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COVID - Getting Past the Anger or Embrace it?


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19 minutes ago, SKL said:

Do you have evidence that all or nearly all Covid spread is in unmasked situations?

I believe there is plenty of evidence that masking significantly reduces transmission. You don't have to get spread to zero to end the pandemic. At least that's my understanding. If each person infects, on average, less than one other person, then the pandemic will end naturally even if there are some cases. I know that in my school district and others nearby, they claim that contact tracing has determined that most cases in the schools happen in instances where there's non-compliance with masking or where masking is not required (eating, indoor sports, etc). https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7008e4.htm

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All nine transmission clusters involved less than ideal physical distancing, and five involved inadequate mask use by students.

 

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Just now, Cnew02 said:

I guess I’m not sure why you feel so judged and defensive then?  This thread was started with people talking about extreme selfishness behavior and rudeness.  I consider myself pro-mask and you’re described behavior is almost identical to mine.  Why would you feel like someone saying they are mad at extreme selfishness was in anyway referencing you, when your masking and distancing behavior sounds fine?    

Well some people actually are accusing me, even in this thread, of not caring who dies.

Besides that, most of my comments have not been defensive of myself, but discussion points or defenses / explanations of others' points of view.  Just because I may not agree on every point doesn't mean I am emotionally affected by the disagreement.

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2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I believe there is plenty of evidence that masking significantly reduces transmission. You don't have to get spread to zero to end the pandemic. At least that's my understanding. If each person infects, on average, less than one other person, than the pandemic will end naturally even if there are some cases. I know that in my school district and others nearby, they claim that contact tracing has determined that most cases in the schools happen in instances where there's non-compliance with masking or where masking is not required (eating, indoor sports, etc). https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7008e4.htm

 

My vote, of course, is for ideal physical distancing AND masks, but based on this study it appears that masks have the edge. Do both and you can open schools fairly safely! 

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I feel like I'm in the unusual position in this thread of arguing that schools can be made fairly safe with the right precautions, while the mask skeptics are essentially arguing that there's no way to make schools safe no matter what we do! I did not anticipate arguing this position when the school year started.

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5 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I feel like I'm in the unusual position in this thread of arguing that schools can be made fairly safe with the right precautions, while the mask skeptics are essentially arguing that there's no way to make schools safe no matter what we do! I did not anticipate arguing this position when the school year started.

It depends what you mean by safe.

There are lots of schools that are doing what you suggest - distancing plus masking - and have been all year.  There have been some Covid cases at those schools.  Since Covid is almost always mild in kids, that could still mean "safe," as long as the kids don't spread it to at-risk people.  Or maybe "safe" accepts that some at-risk people are still going to get it, just not as many.  [Like a "safe" vaccine doesn't mean nobody gets sick or dies from it.]

FTR, my kids are now in school full-time (masked, somewhat distanced), and I am ecstatic.  They may still get Covid and bring it home.  I still want them in school.

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Just now, SKL said:

There have been some Covid cases at those schools.  Since Covid is almost always mild in kids, that could still mean "safe," as long as the kids don't spread it to at-risk people.  Or maybe "safe" accepts that some at-risk people are still going to get it, just not as many.

 

If only teachers didn't exist and kids lived in adult-free bubbles, things would be much easier.

Yes, there have been some covid cases. Again, I'm astounded to find myself on this side of things, but the evidence has shown that in schools taking precautions like distancing and masking, the number of cases is similar to or less than what you would find in the general population. The same is not true for teachers and staff (at this point, I believe, teachers and staff are eligible for vaccines in every state, so that part is on the way to becoming academic/a subject to be dealt with in future lawsuits). The same is not true in schools that are not requiring masking and/or distancing. 

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So what do I mean by safe? Well, that's why I said "fairly safe." There is always going to be some risk when you put people together indoors. Is some amount of risk worth it so that kids can go to school? Sure, probably. How much risk? That's trickier. What I'm absolutely confident about, though, is that schools owe it to students, teachers, staff, and to the communities they exist in to do everything in their power to make it as safe as possible. If adminstrators don't have the guts to stand up to parents throwing temper tantrums about their angels having to wear masks to school, then they're in the wrong line of work.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

If we found a fountain of perfect health, would I be happy?  Of course.  Would I believe everyone should be required to drink from it?  Probably not, but it really doesn't matter since there is no such fountain and never will be.

I think you're looking at this in a much individualistic way than other posters here. 

Say there was a foundation of perfect health and individuals got to decide whether they would drink from it. From an individualistic perspective that makes sense. Your body, your choice. 

However, our health affects others. If we have an opportunity to prevent ourselves from developing a condition that requires significant resources, do we have an obligation to do that? Healthcare resources are not unlimited. 

Our choices affect others and their choices affect us. 

Look at seatbelt laws. Should individuals have the right to not wear their seatbelt? I can see an argument for that. However, if someone refuses to wear a seatbelt and gets in a car accident will he/she use healthcare resources that won't be available for someone else? If so, does he/she still have the right to refuse to wear a seatbelt? 

Then we should consider how healthcare services are paid for. Few of us pay completely out of pocket for all of our own healthcare services. The costs are borne by everyone who is insured with that plan. If I'm in the same plan as someone who takes no precautions against COVID, my own premiums could go up because of increased expenses for the plan as a whole. 

Then with a virus, every infected person is a risk to others. There are all kinds of interesting examples throughout history of people grudgingly concluding that there was a benefit to vaccinating people that they didn't like to protect themselves. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I think you're looking at this in a much individualistic way than other posters here. 

Say there was a foundation of perfect health and individuals got to decide whether they would drink from it. From an individualistic perspective that makes sense. Your body, your choice. 

However, our health affects others. If we have an opportunity to prevent ourselves from developing a condition that requires significant resources, do we have an obligation to do that? Healthcare resources are not unlimited. 

Our choices affect others and their choices affect us. 

