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10 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

I know the thread has moved a lot since here but.....

clearly @Not_a_Number is just an agent of the Deep State sent here to convince us all to get vaccinated so we can be microchipped and they can control the education of the next generation, especially those of us who think we have escaped the mass indoctrination of children forced to spend all day in baby jails.  

Oh no!!! You've blown my cover!! *activates self-destruct sequence* 

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For what it's worth, my husband studies toxic torts -- so, essentially, products that turned out to be dangerous -- and he maintains that the things to *really* worry about are (1) things that you con

re scale of vaccinations vs Covid confirmed cases Responding just to this one part of your post-  As of yesterday, there have been 137 million vaccine doses into US arms:https://www.bloomb

For me it’s pretty simple.  Covid is known to cause death, and the mechanisms by which it does are known.  If someone has Covid and dies in the way that Covid is known to kill then Covid is a likely c

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Whoooa. I don’t think anyone on this thread deserves this. There were tons of us telling @Spryteto wait for her second dose. That is NOT “no nuance at all.”

Why is it that when people agree, out come the claims of people being sheep? Sometimes they are, and sometimes they just agree!!

Gotta agree with this, having lived it.  

I felt encouraged, in this very thread, to postpone my second dose, despite not following the vaccine manufacturer’s recommendations.  People here also helped me research, and found/linked multiple articles that supported getting the second dose in my particular situation, and yet I still felt supported in the decision to postpone based on (gasp) my feelings and possibly irrational fears. I did get the second dose eventually, thanks in large part to the linked papers that made me feel more confident.  


 

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Masers said:

so, my friend was “patient zero” in our town. He had it in March 2020. He was then enrolled in an antibody study through our hospital. He gets antibody tested every month. So far, one year later, he is still showing high levels of antibodies. My FIL had it last summer and was tested this past winter around the holidays, and was still showing high levels of antibodies. He was very pleased because the doctor told him it was excellent news to still be showing such a strong response.

Interesting!!

Anyone have stats on how long antibodies last on average? A distribution graph would be even better.

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11 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Gotta agree with this, having lived it.  

I felt encouraged, in this very thread, to postpone my second dose, despite not following the vaccine manufacturer’s recommendations.  People here also helped me research, and found/linked multiple articles that supported getting the second dose in my particular situation, and yet I still felt supported in the decision to postpone based on (gasp) my feelings and possibly irrational fears. I did get the second dose eventually, thanks in large part to the linked papers that made me feel more confident.  

Technically, it may have been one of the other vaccine threads... there are a few. I’m having trouble keeping track!!

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8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting!!

Anyone have stats on how long antibodies last on average? A distribution graph would be even better.

I haven’t seen many good stats—I’ve seen everything from that they barely last at all to that they give long-lasting broad immunity. Assuming the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 

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3 minutes ago, Masers said:

Thank you! I have heard of that strategy but haven’t talked to her about it, haha. I will! Last time I talked to her, she was feeling like, “I just want to lie and tell everyone I got it!” She has a friend with major health anxiety, and last time they were together, her friend asked whether she had gotten it, and when she said no, she said that her friend visibly recoiled and stepped away from her (unconsciously, I’m sure), then demanded her reasons and shot them down one by one. I told her that she really doesn’t owe anyone an explanation. 

I don’t argue or try to persuade people in person, or demand reasons, so I’m not debating that point, I’m not asking for explanations from someone who doesn’t get a shot. I’m a pass the bean dip girl. Hoping you won’t take this question as an indication that I’m arguing for aggressive behavior re: persuading friends.  

But I’d like to ask this, and truly want to know your answer...  Would you say your friend should be honest?  With her friend who has medical anxiety?

I haven’t asked anyone about the shot, and am not sure if I will.  But between friends - it’s been a huge part of our conversations.  I mostly know who will vaccinate and who will not, and I love them no matter what.  I’m looking forward to following the CDC recommendations and hanging out with other vaccinated people soon, and will wait to hang out the same way with my friends who don’t choose the shot.  

