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1 hour ago, Garga said:

I guess it’s just one page. 

It’s like any FB page. Someone posts something and people comment.

I find it is a horrible format for conversation.  If you know how FB works, there will be comments, and then if someone comments on a comment, then it tabs in, like an outline. But you never know when someone will have commented on someone’s comment unless you click on all the comments every single time you read the post, and then you have to scroll through to try to figure out what you might have missed.  And things get pushed down the FB home page and disappear so you can’t find them again anyway. 

FB is not the place for lengthy responses to the sorts of topics that come up here.  

I’m part of the FB group, but I never even bother reading the posts anymore. It’s just pointless. You can’t have a real discussion.

I agree. I’ll post a quick inquiry on occasion, but the depth & quality of discussions here far exceed those of any FB Group. 

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Just now, Lori D. said:

I doubt it would count here, if someone else, often a university student, can offer tutoring of high school math for $15-25/hour. 😉 

Ah, yes, it's that American attitude about math that makes sure most of the IMO team is composed of immigrants 😛 . There is, in fact, a difference between people who are experts in something and college students. It's fine if people don't want to pay, but it's also not offensive to charge above what a college student would. 

 

Just now, Lori D. said:

As the saying goes, you just "can't squeeze blood out of a turnip" -- if homeschoolers are barely making it on that single income (driving one car, no frills living), they just can't pay $50+/hour -- even $15-$25/hour is going to be extremely difficult for them to swing more than once or twice a month... 😢

Yeah, I understand if people can't afford it, obviously. But if people get offended at my rates, then I'm going to stop offering, because I don't feel like causing bad feelings, and the market rate for my work is nowhere near that amount. 

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20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, yes, it's that American attitude about math that makes sure most of the IMO team is composed of immigrants 😛 . There is, in fact, a difference between people who are experts in something and college students. It's fine if people don't want to pay, but it's also not offensive to charge above what a college student would...

Well, I disagree with you here. It's not about immigrants, and it's not about just math -- it's also about writing. I get a pittance for what I pour into teaching writing. But it's also about science and the humanities and the arts. Education in ALL areas is NOT valued in this country by a large segment of the population -- just look at the average salaries of teachers.
 

20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

... Yeah, I understand if people can't afford it, obviously. But if people get offended at my rates, then I'm going to stop offering, because I don't feel like causing bad feelings, and the market rate for my work is nowhere near that amount. 

I doubt anyone in my area would by *offended* by your rates. (Not what I was suggesting.) They just couldn't *afford* your rates, and would look for other options that they could afford. It would not be anything personal against you.

I don't doubt you are worth the higher rate of pay. I know that I am worth the higher rate of pay. I just don't know any homeschoolers locally who can afford to pay what you, or I, are worth. 🤷‍♀️ I am fortunate that I can afford to work for a pittance and consider my teaching as a gift and blessing that I can give to other -- I think of it as volunteer work. I know that is not the case for everyone who teachers/tutors, and I am sad that teachers and tutors are not valued in the way sports stars and celebrities are... That's what this country seems to value, if $$$ count as votes.

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1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

Well, I disagree with you here. It's not about immigrants, and it's not about just math -- it's also about writing. I get a pittance for what I pour into teaching writing. But it's also about science and the humanities and the arts. Education in ALL areas is NOT valued in this country by a large segment of the population -- just look at the average salaries of teachers.

No, you're absolutely right. It's a general attitude towards education. And I wish it wasn't so. 

 

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

I doubt anyone in my area would by *offended* by your rates. (Not what I was suggesting.) They just couldn't *afford* your rates, and would look for other options that they could afford. It would not be anything personal against you.

Oh, I know you weren't!! Just that people around here WERE actually offended, which was the part of the interaction that bothered me. Like, someone whose kid was taking my class asked, and I told her my rates, and then she was super huffy for a good long while. And that kind of soured me on even telling people I can tutor their kids, because who wants that? I was already taking a massive pay cut by running the classes...

 

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

I don't doubt you are worth the higher rate of pay. I know that I am worth the higher rate of pay. I just don't know any homeschoolers locally who can afford to pay what you, or I, are worth. 🤷‍♀️ I am fortunate that I can afford to work for a pittance and consider my teaching as a gift and blessing, and think of it as volunteer work. I know that is not the case for everyone who teachers/tutors, and I am sad that teachers and tutors are not valued in the way sports stars and celebrities are... 

There are definitely homeschoolers here who can afford it (it's NYC, after all), but I'm sure that some people can't, and that doesn't offend me in the least 🙂 . 

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1 hour ago, SusanC said:

That said, if you tell me your rate and i can't afford it, it wouldn't occur to me to take offense. That is weird.

Right? I’m often disappointed by our inability to swing particular classes, camps, or extracurriculars - but that isn’t the fault of those offering the services! More power to them! 

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Sounds like photography. People expect hour long family sessions for $50. They have no idea of the level of skill and costs of equipment and time involved in processing the pictures. When photographers charge $400-500 for senior portraits, they’re not doing it to be mean or to offend. That’s just the actual value of a quality product. 

Of course, there’s always someone’s cousin who’s willing to do it for $50, but you get what you pay for.

Sounds like it’s the same for tutoring.

And of course area counts, too. I had a friend who was starting out in photography and tried to charge $8000 for wedding photos. He’d been reading about rates in very high COL areas.  That price won’t fly around here!  Around here it’s half that or less. Of course, he got no customers who could afford that in this area.

 

Sorry...rattling on about photography. It’s my hobby. And it’s expensive!

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3 hours ago, Terabith said:

The one that really bothered me when my kids were like five and seven was:  "In 1789, the French Revolution began when citizens stormed the Bastille and fought for the Declaration of the Rights of Man.  Later, during the Reign of Terror, the aristocrats' heads were removed by the guillotine."  