Look at seatbelt laws. Should individuals have the right to not wear their seatbelt? I can see an argument for that. However, if someone refuses to wear a seatbelt and gets in a car accident will he/she use healthcare resources that won't be available for someone else? If so, does he/she still have the right to refuse to wear a seatbelt? 

Then we should consider how healthcare services are paid for. Few of us pay completely out of pocket for all of our own healthcare services. The costs are borne by everyone who is insured with that plan. If I'm in the same plan as someone who takes no precautions against COVID, my own premiums could go up because of increased expenses for the plan as a whole. 

Then with a virus, every infected person is a risk to others. There are all kinds of interesting examples throughout history of people grudgingly concluding that there was a benefit to vaccinating people that they didn't like to protect themselves.

Individuals having a moral obligation to do xyz is different from a legal mandate.

If people are so pro legal mandates, why not a mandate to take vitamin D, which is easy and reduces Covid risk?

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7 minutes ago, SKL said:

Individuals having a moral obligation to do xyz is different from a legal mandate.

If people are so pro legal mandates, why not a mandate to take vitamin D, which is easy and reduces Covid risk?

I know I'm kind of jumping in mid-conversation, but I had some thoughts on this.  It seems like the direction you're trying to take with is getting tangled in too many details.  You can go into rabbit hole after rabbit hole with this way of thinking.  We don't function that way as a society, and it also begins to feel way too complicated.  For example, you can tell people to never drive in the fog, or when it's raining, or after dark, or if they slept less than 5 hours the night before, or in sandals instead of good solid shoes, or when they're angry, or whatever.  All of those things can affect your driving safely.  But, that would never work.  We don't live that way.  So we make it simple:  drive within the speed limit, seatbelt on, and within acceptable alcohol levels.  

Same goes with Covid.  We know masks help.  We know distancing helps.  We also know people want to and need to get back to life ~ including gatherings, jobs, school, shopping, even haircuts.  So we make it simple:  wear a mask indoors in public spaces, and distance yourself from others if you can.   Sure, there are lots and lots of other things you can do, but like most everything else, we break it down to the best bang for the buck.  It means the outcome won't be perfect, but most people would never do what's required for the perfect outcome.  It's about finding a smart balance.

 

 

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6 hours ago, kand said:

Again, that’s looking at it as being all about protecting oneself. Masks are primarily about protecting others. It’s mandating you not go around unbuckling other people’s seatbelts. Same as it not being okay to spit on someone. It’s not fine because it’s your right to spit. In a pandemic, not wearing a mask to keep one’s droplets contained is saying it’s your right to infect other people. It’s not. 

Staying healthy does protect others.  It reduces the risk of spreading Covid to others. 

If just being able to fight off Covid wasn't helpful to the community, then the Moderna and Pfizer vaxes would also be just about protecting oneself.

PS it is certainly not anybody's right (legal or moral) to spit on others.

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13 hours ago, SKL said:

Based on the info I currently have, masks make sense if I am going to be breathing the same air as another person [outside my household] for more than a brief time period (say half a minute or more, though I try not to breathe the same air at all).

 

How is this position any different than the one pro mask people are advocating? I don't think it is. 

13 hours ago, Cnew02 said:

I guess I’m not sure why you feel so judged and defensive then?  This thread was started with people talking about extreme selfishness behavior and rudeness.  I consider myself pro-mask and you’re described behavior is almost identical to mine.  Why would you feel like someone saying they are mad at extreme selfishness was in anyway referencing you, when your masking and distancing behavior sounds fine?    

This keeps happening. In another thread someone said they got upset with this thread because we thought people like her, that have to work, didn't care about people dying and were being careless. Mind you, she says she masks at work, and no one on this thread has said anything about people not going to work. Yet, we all are angry at people for working, supposedly?

13 hours ago, SKL said:

Well some people actually are accusing me, even in this thread, of not caring who dies.

 

Can you quote one of the posts where people accused you of not caring who dies? I have not seen any posts directed at you about that. 

13 hours ago, SKL said:

If we found a fountain of perfect health, would I be happy?  Of course.  Would I believe everyone should be required to drink from it?  Probably not, but it really doesn't matter since there is no such fountain and never will be.

That...is not an answer to her question. 

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4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Mind you, she says she masks at work, and no one on this thread has said anything about people not going to work. Yet, we all are angry at people for working, supposedly?

I’m certainly not mad at people for working.  My husband goes to work.  I’m certainly glad he has a job to go to.  The increased unemployment would not cover his wages if he was laid off, I really hope to avoid that. 

I wear a mask in the drive through because that person is putting themselves at risk to give me a milkshake.  I *want* that milkshake, I am grateful there is someone there to hand it to me.  I want that person as safe as possible.  I’m angry at all the new social media stars making themselves famous arguing with minimum wage workers over mask mandates.  The number of people willing to cough on and scream at low wage workers is why I feel anger, when I do.

Im mad/sad at people in my life who have been rude and mean at me for wearing a mask.  Not quietly disagreeing, not just having a different opinion.  There are plenty of those and it’s fine.  The purposely rude, mean people are upsetting.  Using me as a way to vent the anger they have from watching crazy you tube videos is not ok.  

 


I just don’t understand why people with perfectly fine behavior so strongly identify with the people with the egregious behavior. 

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I don't understand why different views on any aspect of Covid prevention are taken to mean the poster personally feels attacked, or the poster personally refuses to take precautions.  That just isn't logical.  Obviously this thread is not about "me."  It's about various people having various emotions about various things that various others do.  Everyone has the right to an opinion on any of that IMO.

The anger expressed has been against various things from wanting schools open, to standing too close / improper [or different views on] masking, to name calling, to spreading outlandish lies, to intentionally exposing others to virus.  The push back is equally varied.  It's a discussion, not a civil court case.

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re fault lines around *how our society views and treats so-called essential workers* that COVID has revealed

24 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

I’m certainly not mad at people for working.  My husband goes to work.  I’m certainly glad he has a job to go to.  The increased unemployment would not cover his wages if he was laid off, I really hope to avoid that. 