If someone lied to me, directly, and told me they had had their shot when they had not, and then joined my family to hang out per CDC recs for vaxxed people ... it would destroy my trust in that friend. I have made an effort not to alienate my friends who think differently from me on Covid, and I’m not pro-cutting people off, but I can’t even imagine how I’d feel if I learned that a friend had lied about that.  It would be a character issue at that point, and my trust would be utterly destroyed.  It’s one thing to be who you are, and own it. It’s another to manipulate others into doing something they would not feel comfortable with otherwise. That might be a friendship-breaker here.

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11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Technically, it may have been one of the other vaccine threads... there are a few. I’m having trouble keeping track!!

Yes, I think it sort of spanned several threads.  There are so many!

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17 minutes ago, Masers said:

Last time I talked to her, she was feeling like, “I just want to lie and tell everyone I got it!” She has a friend with major health anxiety, and last time they were together, her friend asked whether she had gotten it, and when she said no, she said that her friend visibly recoiled and stepped away from her (unconsciously, I’m sure), then demanded her reasons and shot them down one by one. I told her that she really doesn’t owe anyone an explanation. 

I hope she's kidding and wouldn't really lie about it since, of course, that would be taking someone else's ability to make informed decisions about their health away from them. And this is one area where I think there really aren't any easy answers about how we all just need to respect each other's decisions. That's easy enough to say on a message board, but in real life someone's vaccine status might well impact how/whether you choose to interact with them. I can see that someone would feel defensive and maybe further entrenched in their position if a friend says they don't want to hang out together if they're not vaccinated, but that's a totally legitimate position. The current recommendations about getting together in person are very different depending on who's vaccinated and who's not. So, sure, she doesn't owe anyone an explanation, but I could also see that attempting to her convince her might be the only alternative her friend saw to just not seeing her anymore. As more people get vaccinated and feel comfortable getting together with other vaccinated people, this will be an issue more and more. And there's no bad guy in the situation; everyone has a right to choose whether to get vaccinated, but everyone also has a right to choose to follow guidelines and not include unvaccinated people in gatherings. But everyone having a right to do it doesn't mean it won't lead to an awful lot of anger and hurt feelings all around.

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21 minutes ago, Masers said:

Thank you! I have heard of that strategy but haven’t talked to her about it, haha. I will! Last time I talked to her, she was feeling like, “I just want to lie and tell everyone I got it!” She has a friend with major health anxiety, and last time they were together, her friend asked whether she had gotten it, and when she said no, she said that her friend visibly recoiled and stepped away from her (unconsciously, I’m sure), then demanded her reasons and shot them down one by one. I told her that she really doesn’t owe anyone an explanation. 

You are right that she doesn't owe anyone an explanation. I do think lying is wrong. It would probably be better to say, "I like you and if you ever feel comfortable being around someone not immunized, give me a call but for now I'll do my own thing."  And leave it at that. It is wrong to lie and if people don't want to hang with the non vaccinated that should be their choice just as it should be the choice of the individual whether they get the vaccine or not. 

But try to leave on good terms because people may realize in the future that it isn't worth missing out on this friendship over a vaccine. No need to burn bridges, but both should respect the others decision. 

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6 minutes ago, Masers said:

 

She did tell her friend her reasons, and her friend dismissed all of them and was argumentative with her. Hence her saying to me, “I FEEL like just lying.” She hasn’t lied, and she won’t, because she’s not that kind of person. But she IS a very passive, non confrontational person, so this has been very tough for her. I don’t think she’s ever really found herself going against the grain like this.

I'm sorry. You wrote this while I was typing my response about lying. I got it now. 

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26 minutes ago, Masers said:

I haven’t seen many good stats—I’ve seen everything from that they barely last at all to that they give long-lasting broad immunity. Assuming the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. 

I’ve seen reports like you mention, but no stats. No one’s done a survey?

