Edit--My friend tested.....Anyone knowledgeable about how 23 & me works?

[Scarlett]

***Update 7-8 My friend tested on 23 and Me and it shows a  23.6% dna match with this unknown woman (JH) ---which means unknown person  is either a half sister or a full niece to my friend.  However, 23 & Me has put this unknown woman, JH on the tree as friend's niece.  My friend contacted JH and got her name, maiden name and a few other details....and I was able to very quickly gather some info off of ancestry records that makes it almost zero % chance she is my friend's full niece.  

I  believe what is throwing the 23 & Me algorithm is they have a shared match from the mom's side.  So friend is very confused by this and believes it means her mom gave up a child for adoption.  Upon closer inspection though the shared match is a known first cousin to my friend and matches accordingly.  It is a 4th cousin match to JH.  If this was a full niece of my friend she would match the known cousin MUCH higher than 4th cousin.  

JH was born 7 1/2 months after her parents married.  She was born in the same city as my friend.  The bio father to both girls (almost 100% proved) got divorced a month after JH was born.  

Oh and one more clue.  My friend has several other half siblings (born in the marriage--my friend was product of an affair during that marriage)  and one of the sisters D is on 23 & me and shows half sister to my friend.  D also shows half sister to JH.  

I think it is a sure thing.....apparently JH doesn't know who all of these matches are on the bio dad side....so I think it is likely her mom hasn't told her and she is discovering new info right now. ***    

 

I have experience with Ancestry, but not 23 & me.  A friend of mine has long suspected her 'dad' is not her bio dad.  This friend's daughter tested on 23& me and that is pretty conclusive.  They had a suspicion on who it is and that seems accurate.  However, there is a match on there to the daughter that seems very high.  23 and me has created a family tree based on their guess.  They are guessing this person is a 1st cousin to the friend's daughter and they show it as this person's mother coming from the same set of parents as my friend.  Is that making sense?  Personally, I think that is highly unlikely but since 23 & me set the tree up that way they all think it must be true.  It is more likely this person is the daughter of a half sibling to my friend.  

On ancestry a half aunt and a 1st cousin would be in the same range of possibilities.  I assume it has to be the same on 23 & me....but I just wondered if someone could walk me through it.

Also it is worth noting that there is no dna for my friend, her mom, her newly discovered bio dad or the parents of this match to the daughter.  So truly 23 & me is guessing.

This comes down to my friend believing that her mom had another child with this man (making said child her full sibling) and giving the child up for adoption.  I doubt that is true, but possible.  

Edited July 8, 2021 by Scarlett

[OH_Homeschooler]

I can tell you what my 23 and Me tree is like.  From the names I recognize on my 23 and Me list, they have accurately identified a first cousin (13.4% DNA match) and a first cousin, once removed (7.6% DNA match). They go on to list first cousin, twice removed, second cousins, etc. The lowest level of relation is 4th cousin, with a 0.23% DNA match. Does that help?

[Katy]

DNA works the same way on 23&me as it does on Ancestry.  The site is guessing, and they don't guess half anything IME.  They don't want to upset people.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Katy

[SKL]

I don't know in great detail, but I do know that the family tree is just an estimate.

I am not totally following your OP as far as who is who to whom, but I wonder if there could be some way to find out if a person is related on the mom's side or the dad's side.  It's not something I've dug into deeply.  Maybe someone else has.

[Scarlett]

17 minutes ago, Katy said:

DNA works the same way on 23&me as it does on Ancestry.  The site is guessing, and they don't guess half anything IME.  They don't want to upset people.

Thank you! This is what i am thinking. They just can’t get past the tree that 23 & me generated. 

[Katy]

32 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't know in great detail, but I do know that the family tree is just an estimate.

I am not totally following your OP as far as who is who to whom, but I wonder if there could be some way to find out if a person is related on the mom's side or the dad's side.  It's not something I've dug into deeply.  Maybe someone else has.

Mine tells me if someone is on my mother’s side, but my mother has submitted hers too. It didn’t before she did her own kit. 