I wear a mask in the drive through because that person is putting themselves at risk to give me a milkshake.  I *want* that milkshake, I am grateful there is someone there to hand it to me.  I want that person as safe as possible.  I’m angry at all the new social media stars making themselves famous arguing with minimum wage workers over mask mandates.  The number of people willing to cough on and scream at low wage workers is why I feel anger, when I do....

Thanks for this.

Our disregard, or callousness, for the workers whose services we deem as "essential" is the one area where I really do feel not merely smad, but actual anger.

  • Our food supply channels are so "essential" we don't merely permit meatpacking plants to remain open (I get that), but we also OK if the plants fire people who are out sick aor quarantining, and exempt them from liability around COVID transmission... yet we do not even require, let alone publicly subsidize, PPE or better ventilation or spread-out hours or facilities that would reduce (not elimiate to 0) transmission.
  • Our schools are so "essential" that we don't merely permit municipalities and school boards to re-open based on local judgment about local conditions, but we're OK with compelling teachers to do in-person classes... yet we do not require, let alone publicly subsidize, PPE or better ventilation or converting more classroom space or spread-out hours that would reduce (not elminate to 0) transmission.
  • We are not willing to take on modest inconveniences like curbside vs picking our own products in-store, or masking when we do go in-store, for the sake of the workers who have to be in there all day -- insisting instead on our *own* calculus about risk/convenience *to us.*
  • And a zillion other examples...

There's a contempt for labor -- a willingness to coerce labor into conditions that threaten people's health -- that has run through all this that I really did not know was there.

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32 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

I’m certainly not mad at people for working.  My husband goes to work.  I’m certainly glad he has a job to go to.  The increased unemployment would not cover his wages if he was laid off, I really hope to avoid that. 

I wear a mask in the drive through because that person is putting themselves at risk to give me a milkshake.  I *want* that milkshake, I am grateful there is someone there to hand it to me.  I want that person as safe as possible.  I’m angry at all the new social media stars making themselves famous arguing with minimum wage workers over mask mandates.  The number of people willing to cough on and scream at low wage workers is why I feel anger, when I do.

Im mad/sad at people in my life who have been rude and mean at me for wearing a mask.  Not quietly disagreeing, not just having a different opinion.  There are plenty of those and it’s fine.  The purposely rude, mean people are upsetting.  Using me as a way to vent the anger they have from watching crazy you tube videos is not ok.  

 


I just don’t understand why people with perfectly fine behavior so strongly identify with the people with the egregious behavior. 

I think a lot is just the desire to be contrary. If people wear masks, it's dismissed as "virtue signaling" or "security theatre" instead of simple gratitude that people are willing to do something to help other people. 

What kind of a society do we live in when any attempt to do something to help others is dismissed as "virtue signaling." It's not "virtue signaling," by the way. Almost everyone misuses that term. It's a "see how smart and above it all I am" kind of a term. 

I think some of this is a desire to excuse people we admire and love who refuse to wear masks. 

When all of the dust is settled, it would be fascinating if someone could study from an anthropological perspective. Basically, what's the deal with masks? Why is this a problem in the USA only (generalizing here)? Anyone remember the Rusty Reno drunken meltdown on Twitter about masks? Very weird. Wearing a mask is unmanly and cowardly. What a twisted idea of masculinity. 

I'm going to link to some of the strange things that have been shared by people I know:

Quote

In today's persecution,  the suggestion that wearing a mask inside God's One, Holy and Apostolic Orthodox Church which is consecrated by God as His House on Earth for us His militant Church is a denial of His protection and blasphemy of the Holy Spirit present within.

Masks in Church are Blasphemous

This is bizarre. Can you be burned by a blessed candle in church? Yes, I've actually witnessed it. Can you someone get drunk from consecrated communion wine? Yes. Can Holy Communion become moldy? Yes. 

People caught COVID at the funeral of a priest. Some of them later died. 

Serbia coronavirus: The Church losing its leaders to the pandemic

Quote

Of course, if the priest is of a holy life, he has double the grace. However, when we kiss the hand of a priest, we become communicants of uncreated Divine energies and we receive the Divine grace in the measure of our piety and faith. Saint Paisius the Athonite used to say that the serving priest during the Divine Liturgy “doesn’t have his own hands”. So, if we believe that the priest can pass a disease to us, then we deny the grace of the priesthood, and deny the Divine grace that is upon him.  

When we reject the uncreated Divine energies through our actions of doubt (wearing a mask in church) then we deny God and we create another – a false god. The same applies to the temple of God (the church). If we doubt there is Divine grace in church, then we downgrade it to a mere auditorium or community center.

Masks forbidden in Church! Orthodox Priest Explains Why

This is fundamentalism. 

Do we cover our coughs or sneezes in church? Why? Do we go to church when we know that we're sick? Why not? 

I could rant on and on about the heresies at the heart of these ideas. 

At our old crazy church before the pandemic, we began uses disposable plastic cups for the post communion wine and and we would wear plastic gloves. Didn't that indicate that we thought it was possible that we could pass a virus IN CHURCH to each other? Are plastic gloves a sign of fear? I'll bet money they don't do that anymore. No one objected to those precautions in 2019 because it wasn't COVID. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re fault lines around *how our society views and treats so-called essential workers* that COVID has revealed

Thanks for this.

Our disregard, or callousness, for the workers whose services we deem as "essential" is the one area where I really do feel not merely smad, but actual anger.