I hate it when my guillotines do that.  

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I should mention also that for every hour I'm meeting with a student, I'm on average spending an hour preparing for that meeting.  DH tells me I should charge for the hour of prep, but I don't think that's really done with tutoring.  Not only do my families take me seriously when I charge more, but I take them more seriously.  I want them to get their money's worth, so I show up totally prepared and ready to go, and I try to give each student more than an hour so everyone feels like it's a good deal.  

If my parents are offended by high prices, I don't see it;  I just don't hear back from them.  It makes no difference to me.  I set my prices at a point where I am indifferent between having the money or having the time.

Also, the first time I ever heard of CC was on the WTM forum, and the thread title included the word "cult" so I figure I dodged that bullet.  I don't know anyone who uses it.  (Waldorf is a bigger deal where I am.)  It's good to know that if I ever fall on hard times, starting an MLM is more lucrative than tutoring.    

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I really enjoy teaching and have joked that, for live classes, they are paying me to grade because I'd do the lecture/interactive part for free. For the past 8 or so years I've volunteered at different afterschool programs and help coach Science Olympiad, so it's really true that I'd do it for free. ☺   This year I realized that what I really want is to charge double if I have to deal with a cheating problem.  In my idealized world, my classes would cost X.  If the class is fun, meaning that they don't sit like rocks but also aren't disruptive, I'd give a small refund because I genuinely find classes with a lot of back and forth to be a pleasant way to pass an hour or 2.  If I catch your child cheating, you'd pay double because tracking it down, emailing the files to the parents, and then having to read everything else that they turn in with extra attention adds time to the grading, which is already the unpleasant part of the job. 

Edited to add...historically this has been a small issue.  This year was insane, with multiple students typing quiz/test questions into google and giving completely nonsensical answers.  The most dramatic example was when I asked them to identify a molecule (they had been asked to learn to recognize the 4 main types of macromolecules because we would soon be discussing how the structure of lipids related to cell membranes and how DNA replication worked).  So, the answer to 'What is this molecule and what does it do?' should have been something like 'carbohydrate, energy for cell' or 'nucleic acid, DNA/genetic information'.  From multiple students, I got a very long chemical name and then a sentence about how an insecticide functioned...and that was the day that we all learned that google is great at matching words, but not at all good at matching the drawing of a chemical. I kept thinking 'I love teaching, but I do not want to be spending the majority of my 'teaching time' dealing with this nonsense.'  

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18 hours ago, Farrar said:

seven years ago, this would have been a massive nasty fun argument.

Well I'll just be a little provocative and say I met I think it was Boortins several years ago at a homeschool convention. That would be a lot of several years ago, like maybe 15+. She was SUCH a nasty piece of a work, I immediately concluded I wanted nothing to do with CC. 

So I'm disappointed to hear a man is in charge of the company and running people into the ground for money, but nothing is really surprising if the character of the people at the top is in question.

Not like I'm alleging anything, just saying I wouldn't want her near my kids teaching them. Her values were clearly not mine.

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I was a director, once upon a time, for CC.  

Separate from their corporate structure, I found their Challenge A and Challenge B programs to be one of the better middle school community based homeschool programs.  It was certainly more developmentally appropriate and engaging than our local classical school.  And, it filled a need for us as a family with an only child.  

I stepped away from directing for several reasons.  But the article points to issues that continue to resonate.  Why CC isnt stepping into these (which are not new) and figuring out a way to better support directors is an issue. 

While directing, which is an immense undertaking in Challenge years, I had the the unfortunate impression that CC takes great care to cover their own behinds by communicating where tax responsibility lies (with each director).  Technically, they are in the clear, but as a Christian organization, I expect more than risk aversion esp where the church is involved. 

Once we approached high school, I found Challenge lost its center as it became incredibly broad in scope and shallow in content.  So, we opted out.  However, we left several wonderful families who are diligent, know exactly what they're in for re liability, and who have chosen it.  

I think that's where I depart with the author of this article and others like it in terms of the way parents are painted as in need of rescue.  I'm thankful for the conversations that provide information about the risks to those who are looking into CC.  However, those who are in CC making it work know of the drawbacks and choose it because CC fills a legit educational gap in communities.  These aren't poor homeschool parents who are blind to a corporate structure that is using them (what an uncharitable depiction.)  They aren't doing it for the $$$ or because it gives them a ton of free time.  As the OP alluded to, there are reasons people choose it.  They do it because they want external accountability and weekly community while enjoying flexibility and freedom in a Christian context.  I don't know of another program like it.  The market could certainly use more options, wink wink.  
 

edited for clarity

Edited by Doodlebug
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22 hours ago, Garga said:

Someone started a new forum and some of the more conservative WTMers went there. I took a look around at that forum, but the font is so tiny and the spaces so crowded, I have too much trouble reading it. 

Would you mind sending me a pm with the new forum?  I’m missing so many voices here!

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Interesting conversation. I was considering joining a CC group this fall, but after I received the registration forms I realized I’d have to sign off on certain statements of belief (specifically the statement of marriage) that we don’t uphold. I understood that scriptures and prayer would be part of the CC environment, and I certainly wouldn’t mind my kids being exposed to that although we are not religious ourselves, but I was actually very surprised that particular statement would be a requirement of admission.
 

Why is that classical homeschooling is so closely connected to Christianity, perhaps conservative Christianity? Why does unschooling seem to draw more non-religious types? I feel like I’m breaking the mold being a non-religious classical homeschooler.