[KeriJ]

We had to have a few people in our family take the test in order to get accurate results.  So myself, my brother,  and a first cousin all tested in order for it to be clear whether a 4th person was a 1st cousin vs. half sister. 23 and me was vague as to which one it was. But the more people who took the test, the clearer it became. 

That may have nothing to do with what you are asking. 🙂🤷‍♀️

[Carrie12345]

So, Ancestry puts it this way (which is based on math, so 23andMe should be the same.):

“1st cousin: possible range: 1st – 2nd cousins

Someone appearing in this category is likely to be a four-degree separation, but could range from three to five degrees. Relationships that fall into this category can be first cousins, great-great-grandparents and great-great-grandchildren, great-aunts and uncles and great-nieces and nephews, and half aunts and uncles and half nieces and nephews. You will share about 680–1,150 centimorgans with a first cousin.“

My dd had a 1st cousin match that went private almost immediately.  We have some thoughts on what that could be, but it doesn’t seem like we’ll ever find out.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

So, Ancestry puts it this way (which is based on math, so 23andMe should be the same.):

“1st cousin: possible range: 1st – 2nd cousins

Someone appearing in this category is likely to be a four-degree separation, but could range from three to five degrees. Relationships that fall into this category can be first cousins, great-great-grandparents and great-great-grandchildren, great-aunts and uncles and great-nieces and nephews, and half aunts and uncles and half nieces and nephews. You will share about 680–1,150 centimorgans with a first cousin.“

My dd had a 1st cousin match that went private almost immediately.  We have some thoughts on what that could be, but it doesn’t seem like we’ll ever find out.

Probably the same thoughts I am having....that it is actually a half sibling to one of your dd's parents.

[Scarlett]

44 minutes ago, Katy said:

Mine tells me if someone is on my mother’s side, but my mother has submitted hers too. It didn’t before she did her own kit. 

Correct.  And that is what I keep telling them.  That if my friend will test it will all become more clear.  

[Scarlett]

45 minutes ago, KeriJ said:

We had to have a few people in our family take the test in order to get accurate results.  So myself, my brother,  and a first cousin all tested in order for it to be clear whether a 4th person was a 1st cousin vs. half sister. 23 and me was vague as to which one it was. But the more people who took the test, the clearer it became. 

That may have nothing to do with what you are asking. 🙂🤷‍♀️

Well, i think it is exactly what I am talking about, but I don't think the choice would be between a 1st cousin and a half sister.  probably between a first cousin and half aunt.  

[ktgrok]

I have someone that was murky, but we believe to be my first cousin. This is how 23 and Me phrases it: 

You and NAME likely share a set of grandparents. You could also be from different generations (removed cousins) or share only one ancestor (half cousins).

 

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I have someone that was murky, but we believe to be my first cousin. This is how 23 and Me phrases it: 

You and NAME likely share a set of grandparents. You could also be from different generations (removed cousins) or share only one ancestor (half cousins).

 

So this is an unknown person to you?

[EKS]

Given what I know about how it works, I believe that 23andMe and Ancestry testing is far more likely to underestimate relatedness than to overestimate it.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

So this is an unknown person to you?

Yup. Was a total surprise. She contacted me and we learned that her mom was friends with 3 of my uncles, and went to the house they were living at, but doesn't remember which one she had um...relations with. I guess it was the 70s...so...yeah. Before the 23 and me results, the person that contacted me thought another person entirely was her father, although she'd never met him. I guess her mother was very....social....during that time period. And my uncles were very much pot heads at that point, so who knows...I think I remember we narrowed it down to two of them, because she said the guy had dark hair. One of the three is a blonde. So, yup. That was a LOT of crazy when she first contacted me. My mom was sort of freaking out at first, thinking that maybe my father could have been the girls father, so we had to spend a lot of time explaining to her that the genetics proved she wasn't. She's a cousin, not a half sibling. 