  • Our food supply channels are so "essential" we don't merely permit meatpacking plants to remain open (I get that), but we also OK if the plants fire people who are out sick aor quarantining, and exempt them from liability around COVID transmission... yet we do not even require, let alone publicly subsidize, PPE or better ventilation or spread-out hours or facilities that would reduce (not elimiate to 0) transmission.
  • Our schools are so "essential" that we don't merely permit municipalities and school boards to re-open based on local judgment about local conditions, but we're OK with compelling teachers to do in-person classes... yet we do not require, let alone publicly subsidize, PPE or better ventilation or converting more classroom space or spread-out hours that would reduce (not elminate to 0) transmission.
  • We are not willing to take on modest inconveniences like curbside vs picking our own products in-store, or masking when we do go in-store, for the sake of the workers who have to be in there all day -- insisting instead on our *own* calculus about risk/convenience *to us.*
  • And a zillion other examples...

There's a contempt for labor -- a willingness to coerce labor into conditions that threaten people's health -- that has run through all this that I really did not know was there.

Yes. I work in healthcare (not direct care) and all of my siblings are front line healthcare workers so I've witnessed the toll that this has taken on our HCWs. The exodus from the nursing profession has already begun. All of us will suffer from the loss of experienced HCWs. 

RE the meatpacking plants, it's even worse when we consider how many of those workers are undocumented. I'm not a vegetarian but we've stopped buying meat often because the meatpacking companies are absolutely terrible. They are some of the worst employers in the country. 

 

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re effect of workers with choices in health care and teaching professions

8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yes. I work in healthcare (not direct care) and all of my siblings are front line healthcare workers so I've witnessed the toll that this has taken on our HCWs. The exodus from the nursing profession has already begun. All of us will suffer from the loss of experienced HCWs...

The toll on HCW for the direct impact of COVID (extremely long hours, extremely high at-work stress, extreme risk particularly in the early inadequate PPE days of transmission to their own families) has been unimaginable... yet HCW have also borne the brunt of the early IT"S A HOAX/ THE NURSES ARE SELLING PPE AND POCKETING THE PROCEEDS/ THE HOSPITALS ARE INFLATING CASE NUMBERS BECAUSE REASONS/ conspiracy nonsense of the early days, and now are bearing the brunt of anti-vax Gates Chip Implant conspiracy nonsense even as they're still struggling with still-high cases with new variant problems.

Similarly the toll on teachers, who've struggled for over a year to serve kids with wholly new technology, massively complicated and unpredictable scheduling, and similar stresses about bringing COVID home to other family members... without meaningful public support for funding PPE or better ventilation, let alone for more classrooms/teachers/double shift schedules that would actually reduce the amount of exhaled air circulating around them.

Folks retired; others who once served as substitutes and tutors withdrew; others with options availed of options. 

 

re effect on workers without choices, due either to poverty or documentation status

8 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

..RE the meatpacking plants, it's even worse when we consider how many of those workers are undocumented. I'm not a vegetarian but we've stopped buying meat often because the meatpacking companies are absolutely terrible. They are some of the worst employers in the country.

Perhaps, but it's hardly limited to meatpacking plants.

COVID has revealed an enthusiasm for employees who don't have rights that lies in considerable tension with the simultaneous handwringing around immigration policy.

 

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I am so glad I’ve found this. I’m a Christian (born again, saved believer). I have been struggling with anger forward my fellow believers and some family members who don’t mask. There was a conference this past weekend at my church. There were some unkind things said to me (mask wise) even after I shard from my heart about how alone I feel at home since hubby and daughter aren’t following the Lord and how I feel alone at church because I’m one of a couple people who mask. Let’s just say that the person I talked with did not have the gifts of encouragement or discernment! 😆🙄. I won’t be going back to church until this is over. Although I’m in my 50’s and have been a believer for 36 or so years I am very sensitive. I can’t handle it anymore. I’m really praying that the Lord would keep my heart soft toward all the Christians who have been so blinded. It’s hard so hard.... 😭😩....everysingle friend I have ever had is like that. I am thankful that so many verses come to mind when I get really mad. It (He) keeps me in check. So very thankful for the encouragement I’ve found here 😊

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35 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

 

The toll on HCW for the direct impact of COVID (extremely long hours, extremely high at-work stress, extreme risk particularly in the early inadequate PPE days of transmission to their own families) has been unimaginable... yet HCW have also borne the brunt of the early IT"S A HOAX/ THE NURSES ARE SELLING PPE AND POCKETING THE PROCEEDS/ THE HOSPITALS ARE INFLATING CASE NUMBERS BECAUSE REASONS/ conspiracy nonsense of the early days, and now are bearing the brunt of anti-vax Gates Chip Implant conspiracy nonsense even as they're still struggling with still-high cases with new variant problems.

 

 

I think the bolded is what's actually been the hardest.  Long hours, high stress, infection risk - we were conditioned to accept that as part of the job (I'm not suggesting that it's been easy, because it hasn't, or that the impact should be minimized).  The ongoing refusal of a significant proportion of our population to do their bit, even simple things like wearing a mask, really feels like disrespect. That has taken a real toll.

Relatedly, there has also been a certain amount of compassion fatigue.  Out-of-towners who've traveled from lock-down or hotspot areas for vacations and then present to vacationland hospital for ski/bike etc injuries aren't getting a whole lot of compassion from burnt-out staff.  They, of course, get professional and polite care.  But staff are quietly resentful.

 

 

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I know several very religious and conservative HCWs who have been shocked by the response of "their side" to the pandemic. They have either left their churches or are very close to leaving. 

It's not just the discouragement of witnessing the general public pretending like there was not a pandemic. Some healthcare providers have acted badly. They've threatened their staff for raising concerns about inadequate PPE. Doctors and nurses have actually been fired for posting on social media about inadequate PPE. 

 

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The daughter of an acquaintance is a teacher. She's refusing to be vaccinated because she's afraid of infertility. That's been widely debunked but I don't think she even knows this. There's so much bad information out in certain circles. 

My acquaintance's husband bought a generator after the election because he read that the government was going to turn off the power. That was a QAnon thing. 

That shows how widespread bad information. People who believe they are mainstream are actually exposed to conspiracy theories and debunked anti-vax propaganda. 

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Real world example - I heard that an acquaintance just tested positive for COVID. This person was around several other people indoors late last week. No masks. I don't think they were trying to be anti-mask but rather it didn't seem necessary since they all know each other. 

