How do you see your old age?

[marbel]

14 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I don’t agree. I think it is far worse to now save for the future and saddling your kids with your debt. My dad is the only person in my entire extended family that ever went to any sort of senior living and it killed him, literally. It was my older sister’s idea because she is single and childless and sees that sort of thing as fine and great. He never should have been there. If my children ditch me in some facility when there is not a need for it, then my money and my assets will go to charity. I don’t even have to tell my kids this though as they saw what happened to my Dad and they said it first. I am not a part of the culture that sends away elderly family members. I was raised that we take care of each other and even the elderly are vital family members, non-disposable.

I know you are still hurting from your father's death and I am sorry. But many people do well in senior facilities, better than they would have at home. Covid was an out of the blue event and yes, it is horrible that people died unnecessarily. I live in PA, one of the states where Covid patients were sent to senior facilities, which caused a lot of unnecessary death. It is horrible. 

Still, it does no good to talk to young children in this way. That has nothing to do with saving or not saving money. 

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who had a parent die in a senior facility and the idea that we considered our parents disposable is a bit insulting.

Edited March 25, 2021 by marbel

[Janeway]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I know your dad's death is fresh so I am sorry about that.  I don't understand the bolded sentence above....

But I still do not believe it is reasonable to tell your underage children that if they don't take care of you you will give your money to charity.  You are stripping them of the opportunity to CHOOSE to take care of you because they love you, not because you are leaving your money elsewhere.

I am unclear why you feel the senior living place killed him.  My understanding was that he died of Covid.

 

I haven’t told my underaged kids that they won’t get my money if they abandon me. I have told them they won’t abandon me. If they choose to abandon me anyway, then they can find out when I am gone that abandonment can go both ways. They will have plenty of opportunity to do the right things without any financial incentive. However, like most things in life, there are consequences and relationships are two ways. I don’t buy in to the social norm of a small portion of this world that doesn’t value their elders and sends them off to homes 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

I haven’t told my underaged kids that they won’t get my money if they abandon me. I have told them they won’t abandon me. If they choose to abandon me anyway, then they can find out when I am gone that abandonment can go both ways. They will have plenty of opportunity to do the right things without any financial incentive. However, like most things in life, there are consequences and relationships are two ways. I don’t buy in to the social norm of a small portion of this world that doesn’t value their elders and sends them off to homes 

I don't believe anyone on this thread has said they view elders that way.  It has been a discussion about what is reasonable as regards our own needs as we age.  Most of us don't want to unnecessarily burden our children.  Many here have already cared for their own elderly parents up to death.  Some of that has involved skilled nursing facility.  Recognizing one's own limitations as regard to the care we  can give is not equivalent to abandoning our parents.  

[Annie G]

Janeway, I’m sorry your dad had such an awful experience. I know it’s very fresh grief and that’s hard.  if your kids won’t/can’t care for you and you won’t go into assisted living, what will you do? I’m guessing you mean you’ll hire 24/7 care in home. 

I don’t want my kids to care for me if it’s beyond their ability level, whether it’s mental or physical reasons they feel they cannot. They’ve all seen what caring for their grandparents has done to us-it was a privilege to care for them but at a point it was beyond our ability. (Dh and I were so stressed we needed Xanax to just walk into the situation near the end) We cared for them til the end but I can’t honestly say we were equipped to give the best care possible.

My parents put my grandmother in a nursing home becuase they truly couldn;t care for her at home. I hope they never felt guilt. They both had to work and Gram wandered out of the house and was blind. Dad visited her every single day. You do what you have to do. 
 

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Janeway, I’m sorry your dad had such an awful experience. I know it’s very fresh grief and that’s hard.  if your kids won’t/can’t care for you and you won’t go into assisted living, what will you do? I’m guessing you mean you’ll hire 24/7 care in home. 

I don’t want my kids to care for me if it’s beyond their ability level, whether it’s mental or physical reasons they feel they cannot. They’ve all seen what caring for their grandparents has done to us-it was a privilege to care for them but at a point it was beyond our ability. (Dh and I were so stressed we needed Xanax to just walk into the situation near the end) We cared for them til the end but I can’t honestly say we were equipped to give the best care possible.

My parents put my grandmother in a nursing home becuase they truly couldn;t care for her at home. I hope they never felt guilt. They both had to work and Gram wandered out of the house and was blind. Dad visited her every single day. You do what you have to do. 
 

 

My MIL kept my FIL home until the very end.  There were times we BEGGED her to put him in a nursing home because he was still mobile and we felt dangerous to her. She is proud she kept him home until the end but it took its toll on her health.  We really worried she would die before he did.  Dh has already instructed me that if he gets like his Step-dad did I am to put him in a nursing home with no guilt.  I know I would do everything I could to not do so.

 

[marbel]

22 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I haven’t told my underaged kids that they won’t get my money if they abandon me. I have told them they won’t abandon me. If they choose to abandon me anyway, then they can find out when I am gone that abandonment can go both ways. They will have plenty of opportunity to do the right things without any financial incentive. However, like most things in life, there are consequences and relationships are two ways. I don’t buy in to the social norm of a small portion of this world that doesn’t value their elders and sends them off to homes 

What does that mean?  How can you tell your kids what they will or won't do decades from now? You can tell them what you would like, but how can you say "you won't do this?" I am genuinely confused.  