[LaughingCat]

23and me shows my maternal 1st cousins and uncle as 1st cousins and uncle.  No other person that closely related to me is on 23andme.  It doesn't appear to offer other options.  It also offers others (who I don't know) as 1st cousin, once removed, 1st cousin twice removed, 2nd cousin without any details on how it decided between those (with close amounts of shared dna % wise)

Ancestry shows my maternal and paternal half brothers and sisters and uncle as close-1st cousins. And 1st cousins as 1st-2nd cousins.   Clicking in, it gives more options...

half-brothers, half-sisters and uncle could be:

Grandparent

Grandchild

Half sibling

Aunt/uncle

Niece/nephew

1st cousins could be: 

1st cousin

Great-grandparent

Great-grandchild

Grandaunt/granduncle

Grandniece/grandnephew

Half aunt/uncle

Half niece/nephew

 

Then there's a bunch of lower DNA matches that also show as 1-2nd cousin that offer a lot more options for possibilities.

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, LaughingCat said:

 

Ancestry shows my maternal and paternal half brothers and sisters and uncle as close-1st cousins. And 1st cousins as 1st-2nd cousins.   Clicking in, it gives more options...

half-brothers, half-sisters and uncle could be:

Grandparent

Grandchild

Half sibling

Aunt/uncle

Niece/nephew

1st cousins could be: 

1st cousin

Great-grandparent

Great-grandchild

Grandaunt/granduncle

Grandniece/grandnephew

Half aunt/uncle

Half niece/nephew

 

Then there's a bunch of lower DNA matches that also show as 1-2nd cousin that offer a lot more options for possibilities.

I wonder if 23 and Me is narrowing it down partly by age - you could use age to eliminate say, grandparent if the person in question is younger or the same age as you. That kind of thing. So even though the dna percent is the same for great grandparent and 1st cousin, if the person in question is younger than you, it's obvious they are not your great grand parent or your grand aunt/uncle. And if you are young enough they can potentially rule out you having a great grandchild or grand niece. That kind of thing. 

We did wonder for a bit if the one that showed up as my cousin might be a half aunt - my grandfather was not known for his faithfulness - but she talked with her mom and it became clear that any intimacy happened with one of my uncles, not my grandfather. 

[Scarlett]

So it looks like 23 & me works similar to how Ancestry does, which is basically guess at the relationship. I wish they would not do that. It causes so much confusion for newbies who do not really understand how it works.,

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

So it looks like 23 & me works similar to how Ancestry does, which is basically guess at the relationship. I wish they would not do that. It causes so much confusion for newbies who do not really understand how it works.,

Well, I mean, they do flat out say it could be one of several  different things. But you have to actually click on the person and read what it says to see that. 

[Scarlett]

39 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, I mean, they do flat out say it could be one of several  different things. But you have to actually click on the person and read what it says to see that. 

Exactly.  Because 23&me guessed first cousin the tree has this unknown match appearing to come off the grandmothers branch so they are all convinced that means grandmother gave up a child 

[ktgrok]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly.  Because 23&me guessed first cousin the tree has this unknown match appearing to come off the grandmothers branch so they are all convinced that means grandmother gave up a child 

Can you not convince them to click on the name and see the disclaimer about other possibilities?

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Can you not convince them to click on the name and see the disclaimer about other possibilities?

Lol well my friend doesn’t even have 23 and me. She is showing me a screen shot of  what her daughter sent her. So I am a little handicapped in trying to help her.  

[ktgrok]

Just now, Scarlett said:

Lol well my friend doesn’t even have 23 and me. She is showing me a screen shot of  what her daughter sent her. So I am a little handicapped in trying to help her.  

Ah! Well, you can tell her that it says on the website that they are guessing based on percent DNA and flat out say there are several possibilities for each level of DNA shared. 

[LaughingCat]

I don't think either one is all that clear on the different possibilities even they do state that there are other options.  Here for example is my 1st cousin on 23andme -- notice the large 'tree' shown does NOT give the possiblity to click and see any of the other possibility: 

" likely share a set of grandparents. You could also be from different generations (removed cousins) or share only one ancestor (half cousins)."

