, as well,  because God only knows what kind of impact that will have on the economy, healthcare, etc. 

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9 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Being dx'd with CF at 17, and Fibro in my mid-late 20's....  yeah, it's not been a fun ride.     It could be devastating to the economy, especially, if lots of people get it.   
another issue, I've been 'hearing' where COVID is causing some peoples' pancreas to attack itself.  Having a kid with type one diabetes, that is especially concerning, as well,  because God only knows what kind of impact that will have on the economy, healthcare, etc. 

Viruses are known to be a trigger for diabetes, for sure. 

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Viruses are known to be a trigger for diabetes, for sure. 

Yes.  When he was dx'd years ago, dr said possibly from one of his bouts with strep, since there is no family history.   
Id love a vax for strep, too.  

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2 minutes ago, Masers said:

He has been vaccinated for months and is still not allowed to do anything. We have not been able to visit since March 2020. He also already HAD Covid. So. Idk. 

I find the US very difficult to understand sometimes and to be honest I often think inflexible on many occasions. There have been so many places that have not had many restrictions at all and no mask mandates and yet one can’t visit a vaccinated, already had Covid, relative in a nursing home in person yet. The UK has had very strict restrictions and mask mandates etc, however, since the vaccine rollout one can visit relatives in nursing homes and even bring small children with you. 
I find it so bizarre. 

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5 minutes ago, TCB said:

I find the US very difficult to understand sometimes and to be honest I often think inflexible on many occasions. There have been so many places that have not had many restrictions at all and no mask mandates and yet one can’t visit a vaccinated, already had Covid, relative in a nursing home in person yet. The UK has had very strict restrictions and mask mandates etc, however, since the vaccine rollout one can visit relatives in nursing homes and even bring small children with you. 
I find it so bizarre. 

I’m in the “take it seriously” camp and I agree with you.  Nursing homes and hospitals have had strange rules.  

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2 minutes ago, TCB said:

I find the US very difficult to understand sometimes and to be honest I often think inflexible on many occasions. There have been so many places that have not had many restrictions at all and no mask mandates and yet one can’t visit a vaccinated, already had Covid, relative in a nursing home in person yet. The UK has had very strict restrictions and mask mandates etc, however, since the vaccine rollout one can visit relatives in nursing homes and even bring small children with you. 
I find it so bizarre. 

I assume the ban on visitors there is likely imposed by the facility, and is not remotely common throughout the US. Even in my state, which has had some of the strictest and most long-lasting lockdowns, and which still has a state-wide mask mandate, state guidelines have allowed family visits in nursing homes and assisted living places for months now.

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7 minutes ago, TCB said:

I find the US very difficult to understand sometimes and to be honest I often think inflexible on many occasions. There have been so many places that have not had many restrictions at all and no mask mandates and yet one can’t visit a vaccinated, already had Covid, relative in a nursing home in person yet. The UK has had very strict restrictions and mask mandates etc, however, since the vaccine rollout one can visit relatives in nursing homes and even bring small children with you. 
I find it so bizarre. 

Yeah, I think this rule makes no sense. 

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1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

My concern about "Long Covid" is how strongly it resembles ME/CFS (myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome) in it's package of symptoms.

People with ME/CFS rarely get better. It seems to be a lifelong illness and one that's very debilitating.

If even a small portion of Covid patients develop Long Covid and it is comparable with ME/CFS, society and afflicted individuals are in for a tough road.

Deeply concerning.

Bill 

 

YES. I agree.

I do have a long-time friend who was diagnosed at Mayo with long covid. It has been horrifying to watch. It has been almost a year since her original, severe infection, and she still cannot work even part-time hours. This is someone who relishes her career and loves what she does and tended to work a lot because she is just so interested and fascinated in what she does. And now she can hardly crawl through it. 

