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3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

Same experience with my kid with autoimmune diseases - doctors were all of the opinion that a vaccine might trigger a flare, but not as badly as getting the disease (this was in regards to vaccines in general, not this one in specific)

- early on we didn't have data on the immunity part, but now the numbers look really good for it. Just took a while to get those numbers. Pfizer is looking to be 94% effective at preventing ALL infection, even asymptomatic. https://www.abc10.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/new-study-shows-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-is-94-percent-effective-in-preventing-asymptomatic-infection/77-5df72296-e47b-496f-88c9-8b3c1e7b0ab4

- well, there are a lot more reports of people dying after Covid the disease than Covid the vaccine, so that would be my reasoning as to why to get the vaccine. 

-I do not believe there are fetal cells in any of them? Johnson and Johnson was 'developed" using fetal cell lines, but Pfizer and Moderna were not - but after coming up with the vaccine they did test them on cells that were from fetal cell lines. https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-do-the-covid-19-vaccines-contain-aborted-fetal-cells

But there haven't yet been as many people who have been vaccinated as there are those who have had Covid. And the majority of people who died from Covid were elderly and/or unwell. That has not been the case with those who died after receiving the vaccine, certainly not with my friend's mother who was perfectly healthy, who got the second shot and a few hours later lay down for a nap and never woke up.

And I don't even know why a vaccine was released that looked "really good" for actual immunity. That's the point, isn't it?

Yes, indeed, some of the vaccines are made with aborted feel cells.

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For what it's worth, my husband studies toxic torts -- so, essentially, products that turned out to be dangerous -- and he maintains that the things to *really* worry about are (1) things that you con

re scale of vaccinations vs Covid confirmed cases Responding just to this one part of your post-  As of yesterday, there have been 137 million vaccine doses into US arms:https://www.bloomb

For me it’s pretty simple.  Covid is known to cause death, and the mechanisms by which it does are known.  If someone has Covid and dies in the way that Covid is known to kill then Covid is a likely c

9 minutes ago, Ellie said:

But there haven't yet been as many people who have been vaccinated as there are those who have had Covid. And the majority of people who died from Covid were elderly and/or unwell. That has not been the case with those who died after receiving the vaccine, certainly not with my friend's mother who was perfectly healthy, who got the second shot and a few hours later lay down for a nap and never woke up.

And I don't even know why a vaccine was released that looked "really good" for actual immunity. That's the point, isn't it?

Yes, indeed, some of the vaccines are made with aborted feel cells.

But we can compare rates, and look at death rates in those vaccinated vs not vaccinated, etc. That was what I was referring to. We've vaccinated millions.

As to why it was released before we knew for sure it prevented asymptomatic infection, that is because we did know it prevented hospitalization and death. Which is huge. Why wouldn't we release a vaccine that has been shown to be incredibly effective at preventing death and serious illness? We do that with other vaccines, like pertussis. Turns out, this one also prevents infection totally in almost all people, so yay. 

That certainly doesn't mean you need to get it - but I wanted to address the idea that it doesn't prevent infection or provide immunity. It does. 

As for made with aborted cells, I guess it depends what you mean. Moderna and Pfizer didn't use them to make the vaccine, but did do some efficacy tests  using cells lines that originated from an abortion in the 1970s. 

Edited by ktgrok
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Dd (18) doesn't want to get it because she doesn't like vaccines and frequently has bad reactions.  I'm going to encourage her when she's home this summer because I think having the vaccine will make her life much easier in the future.  She's a college student and has to fly to/from school, her college may end up requiring it, companies she wants to intern/work for might require it, etc.  

 

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5 hours ago, Bambam said:

I'm in the not right now, need more long term data camp. I'm not against taking the vaccine, but I will need much more long term data than the short amount currently available. 

Which apparently means several people will unfriend me since I won't line up instantly to get my vaccine as soon as available as that means I am not taking this seriously (learned this from reading part of the other thread).  
 

I had to quit reading the other thread. It had a ridiculous amount of judgement and negativity in it.  I don't have any choice. I have to work, and my work doesn't allow me to be cloistered at home.  I've taken every precaution I can possibly think of, wearing KN95s 8+ hours a day being the most burdensome, but apparently for some folks in that thread, I'm not careful enough.  Frankly, no one needs that kind of judgement.   

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26 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

is there evidence that Pfizer or Moderna are more likely to cause problems with RA?

I don’t know, I’m not in the public health business. I’m in the making decisions for my family business. So if you’re asking for data, I’m not your gal. 

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1 minute ago, Halftime Hope said:

I had to quit reading the other thread. It had a ridiculous amount of judgement and negativity in it.  I don't have any choice. I have to work, and my work doesn't allow me to be cloistered at home.  I've taken every precaution I can possibly think of, wearing KN95s 8+ hours a day being the most burdensome, but apparently for some folks in that thread, I'm not careful enough.  Frankly, no one needs that kind of judgement.   