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10 minutes ago, Masers said:

Like I just said, she said she FELT like just lying, not that she has or will. And she won’t. She wasn’t “kidding” per se, because she definitely wasn’t in a jokey mood—she felt downright sad. 

i have zero qualms about getting together with unvaccinated people. I’ve seen my sister throughout the entire pandemic and will continue to do so. But of course people always have a right to choose who they hang out with, so if her vaccinated, physically healthy 29 year old friend is uncomfortable hanging out with her, that’s her decision and business and my sister will accept that, but it doesn’t mean she can’t be sad and vent to me about it. 

Weren’t you just talking about never judging people’s decisions? There’s quite the feeling of judgment about her friend’s decision in what you just said. 

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10 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

But is anyone under the age 40 honestly getting vaccinated to avoid death? I don't really understand this discussion. I feel like practically everyone I know who's younger is trying to avoid other outcomes, including sequelae and getting someone else sick. 

I don't know if that is S's reason for getting vaccinated, but it's definitely the reason I, and her bio family and her boyfriend want her to be. When you've had two strokes before you reach age 25, the last thing you need is a disease that is known to affect clotting. 

 

Most of the teens I know who are or plan to be vaccinated ASAP want it so that they won't get other people sick and so they can go back to normal life. For my 16 yr old, opening to 16+ means that it is a lot more likely that grandparents can come to celebrate graduation, that a summer job is possible, and that seeing friends regularly over the next few months will be feasible. After a year of social isolation, all are powerful motivators. 

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Well, I have had a lot of judgement from my parents and in laws for vaccinating. My step mom spent a lot of time trying to convince me the vaccine was dangerous. Yes, I said the vaccine. I asked her which one and she didn't know.

I also allowed my kids to visit when numbers were really low last summer because I really am going out of my way to keep up relationships but both my step mom and in laws at different times grilled my children about masks. Told them how dangerous they were with lowering O2 levels and bacteria etc. We just stepped back and didn't talk or visit again until the winter hump was over. They just saw them again this weekend for the first time since last summer but with a new wave coming on we might wait it out again. 

Honestly, it just isn't fun to visit anymore so it isn't like this is a one sided thing as far as being judgemental is a concern. They are older and cantankerous and have never studied any math or science in any way so we can't even discuss it really. They won't get a vaccine (although my step dad finally did but he was less extreme politically) and honestly, I'm frustrated with the misinformation but they are adults. 

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23 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I don't know if that is S's reason for getting vaccinated, but it's definitely the reason I, and her bio family and her boyfriend want her to be. When you've had two strokes before you reach age 25, the last thing you need is a disease that is known to affect clotting. 

Yeah, I overstated it. Obviously some young people have health issues and will vaccinate to avoid the chance of dying of COVID. 

 

23 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Most of the teens I know who are or plan to be vaccinated ASAP want it so that they won't get other people sick and so they can go back to normal life. For my 16 yr old, opening to 16+ means that it is a lot more likely that grandparents can come to celebrate graduation, that a summer job is possible, and that seeing friends regularly over the next few months will be feasible. After a year of social isolation, all are powerful motivators. 

Yeah, that's my sister's motivation as well. 

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re whether private sector vaccination "passports" and other private institutions' requirements will stand legal challenge- this thread has flown off this issue, which anyway maybe warrants a thread of its own since it's somewhat distinct from the individual decision focus of the OP.

Nonetheless, I offer up this perspective on the legal issues, which, headline: are NOT definitive one way or another.  We haven't been in this particular situation before (the closest public health comparables are the 1919 Flu, for which there was no vaccine; and polio, where the vaccine was developed and rolled out much more slowly and also where public DESIRE for the vaccine was nearly universal).  So the tradeoff issues between public health vs individual choice/preferences/rights haven't been litigated.

The Biden Administration has "emphatically" indicated that any movement in this direction will not be in the form of any federal mandate or program, but rather private-sector led, as the Excelsior Pass in New York City has been (consortium of sports & arts & entertainment venues, partnering with IBM, to enable NYC's re-opening).  Connecticut's governor has indicated that something similar may be coming our way.  Texas' governor has indicated that any effort by Texas businesses to implement anything of the sort will be shut down.