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4 minutes ago, Masers said:

It’s completely senseless.

my husband is going to be able to see his grandfather for the first time in May—he already has the appt set up and has been waiting anxiously to do so. We have both felt just awful for him, as his is a lonely widower who LIVED for social visits and activities. (They’ve also cancelled bingo and other activities for over a year). He is very very sad and having a hard time coping. More than once he has been in isolation—2 weeks in essentially solitary confinement.

so my husband calls to set up this appt. and the convo was something like this:

nurse: “so when you visit, you have to be six feet away and both wearing masks. And you can’t touch or hug him.”

dh: “I can’t give him a hug? When he’s fully vaccinated and has had Covid and we’re both masked?”

nurse: “you can give him a hug if you do your visit outdoors, but not indoors.”

dh: “what’s the reasoning there?”

nurse: “that’s our policy.”

I’m listening to this just so angry, because a) how does this even make one iota of sense, and b) how can we allow people to tell us we CAN’T hug our grandparents if both parties want to do so?!

This kind of reminds me of how things are with kids and schools sometimes.  
 

Here in Aus the gov did put some legislation in place to prevent nursing homes from staying locked down without justifiable reason.  We have had so many recent aged care scandals that it was pretty critical to allow families access to make sure their people were ok. 
 

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@Masers Wow, that’s pretty over the top.

My ILs’ nursing facility opened up activities and then the cafeteria as soon as all the residents and staff were vaccinated and it had time to kick in.  Until last week, the visiting was not great - 30 minutes separated by glass, I’m not sure how it worked as we didn’t go. Now visits are in person, up to an hour, and hugging is allowed.  We are in a strict state, but the rules about visiting are set by the facility.

If it’s an option, we have found that an Amazon Show has been excellent for our nursing home relatives.  Easy to use even for the one with significant dementia.  And we can see them and talk while we make dinner or whatever.  I don’t know if that would help, but just a random thought.

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3 hours ago, Penelope said:

Not trying to be contrarian, and I know I’m the one who put out the 0.2%, wow did I step into it, lol. It’s interesting how you used only the lower estimate of what I did write (admittedly too narrow) rather than the higher one, or the 0.4% from the recent study that I linked. 
 

Anyway. I think there would be more deaths without vaccines, that is undeniable. We cannot say millions. 

We really do not know how much population immunity we have. There are estimates, that is all. We have very little serology data, at least data that is public, and serology data is faulty: accuracy can be time-dependent as antibodies fade, and doesn’t account for innate immunity and T-cell responses that occur in response to infection but in the absence of antibodies, and what effect that may or may not be having on population immunity. 

 

Sorry skimming back through the thread!  I had to do some sleeping because I got way too absorbed here and it was really late.  I hope you don’t think I’m jumping on you - I was just interested by your stats as I hadn’t seen any recent IFR studies.  I don’t mean to be argumentative on purpose - I’m just interested.

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3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

It was, but the board cannot help correcting errors they see. I wouldn't share why on this board because I know I would get shot down and do not have the reasoning skills to rebut. So what this board wants is a good reason not the real reason why people are not.

This is probably true.  I’m pretty sure this board makes me want to check my facts more but I enjoy that.  I don’t have many irl outlets where I can do this kind of discussion.  I like to think humans are logical creatures whereas most likely many people are making more emotional decisions.  

 

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

I have looked at it, but I want more.

I also want to know who's funding the research, because there is a pretty high chance of biased research and biased reporting depending on who's doing it.

It’s not exactly a study it’s data that the Israeli Ministry of Health gathers about the population and provides to Pfizer.   It was a joint statement between the Israeli Ministry of Health and Pfizer.  Pfizer obviously do have a vested interested in the results being correct.  I do look forward to it being peer reviewed.  
 

I think the rapid decline in cases in both the UK and Israel are promising signs though that could be being driven by something unrelated to vaccination. 

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8 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This is probably true.  I’m pretty sure this board makes me want to check my facts more but I enjoy that.  I don’t have many irl outlets where I can do this kind of discussion.  I like to think humans are logical creatures whereas most likely many people are making more emotional decisions.  

