Jump to content

Menu

COVID - Getting Past the Anger or Embrace it?


Recommended Posts

23 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not all all. It is precisely what you suggested.

What other meaning ought someone take away from what you wrote???

You wrote:

I ask myself, is this stance making this person valueless to me?  Or actually dangerous to me?  If the answer is valueless, then I feel like I need to restrain myself, because it's just not right to think of people that way.

In the context of a thread on Covid and how to respond to people who have been reckless about spreading this disease.

Your words. Not mine.

No fallacies on my part. Sorry. That dog won't hunt.

We have more than a half a million dead Americans. The danger isn't in question

Bill

I did not question the danger, but rather mused about the general quickness to cut people off and my own need to slow myself down because that impulse is so pervasive in our society.  That was a topic in several of the other posts as well.  Again, as previously stated, I did not question the danger in this case but in the general case I question the impulse to reject.  It's too easy and too kneejerk in society right now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Who didn't?

Did you? I'd suggest taking another pass at reading your own words.

Bill

I've noticed that when people don't read you clearly, they just keep doubling down on whatever they want to argue about, whether you said it or not.  So there isn't a lot of point in continuing.  Because it's not a dialogue at that point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I did not question the danger, but rather mused about the general quickness to cut people off and my own need to slow myself down because that impulse is so pervasive in our society.  That was a topic in several of the other posts as well.  Again, as previously stated, I did not question the danger in this case but in the general case I question the impulse to reject.  It's too easy and too kneejerk in society right now.

Do you really find that it’s easy? Maybe people talk about it a lot or something, but I actually still think there’s a lot more judgment on the other side. I know I felt way more pressure to be more in touch with my mom than I ever did to limit contact, despite the fact that she’s narcissistic and corrosive and it’s been incredibly good for my mental health to talk to her less.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I've noticed that when people don't read you clearly, they just keep doubling down on whatever they want to argue about, whether you said it or not.  So there isn't a lot of point in continuing.  Because it's not a dialogue at that point.

And when people are dead wrong they resort to accusing others of making logical fallacies and try to evade from taking responsibility from the words they've written in black and white.

Gimme a break.

Bill

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Do you really find that it’s easy? Maybe people talk about it a lot or something, but I actually still think there’s a lot more judgment on the other side. I know I felt way more pressure to be more in touch with my mom than I ever did to limit contact, despite the fact that she’s narcissistic and corrosive and it’s been incredibly good for my mental health to talk to her less.

I hear it all the time, here and elsewhere in life.  It's much more common than it used to be to suggest it.  I find that concerning.T  There are times when it's needed, for sure, but it's becoming more the norm than the exception in a lot of circles that I see.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

And when people are dead wrong they resort to accusing others of making logical fallacies and try to evade from taking responsibility from the words they've written in black and white.

Gimme a break.

Bill

 

I have at no time in this thread questioned the danger of spreading the virus.  Elsewhere on this site I have criticized reluctance both to mask and to allow others to do so.  I am not wrong, and you are misrepresenting me utterly.  Enough already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I did not question the danger, but rather mused about the general quickness to cut people off and my own need to slow myself down because that impulse is so pervasive in our society.  That was a topic in several of the other posts as well.  Again, as previously stated, I did not question the danger in this case but in the general case I question the impulse to reject.  It's too easy and too kneejerk in society right now.

It is not a pervasive response with me. Quite the opposite. I'm always the one in my circle who preaches forgiveness and reconciliation.

What's too prevalent in our society to accept the atrocious behavior that's come out of the woodwork in recent years. We've been way too slow to reject it, if you ask me.

Evil is what it is.

Bill

 

 

 

Edited by Spy Car
  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, SKL said:

Gonna disagree with you here.  It's incredibly easy to not drink.  I've been doing it all my life.  It requires zero planning and costs nothing.  Most of the time, staying sober is far easier than drinking.

Masking requires planning.  Finding a type that works for you, acquisition, maintenance, having it physically ready when and where you need it.

It blows my mind that there are apparently people who are more accepting of drunk driving than walking around healthy without a mask.  Talk about eye opening.

I do know people who died or were seriously, permanently injured in drunk driving incidents.  Young, healthy people, some with little children at home.  I'm not angry, I'm just incredibly sad, and no, there is no excuse for driving drunk.

I really do think that if we had this discussion 2 years from now, it would be a lot different.  And that is a very good thing IMO.

Why do you think this is true?  (boldfaced)  I think that's kind of a bizarre statement to make.  I can't imagine anyone would feel this way.  Just because someone is being more vocal about something now, doesn't mean something else is less important.  I actually don't know a single person who feels drunk driving is okay.  I mean, even people who are drunk drivers will probably tell you it's not okay.  (They may deny they were drunk, or be mad about being arrested, but if a drunk driver killed someone in their own family they would be all up in arms about it!)  Also, encouraging mask-wearing seems like such a tiny, simple, uncomplicated thing to do compared with trying to convince someone not to drink and drive.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I have at no time in this thread questioned the danger of spreading the virus.  Elsewhere on this site I have criticized reluctance both to mask and to allow others to do so.  I am not wrong, and you are misrepresenting me utterly.  Enough already.