I have done the normal precautions also (I don't work outside the home, so I have a much easier time of it than you). I have lost two close friends to COVID, so I totally get the being angry about that. But I've done what I could, and that is all I can do. But, yes, I stopped reading the other thread too.  Hopefully it got better, but unless someone tells me to skip to page X, I'll never know!

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3 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I don’t know, I’m not in the public health business. I’m in the making decisions for my family business. So if you’re asking for data, I’m not your gal. 

I was just asking why you were wanting him to get J&J vs the mRNA ones - I have a family member with autoimmune diseases and when he eventually can be vaccinated I will need to figure out which is best for him. So wanted to know your thought process - not trying to be  PIA, just truly wanted to know. 

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8 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I had to quit reading the other thread. It had a ridiculous amount of judgement and negativity in it.  I don't have any choice. I have to work, and my work doesn't allow me to be cloistered at home.  I've taken every precaution I can possibly think of, wearing KN95s 8+ hours a day being the most burdensome, but apparently for some folks in that thread, I'm not careful enough.  Frankly, no one needs that kind of judgement.   

People are saying you shouldn't go to work? On this board? In general, or in regards to a quarantine after contact or illness, or? I'm on the far side of cautious and have not seen or heard of anyone saying people should quit their jobs or anything like that. My son works outside the home, with the public....there are some jobs that are that way. 

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Dh is high risk and has been advised by two of his specialist docs not to get vaxxed at this time because his father developed guillain-barre after receiving an influenza vaccine.

We have a plan for treatment should any of us in the family contract COVID, so I'm not particularly worried, although we are taking serious precautions to avoid it if possible. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Bambam said:

I have done the normal precautions also (I don't work outside the home, so I have a much easier time of it than you). I have lost two close friends to COVID, so I totally get the being angry about that. But I've done what I could, and that is all I can do. But, yes, I stopped reading the other thread too.  Hopefully it got better, but unless someone tells me to skip to page X, I'll never know!

Dh lost his best friend to COVID, so it's not as though we've been untouched by it either.  

Best wishes, Bambam.  :-) 

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16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I was just asking why you were wanting him to get J&J vs the mRNA ones - I have a family member with autoimmune diseases and when he eventually can be vaccinated I will need to figure out which is best for him. So wanted to know your thought process - not trying to be  PIA, just truly wanted to know. 

You may wish to follow the COVaRiPAD or Octave studies of vaccine responses in patients with autoimmune diseases.

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15 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

People are saying you shouldn't go to work? On this board? In general, or in regards to a quarantine after contact or illness, or? I'm on the far side of cautious and have not seen or heard of anyone saying people should quit their jobs or anything like that. My son works outside the home, with the public....there are some jobs that are that way. 

Feel free to read the thread.  People complaining about every damn thing, and casting all kinds of aspersions on others who don't do e.x.a.c.t.l.y. what they do.  

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I was just asking why you were wanting him to get J&J vs the mRNA ones - I have a family member with autoimmune diseases and when he eventually can be vaccinated I will need to figure out which is best for him. So wanted to know your thought process - not trying to be  PIA, just truly wanted to know. 

The thinking is that the J&J is not as taxing on the immune system, which is already overactive in autoimmune disorders. And so the likelihood of an attack being triggered is less. 

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Just now, madteaparty said:

The thinking is that the J&J is not as taxing on the immune system, which is already overactive in autoimmune disorders. And so the likelihood of an attack being triggered is less. 

This was what my daughter’s pediatrician said. She told us to wait for J&J because dd has had facial swelling and has had allergic reactions to vaccines in the past. 

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re scale of vaccinations vs Covid confirmed cases

48 minutes ago, Ellie said:

But there haven't yet been as many people who have been vaccinated as there are those who have had Covid....

Responding just to this one part of your post- 

As of yesterday, there have been 137 million vaccine doses into US arms:https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/

And there've been 30 million confirmed cases of Covid, of which 545k died https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#hospitalizations

I have not seen substantiated data on *any* deaths directly linked to the vaccine- not arguing that there haven't been cases of deaths *after* vaccination- particularly given that rollout began with the oldest segments of the population, there surely have been; and it's appropriate and necessary to keep scrutinizing those cases carefully. 

But we're starting to see scale. With more than 4 times as many vaccines into US arms as US cases, if vaccine deaths came anywhere close to approaching Covid deaths, we'd be at somewhere near 2.5 million vaccine deaths. Obviously we haven't seen anything like that, at all.

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33 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

Feel free to read the thread.  People complaining about every damn thing, and casting all kinds of aspersions on others who don't do e.x.a.c.t.l.y. what they do.  

 

 

 

If we mean the anger thread, I  have read it, and didn't see anyone saying people should quit their jobs. 