Individual universities and employers will almost certainly be able to require vaccination subject to fairly narrow ADA/ medical exemptions, as already happens with meningitis and other vaccines.  Whether such institutions also allow other exemptions is a choice -- employment in the US is at will, college is a choice, vaccine hesitancy is not a protected class category.

 

To that point, re workplace accommodations to folks who choose not to vaccinate

11 hours ago, kokotg said:

Weird that it's understood that employees have to be given reasonable accommodations if they don't want to be vaccinated but not if they don't want to....get covid. Although it remains to be seen whether there will be a ton of lawsuits about that in the future, I guess. I read about one where a family whose father had died of covid was suing Publix because they wouldn't ALLOW him to wear a mask at work (back in spring 2020). And there are plenty of school systems that dismissed everyone or almost everyone's requests to work remotely while refusing to follow any CDC guidelines about masking, distancing, etc.  

This.

The prior POTUS literally signed an EO to exempt businesses from liability in the event that workers were found to have contracted COVID due to inadequate safeguards in their workplace. As did a number of state governments.

Workers had no rights to PPE, no rights to ventilation, no rights to distance markers, no rights to contract tracing, no rights to time off if they were exposed.  No accommodations to reduce transmission -- all public policy was in the other direction, keep businesses open, keep profits up, mandate all schools resume all in-person classes. 

That was then, this is now, and there's no way to write over the mistakes we made in the past. But when we speak of an ethical imperative to extend "accommodations" in workplaces, it is only ethical to look long and hard at the question FOR WHOM.  There's a whole lotta privilege packed pretty tight into the argument that "accommodations" are owed to personal choice not to vaccine when "accommodations" are NOT extended to basic workplace safety.

Edited by Pam in CT
typo
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5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think it’s for any sports of physical activity.  Or that’s how it read to me.  It is most likely very precautionary though 

I saw the “competition and training” mention. I certainly haven’t heard of anything along these lines from the numerous kids I’ve known with COVID. 

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I, myself, don’t have a lot of negative emotion around  people choosing not to be vaccinated. I think that is because it is the first thing that people can do to really protect themselves without having to rely on the good will and good actions of others. I think I just feel resigned.  I’m extremely thankful that everyone here has the opportunity to get it and get protected. I am  very sorry for those who are unable to get vaccinated due to health reasons and I would like this virus to be crushed so that they aren’t at risk. I really hope that the at risk population in my area are getting vaccinated if at all possible, because I don’t want to watch them going through the suffering and death that could come again.

I will say, though, that many of the people in my area who seem to be ideologically against this vaccine have also been the same ones who have done absolutely nothing to help during this pandemic. They started out by scoffing and saying it was the flu, they were militantly anti-mask and anti making changes to protect people, and now they are spreading disinformation about the vaccines. I am so incredibly sad that many of them are my friends and acquaintances. Fortunately for me my family are not in this group. This is the greatest disillusionment with people that I have experienced in my 57 years. I guess I’m lucky I made it to 57 before I experienced it. 

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14 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Right, that number about showing symptoms was not about women hospitalized for covid. Just pregnant women that happened to be hospitalized. And admittedly, we need way more research on this. But they also found:odds of pregnant women with a COVID-19 diagnosis being admitted to the intensive-care unit (ICU) were 62% higher than for non-pregnant women of reproductive age, and the odds of needing invasive ventilation were 88% higher. A study5 by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) echoed these findings. The study included more than 400,000 women with a positive test and symptoms of COVID-19, of whom 23,434 were pregnant, and found similar increases in the odds of ICU admission and invasive ventilation in pregnant women (see ‘COVID risks in pregnancy’).

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00578-y

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the odds of a pregnant woman with Covid being admitted to the ICU vs. the odds of a pregnant woman without Covid being admitted to the ICU?  Lots of pregnant women get admitted to ICU whether they have Covid or not.  Your link does show the comparison of pregnant women with vs. without Covid, and yes, the ICU numbers are higher.  One wonders how much of this is out of extra care that pregnant women in any kind of distress or illness normally receive.