Your words speak for yourself.

Rather than defending them or explaining yourself, you try to lay the problem on others.

Look at yourself.

Bill

Edited by Spy Car
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I did not question the danger, but rather mused about the general quickness to cut people off and my own need to slow myself down because that impulse is so pervasive in our society.  That was a topic in several of the other posts as well.  Again, as previously stated, I did not question the danger in this case but in the general case I question the impulse to reject.  It's too easy and too kneejerk in society right now.

So it had nothing to do with the original topic of whether it makes sense to permanently alter relationships because of disagreements about COVID?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

(I would like to suggest that for many pro life people abortion isn't about the body of the woman at all.  Therefore, no, they don't see it as using the same argument.........because they aren't, from their perspective.)

The thing is that for pro mask people it isn’t about the body of the wearer either, but about protecting other people’s lives-“my mask protects you, your mask protects me”

And yet no matter how many times this is said it just is not taken on board by many. 

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

The thing is that for pro mask people it isn’t about the body of the wearer either, but about protecting other people’s lives-“my mask protects you, your mask protects me”

And yet no matter how many times this is said it just is not taken on board by many. 

They know. They don't care.

Bill

  • Like 2
  • Sad 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, historically accurate said:

As for the first bolded: Anger at people's actions does not equal hate. Sadness over friendships ending does not equal hate. Disappointment in people's actions or inactions does not equal hate. 

I have anger that I documented in an earlier post. I have loads of sadness when I look at the amount of deaths in the past year, and also in the fact that I can no longer look at some people with the same sunny beliefs I had prior to the pandemic. I am supremely disappointed in certain institutions and quite a few of my acquaintances. I do not hate a one of them. 

Disagreements over Covid does not equal hate. Discussing the differences does not equal a hatefest in my opinion. 

As for the second bolded: I don't know about anyone else, but in my case, I'm pretty sure it's grief, not fear that is causing the anger. I am grieving the loss of many friendships, the loss of my belief system (a journey I was already on, but it definitely sped up with the way that Christians around me responded to the pandemic), as well as the general loss of pre-Covid carefree-ness. I'll probably get over it in time. 

Man, I think Christians have really screwed up on this (amongst a lot of other things) and it has truly sickened me to the core.  I've definitely separated myself from the church* in general, but not from Jesus.  It could be that the church just really has it wrong.

ETA: *Not EVERY church (I love my own), but the general church “institution.”

Edited by J-rap
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, kokotg said:

So it had nothing to do with the original topic of whether it makes sense to permanently alter relationships because of disagreements about COVID?

It has to do with the broader question of whether it has become common enough now to permanently cut people off that we should maybe consider slowing that down.  I had already answered the OP specifically upthread.  This is a development of the ideas that were coming out later in the thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Why do you think this is true?  (boldfaced)  I think that's kind of a bizarre statement to make.  I can't imagine anyone would feel this way.  Just because someone is being more vocal about something now, doesn't mean something else is less important.  I actually don't know a single person who feels drunk driving is okay.  I mean, even people who are drunk drivers will probably tell you it's not okay.  (They may deny they were drunk, or be mad about being arrested, but if a drunk driver killed someone in their own family they would be all up in arms about it!)  Also, encouraging mask-wearing seems like such a tiny, simple, uncomplicated thing to do compared with trying to convince someone not to drink and drive.

I was referring to the pp's argument that it's more understandable when people drive drunk because it takes planning to not drive drunk.  She implied that it is a greater moral failing to not do something "easy" (even if you don't think it matters) than to drive drunk.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It has to do with the broader question of whether it has become common enough now to permanently cut people off that we should maybe consider slowing that down.  I had already answered the OP specifically upthread.  This is a development of the ideas that were coming out later in the thread.

The answer is no. People have been way too slow to stand up to the obvious evil in our midst.

Nothing to normalize. Time to say no more!

Bill

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Plum said:

Let’s face it, no one has gotten this 100% right. This is a novel virus and there have been plenty of mistakes and missteps long the way. I found this NYT article enlightening as to how we perceive Covid 

The mistakes people make

More than one-third of Republican voters, for example, said that people without Covid symptoms could not spread the virus. Similar shares said that Covid was killing fewer people than either the seasonal flu or vehicle crashes. All of those beliefs are wrong, and badly so. Asymptomatic spread is a major source of transmission, and Covid has killed about 15 times more Americans than either the flu or vehicle crashes do in a typical year.

Democrats, on the other hand, are more likely to exaggerate the severity of Covid. When asked how often Covid patients had to be hospitalized, a very large share of Democratic voters said that at least 20 percent did. The actual hospitalization rate is between 1 percent and 5 percent.