I am interested in others’ perspectives on memory work. I like the idea of it — memorizing states and capitals, presidents, geography, major historical and scientific facts, multiplication tables, even some grammar rules. However, when I started digging into CC memory work videos uploaded by parents to YouTube, I was surprised at how much kids were being asked to memorize so quickly. My kids are currently memorizing the presidents, states/capitals, and some geological facts, but slowly... we stop to read about JFK, draw maps, go on hikes to collect rocks. If I followed the CC memory work schedule, we would have time for nothing else. And the point of some of it—why spend a week memorizing the highest mountains on each continent or the the scientific names of the oceanic zones? Sure, memorize the continents and oceans, learn to draw them, identify locations on them. So many of the kids in the videos singing along don’t seem to really understand what they’re saying, but I’m not sure they’re even being asked to understand.

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Not valuing education and simply not being able to afford something and wishing it were cheapef is not the same thing.  In NZ you can buy access to our state correspondence school which is on line with minimal support and supervision by the parent for $7000 a year.  This is more than you pay to attend the only private school in my city which very few people I know can afford because we are a low wage, high cost city.  I would consider WTMA courses much better value.  But at around $1000 NZ  by the time you count fees I can't afford them.  I wish they were cheaper even though I realise they are not overpriced. 

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On 3/27/2021 at 11:16 AM, Doodlebug said:

I don't know of another program like it.  The market could certainly use more options, wink wink.  

In our area, there are some families who are doing "CC" without the official program.  They have chosen materials (some overlap with the original model and some don't) and share in the teaching.  The cost is significantly less since there is no paying the piper.  The parents who teach still don't make a lot of money but it looks more like a traditional co-op to me from the outside.  We have both traditional co-op type groups and enrichment (drop-off) groups in our area.  So you can choose to spend your personal time (teaching or assisting) or cash, but you can still have community.

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4 hours ago, smfmommy said:

In our area, there are some families who are doing "CC" without the official program.  They have chosen materials (some overlap with the original model and some don't) and share in the teaching.  The cost is significantly less since there is no paying the piper.  The parents who teach still don't make a lot of money but it looks more like a traditional co-op to me from the outside.  We have both traditional co-op type groups and enrichment (drop-off) groups in our area.  So you can choose to spend your personal time (teaching or assisting) or cash, but you can still have community.

I know some who do something similar.  However, this type of working together is what homeschoolers did before CC and big co ops ever existed.  It’s funny how it comes full circle.  

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On 3/26/2021 at 7:01 PM, Wheres Toto said:

We have a few CC communities but they don't seem to be a big thing around here.   Probably because we have absolutely no homeschool requirements, so no pressure and lots of unschooling, and there are a ton of groups doing park days and ala carte classes to choose from so it's not hard to find friends/a community.  

I was never the right kind of Christian for CC, but I also was never willing to pay those kinds of prices for some random parent to teach my kids when I could teach them for a lot less with some really high quality materials geared to their exact needs. 

I never understood the appeal. 

This was me. I figured with my luck that my kids would get a parent for their classes who was struggling, in over their heads, and giving a not so great experience, and I'd be kicking my butt every week to prepare for the classes I'd teach and skimping on things at home that my kids need me to do.

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On 3/27/2021 at 6:45 PM, valleyhillfamily said:

Interesting conversation. I was considering joining a CC group this fall, but after I received the registration forms I realized I’d have to sign off on certain statements of belief (specifically the statement of marriage) that we don’t uphold. I understood that scriptures and prayer would be part of the CC environment, and I certainly wouldn’t mind my kids being exposed to that although we are not religious ourselves, but I was actually very surprised that particular statement would be a requirement of admission.
 

Why is that classical homeschooling is so closely connected to Christianity, perhaps conservative Christianity? Why does unschooling seem to draw more non-religious types? I feel like I’m breaking the mold being a non-religious classical homeschooler.


I am interested in others’ perspectives on memory work. I like the idea of it — memorizing states and capitals, presidents, geography, major historical and scientific facts, multiplication tables, even some grammar rules. However, when I started digging into CC memory work videos uploaded by parents to YouTube, I was surprised at how much kids were being asked to memorize so quickly. My kids are currently memorizing the presidents, states/capitals, and some geological facts, but slowly... we stop to read about JFK, draw maps, go on hikes to collect rocks. If I followed the CC memory work schedule, we would have time for nothing else. And the point of some of it—why spend a week memorizing the highest mountains on each continent or the the scientific names of the oceanic zones? Sure, memorize the continents and oceans, learn to draw them, identify locations on them. So many of the kids in the videos singing along don’t seem to really understand what they’re saying, but I’m not sure they’re even being asked to understand.

More than that, understanding (at least in the primary grades) was actively being DISCOURAGED.  

We're liberal Christians, but I would have jumped at a secular classical co-op.  The way creationism versus evolution is framed in Challenge A and B would have been an absolute "oh hell no" for me.  I have a friend who is a strong believer in evolution whose kid started out believing strongly in evolution, but now, in tenth grade, is an ardent creationist as a result of his time in CC.  

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1 hour ago, Terabith said:

More than that, understanding (at least in the primary grades) was actively being DISCOURAGED.  

We're liberal Christians, but I would have jumped at a secular classical co-op.  The way creationism versus evolution is framed in Challenge A and B would have been an absolute "oh hell no" for me.  I have a friend who is a strong believer in evolution whose kid started out believing strongly in evolution, but now, in tenth grade, is an ardent creationist as a result of his time in CC.  

We opted out of the worst book “It just couldnt happen” in A mostly because it was rotten logically... before you even address the science in it.   But I absolutely read Defeating Darwinism in B and had ds read it as I appreciated understanding the philosophical and scientific arguments behind those who support creationism.  DS is going to encounter both views and I think it’s important to cultivate an informed and generous view of those who see things differently.  