Early numbers from the vax also showed increased risks though, including risk of stillbirth.  IMO it seems wiser to take other preventive measures to avoid Covid rather than get the vax during pregnancy.  Women planning to get pregnant should probably plan to get their vax sequence and wait period done first.

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the odds of a pregnant woman with Covid being admitted to the ICU vs. the odds of a pregnant woman without Covid being admitted to the ICU?  Lots of pregnant women get admitted to ICU whether they have Covid or not.  Your link does show the comparison of pregnant women with vs. without Covid, and yes, the ICU numbers are higher.  One wonders how much of this is out of extra care that pregnant women in any kind of distress or illness normally receive.

Early numbers from the vax also showed increased risks though, including risk of stillbirth.  IMO it seems wiser to take other preventive measures to avoid Covid rather than get the vax during pregnancy.  Women planning to get pregnant should probably plan to get their vax sequence and wait period done first.

That's good info too, but wouldn't address the specific question of wether pregnancy put you at higher risk for severe covid. 

Regarding the second bolded point - was that in the article and I missed it? Or from something else? I haven't seen anything saying the vaccine may cause stillbirth in pregnant women. Source?

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Regarding the second bolded point - was that in the article and I missed it? Or from something else?

There was an article out probably over a month ago, but I hope there is something more recent or will be soon.  Obviously the numbers of pregnant women already vaxed were pretty low until recently.

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

There was an article out probably over a month ago, but I hope there is something more recent or will be soon.  Obviously the numbers of pregnant women already vaxed were pretty low until recently.

I've searched and can't find anything like that - any idea where you saw that? It's a pretty big deal if true. 

This is what I found (similar info in multiple places) 

Q: Are COVID-19 vaccines safe for someone who is pregnant?

A: Recent information released by the V-safe registry of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that there were no safety issues from pregnant patients receiving either the Pfizer or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines. The registry did not include the Johnson & Johnson vaccine as it had not received emergency use authorization during the time of data collection.

For those involved in the study, the data collected showed no significant difference between those who received the vaccine and those who didn’t as far as miscarriage, stillbirth and pregnancy complications affecting mom or baby.

Q: Were COVID-19 vaccines tested in people who were pregnant?

A: Pregnant individuals were not part of clinical trials, but research trials have begun in some centers. We do know that COVID-19 vaccines have been given to people who were part of Tiers 1a and 1b, and we haven’t seen adverse effects. The vaccines were tested in tens of thousands of people, and there were no serious side effects. COVID-19 vaccines do not contain ingredients that are known to be harmful to pregnant individuals or their babies.

https://nortonhealthcare.com/news/pregnancy-fertility-and-the-covid-19-vaccine/

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9 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I've searched and can't find anything like that - any idea where you saw that? It's a pretty big deal if true. 

This is what I found (similar info in multiple places) 

Q: Are COVID-19 vaccines safe for someone who is pregnant?

A: Recent information released by the V-safe registry of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that there were no safety issues from pregnant patients receiving either the Pfizer or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines. The registry did not include the Johnson & Johnson vaccine as it had not received emergency use authorization during the time of data collection.

For those involved in the study, the data collected showed no significant difference between those who received the vaccine and those who didn’t as far as miscarriage, stillbirth and pregnancy complications affecting mom or baby.

Q: Were COVID-19 vaccines tested in people who were pregnant?

A: Pregnant individuals were not part of clinical trials, but research trials have begun in some centers. We do know that COVID-19 vaccines have been given to people who were part of Tiers 1a and 1b, and we haven’t seen adverse effects. The vaccines were tested in tens of thousands of people, and there were no serious side effects. COVID-19 vaccines do not contain ingredients that are known to be harmful to pregnant individuals or their babies.

https://nortonhealthcare.com/news/pregnancy-fertility-and-the-covid-19-vaccine/

Yeah, this is like when they say the vax is "safe" without explaining that it's not totally safe and not safe for everyone.