 

And while Ancestry doesn't make it quite that 'conclusive looking', you do have to click on "more" to see the possible half-aunt/half-neice option -- which still makes it appear more unlikely even though it really is the same % DNA:

Edited March 27, 2021 by LaughingCat

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

Exactly.  Because 23&me guessed first cousin the tree has this unknown match appearing to come off the grandmothers branch so they are all convinced that means grandmother gave up a child 

I don’t know enough about 23andMe’s predicted tree feature to say much, but I’ve found mine doesn’t slide people in very willy nilly. I have several listed second cousins (and only one personally known irl) who clearly belong to certain branches but have not been auto added because the algorithm doesn’t know as much as I do about them. And yet I have further relationships that were automatically entered. On top of that, there are the ones I’ve added myself after speaking with those people.

Perhaps the account owner placed the person there based on the predicted relationship on the main DNA relatives page?

[DawnM]

I find this chart to be very helpful.

[KungFuPanda]

I'm guessing that double first cousins would show up as half siblings on these DNA sites and really gum up the works.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

I'm guessing that double first cousins would show up as half siblings on these DNA sites and really gum up the works.

We don’t have that particular issue but, whenI get to third and further cousins, there are lots of common relatives across my maternal and paternal sides. Then dd did hers, and now I’ve got HER paternal and maternal lines showing common relatives. (Nothing weird, so far as we can tell, lol, just long family histories in a tiny state!)

But I did have an aunt and an uncle who apparently tried to get a thing going at one point, so you never know what could pop up!

Edited March 28, 2021 by Carrie12345

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

I find this chart to be very helpful.

Oh yes, I refer to that often.  I am very familiar with Ancestry Nd have helped at least 3 people find birth parents....it is so much fun.  But I am was not that familiar with 23 and me. I suspected correctly.....that the tree is a guess. 

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know enough about 23andMe’s predicted tree feature to say much, but I’ve found mine doesn’t slide people in very willy nilly. I have several listed second cousins (and only one personally known irl) who clearly belong to certain branches but have not been auto added because the algorithm doesn’t know as much as I do about them. And yet I have further relationships that were automatically entered. On top of that, there are the ones I’ve added myself after speaking with those people.

Perhaps the account owner placed the person there based on the predicted relationship on the main DNA relatives page?

No they didn’t place this person there.  It was automatically generated.  Which again I don’t understand why these dna sites are assigning relationships like that.  There is no way to know what the relationship is based upon percentage of dna or cm....except for parent/child.  Or identical twin. 

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

No they didn’t place this person there.  It was automatically generated.  Which again I don’t understand why these dna sites are assigning relationships like that.  There is no way to know what the relationship is based upon percentage of dna or cm....except for parent/child.  Or identical twin. 

Well, with the predicted tree, they don’t really just use 2 people’s DNA. They can “see” which segments are shared, forming an indisputable* branch. It doesn’t mean they’ll get the precise relationship right, but the grouping is there.

*Indisputable if your third cousins aren’t your fourth cousins to your second cousins, etc.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, with the predicted tree, they don’t really just use 2 people’s DNA. They can “see” which segments are shared, forming an indisputable* branch. It doesn’t mean they’ll get the precise relationship right, but the grouping is there.

*Indisputable if your third cousins aren’t your fourth cousins to your second cousins, etc.

Here is the screen shot I was sent.  Hopefully I removed all identifying info. My friend’s daughter who tested is the main circle AR. The match in question is the small one to the right on the bottom.  If you follow it up it makes it look like my friends parents (both of them) are the grandparents of this unknown match.  So are you saying 23&me has enough info based on this tree to determine that is true? Because it doesn’t look to me like there is enough info( people who have tested) here to determine that.  

[maize]

20 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Here is the screen shot I was sent.  Hopefully I removed all identifying info. My friend’s daughter who tested is the main circle AR. The match in question is the small one to the right on the bottom.  If you follow it up it makes it look like my friends parents (both of them) are the grandparents of this unknown match.  So are you saying 23&me has enough info based on this tree to determine that is true? Because it doesn’t look to me like there is enough info( people who have tested) here to determine that.  