CC is creationism heavy.  There is no hiding it.  No doubt there.  So it surprises me that a parent would pin responsibility for a kid’s views on a program they chose which is known for those views.  Im all for fair criticism, but the responsibility for a homeschooled kid’s views on science lie with parents unless the program is they choose is inserting creationism on the sly.  That is one thing you def cant say of cc.  Lol!

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3 minutes ago, Doodlebug said:

We opted out of the worst book “It just couldnt happen” in A mostly because it was rotten logically... before you even address the science in it.   But I absolutely read Defeating Darwinism in B and had ds read it as I appreciated understanding the philosophical and scientific arguments behind those who support creationism.  DS is going to encounter both views and I think it’s important to cultivate an informed and generous view of those who see things differently.  

CC is creationism heavy.  There is no hiding it.  No doubt there.  So it surprises me that a parent would pin responsibility for a kid’s views on a program they chose which is known for those views.  Im all for fair criticism, but the responsibility for a homeschooled kid’s views on science lie with parents unless the program is they choose is inserting creationism on the sly.  That is one thing you def cant say of cc.  Lol!

So, I think my friend's thought was that CC would teach her son about creationism but his grounding in and the family's beliefs in evolution would win out in the end.  What I tried to point out to her years ago was that you take a kid who is programmed by adolescence to want to push back against his parents a bit and towards his peers, surround him with strong creationists as his only peers and trusted non-family adults, and put him in a program that congratulates itself on teaching logic and presents creationism as the most logical conclusion, and it's an unusual kid who will retain their household's beliefs.  

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3 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I think my friend's thought was that CC would teach her son about creationism but his grounding in and the family's beliefs in evolution would win out in the end.  What I tried to point out to her years ago was that you take a kid who is programmed by adolescence to want to push back against his parents a bit and towards his peers, surround him with strong creationists as his only peers and trusted non-family adults, and put him in a program that congratulates itself on teaching logic and presents creationism as the most logical conclusion, and it's an unusual kid who will retain their household's beliefs.  

I hear you.  But if this family is turning over their kid’s highschool science instruction to CC, those are BIG years where so much comes together.  Expecting a family view to stick without providing the highschool level education that supports it is risky.  I wouldnt do it.  

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On 3/26/2021 at 6:46 PM, Terabith said:

My oldest did CC for three years, because it was the ONLY co-op around here, and I was desperate to meet other homeschoolers and for my kid to play with other kids.  The educational philosophy drove me completely insane, and during K-2, nobody really cared if we actually did any of the work, so we definitely didn't, other than playing the cd in the car.  But I would bring up questions like, "Why are we doing such schizophrenic, surface level topics that are so completely developmentally inappropriate," and I was chastised for actually trying to get my kid to understand ANY of the history sentences, because they were supposed to memorize without understanding, since the topics were so developmentally inappropriate.  

Plus science was taught by people who knew absolutely nothing about science.  The whole thing was honestly grotesque, and I really don't get the people who have built their entire homeschool around CC.  

We did the SAT-10 with CC, and I got a hard sell to teach since I had a teaching license. But they wouldn't let me teach music across the age groups, which is my one K-12 certified area, and wanted me to teach challenge, when I'm an early elementary specialist for general Ed. The director couldn't explain WHY it was using the tin whistle, which is much harder to play than recorder (and is more key dependent), when there are hundreds of good books for beginning recorder. 

 

Yeah, no. 

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1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

 

 

We did the SAT-10 with CC, and I got a hard sell to teach since I had a teaching license. But they wouldn't let me teach music across the age groups, which is my one K-12 certified area, and wanted me to teach challenge, when I'm an early elementary specialist for general Ed. The director couldn't explain WHY it was using the tin whistle, which is much harder to play than recorder (and is more key dependent), when there are hundreds of good books for beginning recorder. 

 

Yeah, no. 

The reasoning I have read for tin whistle is that it is a "real instrument"--in fact I think they called it a "real orchestral instrument"--with the implication that the more common recorder is not a real instrument.

I'm fond of tin whistle because my family is into Irish music and dance but that reasoning was nonsense.

We did one year of CC because we had just moved to a new area and needed to connect with local homeschoolers. The people in the group were fabulous but I was exceedingly unimpressed by the actual educational value.

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1 minute ago, maize said:

The reasoning I have read for tin whistle is that it is a "real instrument"--in fact I think they called it a "real orchestral instrument"--with the implication that the more common recorder is not a real instrument.

I'm fond of tin whistle because my family is into Irish music and dance but that reasoning was nonsense.

We did one year of CC because we had just moved to a new area and needed to connect with local homeschoolers. The people in the group were fabulous but I was exceedingly unimpressed by the actual educational value.

Which tells me they know nothing of music history, because a recorder is absolutely a "real instrument" if you're talking Renaissance music (and early Baroque). And let's face it-CC kids aren't playing any reels and jigs-they're doing the same sort of limited pitch stuff any other early beginners are. On an instrument which REQUIRES overblowing!!!

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1 minute ago, Dmmetler said:

Which tells me they know nothing of music history, because a recorder is absolutely a "real instrument" if you're talking Renaissance music (and early Baroque). And let's face it-CC kids aren't playing any reels and jigs-they're doing the same sort of limited pitch stuff any other early beginners are. On an instrument which REQUIRES overblowing!!!

I've wanted to really learn to play the recorder ever since a recorder quartet performed at my junior high decades ago. I especially love the sounds of alto and tenor recorders.