I saw the raw numbers and there were more miscarriages in the vax group.  (I think this may have been a group of women who were in the trials and didn't know they were pregnant or got pregnant after the trials started.)  The summary described it as "not significant," partly because the raw numbers were too low, as there wasn't an intention to test pregnant women at that time. 

To me, it's enough to wait if I'm pregnant, and use other methods to avoid catching Covid.

"Not significant" is a technical term that doesn't mean no risk.  It doesn't mean no deaths.  Prospective moms should be given more info before deciding IMO.

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5 minutes ago, SKL said:

This shows higher than average miscarriage rate in people who have had the vax.

Does it? I'm coming up with 18.8% and then they have this footnote about the rate in the population as a whole: "The frequency of clinically recognized early pregnancy loss for women aged 20–30 years is 9–17%, and this rate increases sharply from 20% at age 35 years to 40% at age 40 years and 80% at age 45 years. Reference: ACOG Practice Bulletin No. 200: Early Pregnancy Loss. Obstet Gynecol. 2018132(5):e197-e207."

So as I'm reading it, we would have to know what the ages were for the women studied to know if it was higher or not. (maybe that's in there; I looked at it fairly quickly)

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oh, it says median age is 33 for pregnant women, and that the average rate is 20% for women who are 35. So it doesn't seem like we can conclude that it's higher based on the information they give.

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4 hours ago, Spryte said:

I don’t argue or try to persuade people in person, or demand reasons, so I’m not debating that point, I’m not asking for explanations from someone who doesn’t get a shot. I’m a pass the bean dip girl. Hoping you won’t take this question as an indication that I’m arguing for aggressive behavior re: persuading friends.  

But I’d like to ask this, and truly want to know your answer...  Would you say your friend should be honest?  With her friend who has medical anxiety?

I haven’t asked anyone about the shot, and am not sure if I will.  But between friends - it’s been a huge part of our conversations.  I mostly know who will vaccinate and who will not, and I love them no matter what.  I’m looking forward to following the CDC recommendations and hanging out with other vaccinated people soon, and will wait to hang out the same way with my friends who don’t choose the shot.  

If someone lied to me, directly, and told me they had had their shot when they had not, and then joined my family to hang out per CDC recs for vaxxed people ... it would destroy my trust in that friend. I have made an effort not to alienate my friends who think differently from me on Covid, and I’m not pro-cutting people off, but I can’t even imagine how I’d feel if I learned that a friend had lied about that.  It would be a character issue at that point, and my trust would be utterly destroyed.  It’s one thing to be who you are, and own it. It’s another to manipulate others into doing something they would not feel comfortable with otherwise. That might be a friendship-breaker here.

Yeah.  I firmly think that a person's decision to vaccinate or not should be between them and their doctor.  I tell friends that I have gotten vaccinated but it's up to them to volunteer whether they have gotten it or not.  I don't care in the sense that I don't feel like it's my business to tell them to get it.  I am not their family nor their healthcare provider.  Having said that, though,  I do feel better when I hear that people I know and am around have gotten vaccinated because it is one more layer of protection for me in addition to my own vaccination.  And I did care a lot when my dh got vaccinated first because he was my primary disease vector. 

As far as caring about what others on the internet are doing, I don't care at all other than in a general societal sense because of herd immunity.  So anyone feeling like they are "forced" do something because of what strangers on the internet say, is very strange to me.  I do check the percentages of vaccination in my state and am thrilled that as of yesterday 21.7% of my state is fully vaccinated and 34.2% have at least one dose.  So I guess if you live in my state, I do care a bit more in a general "contributing to potential herd immunity" sense. 

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

"Not significant" is a technical term that doesn't mean no risk.  It doesn't mean no deaths.  Prospective moms should be given more info before deciding IMO.

Are you talking about the term "significant" with respect to statistics?  Because you were using the term with respect to data in a study, I am assuming you are. 

A lot of people think that "significant" means meaningful, or important. But it doesn't.  It means a detectable difference not due to chance. 

In a statistical sense, "not significant" literally means no difference between groups, that the outcome for each group is statistically the same, that statistically, the difference is due to chance, that a difference was not statistically detectable.  The opposite of what you seem to be saying. 