30 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

The thinking is that the J&J is not as taxing on the immune system, which is already overactive in autoimmune disorders. And so the likelihood of an attack being triggered is less. 

Hmm...of course, that is probably also why it is less effective...sigh. 

My son has not had reactions to vaccines, but does have very very significant and scary reactions to illness, so for him, I'll likely want the most effective, but I can see why that calculation may be different based on what autoimmune disease on has, history, etc. Interestingly, my other son, who does have a history of reaction to the flu vaccine, had it the easiest with the Covid vaccine compared to DH and I. Go figure!

Also, I'm sure my thinking is partly influenced by personal experience -I don't know anyone who has had a lifelong complication of a vaccine personally (I know it happens, I just don't know anyone personally) but I my ex husband died from cardiac damage believed to be triggered by a viral infection, and my son has brain inflammation from viral and bacterial infections. So those seem scarier, personally. Someone with a different life experience would, I'm sure, have a different gut reaction to the risks. 

Edited by ktgrok
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Dh has had his first dose and I get my first dose next week.

I’m actually going back and forth on which one my young adults should get. They do whichever I suggest. One has had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a baby but nothing since, and the other has POTS and autism (if they have a bad reaction it would be tough).  There are some mass vaccinations with the J&J one going on through April so I may just schedule them for that one. 

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1 hour ago, madteaparty said:

The thinking is that the J&J is not as taxing on the immune system, which is already overactive in autoimmune disorders. And so the likelihood of an attack being triggered is less. 

never mind

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

If we mean the anger thread, I  have read it, and didn't see anyone saying people should quit their jobs. 

Hmm...of course, that is probably also why it is less effective...sigh. 

My son has not had reactions to vaccines, but does have very very significant and scary reactions to illness, so for him, I'll likely want the most effective, but I can see why that calculation may be different based on what autoimmune disease on has, history, etc. Interestingly, my other son, who does have a history of reaction to the flu vaccine, had it the easiest with the Covid vaccine compared to DH and I. Go figure!

Also, I'm sure my thinking is partly influenced by personal experience -I don't know anyone who has had a lifelong complication of a vaccine personally (I know it happens, I just don't know anyone personally) but I my ex husband died from cardiac damage believed to be triggered by a viral infection, and my son has brain inflammation from viral and bacterial infections. So those seem scarier, personally. Someone with a different life experience would, I'm sure, have a different gut reaction to the risks. 

Ktgrok, I didn't say that anyone said I should quit my job, you extrapolated that.  But the things that put me at a slightly higher risk because I'm doing a job are things that people were complaining about.  Being around other people - check. Being out and about - check.  Having interaction with people who are not in my pod - check.  

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ellie said:

.

  • Because why would I get a vaccine that might not keep me from getting the disease at all when there are already documented reports of people dying after receiving the vaccine. Not anaphylactic, but just going to sleep and dying.
  •  

Just to address this issue.  I am not saying that no one has does from the vaccine.  Just that today again I talked with a dear friend that is very front line in covid....running immunization clinics, working as a doc in ICU covid wards, researching and in family practice.....and yes working way too many hours since this started.

She said , yes, she has had patient die after receiving the vaccine but they were all patients who were already terminally ill and they died from those things, not the vaccine.   They were given the vaccine to help protect others and allow family to visit in hospice, etc.

So I would consider carefully the situations of those that died after the vaccine.   In general, every day life, some people do just randomly pass away and many of these others were already terminally ill.

 

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5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

As to why it was released before we knew for sure it prevented asymptomatic infection, that is because we did know it prevented hospitalization and death. Which is huge. Why wouldn't we release a vaccine that has been shown to be incredibly effective at preventing death and serious illness? We do that with other vaccines, like pertussis. Turns out, this one also prevents infection totally in almost all people, so yay. 

That certainly doesn't mean you need to get it - but I wanted to address the idea that it doesn't prevent infection or provide immunity. It does. 

As for made with aborted cells, I guess it depends what you mean. Moderna and Pfizer didn't use them to make the vaccine, but did do some efficacy tests  using cells lines that originated from an abortion in the 1970s. 

Why release a vaccine and make everyone believe it is The Answer, that now they safe from actually getting Covid in the first place? You know that's what everyone believes, because that's what TPTB have led us to believe.
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Yes, Moderna and Pfizer (as well as J&J) did use fetal cells in their vaccines, but as you say, it was a long time ago.

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https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/public-health/why-coronavirus-variants-might-undercut-vaccine-efficacy  I had mentioned above that waiting for a 2.0 version of the vaccines could be a reason to wait. In my mind it factors in, since I really need to wait a bit anyway. This article seems to be saying they're working on updated versions.

5 hours ago, Ellie said:

But there haven't yet been as many people who have been vaccinated as there are those who have had Covid. And the majority of people who died from Covid were elderly and/or unwell.