The other people who were with her last week have decided that they aren't going to be tested or quarantine unless they have symptoms. They are wishy-washy about vaccination, not anti or pro. 

They aren't intentionally careless. I think their reaction is probably the way most people would react to this. 

I know that more than likely everyone will be fine. The person who tested positive isn't very sick. 

This is good example of why we need to be vaccinated. You cannot rely on other people to be careful. 

The person who was exposed has no idea where she was exposed. I've heard this story over and over in the last year. They test positive and say they don't know how they were exposed but then admit to all attending all kinds of small gatherings like church, dinner group, or a birthday party. I'm not suggesting that this is how everyone is exposed but this is definitely the way many people are exposed. 

This makes me 'smad.' The careless isn't intentional or malicious but it's been enabled by bad information, government indifference, and lies. We could have done so much better than this but we didn't. 

 

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On 3/28/2021 at 8:11 AM, ktgrok said:

Or even covering one's nose when they sneeze - pretty sure we don't have studies on all the ways to do this and how effective each person's technique is, etc etc but we all pretty much think you should cover your mouth/nose when sneezing or coughing. And not wipe boogers on other people - again, no studies on wiping boogers on people, but it makes sense. 

Kind off topic.  My pastor posted awhile back that he had to sneeze in a store one day and he didn't know what to do?  Should be leave his mask on? Take it off and sneeze into his elbow?  Most people who posted said take the mask off!!   I said leave mask on, plus cover with elbow,  go somewhere alone/outside take mask off, wash or sanitize hands, put on new mask.  Apparently no one else carries a backup mask.  

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13 minutes ago, rebcoola said:

Kind off topic.  My pastor posted awhile back that he had to sneeze in a store one day and he didn't know what to do?  Should be leave his mask on? Take it off and sneeze into his elbow?  Most people who posted said take the mask off!!   I said leave mask on, plus cover with elbow,  go somewhere alone/outside take mask off, wash or sanitize hands, put on new mask.  Apparently no one else carries a backup mask.  

oh wow. Um, yeah....one of the best parts of masking is no escaping sneezes or coughs! Taking it off when being MOST likely to spread virus is um...missing the point! No wonder this virus is spreading so much if people are taking OFF the mask to sneeze and cough!

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2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

oh wow. Um, yeah....one of the best parts of masking is no escaping sneezes or coughs! Taking it off when being MOST likely to spread virus is um...missing the point! No wonder this virus is spreading so much if people are taking OFF the mask to sneeze and cough!

Yep they were all more worried about wearing a yucky feeling mask for a few minutes.  I was just gobsmacked

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Just now, rebcoola said:

Yep they were all more worried about wearing a yucky feeling mask for a few minutes.  I was just gobsmacked

I sneezed while wearing my mask today and put my hand up to keep my mask on while I did it, sort of  by instinct.  I couldn't feel anything at all on my hands, and my first thought was "These masks work really well!" 

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23 hours ago, Turtlemom said:

I am so glad I’ve found this. I’m a Christian (born again, saved believer). I have been struggling with anger forward my fellow believers and some family members who don’t mask. There was a conference this past weekend at my church. There were some unkind things said to me (mask wise) even after I shard from my heart about how alone I feel at home since hubby and daughter aren’t following the Lord and how I feel alone at church because I’m one of a couple people who mask. Let’s just say that the person I talked with did not have the gifts of encouragement or discernment! 😆🙄. I won’t be going back to church until this is over. Although I’m in my 50’s and have been a believer for 36 or so years I am very sensitive. I can’t handle it anymore. I’m really praying that the Lord would keep my heart soft toward all the Christians who have been so blinded. It’s hard so hard.... 😭😩....everysingle friend I have ever had is like that. I am thankful that so many verses come to mind when I get really mad. It (He) keeps me in check. So very thankful for the encouragement I’ve found here 😊

Welcome!! It's hard to feel lonely. I'm glad you found the forums. If you stick around, you will see that people here don't always agree, but there are so many threads to explore, on such a variety of topics, posted by such a large number of people, that you can find a community here.

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On 3/29/2021 at 2:31 PM, wathe said:

I think the bolded is what's actually been the hardest.  Long hours, high stress, infection risk - we were conditioned to accept that as part of the job (I'm not suggesting that it's been easy, because it hasn't, or that the impact should be minimized).  The ongoing refusal of a significant proportion of our population to do their bit, even simple things like wearing a mask, really feels like disrespect. That has taken a real toll.

Relatedly, there has also been a certain amount of compassion fatigue.  Out-of-towners who've traveled from lock-down or hotspot areas for vacations and then present to vacationland hospital for ski/bike etc injuries aren't getting a whole lot of compassion from burnt-out staff.  They, of course, get professional and polite care.  But staff are quietly resentful.

 

 

You have been working so hard and it really doesn’t help to see some of the callous, uncaring attitudes some people have. I think this will take some time to recover from.

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2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

I have re-read this statement a few times in the last few days to figure out what I was thinking on it.

 

I think there are a lot of people who aren't saying that *MASKS* don't work.  I think what those people are generally, actually saying is that *MASK MADATES* don't have efficacy levels that are substantial enough to warrant blanket mask mandates.

 

Mask mandates are as much (or more) about human behavior as they are about the tech being used.  And if human behavior is negating X amount of the efficacy of the tech.....that calls into question the effectiveness of mandated use of the tech. 

 

We can't just test the technology in lab conditions and expect that humans will function under lab conditions.  Even the most well meaning of people simply aren't that perfect.  Mistakes will be made, misunderstandings will happen, and tech will be manufactured imperfectly.  That's the fallibility of the real world.  And that's only if we pretend that @$$holes don't exist.   Efficacy that accounts for human behavior matters when we (society) are trying to mandate the things people DO.

I'm re-reading *this* a few times to figure out what I'm thinking on it.