I'm busy right now teaching myself to play the low D whistle though, so recorders will have to wait 🙂

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57 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

 

ach 

We did the SAT-10 with CC, and I got a hard sell to teach since I had a teaching license. But they wouldn't let me teach music across the age groups, which is my one K-12 certified area, and wanted me to teach challenge, when I'm an early elementary specialist for general Ed. The director couldn't explain WHY it was using the tin whistle, which is much harder to play than recorder (and is more key dependent), when there are hundreds of good books for beginning recorder. 

 

Yeah, no. 

This was me too.  I teach Latin, not certified, but have taught in co-ops for years.  It is what I put years of study and time into.  I created classes and clubs at parent run co-ops so that my kids had a peer group for years.  So CC courted me for a long time to teach.  But I couldn't teach just Latin.  I was supposed to teach everything for one grade level only.  I stuck with teaching at my regular co-op for free with my kids. At one point I did get third party hired to "tutor" (teach) the high school Latin 3 course because the director found she could outsource high school.  It was for VERY cheap, but I wanted to try it.  I did it one semester.  The kids were not prepared for that level of latin and neither continued after that semester with me. 

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42 minutes ago, maize said:

I've wanted to really learn to play the recorder ever since a recorder quartet performed at my junior high decades ago. I especially love the sounds of alto and tenor recorders.

I'm busy right now teaching myself to play the low D whistle though, so recorders will have to wait 🙂

Recorders alternate fingerings based on size, so tenor is the same as soprano. I recommend one with keys for the lowest notes vs holes because they are big and hard to cover cleanly. Fingerings are similar to flute or saxophone

 

Alto has a different fingering system. It's like clarinet. 

 

I play Sopranino, soprano, Alto and tenor. I've played bass, but it is really too large for me to handle easily. (I also play saxophone and clarinet). 

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4 minutes ago, 2_girls_mommy said:

This was me too.  I teach Latin, not certified, but have taught in co-ops for years.  It is what I put years of study and time into.  I created classes and clubs at parent run co-ops so that my kids had a peer group for years.  So CC courted me for a long time to teach.  But I couldn't teach just Latin.  I was supposed to teach everything for one grade level only.  I stuck with teaching at my regular co-op for free with my kids. At one point I did get third party hired to "tutor" (teach) the high school Latin 3 course because the director found she could outsource high school.  It was for VERY cheap, but I wanted to try it.  I did it one semester.  The kids were not prepared for that level of latin and neither continued after that semester with me. 

 

This is one of my biggest concerns about the challenge levels of CC. You have one person teaching six or so subjects. It is super hard to be good at everything. Plus, at least here, you can't teach Challenge unless you have kids in the CC program. So the experienced tutors who graduate their kids are not able to keep teaching. I had also heard that all of your children have to be in the program to be a tutor.  Anyway, it seemed so silly to me to have someone spend years getting experience teaching challenge 1 only to have to boot them out when their kids graduate.  Often times they recruit new, inexperienced moms for Challenge, and that just seems like a train wreck waiting to happen.  They honestly charge too much for inexperienced tutors, and unless you are lucky and get a mom who has been doing it for years because she has multiple kids, that is often what you get.  At least here, you can go to the UM school and get professional teachers who teach the same course year after year for only a little more money.  

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8 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Recorders alternate fingerings based on size, so tenor is the same as soprano. I recommend one with keys for the lowest notes vs holes because they are big and hard to cover cleanly. Fingerings are similar to flute or saxophone

 

Alto has a different fingering system. It's like clarinet. 

 

I play Sopranino, soprano, Alto and tenor. I've played bass, but it is really too large for me to handle easily. (I also play saxophone and clarinet). 

I played flute for a couple of years in high school but don't really remember the fingerings. I'm hoping to re-learn eventually 🙂 

I'm struggling right now with right hand positioning for the big whistle; I have small hands and even with only three holes to cover they are far enough apart that it is hard to cover all three at once without cramping my hand. I can use the piper's grip and cover them with my first three fingers but it's hard to get enough pressure to cover the holes completely with the middle finger section. Or I can use my pinky to cover the last hole and that lets me cover the holes with fingertips but my hand ends up stiff because of stretching the fingers apart. There are definite advantages to keys and pads!

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6 minutes ago, cintinative said:

 

This is one of my biggest concerns about the challenge levels of CC. You have one person teaching six or so subjects. It is super hard to be good at everything. Plus, at least here, you can't teach Challenge unless you have kids in the CC program. So the experienced tutors who graduate their kids are not able to keep teaching. I had also heard that all of your children have to be in the program to be a tutor.  Anyway, it seemed so silly to me to have someone spend years getting experience teaching challenge 1 only to have to boot them out when their kids graduate.  Often times they recruit new, inexperienced moms for Challenge, and that just seems like a train wreck waiting to happen.  They honestly charge too much for inexperienced tutors, and unless you are lucky and get a mom who has been doing it for years because she has multiple kids, that is often what you get.  At least here, you can go to the UM school and get professional teachers who teach the same course year after year for only a little more money.  

yes, these are all questions I asked at the parent information session I went to.  The answers didn't satisfy me.  And my kids weren't in the program ever.  The semester I taught at the high school level (I don't know their official names,) the director said she had found out that she could outsource at the uppermost high school levels out of her pay, so she did. 

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It's wild to me that given all these limitations, that CC is still so successful. They use a very narrow teaching strategy that appeals to only a few and only works for some. They don't use qualified teachers on the whole (obviously there are exceptions). They have a very narrow view of evolution/creationism that only suits some families. They have a business model that exploits the labor of homeschool moms.

Why is this making so much bank for them?!?

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26 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I think they have great marketing.  

 

this. They tell people they need support and they can't do it on their own, and here is a our prepackaged solution!  Then they require the entire family to be enrolled, guaranteeing that they will get that tuition x number of kids and pressure the moms to teach as a way of offsetting the tuition.  