The tree generating feature on 23andMe seems to be down right now so I can't check but I'm pretty sure my grandmother's 1/2 cousins show up as having different grandfathers (they share a grandmother) on there. 23andMe trees are estimates not 100% guaranteed accurate but if it is showing a shared pair of grandparents I would guess that the cousin at a minimum has DNA related to both the grandmother and the grandfather's side (so, maybe shared grandmother but the grandfathers are brothers?) If the grandfathers were completely unrelated to each other I think it would show the two as half cousins not full cousins.

 

How many centimorgans of DNA do the two share?

 

She can also check for other in-common matches on both the grandfather and grandmother sides.

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, maize said:

The tree generating feature on 23andMe seems to be down right now so I can't check but I'm pretty sure my grandmother's 1/2 cousins show up as having different grandfathers (they share a grandmother) on there. 23andMe trees are estimates not 100% guaranteed accurate but if it is showing a shared pair of grandparents I would guess that the cousin at a minimum has DNA related to both the grandmother and the grandfather's side (so, maybe shared grandmother but the grandfathers are brothers?) If the grandfathers were completely unrelated to each other I think it would show the two as half cousins not full cousins.

 

How many centimorgans of DNA do the two share?

 

She can also check for other in-common matches on both the grandfather and grandmother sides.

Ok well that just blew my theory out of the water.  My friend has been telling me this tree means the unknown match is related to both her mother and her father.  So this would mean this unknown match’s parent is my friends full sibling. That is truly mind blowing.  That would mean my friend put a child up for adoption before my friend was born.  

[maize]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ok well that just blew my theory out of the water.  My friend has been telling me this tree means the unknown match is related to both her mother and her father.  So this would mean this unknown match’s parent is my friends full sibling. That is truly mind blowing.  That would mean my friend put a child up for adoption before my friend was born.  

That does happen sometimes. In one of my DNA groups a woman was just posting today about meeting her full brother who was born (and not adopted out) after she was adopted.

 

ETA I mean the friend's mother put a child up for adoption, not the friend.

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by maize

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, maize said:

That does happen sometimes. In one of my DNA groups a woman was just posting today about meeting her full brother who was born (and not adopted out) after she was adopted.

 

ETA I mean the friend's mother put a child up for adoption, not the friend.

 

Yes I know it does happen.....in fact I helped a stranger on Ancestry identify her grandparents and it turned  out they had stayed together after placing their first child for adoption and had 7 more kids together.  ( a side point this strangers father had no idea he was adopted and all of the extended family refused to believe the dna).

With my friend,  she was born when her mom was 19 and married for 2 years.  She had 2 more children after my friend while married to this man. This dna test friends daughter did shows conclusively the husband is not my friends bio dad.  And all of those matches I have blacked out tells her who her dad is.   So there you have the first thing.....her mom had an affair with a married man while she was also married and my friend is the result.  Now she is seeing that her mom may have had another child by this man before she married her husband and that child was placed for adoption.  
 

The second part is blowing every ones mind, more so than the first part.  

[ktgrok]

Am I the only one who doesn't think that tree is showing any siblings to AR?

[Scarlett]

@Carrie12345did you see the screenshot I posted? Does that mean the unknown match is related to my friends mom and dad? 

[maize]

23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Am I the only one who doesn't think that tree is showing any siblings to AR?

AR is the friend's daughter.

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, maize said:

AR is the friend's daughter.

AH

Ok, so mystery prson and AR are first cousins OR similar amount of DNA shared. Do we have DNA submitted for mystery person's parent? Or is 23 an me putting a place holder there, in the space for AR's aunt/uncle?  If we don't have DNA on them, then yes, 23 is just guessing it is a first cousin. Could also be a 1/2 aunt/uncle, meaning a half sibling of your friend, not a cousin of friend's daughter. 

[Scarlett]

26 minutes ago, maize said:

AR is the friend's daughter.

Yes. And my thinking is that the unknown match to the right of AR could be a half aunt to AR and half sibling to ARs mom.  But someone up thread said the branches indicate that the unknown match is related to AR grandmother AND grandfather. 