Democrats are also more likely to exaggerate Covid’s toll on young people and to believe that children account for a meaningful share of deaths. In reality, Americans under 18 account for only 0.04 percent of Covid deaths.

It’s true that some of these misperceptions reflect the fact that most people are not epidemiologists and that estimating medical statistics is difficult. Still, the errors do have a connection to real-world behavior, Rothwell told me.

 

3E432CCA-CFEE-4613-A044-C184F086AC63.png

I read this article, and actually was glad that the NYT published an article that appeared very unbiased.  Good for them!  I agree that there are a lot of unknowns, and have been all along.  Of course both sides will stick up strongly for certain points.  But what I don't understand is why people wouldn't err on the side of caution, knowing that it very well could protect people?  And when it's really such a very simple thing to do?  It just seems so obviously the compassionate action to take.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It's weird to me that you use the term evil so freely.

Not freely. Only when highly appropriate. 

I won't tell you what's weird to me.

Bill

 

 

Edited by Spy Car
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

It has to do with the broader question of whether it has become common enough now to permanently cut people off that we should maybe consider slowing that down.  I had already answered the OP specifically upthread.  This is a development of the ideas that were coming out later in the thread.

Okay, fair enough. I guess I can’t really imagine cutting someone off over something that I DON’T consider dangerous...if not to my privileged white middle class self, than to someone. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, I want to thank you for starting this thread.  I think a lot of us are going through this right now, and it's heartbreaking.  I am quite angry at many people in my life who have been quite selfish during this pandemic.  And, it's been a lot of people, unfortunately.  My home school circle has certain political leanings, and the area I live in is pretty much the same.  It has been so hurtful to live in this bubble and realize that I am not of the same mindset.  People who I thought were compassionate Christians or simply good people are the exact opposite.   

I was heartbroken for quite a while...borderline trauma for me.  But recently, I have given myself permission to take a stand, and just say NOPE.  If your house is burning down, or you need help with groceries, give me a call.  I'm here to help as your neighbor.  But we are not friends.  And I do not need to accept your lies as "differences in beliefs."  I clearly understand your point of view, and I think you are wrong.  See ya.  You'll miss me because I was one damn good friend and neighbor.

I had a home school friend call me and said she would be open to hear my POV as long as I am willing to listen to hers.  I told her NOT INTERESTED.

I had another homeschool friend send me a video about the dangers of the vaccine.  I texted back, NO THANKS.

I have a neighbor who came over to just chat and share her conspiracy theories.  She wanted to come in without a mask.  I said.  SORRY, BUSY. 

My new stance has actually been quite liberating for me.  I think it's okay to take a stand and say those ideas are not wanted in my world.  I'm trying to become a better person, and conversations with you are not helping.  BYE BYE.

If I didn't have the trauma of this year, I would have continued being the complacent person I was before.  Now I have a voice, and I'm using it.  I'm also finding other people who are smarter and stronger to inspire me to be a better, more compassionate person.  And I am closer to God for this, even though my church has failed me and my family.

Just know you are not alone.  Many of us are angry....and that's a good thing.  It's okay to say no.  Because, really, people's responses from this year have been a form of trauma for many of us.

Enough is enough. Nope. No thanks. Have a nice day.

 

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I hear it all the time, here and elsewhere in life.  It's much more common than it used to be to suggest it.  I find that concerning.T  There are times when it's needed, for sure, but it's becoming more the norm than the exception in a lot of circles that I see.

 Perhaps, Carol, the problem is that many people for years have acted disgracefully and abused the fact that their families were not willing to cut them off, to say "Decent people do not associate with people like that". 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, rainbird2 said:

OP, I want to thank you for starting this thread.  I think a lot of us are going through this right now, and it's heartbreaking.  I am quite angry at many people in my life who have been quite selfish during this pandemic.  And, it's been a lot of people, unfortunately.  My home school circle has certain political leanings, and the area I live in is pretty much the same.  It has been so hurtful to live in this bubble and realize that I am not of the same mindset.  People who I thought were compassionate Christians or simply good people are the exact opposite.   

I was heartbroken for quite a while...borderline trauma for me.  But recently, I have given myself permission to take a stand, and just say NOPE.  If your house is burning down, or you need help with groceries, give me a call.  I'm here to help as your neighbor.  But we are not friends.  And I do not need to accept your lies as "differences in beliefs."  I clearly understand your point of view, and I think you are wrong.  See ya.  You'll miss me because I was one damn good friend and neighbor.

I had a home school friend call me and said she would be open to hear my POV as long as I am willing to listen to hers.  I told her NOT INTERESTED.

I had another homeschool friend send me a video about the dangers of the vaccine.  I texted back, NO THANKS.

I have a neighbor who came over to just chat and share her conspiracy theories.  She wanted to come in without a mask.  I said.  SORRY, BUSY. 

My new stance has actually been quite liberating for me.  I think it's okay to take a stand and say those ideas are not wanted in my world.  I'm trying to become a better person, and conversations with you are not helping.  BYE BYE.