 

Yep.  The posts where everyone talks about really investigating sources and what is true and what is not like anyone can do that. Maybe, but no one in my sphere does it. Number's posts make my head spin. I do not understand statistics. My oldest son liked a book called How to Lie with Statistics. It feels like you can manipulate them anyway you want and I do not have the math and science skills to figure it out.  I do not understand most of those posts on this thread. If they have numbers, I just shut down and close my eyes.  I bet there are many people like me.

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1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Yep.  The posts where everyone talks about really investigating sources and what is true and what is not like anyone can do that. Maybe, but no one in my sphere does it. Number's posts make my head spin. I do not understand statistics. My oldest son liked a book called How to Lie with Statistics. It feels like you can manipulate them anyway you want and I do not have the math and science skills to figure it out.  I do not understand most of those posts on this thread. If they have numbers, I just shut down and close my eyes.  I bet there are many people like me.

Yeah I hear you.  I’m ok with basic percentages and stuff but when people get into more detail I get lost.  I didn’t get a great grounding in statistics at school at all and I’m someone who likes math and was reasonably proficient in high school.  So I can totally see that if you’re a non mathy person it would feel kind of pointless to make sense of it.  On the other hand I can’t sing in tune at all and have to work really hard at instrumental music.  We all have our things.

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5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yep.  The posts where everyone talks about really investigating sources and what is true and what is not like anyone can do that. Maybe, but no one in my sphere does it. Number's posts make my head spin. I do not understand statistics. My oldest son liked a book called How to Lie with Statistics. It feels like you can manipulate them anyway you want and I do not have the math and science skills to figure it out.  I do not understand most of those posts on this thread. If they have numbers, I just shut down and close my eyes.  I bet there are many people like me.

There are definitely many people like you. Math education in this country is highly lamentable and is half the reason we're homeschooling my girls. 

But I don't know what to do about that, except teach some kids statistics 😞 . Quantitative data is the best way to get a hold of these kinds of phenomena. I'd be very happy to explain anything I post with numbers, because I'm pretty good at explaining in general. But I don't think one can avoid the numbers. 

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It’s been a while since I looked at IFR studies so I did look to see what was published recently.  There was this one.


 

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/report-34-IFR/

Using these age-specific estimates, we estimate the overall IFR in a typical low-income country, with a population structure skewed towards younger individuals, to be 0.23% (0.14-0.42 95% prediction interval range). In contrast, in a typical high income country, with a greater concentration of elderly individuals, we estimate the overall IFR to be 1.15% (0.78-1.79 95% prediction interval range). 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

There are definitely many people like you. Math education in this country is highly lamentable and is half the reason we're homeschooling my girls. 

But I don't know what to do about that, except teach some kids statistics 😞 . Quantitative data is the best way to get a hold of these kinds of phenomena. I'd be very happy to explain anything I post with numbers, because I'm pretty good at explaining in general. But I don't think one can avoid the numbers. 

I think it highlights the importance of scicomm people.  People that have ability to accurately interpret the math and science data and know how to communicate that effectively.  But who are also capable of understanding people’s emotional and other concerns and being able to convey the info in a non threatening and trustworthy way.  
 

of course that job becomes even harder in the face of active disinfo campaigns.

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Just now, Ausmumof3 said:

I think it highlights the importance of scicomm people.  People that have ability to accurately interpret the math and science data and know how to communicate that effectively.  But who are also capable of understanding people’s emotional and other concerns and being able to convey the info in a non threatening and trustworthy way.  

of course that job becomes even harder in the face of active disinfo campaigns.

I'm pretty good at that, lol. Not that I want the job. 

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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

ut I don't think one can avoid the numbers. 

LOL, I've done pretty well.  The last class I took was precalculus my junior year of high school.  I placed out of College Algebra in college which is all I had to have. 🙂 And I have completely forgotten everything I learned. I do not remember learning anything about statistics at all other than simple probability.  I outsourced all of the math and science during this one year homeschool experiment. 