[Janeway]

Curious. Those who think they haven’t saved enough for the future, but don’t want to “burden” their kids with their care so they may go to a home, who are you all expecting to pay for it? And if you feel you are a burden to your kids, then do you see them as burdens now? Just a thought.

[Janeway]

27 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Janeway, I’m sorry your dad had such an awful experience. I know it’s very fresh grief and that’s hard.  if your kids won’t/can’t care for you and you won’t go into assisted living, what will you do? I’m guessing you mean you’ll hire 24/7 care in home. 

I don’t want my kids to care for me if it’s beyond their ability level, whether it’s mental or physical reasons they feel they cannot. They’ve all seen what caring for their grandparents has done to us-it was a privilege to care for them but at a point it was beyond our ability. (Dh and I were so stressed we needed Xanax to just walk into the situation near the end) We cared for them til the end but I can’t honestly say we were equipped to give the best care possible.

My parents put my grandmother in a nursing home becuase they truly couldn;t care for her at home. I hope they never felt guilt. They both had to work and Gram wandered out of the house and was blind. Dad visited her every single day. You do what you have to do. 
 

 

I said in another post that if I required a level of care that would be too difficult to do at home, then I would be okay with a facility. I would consider a case where I am wondering away and need memory care to be one of those situations. 

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, freesia said:

Gently, I think that approach is setting up a lot of stress for all people involved.  It's really rigid--you do this or else, I will only do xyz.  You all might enjoy each other more as you move into these years by having a less rigid view.  

I agree. Plus, if my mother had been more willing to move into a flat where she had some support, she would not have experienced the crisis that resulted in hospital stays and a care home. She might still be living much more independently now if she had been more flexible.

[Annie G]

4 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Curious. Those who think they haven’t saved enough for the future, but don’t want to “burden” their kids with their care so they may go to a home, who are you all expecting to pay for it? And if you feel you are a burden to your kids, then do you see them as burdens now? Just a thought.

I never felt our kids were burdens. We chose to have children and with that comes the expectation that we should raise them. However, there’s no telling when dh or I may need care and if our kids are knee deep in careers or raising their own family or saving for their retirement, I do not want them to feel my needs should come before theirs. 
 

I feel we’re financially ok if we need to pay for care. People who have no resources, I cannot comment on, but I expect Medicaid is their only choice. There were Medicaid patients in Gram’s nursing home and I never noticed they received significantly different care than my grandmother. My folks did Gram’s laundry at our house, and they got her a phone and tv service, but those are pretty minor things.

[Annie G]

5 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I said in another post that if I required a level of care that would be too difficult to do at home, then I would be okay with a facility. I would consider a case where I am wondering away and need memory care to be one of those situations. 

Here’s the problem with that- if you have the mindset that your kids are abandoning you if they don’t care for you (unless you need memory care, I guess), you do realize that If you do need memory care you will probably fight it. People do. So are you setting your kids up to feel guilty if they feel they can’t do it at home? I mean, calling it abandonment seems pretty specific.  

[Scarlett]

18 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Curious. Those who think they haven’t saved enough for the future, but don’t want to “burden” their kids with their care so they may go to a home, who are you all expecting to pay for it? And if you feel you are a burden to your kids, then do you see them as burdens now? Just a thought.

If I get bad enough to need to go to a nursing home I certainly don't expect my son to pay for it.  I will pay for it out of my small savings until that is gone and then the state will pay.  I do hope it does not come to that though. There are a lot of in between options that I hope will work.  

[marbel]

23 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Curious. Those who think they haven’t saved enough for the future, but don’t want to “burden” their kids with their care so they may go to a home, who are you all expecting to pay for it? And if you feel you are a burden to your kids, then do you see them as burdens now? Just a thought.

Very few people can ever be certain they have saved enough for the future. No one knows what will happen, what kind of care they might need, what their resources will be. I think most people plan and save as best they can. As for me? I am planning and saving as best I can. I know I could end up in a Medicaid-paid nursing home. That would not be my preference. As a long-time taxpayer, I don't exactly feel entitled to that, but the program exists for people who need it and I have contributed to it through my taxes.

As for my children being burdens, of course not. My husband and I brought them into the world, so it is our obligation and privilege to care for them. That has nothing to do with obligating them to care for us as we age. Certainly I hope that out of love for us they will do the best they can. But they owe us nothing. 

Edited March 25, 2021 by marbel

[Melissa in Australia]

Why fight each other and get stresses about this. 

Time and unforeseen circumstances befall us all

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Why fight each other and get stresses about this. 

Time and unforeseen circumstances befall us all

I am not stressed today. LOL  I was the other night, and I always post when I am stressed.  I mostly just try to do the best I can.  Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

[slackermom]

#vanlife

[Melissa Louise]

45 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Why fight each other and get stresses about this. 