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The room full of tin whistles (which are shrill and annoying and much worse sounding in the hands of inexperienced kids) being played full blast by a room full of kindergarteners and taught for only six weeks by a tutor who knew NOTHING about music was so incredibly painful.  I would have much, much preferred recorder, and I would have preferred more than six weeks spent on it.  Or no time spent on it.  I didn't even let my kids practice the tin whistle unless they went outdoors.  There seemed no point in practicing for so little time invested, and the sound was so painful to me.

But none of our tutors knew ANYTHING about science.  They'd do science experiments where they'd read from the manual, and kids would ask why, and the tutor would say, "I don't know."  So I'd try to casually interject, "I think this is because y," but to do it without stepping on anyone's toes.  

Around here, it was popular because it was the ONLY co-op in town.  If you wanted your homeschooling kid to meet other homeschooling kids, it was the only option.  

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2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

But none of our tutors knew ANYTHING about science.  They'd do science experiments where they'd read from the manual, and kids would ask why, and the tutor would say, "I don't know."  So I'd try to casually interject, "I think this is because y," but to do it without stepping on anyone's toes.  

Around here, it was popular because it was the ONLY co-op in town.  If you wanted your homeschooling kid to meet other homeschooling kids, it was the only option.  

 

Hey, that sounds like math at our homeschooling center before I took the class over! Apparently, it's possible to obtain ignorance with a wide range of approaches 😉 . 

I don't understand why people expect to get something good out of a random, totally untrained parent teaching something they don't know. That's the thing CC and our local homeschooling center sometimes have in common, and I think the results are predictably poor. 

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Here are some of the things I've seen that they have going for them:

1. The little kid level draws them in. It's most popular at the youngest age levels, with drop off after that. At those ages, the ability to recite lots of memory work looks really impressive, like a parlor trick. If your oldest kids are still K-2, you can feel very FOMO and worry that your kids can't recite all these things. It looks like they are speeding ahead. Plus this is the time, with young moms, when women love community and need confidence boosts. 

2. They really drink and sell the koolaid on how great it is for the kids, that tons of them get into excellent colleges. I think there is zero evidence for this, since almost none seem to actually go through all the levels until graduation with CC. I knew one mom IRL who gave me the hard sell big time. She almost wouldn't take no for an answer, and was adamant that the memory work was hanging up "pegs" that would anchor all the later learning, that they were doing the very best in homeschooling. I demurred, and a year later she had started her own school with a different program and suddenly was willing to discuss all the things wrong with CC. I was just marveling that the koolaid was that strong even when she was secretly looking elsewhere. Partly that's because there's an internal focus on recruiting?

3. They force you to stay there, and while I consider that a negative, it does build community. The only mom I know now IRL who does CC is very defensive about it and knows all the things people have said about it. She just says she loves the accountability, the community, and if people don't want to do it, they don't have to, but it has been a blessing for their family. And that's what you most hear. The corporate might be awful, but locally the groups are loyal to their little circle of friends. Leaving would be like leaving your friends. 

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On 3/26/2021 at 7:49 PM, Lori D. said:

I doubt it would count here, if someone else, often a university student, can offer tutoring of high school math for $15-25/hour. 😉 

As the saying goes, you just "can't squeeze blood out of a turnip" -- if homeschoolers are barely making it on that single income (driving one car, no frills living), they just can't pay $50+/hour -- even $15-$25/hour is going to be extremely difficult for them to swing more than once or twice a month... 😢

Area rates are very variable. Last year, I started getting questions about teaching online when people had local teachers who didn't want to go online or weren't doing a particularly good job with younger kids, and I quoted $25/lesson since that's the non-resident rate through the community center (and kind of cringed because the non-resident rate is higher than almost anyone in the area except for college private lessons for credit)-and got told flat out by moms in NYC, Seattle, and San Diego that I was downright cheap (my NYC mom said that my resident rate for a 12 week semester was what she was used to paying for a single month of lessons, with someone with lower credentials than I have). 

 

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

The room full of tin whistles (which are shrill and annoying and much worse sounding in the hands of inexperienced kids) being played full blast by a room full of kindergarteners and taught for only six weeks by a tutor who knew NOTHING about music was so incredibly painful.  I would have much, much preferred recorder, and I would have preferred more than six weeks spent on it.  Or no time spent on it.  I didn't even let my kids practice the tin whistle unless they went outdoors.  There seemed no point in practicing for so little time invested, and the sound was so painful to me.

But none of our tutors knew ANYTHING about science.  They'd do science experiments where they'd read from the manual, and kids would ask why, and the tutor would say, "I don't know."  So I'd try to casually interject, "I think this is because y," but to do it without stepping on anyone's toes.  

Around here, it was popular because it was the ONLY co-op in town.  If you wanted your homeschooling kid to meet other homeschooling kids, it was the only option.  

Yeah, that would be a total failure. I usually do recorder for a full semester when I do it as a co-op class, although we don't just do recorder, and even that takes it to barely tolerable by the end. And I can guarantee I know some tricks to teaching recorder and making it less painful than a mom who's last experience with it was her 4th grade school music class does. And tin whistle is a LOT harder to play than recorder. 

 

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I went into CC reluctantly, purely for the opportunity to meet other homeschoolers.  I was clear from the beginning that this was not our educational philosophy, that it didn't align with our religious beliefs, that we weren't going to put a lot of time into the CC work when we were not there, and that we were doing it just for the social and community benefits.  And I did it long enough for my youngest to do one year, and then we bailed.  