I think I'm missing the logic here. The thing a person in their 40s (me, maybe op) is weighing is going to be chance of long covid vs. chance of vaccine reactions. 

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3 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Yes, Moderna and Pfizer (as well as J&J) did use fetal cells in their vaccines, but as you say, it was a long time ago.

https://www.health.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/COVID%20Vaccine%20Page/COVID-19_Vaccine_Fetal_Cell_Handout.pdf

I was kind of surprised by the info here. It's rather nuanced and people can sort out for themselves what that means for their ethics with each shot if they want to take it.

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We are healthy and have already had it, so we are in the "not right now" camp.  The mRNA technology doesn't have a great track record over the last twenty years...with the first SARS or with the gene therapy that was created after their first application didn't perform well.  The antibody-dependent enhancement was not, that I can find, specifically studied as an outcome in the mRNA studies for SARS-CoV-2, as the animal challenge trials were not done but were the whole reason the other mRNA jabs stalled at Phase 1 trials.  Now that the deaths are starting to rise again, coincidentally after so many have taken the jab, I would like to see better research concerning the many facets of the long-term outcomes of this never-before approved technology.  

It's strange that the people with many underlying conditions, who were already very unwell, and died with a possible Covid exposure/confirmed PCR test, died from covid, but the people who died shortly after getting the Moderna or Pfizer shot died from anything but the shot.  It's concerning that the questioning voices of doctors, research scientists, lawyers, etc. are being silenced.  I think that if people want to get it while it is under an EUA, they should be able to as long as they have informed consent.  To make a not-fully tested biologic mandatory to live life, especially when it is readily available to people and protects the recipient, is terrifying.

Edited by hopeallgoeswell
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10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.health.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/COVID%20Vaccine%20Page/COVID-19_Vaccine_Fetal_Cell_Handout.pdf

I was kind of surprised by the info here. It's rather nuanced and people can sort out for themselves what that means for their ethics with each shot if they want to take it.

Unless they become mandatory and exemptions no longer exist.

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1 hour ago, Ellie said:

Why release a vaccine and make everyone believe it is The Answer, that now they safe from actually getting Covid in the first place? You know that's what everyone believes, because that's what TPTB have led us to believe.
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Yes, Moderna and Pfizer (as well as J&J) did use fetal cells in their vaccines, but as you say, it was a long time ago.

According to the data from 600,000 vaccinated people in Israel, vaccination with the Pfizer vaccine does prevent the vast majority of people from "getting covid in the first place." And it prevents nearly everyone from getting seriously ill or dying.

And no, Moderna and Pfizer (and Novavax) do not use fetal cells IN their vaccines — fetal cells are not used at any point in the manufacturing process. A fetal cell line was used to TEST whether human cells could produce the spike protein, but they have no role whatsoever in the production of the vaccine itself.

J&J and Astra Zeneca do use a fetal cell line in the manufacture of the vaccine (to grow the virus), although there are no actual fetal cells in the vaccine itself. 

 

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My husband planned to wait, but after the entire rest of the family decided to get the vaccine, he did too so that we'd all be in the same boat immunity-wise (for however long it'll last!).

It's funny because I'm usually vaccine-cautious. Kids were all on a delayed schedule (two of them reacted very strongly to vaccines as kids, so we went slowly) and I avoided the new ones.

But, after a year of this combined with the fact that all my kids are full-fledged adults now and each have plans to travel internationally within the next year - we all pretty much showed up on the first available day possible to get these shots. (and luckily, the two kids who had strong reactions to certain vaccines as children didn't have problems with this one at all!)

InLaws still haven't gotten it and I don't think they are planning on it at all. And I know several friends who are trying to wait because they really want more time to have passed, which I totally understand...

But I'd have walked a hundred miles over hot, rocky terrain barefoot to get to that vaccine at the earliest possibly opportunity. I am So Over All Of This and ready for life to start again. If this shot can give me a glimpse of that - I am THERE.

Edited by easypeasy
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7 hours ago, Ellie said:

Why release a vaccine and make everyone believe it is The Answer, that now they safe from actually getting Covid in the first place? You know that's what everyone believes, because that's what TPTB have led us to believe.

If that is what you "heard" from your news sources earlier on then I would consider finding and following different ones. Because that's not at all what I "heard" from mine. It's why so many of us were very happy to see the Israeli study released earlier this month that said the Pfizer vaccine does indeed confer strong protection from even asymptomatic infection. Earlier on we were told (or at least the news sources I follow and the studies I read said) the vaccines should prevent serious illness. Now we know more.

 

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10 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Ktgrok, I didn't say that anyone said I should quit my job, you extrapolated that.  But the things that put me at a slightly higher risk because I'm doing a job are things that people were complaining about.  Being around other people - check. Being out and about - check.  Having interaction with people who are not in my pod - check.  