If I didn't have the trauma of this year, I would have continued being the complacent person I was before.  Now I have a voice, and I'm using it.  I'm also finding other people who are smarter and stronger to inspire me to be a better, more compassionate person.  And I am closer to God for this, even though my church has failed me and my family.

Just know you are not alone.  Many of us are angry....and that's a good thing.  It's okay to say no.  Because, really, people's responses from this year have been a form of trauma for many of us.

Enough is enough. Nope. No thanks. Have a nice day.

 

I think there are a LOT of people who've arrived at this place. And I think the people who expect their selfish choices over the past year to be brushed away as trivial "differences of opinion" are going to be shocked to discover that others see them in a whole new light now, and there is no going back from that. When people show you who they are, believe them. 

  • Like 11
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are absolutely people in my pre-COVID life that I will never voluntarily have anything to do with ever again. It's not about forgiveness, in my mind, it's just that I don't need that kind of energy around me, so I am moving right on.

I have read some statements and seen some things that I can never un-see from people that I previously thought were considerate, caring people. I'm not just saying these were people questioning the mask restrictions or something - but they said and did things far beyond simply questioning or not always wearing a mask.

Life is too short to spend my time with people like that. I had no idea before Covid. Now that I know better, I'll do better and spend my time in the company of people whose first response was to be thoughtful, reasonable, and considerate of others as we all tried to figure out wth was going on with all of this.

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I might inwardly roll my eyes at someone who complains about mask mandates, if they still obey the mandates anyways (which is actually all the people I know of the complaining types), then I'm not going to be angry at them.  They are welcome to gripe about it even if I don't agree with them that it's such a big deal.  But I am not a fan of complainers so that might cool my opinion of them to some extent. 

If I hear that they are getting together with others while unmasked in small groups (no one I know has done the huge party thing) then I will silently judge them as playing Russian Roulette with their health and the health of those around them.  And I will stay far far away because while I am gambling a bit while going to the grocery store (masked) etc. I see this as a bigger and unnecessary gamble.  I do recognize though that there is a spectrum of carefulness out there.  I am not as cautious as some who have not done any in-store shopping since the pandemic started but I am obeying all of our state guidelines (which as I mentioned earlier have kept rates here fairly under control).  I have been very happy that 80% of the people I know in this category are getting vaccinated for Covid so I feel like that lowers the risk some more. 

If they pass on misinformation I am not as patient.  I will refute it clearly.  I'm not really interested in a pissing match but I will take your video from your "expert" (who is actually a veterinarian) and raise you one from an actual epidemiologist.  (This last was an actual example from last week.)  The reason why this is a bigger deal for me is because these people are passing on this rubbish to other more gullible people and if they believe it, it can actually hurt them.  And I do believe in actual verifiable scientific facts with regards to Covid. 

  • Like 11
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, SKL said:

Well, what is forgiveness other than you letting go of something that is eating you?

I’m still on page one, but this is an important question (IMO, at least.) I’ve struggled for years and debated with therapists, lol, with the concepts of forgiveness and trust, and what they’re “supposed to” mean.  I’ve learned that it doesn’t really matter what they’re supposed to mean to other people. They’re pretty much just feelings based on my own reality.

I have cut ties with some people over the past year. I don’t feel any pull to forgive them of their self-centeredness that isn’t going to change. I’ll likely avoid others who’ve been less... let’s say offensive, but I don’t trust them.


And then there are still some with whom I continue to struggle. They’re people I want in my life, but they’ve made some choices that sort of anger me... but mostly just hurt. I’m sad, I feel let down, and I don’t know how to manage moving forward. They’ve never outwardly criticized or disrespected me or my position the few times we’ve been in the same place, but they’ve made decisions elsewhere to take risks I can’t condone. 

I’m grateful that I don’t have any close relatives who’ve blatantly disregarded science. I’m glad I have some close friends who have been on the same page the whole time. But my “chosen family” is going to take some serious work for me to find some sort of inner reconciliation of dissonance.

They in no way need me to say “I forgive you.” In fact, that would likely cause more problems.  *I need to sort *my feelings. And it’s hard.  Being human is complicated.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, J-rap said:

Yes, I have been very angry.  I'm not an angry person:  I might feel sadness, or disappointment, or be upset in the moment.  But this lingering anger is kind of a new feeling for me.  I don't like it at all, and it doesn't feel good.  I don't think it's good to let it just sit and fester, but I do think it's fine as an alarm.  It's nudging me to wake up, pay attention, work at understanding, take action.  Perhaps, it stems more from a sadness than anything.

Yes. I'm not by nature an angry person. Brief flashes of irritation--yes, sure. Lots of those. But the type of deep, simmering anger I felt last March was a totally new thing. Never felt that before, and I'm not all that far from 60 years old. It caught me totally off guard, and startled me in lots of ways. It actually scared me quite a lot. And it's taken me a full year to unpack. So I'm kind of rolling my eyes at those who suggest people are "quick" to cut people off. Is a year quick? I don't think so. And we've all had that long to deal with this.