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Total bunny trail but since tin whistle is being discussed I'll put in a plug for my favorite non-shrill beginner's whistle. The wooden fipple makes a big difference in mellowing the tone:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B001B9JZ78?pf_rd_r=NF1YHBVN3HRVHNP1FZNE&pf_rd_p=89879054-2e37-4233-9fd7-bd5a93dd076a&pd_rd_r=dec34c06-a6cb-4f25-9da8-259ea6d9cf10&pd_rd_w=8LLm5&pd_rd_wg=Bi5oo

 

 

 

 

 

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In terms of draw, specifically speaking middle school years here, the big things for me were:  Academically: we did our own math/science.  Beyond that, DS had a consistent community of invested families to work with through Latin, expo/comp, literature, etc.  He wrote far better papers knowing the class was going to hear them than he did for me.  I also knew what to anticipate every week. 

To that last point of consistency and engagement, we specifically chose CC over the local co op because the cc community seemed to offer more consistency across the work at home and on community days.  I never had to guess what a director would focus on in class.  And ds knew exactly what he needed to have completed.  We were consistent for the most part, but when we weren’t, it was given that parents are the teachers and ultimately responsible.  Flexibility.

The drop-off nature of Challenge is also appealing, compared to the local co op.  I wanted DS to have time away from me.  

I think forming small co op groups of 5-6 families would’ve provided for all the above.  However, then you have social relationships on the line if a family isnt pulling their weight (that’s an awful way to phrase it, but ykwim).  And typically, the life of these small groups isnt something you can rely upon for the duration.  CC parents can see the end already laid out for them.  What they dont see is that their kid is going to exhibit strengths and eventually, doing CC becomes a speed bump in highschool.  Tailoring and doing your own thing to suit those strengths/weaknesses tips the scale eventually and a full day invested in only the 2-3 subjects in common with CC isnt workable in highschool.    

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Locally, homeschool groups are registering for fall classes.  Outside of co-op, we interact with homeschool families at karate (we do some morning homeschool classes and some afternoon ones with kids in school) and also at music lessons (our teacher used to do a lot of afterschool lessons but at this point does a handful afterschool and does a full day of private lessons for a bunch of homeschoolers - we don't know each other well but know each other to speak to).  I've had 2 not-new-to-homeschooling families from those activities ask about joining our co-op for social reasons and I know that one of them is a CC family because she specifically said that they weren't necessarily looking for academics other than maybe science as I was recommending classes.  We do a mix of academic and enrichment, so families can pick what they want.  I was surprised because I had heard that one of the draws to CC was that there is a great community.  

And, like others, I also fail to understand paying people to teach all the stuff if they don't have experience.  At co-op, sometimes people are asked to do something that they aren't an expert in, but they definitely don't ask people who don't have teaching experience to come in and manage all subjects. There's a big difference between an experienced teacher adding a new class (I taught Earth Science this year in addition to my usual biology) or a mom putting together a fun class based around the Magic Treehouse series for late elementary or a  K-2  Five in a Row books and projects class and asking a mom who has never done it before to teach all subjects to a 5th grader.  

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4 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

And, like others, I also fail to understand paying people to teach all the stuff if they don't have experience.  At co-op, sometimes people are asked to do something that they aren't an expert in, but they definitely don't ask people who don't have teaching experience to come in and manage all subjects. There's a big difference between an experienced teacher adding a new class (I taught Earth Science this year in addition to my usual biology) or a mom putting together a fun class based around the Magic Treehouse series for late elementary or a  K-2  Five in a Row books and projects class and asking a mom who has never done it before to teach all subjects to a 5th grader.  

This points to one reason I stepped away from directing.  In the middle school years, it's completely feasible for a director to know the material well enough to guide students through their weekly work and to answer questions.  I was teaching my DS these things at home, so it wasn't difficult to pull that into a classroom review/ introduce format.  However, by ninth grade, doing this across highschool level  Latin, sciences, literature, etc., is almost unimaginable.  There are ways to make it work, as directors can team up according to their strengths -- a humanities director and math/science director-- who cover two CHallenge levels in a morning/afternoon trade off.  But even that assumes a parent director has/is using the CC specific materials for that class.  I will not use LTW again.  I will not use Saxon for highschool maths.  I will not use Apologia Science.  And in literature, I would rather cover 5 great works of literature in a year than the 30 titles CC chooses.  This isn't to throw dirt on those who DO use these programs.  My point is that MOST families will have students who would be better served by other curricula: Henle Latin is unpopular with MOST CCers I know.  Or maybe they want a legit year of Geometry, not the mash up Saxon does incrementally.  So, to land the plane...  at some point, staying in CC will require a parent to expend a great deal of energy outside the interests of their own family and homeschool.  That's the head scratcher for me.  I understand utilizing a program that enhances what you're doing at home.  But the moment it tips the balance, when the model is no longer serving the family, but vice versa... why stay?   I have friends in the program who DS and I miss (we still talk and get together), but there's no way I would make that trade off.  

ETA: So much of this comes down to what options are available.  Where I'm from, CC hit the middle of the road between the uber rigid classical school that piled on the homework (using many of the same programs) and the largest co op of very extroverted free-style moms who make awesome friends but homeschool very differently than we do.  

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On 4/1/2021 at 9:38 AM, maize said:

I played flute for a couple of years in high school but don't really remember the fingerings. I'm hoping to re-learn eventually 🙂 

I'm struggling right now with right hand positioning for the big whistle; I have small hands and even with only three holes to cover they are far enough apart that it is hard to cover all three at once without cramping my hand. I can use the piper's grip and cover them with my first three fingers but it's hard to get enough pressure to cover the holes completely with the middle finger section. Or I can use my pinky to cover the last hole and that lets me cover the holes with fingertips but my hand ends up stiff because of stretching the fingers apart. There are definite advantages to keys and pads!