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1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

LOL, I've done pretty well.  The last class I took was precalculus my junior year of high school.  I placed out of College Algebra in college which is all I had to have. 🙂 And I have completely forgotten everything I learned. I do not remember learning anything about statistics at all other than simple probability.  I outsourced all of the math and science during this one year homeschool experiment. 

Ah, yes, I'm sure you can avoid them in daily life! I know many people like you. Some of the parents of my Zoom class kids are like that 😉. But I don't think one can avoid numbers when reasoning about public health. At least, one can't avoid them and also expect to come to reliable conclusions. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, yes, I'm sure you can avoid them in daily life! I know many people like you. But I don't think one can avoid numbers when reasoning about public health. At least, one can't avoid them and also expect to come to reliable conclusions. 

I'm sure you are right. But those muscles have long atrophied. 

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1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

I'm sure you are right. But those muscles have long atrophied. 

Must be like my knowledge of Ukrainian 😂. I used to speak it, I swear. Then I learned English and it knocked every word out of my head. It's like I never knew it at all... 

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Actually, that is a helpful reminder to people who just see numbers/stats and get the implications that type of analysis is not a human inborn trait.  I do teach and tutor so I do have the patience and ability to explain, but I definitely fail at times.  Thanks for the reminder.  

I have thought since covid started the CDC/NIH should have a comm group putting out weekly videos with where we're at, what the latest research is showing, stats for lay people, etc.  They did an awful job initially with mask messaging, etc.   

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5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

LOL, I've done pretty well.  The last class I took was precalculus my junior year of high school.  I placed out of College Algebra in college which is all I had to have. 🙂 And I have completely forgotten everything I learned. I do not remember learning anything about statistics at all other than simple probability.  I outsourced all of the math and science during this one year homeschool experiment. 

I’m sorry your one year homeschool experiment didn’t work out. 😞

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Just now, Masers said:

I’m sorry your one year homeschool experiment didn’t work out. 😞

Me, too.   Sometimes I wish I could go back and start kindergarten all over again with ds.   

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2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 

I have thought since covid started the CDC/NIH should have a comm group putting out weekly videos with where we're at, what the latest research is showing, stats for lay people, etc.  They did an awful job initially with mask messaging, etc.   

That would have been AWESOME. 

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6 minutes ago, Masers said:

We’ve tried to do stuff like call while standing outside the window, but he is hard of hearing AND vision impaired and really needs to be in person. When we visited in the past, he did great If you are sitting close to him and speaking directly to him without background noise. Not so great otherwise. The sad thing is that he is still very cognitively with it, and a very social guy, so this has been super challenging. When he is isolated, he can’t even take anything from his room with him!!

This makes me so sad. I hope you can have good, frequent visits soon, complete with hugs.

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5 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Me, too.   Sometimes I wish I could go back and start kindergarten all over again with ds.   

What grade is he in? Only child?

it’s tough. I’d have made different choices, too.

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2 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

This makes me so sad. I hope you can have good, frequent visits soon, complete with hugs.

Thank you, I really appreciate that. I hope so, too. 

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9 minutes ago, Masers said:

Thanks! That’s a good idea...I’ll look into it. We’ve tried to do stuff like call while standing outside the window, but he is hard of hearing AND vision impaired and really needs to be in person. When we visited in the past, he did great If you are sitting close to him and speaking directly to him without background noise. Not so great otherwise. The sad thing is that he is still very cognitively with it, and a very social guy, so this has been super challenging. When he is isolated, he can’t even take anything from his room with him!! I hate it. And this is a good nursing home, too. We also live in a strict state, and the homes do set their own policies. The nursing home my sister works (same town) at has been open to family members for months, too. 😑

and despite these strict measures, there were still huge Covid outbreaks among residents. I think that was the kicker for me. Like, yeah, we’re going to lock you up and basically treat you like a prisoner, but it’s to keep you safe and protected from Covid...oh wait...you got it anyway, and we’re still going to keep those same measures in place way past the point of reason...

This is awful.   Seriously close to elder abuse. 