[ktgrok]

Ok, just checked my family tree. It does a best guess based on suspected relationship, but you can edit that relationship or confirm it in the DNA relatives list. And when you go to confirm your relationship it gives you a crap ton of choices. 

So I don't think, no, that the tree is set in stone as a definite. I think it's a guess. In fact, in the FAQ about the family tree part, I found this bit, which seems to imply yeah, they get it wrong and you have to manually fix it. I guess the biggest question and best clue is, how much DNA do they share?

 

 

[ktgrok]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Yes. And my thinking is that the unknown match to the right of AR could be a half aunt to AR and half sibling to ARs mom.  But someone up thread said the branches indicate that the unknown match is related to AR grandmother AND grandfather. 

IF it is a cousin, it would have to be related to both probably to have that level of DNA, or that is their best guess. But that same amount of DNA could easily be a half aunt. And unless they have the grandparents DNA, they wouldnt know

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

IF it is a cousin, it would have to be related to both probably to have that level of DNA, or that is their best guess. But that same amount of DNA could easily be a half aunt. And unless they have the grandparents DNA, they wouldnt know

Yes, I realize if it is a cousin that me she has to share grandparents with AR.  I guess my question is, can 23 and me possibly lay know that based upon the limited number of people who have tested? 
 

The grandfather of AR (bio dad of my friend) is dead. ARs gram other (my friends mom) is alive.  But I think if my friend tests it will be very apparent f this unknown match is a full sibling or a half sibling. It would help if the mom tests but I don’t think that would be necessary to determine the relationship of this unknown match.  
 

Also does anyone know how TX birth records work?  I searched the birth records for my friends mother and saw the 5 births I am aware of.  If she gave birth to a child she placed for adoption would it   be on those rolls?

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

@Carrie12345did you see the screenshot I posted? Does that mean the unknown match is related to my friends mom and dad? 

I really don’t have enough understanding to say that for certain. I haven’t seen a “half” relationship designated in my tree. (My kids did different companies). If it were me, I’d feel very confident that the dna came from at least one of them as opposed to a different branch of the family. Except in the possibility of a double cousin as was suggested.  If your friend’s parents had a brother and sister who made a baby, I coul pd see them being placed there.

[cuckoomamma]

The tree 23andMe generated for me was almost completely inaccurate. The relationships listed on the list of matches have been accurate or very close but the tree was a mess.  

[Tap]

When I first did 23 for my daughters I don't think any of the relations on my side of the family were correct. One of my daughters is genetically my half-great-niece. Entering my daughter's relationships helped (especially since they aren't genetic siblings). Then, one of my 7 uncles and his 3 kids did 23. Once I started shuffling relationships around, the accuracy improved greatly. It will be interesting to see what happens if more cousins do it because we have some double cousins in the family and adoptions. 

Like a lot of others have said, I would not trust 23's predictions until there are multiple family members relationships confirmed in the system. 

[cintinative]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:54 PM, maize said:

That does happen sometimes. In one of my DNA groups a woman was just posting today about meeting her full brother who was born (and not adopted out) after she was adopted.

 

ETA I mean the friend's mother put a child up for adoption, not the friend.

 

This happened to my mom. We knew she was adopted and finally (at over age 70) we used her birth certificate to try to track her birth family down. Fortunately, a cousin of mine (from my mom's birth family) is really into genealogy. So when I found the birth mom's details on Ancestry (birth mom had passed away), I contacted the tree creator, and "met" my cousin. My cousin had no idea my mom existed, so it was really weird for us both.  I found out that my mom had two siblings, both born after my mom. My mom was born only a couple of months after her birth parents married. The sister reported that mom said they didn't have money to raise her, so they gave her up (sister found this out very late in life).  Many years after the two other siblings were born, the birth mom left birth dad and moved away.  No one knows what really happened to birth dad, including his two younger children. The interesting bit is that her sister knew that my mom (her sister) existed, but not the brother. We all did genetic testing for that reason (he requested it), which confirmed she is their full sibling.  

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by cintinative
clarity

[Scarlett]

Update first post.