 

 

Well, you are exrapolating that people think you should not be working, or are including you in the people they are angry at. No one has said in that thread or elsewhere on this board, that I've seen, that showing up to work and masking is what they are upset about. That's not at all what people were talking about. Truly. 

7 hours ago, Ellie said:

Why release a vaccine and make everyone believe it is The Answer, that now they safe from actually getting Covid in the first place? You know that's what everyone believes, because that's what TPTB have led us to believe.
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Yes, Moderna and Pfizer (as well as J&J) did use fetal cells in their vaccines, but as you say, it was a long time ago.

It was released to keep people from becoming seriously ill and dying. That's a pretty normal goal, and a laudable one. And it does that. Exactly what it was said to do - prevent almost all serious or fatal cases of Covid. Later, as data became more clear, they were able to say it prevents most asymptomatic infection as well - good for preventing transmission. But even if all it ever could do was keep people from becoming seriously ill and dying, that's a good thing, and worth having. 

And again, Moderna and Pfizer did not use fetal cell lines in their vaccines. After the vaccines were created they tested the vaccine on cells from one of the fetal cell lines. That is not the same thing as using them IN the vaccine. You may still not be okay with it ethically, but it is important to be clear and not to spread the idea that there are fetal cells or cells from a fetal cell line in the vaccine. 

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8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

https://www.health.nd.gov/sites/www/files/documents/COVID%20Vaccine%20Page/COVID-19_Vaccine_Fetal_Cell_Handout.pdf

I was kind of surprised by the info here. It's rather nuanced and people can sort out for themselves what that means for their ethics with each shot if they want to take it.

Yes, good info that clarifies things. 

Also, this quote regarding Moderna and Pfizer (The Catholic Church also approves the use of J&J as morally justifiable but would suggest IF there is a choice, the first two are better ethically speaking)

"Further, the Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities, a committee within the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, has stated: “neither Pfizer nor Moderna used an abortion-derived cell line in the development or production of the vaccine. However, such a cell line was used to test the efficacy of both vaccines. Thus, while neither vaccine is completely free from any use of abortion-derived cell lines, in these two cases the use is very remote from the initial evil of the abortion…one may receive any of the clinically recommended vaccines in good conscience with the assurance that reception of such vaccines does not involve immoral cooperation in abortion.”

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8 hours ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

...It's  strange that the people with many underlying conditions, who were already very unwell, and died with a possible Covid exposure/confirmed PCR test, died from covid, but the people who died shortly after getting the Moderna or Pfizer shot died from anything but the shot.  It's concerning that the questioning voices of doctors, research scientists, lawyers, etc. are being silenced.  I think that if people want to get it while it is under an EUA, they should be able to as long as they have informed consent.  To make a not-fully tested biologic mandatory to live life, especially when it is readily available to people and protects the recipient, is terrifying.

Who is being silenced?

(Debate is not silencing.)

 

Who is *mandating* vaccination under EUA?

(Family / friends not comfortable resuming close indoor contact is not mandating.)

 

i am am genuinely interested. I have seen no indication of either. A lot of tetchiness, sure. But that is different.

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23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It was released to keep people from becoming seriously ill and dying. That's a pretty normal goal, and a laudable one. And it does that. Exactly what it was said to do - prevent almost all serious or fatal cases of Covid. Later, as data became more clear, they were able to say it prevents most asymptomatic infection as well - good for preventing transmission. But even if all it ever could do was keep people from becoming seriously ill and dying, that's a good thing, and worth having. 

And again, Moderna and Pfizer did not use fetal cell lines in their vaccines. After the vaccines were created they tested the vaccine on cells from one of the fetal cell lines. That is not the same thing as using them IN the vaccine. You may still not be okay with it ethically, but it is important to be clear and not to spread the idea that there are fetal cells or cells from a fetal cell line in the vaccine. 

It is being marketed as preventing people from getting covid. It is not being marketed as hey y'all, you probably won't get as sick as your friend's mother who had to be vented, even though there are serious side effects, including death, even if you're a healthy person. Yes, Modern and Pfizer used fetal cells, although apparently in a way that was not morally objectionable. The USCCB has said that all of the vaccines, including J&J, are acceptable under the circumstances.

Also, I'm really finished discussing this here. I don't feel like including links to all the things I've read and include second-hand accounts of discussions I've had with medical professionals who have no plans to be vaccinated because [insert the long discussions]. I also don't feel the need to be morally corrected.

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16 minutes ago, Ellie said:

It is being marketed as preventing people from getting covid. It is not being marketed as hey y'all, you probably won't get as sick as your friend's mother who had to be vented, even though there are serious side effects, including death, even if you're a healthy person. Yes, Modern and Pfizer used fetal cells, although apparently in a way that was not morally objectionable. The USCCB has said that all of the vaccines, including J&J, are acceptable under the circumstances.