 

4 hours ago, rainbird2 said:

My new stance has actually been quite liberating for me.  I think it's okay to take a stand and say those ideas are not wanted in my world.  I'm trying to become a better person, and conversations with you are not helping.  BYE BYE.

 

Same.

 

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I think the people who expect their selfish choices over the past year to be brushed away as trivial "differences of opinion" are going to be shocked to discover that others see them in a whole new light now, and there is no going back from that. When people show you who they are, believe them. 

Yes. It's almost always the wrongdoers who urge others to forgive and forget, and who often resort to gaslighting to do so. I think the totality of what we've experienced over the past four or five years has taught a lot of us to recognize gaslighting and other types of psychological manipulation for what it is, and to call it out when we see it. And that's a good, healthy thing.

  • Like 14
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

Mercy...

I am genuinely wondering if you can explain how you personally reconcile respecting a person who has a pro choice belief, with your personal beliefs about being pro choice?  I am hoping you don't feel like I am calling you out specifically but since you seem to interact extremely respectfully to those who otherwise have a very opposite stance on abortion, and it involves such high stakes, I think your ability differentiate might bring an interesting thought process to the discussion.  

Thank you for your kind words. That’s a very interesting question!!

It probably goes without saying, but I don’t respect the pro-choice *position*. No one has the right to take someone else’s life, unless their own life is under serious and imminent threat. (And in those cases, every possible means should be undertaken to save both lives.)

I will never pretend that all views are equally worthy of respect. They are not. And if someone holds uninformed and morally indefensible views I am going to think less of them than I do of someone who seeks to protect the lives of other human beings. 

Re: respect for those who hold pro-choice views, here on the forum. Two things make it possible for me:

First: On this forum, I’ve found that most have actually thought through their position thoroughly and understand basic facts about science and prenatal development. I have *not* always found that to be the case when interacting with other pro-choice people. I have much more respect for a person who has actively sought out information, grappled with a topic, and is intellectually honest than I do for someone who is willfully ignorant and intentionally reckless—like anti-maskers.

Secondly: Many people here who hold pro-choice beliefs would not abort their own child or encourage others to do so. Do I still believe they are supporting something that causes grave danger to other human beings? YES. Would I vote for them? Trust them to counsel my teenage daughter? Trust them to lead me in spiritual matters? Trust them to make public policy? No, no, no, and no. But they are not actively, daily committing harm upon other people in the same way anti-maskers are. 

This is why it is possible for me to be friends with someone who, for example, supports war hawk political leaders. They are supporting someone who causes harm to others, but there is a degree of separation there that is not present with anti-maskers. 

There are anti-maskers in my life whom I will choose to continue to be friends with. If I cut them off, it is no exaggeration to say that my daughter would have only one friend left. I have no choice but to continue to interact with them. But I won’t look at them the same ever again. I won’t trust them to counsel my daughter. I won’t trust them to make good decisions when it comes to public policy. And I won’t trust them to lead me spiritually—and that is something my husband and I are making decisions about now.

Edited by MercyA
  • Like 16
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Skipped a bunch of replies due to time - but thinking it over, two groups are who I'm most angry at:

1. Religious people who are twisting the faith to encourage poor behavior. It's blasphmey. And I think it is likely closely tied to the idea that bad things only happen to bad people, and if you live your life right God will protect you stuff, which is also blasphemy and completely unbiblical. But it explains it - why bother protecting others if only "bad" people get sick? Ugh. Puke. Do these people miss the part with the Christian martyrs, or that Jesus himself was perfect and still had "bad stuff" happen to him???? Also, people who think Christianity doesn't involve sacrifce - again...how do you miss the concept of sacrifice when there is a giant cross at the front of the church???? 

2. Ableist. Those who, without saying it in so many words, basically imply that anyone who gets sick or dies well, they were expendable. When you go around saying that a healthy immune system can fight this off so no precautions should be taken, what you are also saying, without using the words, is that an UNhealthy immune system might not...but you don't care about those people. Too bad, so sad. 

People who are simply repeating what they "heard" and don't truly grasp the science...I am frustrated by them, and try to clarify but it is different. 

  • Like 12
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

A weird thing reading this thread is that it feels like literally no one has changed their mind since the beginning of the pandemic.  And I feel like I’m living in an alternative reality right now... 

Maybe not on here but many people I know in real life have changed from caring and sewing masks to thinking it's overblown. It is hard not to when they know lots of people who've had it without going to the hospital and fewer or more likely none who have died. 

2-5% hospitalization rate added to the fact that it clusters big time means a large number won't have been touched by Covid (while others lose multiple)  but everyone can clearly see economic destruction. Trying to explain that 3% of a very large number (because it is so contagious) can still overwhelm hospital capacity is difficult. It is hard for them to see another person's perspective especially if they have lost a lifetime of labor to the government through the loss of a business that may have taken years to get started. You are arguing with the reality they are actually living.