We mandate that drivers stop at stop signs.

Compliance isn't perfect, because human behavior. People simply are not perfect; mistakes will happen. That's the fallibility of the real world... even before taking the existence of @$$holes into account.

Do you see a distinction (logically or morally) between mandating stopping at stop signs even though compliance is less than perfect, and even though stop signs do not perfectly reduce accidents at street junctions all the way to 0... vs mandating masks even though similar dynamics are at play?

 

(To my mind, in both cases: better is better. We need not wait until we can arrive all the way at "perfection" before we work toward "better."  But I'm wondering if you see a difference between the one case, vs the other.)

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35 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Blanket stop signs at all intersections aren't a thing.  

No, but pretty much intersections in America have some guidance about what you're supposed to do there. Which, by the way, is not the case in all countries... we have a highly organized country. When I was in Ukraine last, the highway didn't have much in the way of lane markings, so I'm pretty sure it wound up fitting 3 lanes of cars when it was supposed to have 2 😛 . 

This is all to say that we accept the restrictions we're used to and rebel against the ones we aren't for no reason other than familiarity. Speaking of restrictions, people looked at me like I had grown a second head when I asked where the seatbelts in the cars were. Putting on seatbelts just isn't done in Ukraine. 

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3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Interestingly, I recall being a passenger in European countries and being terrified due to the lack of lane markings and participation of such lol.    Lane markings, signage etc....it's as good as the participation of the public in such regulations, and no better.  

Definitely. But it's definitely the case that people in places without lane markings never learn to use lane markings. You need to add the markings before people start changing behavior. 

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To me, it's a little similar to the Ten Commandments.  I mean, it would have been nice if humans just did the right thing ~ acting in ways that were wise, unselfish, and compassionate toward their fellow humans.   But people being people, the actual Commandments became necessary.

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re timing of tweaking / studying / adjusting / improving policy parameters

54 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's true that we mandate stopping at stop signs.

It's also true that stop signs have been studied at length.  Red colors and octagonal shapes didn't occur by accident.  The current manifestation of stop signs is a result of many years of testing on effectiveness of the "messaging" for lack of a better word.  We haven't had the luxury of studying covid at the same level because...........time.

Aside from all that however....

Not all intersections have stop signs.  Some have stop lights.  But some have only flashing yellow lights.  And some, they might have signs in some directions but not others.  

The reason is that different intersections require different interventions based on all sorts of factors like location and risk and so on and so forth.  Blanket stop signs at all intersections aren't a thing.  

Sure.  Good policies are responsive to different conditions.  We've got good evidence that masking is more important inside than outside, for instance.

Even with a policy problem that has ramped up as gradually as traffic patterns in intersections, though, from the time of horses and buggies on dirt roads to superhighway junctions today... traffic intersection policy has evolved with (imperfect, ever-adjusting) policy mandates *in place,*  A road starts bearing more traffic, authorities adjust, swap the sign out for a light, create new turn lanes, build a cloverleaf ramp, whatever. 

I don't know how the sequencing would work, even for relatively less urgent issues like traffic pileups or accidents at intersections, if we demanded *perfect* testing and information prior to implementing *any* measures.  I actually don't even know what *perfect* information would look like, for trafffic measures any more than masks.

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4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

I actually don't even know what *perfect* information would look like, for trafffic measures any more than masks.

And there's decent evidence we DON'T have optimal road signs. For instance, there's good evidence rotaries are much more efficient than stoplights and stop signs, if I remember correctly.  

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3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

...I think there are a lot of people who aren't saying that *MASKS* don't work.  I think what those people are generally, actually saying is that *MASK MADATES* don't have efficacy levels that are substantial enough to warrant blanket mask mandates.

Mask mandates are as much (or more) about human behavior as they are about the tech being used.  And if human behavior is negating X amount of the efficacy of the tech.....that calls into question the effectiveness of mandated use of the tech. ...

So, anecdotes are not data, but just to bring in a thought on this.

My parents have been pretty vehemently in the hoax crowd. In the "you're living in fear" crowd. The no vaccine crowd (not for actual medical reasons, not once it's been proven after 5 years, purely anti-vax). The literal words from my mom's mouth have been, "If it's your time, it's your time." So, not ones to really jump on the mask wagon.

But, they are also rule followers, as many people are. And so while they grudgingly followed only the letter of the law, they did follow it. They would only put their masks on right before entering the store -- no mask on during the parking lot walk for them! -- but it was on during indoors.

There are a lot of people who are rule followers, for various reasons. Some people don't want to make a scene. Some people don't want to have to interact with a manager if it comes to it. Some people don't have the energy to argue. Some people are just respectful of authority.

I think a lot of the people more inclined to the anti-mask persuasion are also more predisposed to the respect-authority mindset. No data on this, which I know negates this to some, but it seems reasonable based on my experiences both with my parents and also the area I live. Like, where I live it is definitely a dyed-in-the-wool red area. I was behind two men in line at Safeway laughing about sheep and guns and vaccines and some very eye-widening political rhetoric, which was a very uncomfortable experience for me ...but they were wearing masks during the conversation! And they stayed the 6' distance from each other! And they certainly thought it was ridiculous, but they did it, because it was a rule they were expected to follow in order to be a part of the society, which they decided was more important to them.

So anyway, maybe the definition of  successful "efficacy levels" is open to interpretation, where you want 75% of people to follow and anything under 60% is a fail, but if it encourages 20 or 40 or 50% of people who would otherwise not mask to actually do it... I think that's working enough to me. I mean, no law that we have inspires 100% following, so I don't see why a mask mandate that has a direct impact on public health during a pandemic should be held to a high-efficacy standard when really any efficacy is a win.

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Just now, happysmileylady said:

I only want better than we have.  And by better, I don't mean more strict, I mean better targeted and more reasonable.  

But the more targeted a law, the more complicated it becomes, too. It makes sense that laws would start out simpler. 

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2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

I'm re-reading *this* a few times to figure out what I'm thinking on it.