Also, I'm really finished discussing this here. I don't feel like including links to all the things I've read and include second-hand accounts of discussions I've had with medical professionals who have no plans to be vaccinated because [insert the long discussions]. I also don't feel the need to be morally corrected.

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to morally correct you - I even said that the clarifications on cell lines didn't mean you would be morally ok with it. I just wanted to clarify the info. Even your link in your post says the same thing I was trying to say,. "While Moderna and Pfizer used them in testing only, J&J also used them in the production of its vaccine."

If that makes them morally unacceptable to you, that I can totally understand. I was trying to clarify for anyone reading, that they don't contain fetal cells or cells from fetal lines in the vaccine, and that the Moderna and Pfizer ones were tested on cells from fetal lines, but not developed from them. That may make a difference for people reading this thread, and it may or may not make a difference to you, I wasn't sure.

And I've seen no marketing for the vaccines, so not sure what is meant by that - we don't do TV with ads so maybe I'm missing something. But the info I've seen from news reports is that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines prevent almost all serious illness and death. Which is true. And now that at least some of the vaccines prevent infection and transmission. 

Edited by ktgrok
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1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Who is being silenced?

(Debate is not silencing.)

 

Who is *mandating* vaccination under EUA?

(Family / friends not comfortable resuming close indoor contact is not mandating.)

 

i am am genuinely interested. I have seen no indication of either. A lot of tetchiness, sure. But that is different.

https://www.rutgers.edu/news/rutgers-require-covid-19-vaccine-students

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29 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I have been following this story.  I've read that most Rutgers students are fine with the requirement, but I don't know that it would stand up to a court challenge.  

This was on my ds' school's website (Texas A&M): 

As the different versions of the vaccine are currently approved only under a Food and Drug Administration Emergency Use Authorization, they currently cannot be required of employees or students. 

Maybe this is a state law issue.  A&M is urging everyone to get the vaccine, and will provide it on campus as soon as they can get doses.  TX opens all adult tiers tomorrow. 

We'll see.  The word "currently" looms large.  

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At the moment,  not.  While I've had concerns about the potential reactions and efficacy of the various vaccines... the biggest reason for me to hold off is my current health challenge and how I'm responding to the meds I'm on to treat it.  (Incl. compromised immune system. )  

My dr brought it up when I saw her a few weeks ago, asked me about it, and didn't have anything to say when I told her that. 

Depending how this treatment works,  I'll probably revisit it at some point.

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1 hour ago, Halftime Hope said:

I don't think courts will (or should, for that matter) sustain actual mandates while the vaccine is still under EUA... even where there are broad exemptions for medical and religious claims for exemptions as the Rutgers press release makes clear there will be.

But I also believe the vaccines will be out of EUA by September, when Rutgers' plan would go into effect. What ordinarily causes the ordinary FDA approval process to take so long, is that it takes a very long time to get to the required SCALE of data when developers are relying on trial volunteers. In this case, there are already 137 million cases of doses into arms -- there's literally no other development effort that's ever had that much vaccine effect data that fast. We may not know how long immunity *holds* but we will have vastly more on *safety* than for other vaccines that have regular approval.

I agree that true mandates under EUA are troubling, but I expect we'll be out of that EUA very shortly. And *lots* of colleges mandate meningitis and other vaccines, even before a pandemic raged through our midst. 

 

 

 

ETA DoraBora got there first and more succinctly, lol

Edited by Pam in CT
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No. Several relatives have and so far have done relatively ok - reactions for some, even 3 days long for fairly big reactions (way more than typical for other vaccines). But I know second hand of deaths happening in apparently well people.  
 

I personally won’t get Moderna or Pfizer (which relatives got one or the other) in any case because of particular personal allergies.

 

At start of CV19, I knew people particularly in NYC who got really really sick. But since information about Vitamin D3 and Ivermectin (Pierre Kory etc) etc came out and got used by people I know, no one I know seems to be having severe or even really illness at all from it any more.   Including in situations that put them around quite a lot of other people. 
 

   

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3 minutes ago, Pen said:

No. Several relatives have and so far have done relatively ok - reactions for some, even 3 days long for fairly big reactions (way more than typical for other vaccines). But I know second hand of deaths happening in apparently well people.  
 

I personally won’t get Moderna or Pfizer (which relatives got one or the other) in any case because of particular personal allergies.

 

At start of CV19, I knew people particularly in NYC who got really really sick. But since information about Vitamin D3 and Ivermectin (Pierre Kory etc) etc came out and got used by people I know, no one I know seems to be having severe or even really illness at all from it any more.   Including in situations that put them around quite a lot of other people. 
 

   

 

 

 

 


 

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5 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

Other posters have already brought up the EUA element but many colleges require vaccination with no exemptions. Public schools have the same requirements but most states allow personal exemptions. The difference between college and public schools being that children are required to attend school but not college. Going to college is a choice. 