That's different than no risk, you are right.  But if there is no statistically significant difference in outcome between groups, then the risk was statistically the same in both groups - pregnancy has a risk of miscarriage and stillbirth, whether vaccinated or not.  "Not significant" lets us conclude that the mc/sb risk was not increased by the vaccine (within the limits of the data and study design).

An aside:  Sometimes studies can be too small to detect small significant differences between groups (concept of statistical power, a.k.a beta error).

Very large studies can have results that are statistically significant, but so trivially small as to not be meaningful or important.

 

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3 minutes ago, wathe said:

Are you talking about the term "significant" with respect to statistics?  Because you were using the term with respect to data in a study, I am assuming you are. 

A lot of people think that "significant" means meaningful, or important. But it doesn't.  It means a detectable difference not due to chance. 

In a statistical sense, "not significant" literally means no difference between groups, that the outcome for each group is statistically the same, that statistically, the difference is due to chance, that a difference was not statistically detectable.  The opposite of what you seem to be saying. 

That's different than no risk, you are right.  But if there is no statistically significant difference in outcome between groups, then the risk was statistically the same in both groups - pregnancy has a risk of miscarriage and stillbirth, whether vaccinated or not.  "Not significant" lets us conclude that the mc/sb risk was not increased by the vaccine (within the limits of the data and study design).

An aside:  Sometimes studies can be too small to detect small significant differences between groups (concept of statistical power, a.k.a beta error).

Very large studies can have results that are statistically significant, but so trivially small as to not be meaningful or important.

 

The number of cases in the studies I've seen have been very small, which, as you noted, is an issue for statistical significance.

I am saying we need more research before I would recommend this vax for a pregnant woman.

Common sense tells that with the side effects many people are experiencing, they wouldn't want to intentionally subject a pregnancy to that unless the alternative (getting the vax some months/weeks earlier or later) was clearly more dangerous.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

 

I saw the raw numbers and there were more miscarriages in the vax group. 

Again, can you steer us to where you saw this, cause I'm not finding anything like this anywhere. 

And it's a pretty big thing. 

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2 minutes ago, kand said:

That was what I wondered initially when there were reports of pregnant women being more likely to require ICU care, but with an 88% higher chance of being mechanically ventilated, that wouldn’t be explained by an abundance of caution. They wouldn’t want to do that unless absolutely necessary, since the outcomes are so poor. 
 

 

 

Yes, but 88% of what, given that the rates of ventilation of women of pregnancy age are extremely low.  And is it never the case that pregnant women are ventilated for reasons other than Covid?  I'm not a pregnancy expert, but I've known a lot of people who had very serious problems during pregnancy without having Covid.

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Saying we need more research before you would reccomend it is very different than saying it causes stillbirths and miscarriages, which is what you claimed earlier today. I can totally respect wanting more research, but claiming it causes stillbirth is different, and needs evidence behind it. 

Don't misquote me please.  I said early numbers showed increased risks.  You have enough education to know what that means and what it doesn't mean.

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

The number of cases in the studies I've seen have been very small, which, as you noted, is an issue for statistical significance.

I am saying we need more research before I would recommend this vax for a pregnant woman.

Common sense tells that with the side effects many people are experiencing, they wouldn't want to intentionally subject a pregnancy to that unless the alternative (getting the vax some months/weeks earlier or later) was clearly more dangerous.

I see.

Where I am, I think the calculus for pregnant women is in favour of the vax, by a wide margin.  We are in pandemic conditions here, with cases spiking.  We have good reason to believe that pregnant women do worse with covid than non-pregnant women; and  more importantly,  people with covid definitely do worse than people who don't get covid; and that the vaccine is 95% effective.  We do not have any evidence to suggest the vaccine is harmful for pregnant women, and we do not have a plausible mechanism by which the vaccine might be harmful to pregnant women.  SOGC strongly recommends vaccinating pregnant women.  In my province they qualify as "at risk" and can get the vaccine before others in their age group.