We mandate that drivers stop at stop signs.

Compliance isn't perfect, because human behavior. People simply are not perfect; mistakes will happen. That's the fallibility of the real world... even before taking the existence of @$$holes into account.

Do you see a distinction (logically or morally) between mandating stopping at stop signs even though compliance is less than perfect, and even though stop signs do not perfectly reduce accidents at street junctions all the way to 0... vs mandating masks even though similar dynamics are at play?

 

(To my mind, in both cases: better is better. We need not wait until we can arrive all the way at "perfection" before we work toward "better."  But I'm wondering if you see a difference between the one case, vs the other.)

Death by Stop Sign | Psychology Today

This is an interesting theory:

What is the reason for the enormous disparity between U.S. traffic deaths and deaths in, say, Britain? The answer is that U.S. signs, signals, and road design ignore psychology. Traffic signs in the U.S. always control rather than inform. They tell you what you must do, rather than giving the information you need to make intelligent decisions.

 

 

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1 hour ago, J-rap said:

To me, it's a little similar to the Ten Commandments.  I mean, it would have been nice if humans just did the right thing ~ acting in ways that were wise, unselfish, and compassionate toward their fellow humans.   But people being people, the actual Commandments became necessary.

To me, though, the Ten Commandments are different.  GOD gave the commandments to guide humans (who were not always wise, unselfish, and compassionate).  Mandates are made by humans (who are not always wise, unselfish, and compassionate) to control other humans because those humans many not always be wise, unselfish, and compassionate.  I see no logical reason to believe that those who make the mandates are more wise, less selfish, and more compassionate on average than the people who are deemed not to be wise enough, unselfish enough, or compassionate enough to make good decisions on their own. 

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And I think to some extent, mask mandates happened because certain people felt like they had to show they were "doing something."

I believe the use of masks would be more effective overall if, instead of making a mandate, the people in charge worked harder at explaining the factual logic behind mask use and its interaction with social distancing etc.  (At least in the USA, where we are not used to being ordered to follow arbitrary rules that haven't even gone through legislative debate.)  Yes, there would still be people who would not use them, just like there are people who don't use seatbelts.  But those who had any sense at all would apply it to try to make good decisions.  And I personally believe most humans in every country are not complete a$$holes.

I think I read that in the US where we effectively have vaccine mandates (pre-Covid), our vax rates are lower than those in other developed countries that don't use mandates but rather education / physician advice.  This should be a clue that mandates don't encourage the kind of thinking that promotes health.

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43 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Death by Stop Sign | Psychology Today

This is an interesting theory:

What is the reason for the enormous disparity between U.S. traffic deaths and deaths in, say, Britain? The answer is that U.S. signs, signals, and road design ignore psychology. Traffic signs in the U.S. always control rather than inform. They tell you what you must do, rather than giving the information you need to make intelligent decisions.

 

 

It would be more interesting if he actually offered some evidence that it was directly related to signage rather than the number of high speed/windy/long distance roads, the local wildlife, the type of vehicles, cultural tendencies when driving etc etc.  

If we’re requiring decent studies on masks we should at least be consistent.

Also as a side thing, i note that he says there are 23,000 unnecessary traffic deaths per year.  It’s worth nothing that there have been 1/2 million COVID DEATHS.  
 

Even in Australia where Covid was quite minimal and we took massive mitigation measures we had nearly as many Covid as road deaths last year.

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5 minutes ago, SKL said:

I think I read that in the US where we effectively have vaccine mandates (pre-Covid), our vax rates are lower than those in other developed countries that don't use mandates but rather education / physician advice.  This should be a clue that mandates don't encourage the kind of thinking that promotes health.

France and Italy require 10-11 vaccines for school attendance, just like the US, and Germany requires the measles vaccine. The vaccination rate against measles in the US, where it is required for school attendance is 92%, compared to Switzerland (76%) and the UK (87%), where vaccines are not mandatory. Scandinavian countries do have high vaccination rates without mandates, but they are also significantly more community-minded in general compared to the everyone-for-himself ethos that pervades much of the US.

The idea that more Americans would vaccinate if vaccines were not mandatory wouldn't even have made sense a few years ago, as vaccination rates continued to fall despite the fact that many states allowed parents to evade mandates via "philosophical exemptions." And it makes even less sense now that we know what a frighteningly large percentage of the US population is unable to distinguish between actual science and easily refuted propaganda they see on social media.

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29 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

It would be more interesting if he actually offered some evidence that it was directly related to signage rather than the number of high speed/windy/long distance roads, the local wildlife, the type of vehicles, cultural tendencies when driving etc etc.  

If we’re requiring decent studies on masks we should at least be consistent.

Also as a side thing, i note that he says there are 23,000 unnecessary traffic deaths per year.  It’s worth nothing that there have been 1/2 million COVID DEATHS.  
 

Even in Australia where Covid was quite minimal and we took massive mitigation measures we had nearly as many Covid as road deaths last year.

I would in no way suggest that we should do away with stop signs because of this one article--it is an interesting theory.  

But the decent study should be that stop signs do a significant amount of good relative to the costs that they impose (time, pollution, causing other types of accidents, etc.) before we mandate that people stop.  

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2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I would in no way suggest that we should do away with stop signs because of this one article--it is an interesting theory.  

But the decent study should be that stop signs do a significant amount of good relative to the costs that they impose (time, pollution, causing other types of accidents, etc.) before we mandate that people stop.  

Stop signs and speed limits are revenue generators in some locations, LOL.

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19 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I would in no way suggest that we should do away with stop signs because of this one article--it is an interesting theory.  

But the decent study should be that stop signs do a significant amount of good relative to the costs that they impose (time, pollution, causing other types of accidents, etc.) before we mandate that people stop.  

I mean for one thing we have stop signs in Australia, plenty of them.  I just think he’s put forward a theory with literally zero evidence to support it.  I’m going to step away because this thread is making me angry.  Which is not helpful here at all.