 

 

I realize I should have clarified my post above. I very much believe Christians must obey the word of God so it frustrates me what passes for Christianity but I don't hate them. I just wish that scriptures were thoroughly taught and obeyed rather than politically twisted versions. I am glad it is revealed who is listening to the shepherd and who is living in rebellion and fear. I see people in a lot of fear on both sides of this issue and my job is to care about those people. I realize that isn't what everyone believes and I shouldn't expect it of them but it is what I believe.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would just say there is a difference between 1) agreeing and 2) agreeing to disagree.  I know we all know that, but some of the posts above suggest people are conflating the two.

As for cutting off, I have cut off many conversations, but I don't cut off people for differences of opinion.  If they were driving while drunk, if they knowingly had "close contact" with my parents while Covid+, or if they shot a gun randomly around the neighborhood, then yes, that is a whole other thing. 

I have long noticed that there are some people who have big mouths, but when it comes to actions, they do what they are supposed to do, at least as much as the average person.  I don't always enjoy hearing the BS, but it doesn't make me angry or scared.

As for whether it influences others, I think that depends.  I have a fb friend who today posted that xyz [world event] happened because of the current alignment of the stars and planets.  She is also loudly anti mask / vax online.  (I don't know her in person, so who knows what she actually does.)  Do I think people change their behavior because of her fringe fb posts?  No, I honestly don't.  Only people already disposed to believe as she believes would follow her suggestions.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, frogger said:

Maybe not on here but many people I know in real life have changed from caring and sewing masks to thinking it's overblown. It is hard not to when they know lots of people who've had it without going to the hospital and fewer or more likely none who have died. 

2-5% hospitalization rate added to the fact that it clusters big time means a large number won't have been touched by Covid (while others lose multiple)  but everyone can clearly see economic destruction. Trying to explain that 3% of a very large number (because it is so contagious) can still overwhelm hospital capacity is difficult. It is hard for them to see another person's perspective especially if they have lost a lifetime of labor to the government through the loss of a business that may have taken years to get started. You are arguing with the reality they are actually living.

 

 

I realize I should have clarified my post above. I very much believe Christians must obey the word of God so it frustrates me what passes for Christianity but I don't hate them. I just wish that scriptures were thoroughly taught and obeyed rather than politically twisted versions. I am glad it is revealed who is listening to the shepherd and who is living in rebellion and fear. I see people in a lot of fear on both sides of this issue and my job is to care about those people. I realize that isn't what everyone believes and I shouldn't expect it of them but it is what I believe.

 

So people are still seeing it as an either/or thing?  Either the economy or control the virus.  

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remain friends with people with differing beliefs and values than I have on many subjects--from the death penalty to minimum wage, frorm wearing masks to driving faster than the speed limits, from abortion to driving through the yellow light...  Some, I choose not to ride in a car with.   Some I hope are never on a jury if I am no trial. Some, I choose the topics I will discuss with them.  Some, I can have a civil debate with.

In this situation I can see several different places at which disagreement can come into play:

What is the probability that I am presymptomatic/asymptomatic?

What is the probability that I am contagious if I am presymptomatic/asymptomatic?

What is the probability that someone I come in contact with will become infected?

What is the probability that wearing a mask will reduce that risk?

What is the probabiity of severe illness if they do become sick because of me?

What is my moral responsibility to prevent that probability?

I don't think we know those probabilities.  I think we have some idea of ranges. A very small change in what someone is assuming at any one of these steps can cause a large change in the perception of the riskiness of the situation.  When I am talking to someone, I find it helpful to decompose my own stance, and their stance,--are we coming to different conclusions because of different estimates of probabilities?  Are our estimates reasonable? Are we drawing an illogical conclusion based upon the mathematics?  Do we have a differing philosophy regarding our moral responsibility?

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

So people are still seeing it as an either/or thing?  Either the economy or control the virus.  

They see no one that they know having died or in some cases even hospitalized despite knowing many many people who had Covid. This isn't the news. This is what they see IRL with their own eyes. That is hard to argue with. When everyone you know has had what amounts to a cold it is hard not to believe that it is hyped.

 

They also have seen many many friends lose their livelihoods. This is what they are currently experiencing, IRL.

 

They don't see what might have happened. They do see what has happened. I know that if we had gotten hit worse, or if they were in a group that was getting hit harder, they would probably see things differently.

This isn't about abstract arguments but their own life experiences. 

Edited by frogger
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I think there are a LOT of people who've arrived at this place. And I think the people who expect their selfish choices over the past year to be brushed away as trivial "differences of opinion" are going to be shocked to discover that others see them in a whole new light now, and there is no going back from that. When people show you who they are, believe them. 

Yep. I keep saying that the church has no idea how much damage they have done to their reputation. 

And the uncomfortable thing for me is that this is who they have always been but I didn't notice because it didn't affect me personally. 