IME vaccination for covid while pregnant is much less risky than not vaccinating while pregnant.  I really think that advising women to wait will result in unnecessary excess deaths and morbidity.

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Just now, SKL said:

Don't misquote me please.  I said early numbers showed increased risks.  You have enough education to know what that means and what it doesn't mean.

My bad. Increased risk of stillbirth, and I just saw where that was coming from. 0.6 vs 1 %. 

(although miscarriage rates were 10% less, i think?)

I definitely understand pregnant women wanting more research...I think personally I'd get vaccinated if I were pregnant, but I'm also in an area with a lot of Covid and people not taking precautions. In another area, I might feel differently. 

I was just rying to figure out where that claim was coming from, but someone else pointed it out. 

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1 minute ago, kand said:

What the research is saying at this point is that yes, the risk of Covid is more dangerous (and in a society where a lot of people are declining the vaccination, a pregnant woman can’t be kept totally safe from catching it, especially since she will need to venture into medical facilities frequently for care). Further, as a bonus, they are finding that babies born to vaccinated women are born with antibodies, giving them some initial protection. 

When the difference is not statistically significant, by definition, that means no increased risk was shown.

Quoting to super-"like"

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4 hours ago, MotherGoose said:

I saw the “competition and training” mention. I certainly haven’t heard of anything along these lines from the numerous kids I’ve known with COVID. 

They are new just released recommendations so it would make sense.  I don’t think an ECG is overly intrusive/expensive so it’s probably just a precaution.  They recommend them as a precaution here any time anyone has had an electric shock.

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4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

They are new just released recommendations so it would make sense.  I don’t think an ECG is overly intrusive/expensive so it’s probably just a precaution.  They recommend them as a precaution here any time anyone has had an electric shock.

truth, takes a few minutes, no pain, etc. 

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12 minutes ago, kand said:

I see it in this chart: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_wHIYX-tGkGBPwuax7N8BxZPR4PTTCDm/view 

The same document shows the increase in miscarriages amongst those not vaccinated for Covid.

These numbers are meaninglessly small. I wouldn’t feel reassured by them if I were pregnant, but I wouldn’t be more concerned, either.

I don’t know if I’d do if I were pregnant. It might depend on my level of exposure. I wouldn’t be surprised if a strong immune reaction was bad for a fetus, frankly...

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I have to admit if I was pregnant I probably wouldn’t risk it myself right now unless I was in a really peak area I’d just do extreme precautions.  I’m pretty paranoid about anything drug related when pregnant though.  I’m really glad this didn’t happen at that time in my life.  I will also likely wait a while on the kids.  The risk here is super low.  If I was elsewhere I’d probably do it though.

I wouldn’t rule out 100pc that some rare adverse event will show up with the other vaccines - it took a while for the Astra Zeneca one to emerge.

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Well if people are following recommendations to vax while pregnant, then I pray that the ultimate numbers prove this to be safe.  Meanwhile I would personally advise against it until more data are available.

I would again remind people that the logical comparison isn't vaxed vs. symptomatic covid.  It's vaxed vs. not vaxed.  Most people who are not vaxed are still not catching Covid during the pregnancy timeframe, especially if sensible precautions are taken.

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well if people are following recommendations to vax while pregnant, then I pray that the ultimate numbers prove this to be safe.  Meanwhile I would personally advise against it until more data are available.

I would again remind people that the logical comparison isn't vaxed vs. symptomatic covid.  It's vaxed vs. not vaxed.  Most people who are not vaxed are still not catching Covid during the pregnancy timeframe, especially if sensible precautions are taken.

I think you need to do a comparison like “risks of vaccine” vs probability of COVID multiplied by the risks of COVID.

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think you need to do a comparison like “risks of vaccine” vs probability of COVID multiplied by the risks of COVID.

Once there are more data, yes, that would make sense.  Though "probability of covid" is affected in part by choices that could change the calculation.

Meanwhile I fully support anyone planning a pregnancy getting the vax and then waiting until the likely reactions are past.  That should solve the problem for most prospective moms.

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