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22 hours ago, kand said:

I have seen so, so much of this kind of information. There are mountains of resources at this point showing why and how masks work. I don’t actually know how those trying to get the message out could get it out any more than they have. At the very beginning, messaging was not effective, but once the initial chaos settled and the science started coming in, I saw tons of good explainers, ads, articles and other things educating about masks. 

I think that kind of information is just totally irrelevant to anti-maskers at this point. These are mostly the same people who were posting all over social media last year that covid was less dangerous than the flu, that HCQ could cure it, that only 5000 people would die, that estimates of 200K dead were nothing but politically motivated fear-mongering, etc. 

And after they turned out to be dead wrong about all those things, they were reposting the Great Barrington Declaration and articles claiming that Sweden had already reached herd immunity and the US was only 10% away so we should reopen everything immediately, that hospitals were hugely inflating death numbers to make more money, that Covid would "disappear the day after the election," etc.

And then they were proven dead wrong about those things, too, as the US (and Sweden, and many other countries) experienced a third wave that dwarfed the first two, US deaths hit half a million, RCTs on HCQ and ivermectin found no benefit, etc. So what do they have left to save face and keep from admitting that they were dead wrong about absolutely everything for the last 12 months?

Well they can keep mocking the "sheeple" for wearing masks, and they can keep pretending they're smarter and better informed (and even, bizarrely enough, more faithful) because they won't wear a small strip of cloth on their face that might keep them from getting, and spreading, a deadly disease. 

The idea that these people would be wearing masks if experts had just explained it better, is a joke. 

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

...

I believe the use of masks would be more effective overall if, instead of making a mandate, the people in charge worked harder at explaining the factual logic behind mask use and its interaction with social distancing etc.  (At least in the USA, where we are not used to being ordered to follow arbitrary rules that haven't even gone through legislative debate.)  Yes, there would still be people who would not use them, just like there are people who don't use seatbelts.  But those who had any sense at all would apply it to try to make good decisions.  And I personally believe most humans in every country are not complete a$$holes. ...

1 hour ago, kand said:

I have seen so, so much of this kind of information. There are mountains of resources at this point showing why and how masks work. I don’t actually know how those trying to get the message out could get it out any more than they have. At the very beginning, messaging was not effective, but once the initial chaos settled and the science started coming in, I saw tons of good explainers, ads, articles and other things educating about masks. 

And, this was NOT an either-or dichotomy: EITHER educate OR mandate. 

I mean, it's not like once a mandate is ordered, all of the information disappears. It's not like having a mandate means that people can't find this information, or that the people in charge stopped "working to explain the factual logic behind mask use and its interaction with social distancing etc." They still did this. And the information grew. It was everywhere. It IS everywhere. But we're still seeing arguments of "not enough" or "not the right information" or "fake" to the point where I don't know where the bar is. Thank goodness Newton isn't trying to get gravity accepted these days, he'd need a lot more than apples and math.

But back to the point, about mask mandates:

Okay, so we have all of this information available. Therefore, the sensical non-assholes will have, of their own volition, started using masks. We agree on that. These are Group A: people who have sense and aren't assholes, and who do not need a mask mandate.

Leaving us with Group B: people who for whatever reason will not mask based on the factual logic. So, Group A shouldn't be shrunk by a mandate, because they are by definition sensical non-assholes, while Group B may be now divided into Group B1 who now mask because of mandate and Group B2 who won't mask anyway.

So long as there are people in Group B1, isn't this a gain? The mandate will be more effective than just education alone. Unless everyone is a sensical non-asshole, or the overwhelming majority are at least, then the mandate will still serve a useful purpose. 

But, if you are saying that the mandate makes Group A people LESS likely to use a mask, despite all of this information available to them, then I'm not sure I agree they are sensical non-assholes. Because cutting off one's nose to spite one's face is really non-sensical, and trying to cut off other peoples' noses is asshole-ish. So I don't see why we think NOT having a mandate would have BETTER masking outcomes. This math is beyond my education.

eta: on the idea that in the USA we aren't used to following rules that didn't go through legislative debate, or that this "not used to" has effected our mask thing. We see these huge bills get passed where people aren't reading them, or even if the politician read it, the average Joe on the street didn't and doesn't even know it's happening. C-SPAN is not our most popular channel. Building codes about stair depth, electric wire rules, we assume are there for good reason even if we personally don't understand it. We expect ourselves and others to follow the sometimes-seemingly "arbitrary rules" in our society and give a lot of assumption that the rules were made for societal benefit, and do not ask for proof of debate, or need the rules re-debated every 40 years *just because* our generation didn't get to listen to the debates the first time. 

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8 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Mask mandates take the pressure off of individual businesses to keep their work place safe. Most businesses here in my state were vocally for the mask mandate. 

Definitely this!   Everyone I know that works in a public facing position is very glad for the mask mandates.  It's so much easier to tell someone they can't come in without a mask when you have the mandate to back it up.   

My brother works for Disney in a retail location that is in a non-Disney hotel.   Disney has a mask mandate, Florida for the most part doesn't.   He is constantly having to tell people they need to leave without a mask, which is to be somewhat expected even though there are signs everywhere.  But he has a ton of people argue with him about it.  

My daughter works for a retail store in a mall in NJ, where we've had a mask mandate almost since the beginning.    She has the occasional person she has to tell to put on/fix their mask, but nobody argues with her.  She has a state mandate to back her up.  

8 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And there's decent evidence we DON'T have optimal road signs. For instance, there's good evidence rotaries are much more efficient than stoplights and stop signs, if I remember correctly.  

All the rotaries/circles we had around here were switched to lights and stop signs (triangles essentially).  They may be more efficient but at least around here, they weren't safer (because...people). 

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10 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

All the rotaries/circles we had around here were switched to lights and stop signs (triangles essentially).  They may be more efficient but at least around here, they weren't safer (because...people). 

Oh, weird. Were there a lot?

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