My eyes are much more open than they were before and I'm not alone in this. 

I anticipate that the manipulative language and angry lashing out is actually going to be worse when these groups realize how much credibility they've lost. They won't take accountability and instead will lash out and blame people on the outside. 

 

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wanted to come back to say I really do make a distinction between the attitude of "I'm not worried, an other people are not my problem" or "it's immoral to take precautions" and then also spreading that view and being disdainful or mean or agressive o those that do take precautions, and those that just are confused on the science - mostly do to a super crappy job done by our leadership in getting accurate, consistent information out. 

In point, today I went to pick up some pieces of sod from a local, family owned business. They are good, honest, moral people who go out of their way to help others. They put up a plexi glass shield to protect the front staff. But the staff (family of the owner) are not wearing masks for the most part. I really don't think, from other interactions I've had with them, that they think they are putting others at risk (and given how quick an interaction is with them, they likely are not - it's a 5 minute transaction if you go in, and most business is done via the phone anyway). I think they are not being cautious enough, but I also think they are trying and think they are doing what they should. 

That is very different than businesses I see with signs pointing out they won't enforce mask mandates, or the neighbor who flat out said it isn't his job to worry about other people, or the person in the homeschool group accusing people of child neglect for using masks. 

I'm not mad at the sod people. I will still do business with them, until or unless I find out they fall into that "don't give a crap about others" pile.Same with some boardies here. I'm going to just assume they have inaccurate information, or whatever. Not going to ask them for medical advice - but not going to shun them or whatever. Same with the guy that has his mask pulled down but puts it up if I ask,or when he gets near to me. 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Personally, I'm thinking I'm going to embrace the "I'm a Christian, I don't need to live in fear" slogan the next time someone says they won't vaccinate due to fears of microchips, signs of the devil, or whatever. 

I just booked appointments for both me and DH for the first dose. I commented to DH that I almost feel sorry for the people who won't get the vaccine. It's such a relief knowing that we will be vaccinated. (I know there are always risks associated with any vaccine and there is never a 100% guarantee that the vaccine will prevent all complications from COVID.) 

There's a part of me that feels that once everyone who wants to be vaccinated can get the shot that I won't worry anymore about infecting people who won't vaccinate. IDK. If they won't take this step to protect themselves, what do I owe them? 

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

There's a part of me that feels that once everyone who wants to be vaccinated can get the shot that I won't worry anymore about infecting people who won't vaccinate. IDK. If they won't take this step to protect themselves, what do I owe them? 

 

The problem is that how do we know who chooses not to, vs who can't be, you know? People with allergies to vaccine components, etc? They need us to get to herd immunity. 

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

Third, it seems like as you listen to what the people have to say, you are evaluating the actual thought processes they have.  So you might not respect their position, but it seems like you can respect, in many cases, how they got to where they are, based on what things they learned, thought about etc.  The conclusion was wrong, but it was a well researched conclusion and that matters.

 

Right! WHY they are anti mask makes a difference to be - is it due to having inaccurate or out of date facts, or is it due to say a sensory issue, or is it that they just don't care or what? If their hearts are in the right place, I am understanding of different conclusions. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I really want from people is thoughtfulness and good intentions and some evidence that they care about people other than themselves. Lots of people this year have been saying the quiet part out loud, though. "It's being blown out of proportion, because the fatality rate for people under 70 is really low." Etc. When people tell you who they are...

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

 

So that sounds very much in line with what the OP posted, later in the thread.  She said something to the effect of "tell me 'look, I have looked at the data, I don't think masks are very effective based on X.'  And differentiated that from people using manipulative language like "faith, not fear" or calling people "sheeple" or other such rudeness.   

 

 

In fact, it actually seems, as I am reading more posts, is that for most people, the anger is directed not necessarily at "anti maskers" so much as people who are, to use the phrase I used before...rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.  It seems that the anger is more directed toward name calling, manipulating, and generally, nastiness, and not so much people that you (general you) might disagree with, but who have generally been respectful back.

 

In general, Mercy and others.....do I have that understanding mostly correct?

 

For me -- No. What you said is not at all where I'm coming from. I detest manipulative/bullying language, but regarding Covid I base my opinions more on actions. I can roll my eyes at someone calling others sheeple (how utterly stupid that is, anyway? I mean just slap the stupid sticker on your forehead) and things like that as long as their actions don't put others at risk. Say whatever idiocy you want as long as you wear the mask, social distance, avoid large gatherings, etc. It's people in my life, people I know well, who didn't do those things and therefore put others at risk that my anger is (mostly) directed at.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

The problem is that how do we know who chooses not to, vs who can't be, you know? People with allergies to vaccine components, etc? They need us to get to herd immunity. 

 

It's my understanding that they are advising everyone to get the vaccine, even those who usually do not vaccinate for medical reasons. Without herd immunity, the risk of COVID far outweighs the risk of the vaccine. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, kokotg said:

All I really want from people is thoughtfulness and good intentions and some evidence that they care about people other than themselves. Lots of people this year have been saying the quiet part out loud, though. "It's being blown out of proportion, because the fatality rate for people under 70 is really low." Etc. When people tell you who they are...