This is the requirement for Arizona State University. 

Quote

All students born after January 1, 1957 are required to meet the following MMR immunization requirement before class registration:

  • Option 1 - Provide proof of two measles vaccinations (one of which must be dated after 1979), first dose given at age 12 months or later. Second dose given at least 28 days after the first.
  • Option 2 - Provide a copy of lab test results showing positive immunity to Rubeola (Measles) lgG or MMR lgG.
  • Submit the MMR Immunization Form (PDF) along with your proof of vaccination or lab results showing positive immunity to Measles. You will continue to see a MMR Immunization hold under "Priority Tasks" on your My ASU account until your measles information is received and verified. Processing time is within 2 business days.
  • Read additional information about MMR.

New Student Immunization Requirements

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7 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

And I've seen no marketing for the vaccines, so not sure what is meant by that - we don't do TV with ads so maybe I'm missing something. But the info I've seen from news reports is that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines prevent almost all serious illness and death. Which is true. And now that at least some of the vaccines prevent infection and transmission. 

We've been watching a lot of commercial tv lately thanks to March Madness (among other things).  I've seen ads that encourage vaccination with whatever vaccine is available but absolutely no ads for any specific vaccine.  I'm not sure it would be allowed under the EUA, there are fairly strict laws regarding the marketing of pharmaceuticals. 

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I don't think courts will (or should, for that matter) sustain actual mandates while the vaccine is still under EUA... even where there are broad exemptions for medical and religious claims for exemptions as the Rutgers press release makes clear there will be.

But I also believe the vaccines will be out of EUA by September, when Rutgers' plan would go into effect. What ordinarily causes the ordinary FDA approval process to take so long, is that it takes a very long time to get to the required SCALE of data when developers are relying on trial volunteers. In this case, there are already 137 million cases of doses into arms -- there's literally no other development effort that's ever had that much vaccine effect data that fast. We may not know how long immunity *holds* but we will have vastly more on *safety* than for other vaccines that have regular approval.

I agree that true mandates under EUA are troubling, but I expect we'll be out of that EUA very shortly. And *lots* of colleges mandate meningitis and other vaccines, even before a pandemic raged through our midst. 

 

 

 

ETA DoraBora got there first and more succinctly, lol

NJ is one of the states that requires quite a few vaccines, including meningitis, for college students, especially those living on campus.

I'm sure the EUA status causes issues with mandates, but I agree with you that it's going to be out of the EUA by September.   I'm sure this is being announced in anticipation of it being available under usual approval processes.   

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5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I don't think courts will (or should, for that matter) sustain actual mandates while the vaccine is still under EUA... even where there are broad exemptions for medical and religious claims for exemptions as the Rutgers press release makes clear there will be.

But I also believe the vaccines will be out of EUA by September, when Rutgers' plan would go into effect.

 

Maybe, but I don't see how they can require it before the vaccines are out of EUA.  If that doesn't happen until the fall or later, aren't they are requiring students to be part of the drug trial?

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1 hour ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Other posters have already brought up the EUA element but many colleges require vaccination with no exemptions. Public schools have the same requirements but most states allow personal exemptions. The difference between college and public schools being that children are required to attend school but not college. Going to college is a choice. 

This is the requirement for Arizona State University. 

New Student Immunization Requirements

I understand the required vaccine policy, but I think it's wrong to require students to take a vaccine that isn't yet FDA approved.  Yes, college is optional, but their mandate would apply to students who are only one or two semesters from graduation, leaving them with little choice but to take the vaccine even if they don't want to take that risk.

 

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We are waiting, but at the moment we don’t qualify to get it anyways.  We haven’t had the virus either.  Dd18 starts college in the fall and is seriously considering getting the J&J vaccine before she goes to avoid getting sick or quarantined if it gets bad again.  We’ve talked about the pros and cons of the new vaccines, so I feel good about letting her make the decision for herself.

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On 3/27/2021 at 10:53 AM, sassenach said:

Most (maybe all?) of the people I know who aren't getting it don't do other vaccines either. It seems like most people who are selective with vaccines (me) decided to go ahead and get it. But those who don't do any vaccine (and I'm not going to degrade them with "anti-vax" because that's such a charged word and I know their stories and they have legit reasons behind their decisions) are certainly not doing this one.

I know many people that put the flu shot in a special category and do not get it because they believe that getting the flu confers better immunity. (I am pretty sure this is incorrect.) Some people believe that the covid shots aren't as good as natural immunity, but that is false--vaccine immunity is superior by multiples of times. No, I don't have a link, but if you follow any reliable epidemiologist page, they will have one.

On 3/27/2021 at 10:54 AM, PeterPan said:

I wear Happy Masks and our state numbers are so low that the likelihood of you getting it even if you didn't mask is pretty low. 