 In some early music festivals/groups keyed recorders are considered inauthentic, so I only use my smaller wood ones when I play Ren faires, etc. But woodwind players (who are used to keys and pads) love them, and they make it far, far easier to play more complex music well, and easier to be in tune because it gives more fingering options.  I'd actually prefer to start kids on Alto vs soprano recorder (it is closer to the standard voice range, so is easier to play along with singing), but the hand size makes that problematic without bell keys,and the cost is more like that of a good clarinet than the $10 or less soprano recorders. 

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, seemesew said:

This is why I have a hard time in general with Group schools. I'm in this position now with our commonwealth group and its a hard call to make!

I have actually wanted to try CC but after hearing about me not being able to participate because of my religion I haven't looked farther.

FWIW, in the schools I'vw taught in, usually classroom teachers start specializing at about 4th grade, and students start rotating, and definitely by middle school. By high school, even more so. You simply don't have one teacher teaching all subjects in a school setting after the first few years (and even then, usually the classroom teacher is teaching reading and math with a little science and social studies thrown in. If the school has music, art, PE, foreign language, computer lab, or even lab science, these are usually taught by a specialist.) That was one reason why I was so gobsmacked by the "oh, good! You're a teacher! That means you can teach completely outside your certification areas and teach high school!"

 

Uh, I'm an early childhood (birth to age 7), K-12 music, and K-8 math specialist. By my calculations, the only thing I might be qualified to do for your high school kids is to teach choir! 

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32 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

FWIW, in the schools I'vw taught in, usually classroom teachers start specializing at about 4th grade, and students start rotating, and definitely by middle school. By high school, even more so. You simply don't have one teacher teaching all subjects in a school setting after the first few years (and even then, usually the classroom teacher is teaching reading and math with a little science and social studies thrown in. If the school has music, art, PE, foreign language, computer lab, or even lab science, these are usually taught by a specialist.) That was one reason why I was so gobsmacked by the "oh, good! You're a teacher! That means you can teach completely outside your certification areas and teach high school!"

 

Uh, I'm an early childhood (birth to age 7), K-12 music, and K-8 math specialist. By my calculations, the only thing I might be qualified to do for your high school kids is to teach choir! 

I think coming from a strictly school model TO homeschool group settings, the lack of specialization stands out.  (I came to homeschooling from graduate school -- an education field.) 

But the homeschool way of life (co-ops/ outsourcing excluded) has always required parents to be at least somewhat fluent across subjects.  This is the mindset my homeschooling friends have as they go into co ops for highschool.  They aren't looking for specialization, though that would be nice.  The decision rests in perceiving that the co op provides something better than what they perceive they could provide (which includes a financial component).  So, my guess is that as a teacher, you represented "better" in the above scenario. 

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Not needing specialized training to teach your kids is definitely a theme in homeschooling.  And for the most part I agree with it and most people are open to outsourcing the things they are truly bad at teaching.   

But to me hiring the occasional teacher or outsourcing the occasional class is different than paying random other moms thousands of dollars to teach things they are not experts at.   If I'm paying that kind of money it's because I don't feel capable of teaching that subject and I want somebody who I can feel confident they will do it right.   

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1 hour ago, Wheres Toto said:

But to me hiring the occasional teacher or outsourcing the occasional class is different than paying random other moms thousands of dollars to teach things they are not experts at.

Precisely. I have no qualms outsourcing, but if I do so it’s with the understanding that I am purchasing experience &/or expertise which makes them vastly better suited to presenting the material. 

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2 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

 

But to me hiring the occasional teacher or outsourcing the occasional class is different than paying random other moms thousands of dollars to teach things they are not experts at.   If I'm paying that kind of money it's because I don't feel capable of teaching that subject and I want somebody who I can feel confident they will do it right.   

I hear this a lot online wrt CC.  But IRL, it doesn't play out like this in the middle school and high school programs.  As one who paid it for middle school, here's how I justified it.  Let's say you have a mom or dad who directs with a specific strength.  Let's say a math/science strength, which has been one case in my experience (others I know have had a humanities strength).  Paying what amounts to $50 a week for one full day of school subjects, half of which is time spent with that math, science, and logic strong director in those subjects, is still cheaper than the tutor I hired for math in the 5th grade and SHARED with two other families.  As for our time at CC, I think we got more than we paid for because had an excellent director who was diligent across all subjects.     

There are bad directors, obviously.  I've never had one, but I knew to evaluate the director as part of the overall program.  If there's a small or new community, I would be more wary.  But if you're in the CC world at an established campus, you tend to know who is teaching in the Challenge levels.  There aren't a ton of newcomers in highschool jumping at the chance to direct ALL highschool level subjects just so they can financially cover the family's summer vacay (directing is not lucrative for the directors).  They are motivated to do so because they are invested with kids in the program and generally enjoy teaching.  (Of the directors I know, most were teachers who left that profession to homeschool their families.)

Outsourcing in highschool is incredibly expensive.  I am thankful we have the resources to do so.  However, that isn't the case for everyone and I think the generally accepted premise that school choice is a culmination of many factors is a perspective that is often not extended to CCers.  But it's very much a factor in the homeschool world just as it is in the private/public school worlds. 

I will refrain from commenting further as I do not wish to justify CC's model, and this (my) post is edging uncomfortably close to it.  My hope in participating was to provide insight as to why people choose the model, separate from the corporate practices.  I think I've done that and will leave the conversation to others.  🙂                     

  

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On 4/3/2021 at 10:34 AM, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Precisely. I have no qualms outsourcing, but if I do so it’s with the understanding that I am purchasing experience &/or expertise which makes them vastly better suited to presenting the material. 

There are other valid reasons to outsource, including meeting the social and emotional needs of kids.

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