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Aw, how come? 

Well, he's 19 and he just moved out.   He was in public kindy for 3 days and I pulled him and homeschooled.  I've never regretted that, ever.   Those years (before high school, lol) were awesome.  🥰🥰🥰.   Now, he's grown, probably will be married next year, has a good job now and just  accepted an asst mgr position at another place.   I'm proud of who he's become.  But dang, I still look at him and see him as a 7 year old climbing up the stairs to his treehouse.  

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2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Well, he's 19 and he just moved out.   He was in public kindy for 3 days and I pulled him and homeschooled.  I've never regretted that, ever.   Those years (before high school, lol) were awesome.  🥰🥰🥰.   Now, he's grown, probably will be married next year, has a good job now and just  accepted an asst mgr position at another place.   I'm proud of who he's become.  But dang, I still look at him and see him as a 7 year old climbing up the stairs to his treehouse.  

Ah, that's very bittersweet. I get it. Mine are still little and I should try to enjoy it instead of constantly being frustrated with them 😉 . 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, that's very bittersweet. I get it. Mine are still little and I should try to enjoy it instead of constantly being frustrated with them 😉 . 

When they're 19, you won't remember too much of the frustration.  Or maybe I've blocked most of it out. 😆😆😆

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6 hours ago, Penelope said:

Vaccines use fetal cells in testing and development (mRNA) or to actually grow the viral vector (JandJ) since it is engineered to not replicate on its own.

For clarity: neither Moderna or Pfizer used fetal cell lines in the development or production of their vaccines. They did use them in some of their testing.

J&J used them in development, production, and testing.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/update-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-and-abortion-derived-cell-lines/

I am as pro-life as they come and I look at it this way: if a person died during the commission of a crime, I would not object to their organs being used to save someone else (and I doubt many other pro-lifers would, either). The human beings from whom the initial stem cells were obtained were unjustly killed 40 to 50 years ago. That, in my view, was a moral crime. There is nothing that can be done about that now. They can, however, be used to save others. 

Edited by MercyA
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52 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yep.  The posts where everyone talks about really investigating sources and what is true and what is not like anyone can do that. Maybe, but no one in my sphere does it. Number's posts make my head spin. I do not understand statistics. My oldest son liked a book called How to Lie with Statistics. It feels like you can manipulate them anyway you want and I do not have the math and science skills to figure it out.  I do not understand most of those posts on this thread. If they have numbers, I just shut down and close my eyes.  I bet there are many people like me.

I get that - her posts make my head hurt often too, lol. Which is why I'm careful where I'm getting my info from - have other people, who ARE good at statistics, saying these are good studies? Was it published in a reputable journal and peer reviewed? BECAUSE I'm not great at stats I am even more hesitant to trust a random person with no outside vetting if they start saying something very different than most other scientists. Does that make sense? Like, If I don't understand Russian and need a translator, I'm going to go with one from a trusted company with standards for who they hire, vs just some person that says "trust me, I know Russian", you know?

I can read well, and I know basic biology terminology from going to school for veterinary technology, so I feel comfortable reading the studies, I just don't trust myself to crunch the numbers on my own. 

15 minutes ago, MercyA said:

For clarity: neither Moderna or Pfizer used fetal cell lines in the development or production of their vaccines. They did use them in some of their testing.

J&J used them in development, production, and testing.

Source: https://lozierinstitute.org/update-covid-19-vaccine-candidates-and-abortion-derived-cell-lines/

I am as pro-life as they come and I look at it this way: if a person died during the commission of a crime, I would not object to their organs being used to save someone else (and I doubt many other pro-lifers would, either). The human beings from whom the initial stem cells were obtained were unjustly killed 40 to 50 years ago. That, in my view, was a moral crime. There is nothing that can be done about that now. They can, however, be used to save others. 

That is a fantastic analogy! I've never heard anyone put it that way, but it makes so much sense. If a person is murdered, I wouldn't say that their organs can't be donated...and that really is similar. 

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