Just noting that our numbers are not low. Most of the state is graded as red. We had our biggest one day case increase in 21 days. Our current "lower" rate is where it was just before it all went south in the fall.  

21 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I was just asking why you were wanting him to get J&J vs the mRNA ones - I have a family member with autoimmune diseases and when he eventually can be vaccinated I will need to figure out which is best for him. So wanted to know your thought process - not trying to be  PIA, just truly wanted to know. 

I know someone that has HORRIBLE reactions to vaccines for an unknown reason. Getting one shot could mean one horrible reaction instead of two since it's basically a given that she will not be well for days and days afterward. (At the same time, I do wonder if because the other vaccines have a different technology, it could lessen the chances, but it's awfully hard to know since the reason she reacts is unknown.)

20 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Dh has had his first dose and I get my first dose next week.

I’m actually going back and forth on which one my young adults should get. They do whichever I suggest. One has had a bad reaction to a vaccine as a baby but nothing since, and the other has POTS and autism (if they have a bad reaction it would be tough).  There are some mass vaccinations with the J&J one going on through April so I may just schedule them for that one. 

If you get data on shots for people with POTS, will you start a thread with a link? I know someone looking for this exact information. Even your experience would be helpful, but studies, recommendations from reputable doctors/organizations, etc. would help. I had hoped to find a statement from Dysautonomia International, but I haven't seen anything except about Covid itself.

19 hours ago, Ottakee said:

So I would consider carefully the situations of those that died after the vaccine.   In general, every day life, some people do just randomly pass away and many of these others were already terminally ill.

As tragic as a post-vaccine death is, I would be leery of classifying any death as vaccine-related without an autopsy. Would I be nervous if I knew someone that died immediately after vaccination? Yes, but I would not feel comfortable saying it's vaccine-related without more information.

Besides what I mentioned, here are the reasons I'm hearing about waiting or not getting it:

Conspiracy theories (vast majority)
You can't make me
You shouldn't make me 
I want the vaccine I want, not for medical or ethical reasons (pie in the sky, IMO--being choosy might mean you miss out, especially if your state is not doing so hot at rolling them out)
Ethical--fetal cells. Nearly every single person I know concerned about fetal cells has and promotes incorrect information (my personal philosophy is that if you're more Catholic than the Pope on this while not actually being Catholic by denomination, you might be consuming poor information sources)
This might be over soon, and then it will be silly to bother with a vaccine (more pie in the sky)
 

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Re college mandates before vaccines come out of EUA

56 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Maybe, but I don't see how they can require it before the vaccines are out of EUA.  If that doesn't happen until the fall or later, aren't they are requiring students to be part of the drug trial?

I am not a lawyer, and it is my husband, not me, whose profession has mired him in FDA approval processes, so anything I've learned is only through osmosis, not training or direct involvement in the field.

My understanding is that this really is the first time that EUA has been used this way, at this scale, for the general population. There hasn't ever been a nationwide pandemic, for which a vaccine was developed in time and deployed ar scale through public health channels. The two closest parallels were the 1919 flu-- for which no vaccine was developed in time, and polio, whose vaccine was developed over a longer interval. (And the current FDA approval processes in any event were put in place later than both those public health events.)

So the legal issues are not clear. IF the vaccines don't clear regular FDA approval hurdles by ~August, and IF there's a student who doesn't want to vaccinate, and IF the student doesn't choose the path of lesser resistance and simply claim a religious exemption (which the Rutgers statement made clear, would be available), the student could/would sue. And then it would play out in the courts, most likely with a judge granting some kind of mechanism- a stay, or an order that the student have access to online classes while the case wended its way through the process. There's no knowing for sure how it would play out, but I personally doubt a court would uphold an exemption-free mandate under EUA.  Even though college is a choice/privilege etc.

Edited by Pam in CT
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6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Just noting that our numbers are not low. Most of the state is graded as red. We had our biggest one day case increase in 21 days. Our current "lower" rate is where it was just before it all went south in the fall.  

It's low enough that people are acting normal. Traffic is up when I drive each day into the big city and on weekends to shop. I think there's a general acceptance of the current numbers and a moving on. 

 

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Some people believe that the covid shots aren't as good as natural immunity, but that is false--vaccine immunity is superior by multiples of times.

That would be such a bizarre argument. I meet people (nurses, etc.) who won't take the shot, but they're just of the general it hasn't been proven safe yet, won't do an mRNA vaccine, whatever. But to say you'll take a high risk of long COVID (I read 43%) for "better immunity" oh my. That's just crazy. 98% is plenty good enough. 

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1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

simply claim a religious exemption

Some of state universities in our state are very picky about how they allow exemptions. You would have thought, being state funded, that they would follow the state exemption laws (which have more categories than religion), but they don't necessarily. And for religion, there were hurdles to jump through with documentation iirc. 

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