Exactly - that's the ableist crap that makes me angry. "or, it only kills people with pre-existing conditions". Ok, so old people and people with diabetes or an organ transplant or whatever are not worth saving? They don't matter?

  • Like 10
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/25/2021 at 11:06 AM, Ordinary Shoes said:

My parents visited us last week after their 2nd dose of the vaccine. It was the first we saw them in person since January of 2020. They had COVID in November and my dad was hospitalized for a few days. It was obvious that he has not fully regained his strength. He doesn't have as much energy as he had before and he tires easily. I hate to admit this but I have a feeling that his bout with COVID will probably shorten his life. 

Another person that I know died of COVID last week. She had many medical conditions and very low cognitive abilities. She was depending on everyone around her to be try to protect her. 

I found that I was almost seething with anger at people who denied the reality of the pandemic, people who refused to wear masks, and people who are now refusing to get vaccinated. 

I recently read an article that I can't find now that discussed how most of us have a flawed understanding of forgiveness because it does not include justice. It's a kind of gaslighting when we're told that we are supposed to forgive without changes being made or acknowledgement that something was wrong. 

I know that anger can be crippling and it isn't always good for us to hold onto it but anger is not always bad. I recently came out of a religious environment where anger was seen as bad. It encouraged a kind of passivity, IMHO. I'd felt for a long time that there something wrong with this. Some things deserve anger. It also seems like encouraging this kind of passivity benefits people in power. 

I can't be the only one who feels like this right now. Where are you at in your anger journey over COVID? 

I feel like this is one of those dividing events, that many of us are emotionally disconnecting from others over how they reacted to COVID and there won't be a coming back together in the future. Does that make sense? 

 

Hi, late to this thread, but I am trying to figure out what you mean by the bolded above.  Are you saying the article you read says that 'Forgiveness does not include justice and if you believe that it does you have a flawed understanding of what forgiveness is.' ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It’s funny because in my world the people spewing the most garbage is the older people (every last one of them is over 70). It’s hard to stay upset when they’re told they’re at risk but they just don’t care. At least dh’s parents were both vaccinated but my mom and step dad aren’t even doing that much. It is what it is and I’ve chosen to let it go.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Exactly - that's the ableist crap that makes me angry. "or, it only kills people with pre-existing conditions". Ok, so old people and people with diabetes or an organ transplant or whatever are not worth saving? They don't matter?

That one especially bites when said by the very large neighbor who is routinely holding his [insert name of sugary drink or alcoholic whatever], and probably hasn’t exercised since high school.  Pretty sure his BMI would bump him into a high risk category, but whatever, he is traveling and partying and life is normal in his world.  No masks, no distancing.

I have very few IRL friends who don’t have some sort of pre-existing condition.  And we’re a pretty health conscious crowd, it’s mostly genetic type stuff or things that don’t fall under preventable diseases.  Not lifestyle diseases.  We all work out, hike, eat right.

Being told we are expendable really sucks.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Exactly - that's the ableist crap that makes me angry. "or, it only kills people with pre-existing conditions". Ok, so old people and people with diabetes or an organ transplant or whatever are not worth saving? They don't matter?

I have really struggled with this thought process. My in laws were part of the "just protect the vulnerable crowd" but then complained when they were constantly having trouble seeing Grandma before she died. They thought it was cruel to die alone. I agreed but they couldn't piece together that that was exactly what they were advocating. Completely isolating the vulnerable. It was beyond frustrating dealing with them. Yes, she was about to pass on but when they (completely careless people) were visiting they weren't just endangering her but all the other residents. 

 

  • Sad 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, afaik nobody said people at risk are expendable.  The point is that community health measures need to target the actual risks, and some people feel that some of the measures fail at that.

And while I agree it's wrong to completely blow off the risks, IMO it's no better to exaggerate the dangers, which continues to happen.  "Better safe than sorry" doesn't work, because you're trading one kind of "sorry" for another.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could very easily be angry with one of my best friends.  She chose to fly with her two adult children and granchild to visit her mother who was in great health.  Her trip could easily be seen as frivoulous, trivial, and selfish in the midst of a pandemic. Her mother was able to enjoy two great days with her great grandson.  Then, she experienced a fall, and if my friend had not been there to get immediate medical attention she may have died.  It is questionable at this time whether the great grandson will ever get to see his great grandmother again in a healty, lucid state; this may have been the only opportunity ever.  

Was it reckless for my friend to take the trip?  Did she not care about others she may infect if she were asymptomatic?  Is it OK now that we know in retrospect that it probably saved her mother's life?  Would it not have been OK that had not been the case?  I simply cannot come to a conclusion that I think is the "right" conclusion and spend energy being angry at others for reaching a different conclusion.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...