Time and unforeseen circumstances befall us all

Truth.

[bolt.]

I expect DH and I to have enough saved in retirement investments to live from his retirement for at least a couple of decades. During that time we will also receive payments from the government (Canada) according to what we qualify for. Government medical coverage will increase from to include prescriptions, etc. at age 65.

We expect to live normally as the 'upper middle' people we are these days, including some travel, or perhaps quite a lot of travel -- depending on what we can afford.

At a certain point, my parents will pass away and there will be an inheritance to top up any shortfall. I'm not counting on that before I'm 85 or so, though.

As our health declines, we intend to progressively make use of home services, seniors' housing, and care homes as they become medically advisable. There might be some point at which sharing a home with grown children could make sense -- we would consider it, but not expect it. 

I would not expect our children to provide any medical care: it would either be hired-at-home or included at a facility. Medical care should be provided by properly compensated professionals. I would expect the kids to provide kindness care (meals, visits, outings) according to how much makes sense to them. They could also provide help with chores, errands, or personal care (shower help, nails, grooming, etc.) if the feel comfortable with that sort of thing. (If not, no big deal. That can be hired too.)

If we are referred to a care home setting, there is a portion covered by the government and a portion to be paid by the resident, which I expect to continue to pay from our savings, investments, sale of our home, etc. I'd expect our children to help facilitate any placements and take care of organizing the finances if we can't manage. (If it all goes belly-up and we have no non-government income and no assets to protect, we would sign a sort of direct arrangement where our care would get fully covered between the gov't and the facility.)

I expect to die in a care facility, a hospital, or a hospice -- depending how acute my end-of-life scenario turns out to be. I expect to outlive my husband, since the statistics are in my favour!

Edited March 25, 2021 by bolt.

[Laurel-in-CA]

On 3/24/2021 at 7:30 AM, Annie G said:

Dh retired at age 60, nearly 2 years ago. His job was stressful, he was further stressed by his parents’ illnesses, and his health made us wary to delay retirement. He has 8 stents in his heart and has had a bypass, and his right side is 100% blocked.  So we are doing what we can now...staying super busy and doing things that we might not be able to do in 10 years. 

‘Routine is very important. Having a list of things to accomplish is a big help.  Doing things for the community are as rewarding as a paid job.

The only real issue is that due to his health he’s not as able to do what I can do so I mostly go at his pace. We’re working on fixing that because If I don’t push myself my health will suffer. For instance, he is pushing it to walk a mile at a slow pace.  I need to do 2-3 miles at a much faster pace.  I want to cycle as I always have but he struggles to ride slowly and for a mile or two.  So working on him feeling left behind and me feeling selfish for wanting to leave him behind. But we’ll work it out. We have talked and are getting there...

Financially we’re fine. We live a pretty simple life. If something catastrophic happens like a depression, we’ll be in the same boat as everyone...sinking. I mean, you can never be totally sure you’re financially set. Though if I had a billion dollars like Kylie Jenner, yeah, I’d feel 100% secure. g
Two of our 4 kids are nearby and willing to help us, and in fact already do when needed. However, we’ve had talks with them about not feeling obligated to care for us if it’s overwhelming. They’ve seen what caring for our parents has done to us. We absolutely wanted to do it for our parents but that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been an enormous price to pay. It was HARD to care for his folks, and my dad is the only one left and he’s beyond difficult. It’s tough on a relationship.  (The other two who aren’t planning to help us? I’m totally cool with that. It’s not for everyone, and no hard feelings.)
 

Your comments about the fitness difference between you and your dh are spot on. In our case, I'm the less fit one but we've started walking together at lunch and then he goes out evenings to play ping pong for a couple hours with friends. I work on not feeling abandoned -- after all, it's not that I *like* ping pong. We've recently added pickleball doubles once/week and there he can play against friends and if need be I can sit out a game.

My brother is fiercely fit @ 60 and his wife has rheumatoid arthritis. They go to a local park where he runs while she walks and they chat whenever he runs past her. And then he has a group of guys he hikes/cycles with.

Just wanted to say, good for you for working it out!

[lmrich]

We will be fine with finances. We will need to work on social stuff. 

 

In terms of nursing homes and long term care... my grandfather at 90 went to one for some rehab. He loved being there and even wanted a roommate. He loved the food, the music, the garden, the pastors and church groups who visited, the bus trips to the store... He was sad to leave. He returned a few years later and had the same experience until he passed away. The facility was nice but not a really nice or expensive one. It was the programming and the people who made it lovely. 

[Laurel-in-CA]

We're already in our mid-60s and our last kiddo graduates high school this year. DH will probably work until she finishes her BA -- 3 to 4 years. By that time, hopefully the two 20-somethings still house-sharing will be on their own too. We plan to move to a cheaper state but would like to be near family -- which would mean not that much savings in housing costs. Otherwise, it's start over somewhere newer, cheaper, and probably much more expensive for our kids to come visit. DH will probably survive me as I have more "conditions" than he does, LOL. Right now we think that if we can cover housing by buying something within our equity and social security doesn't go away, we should be able to manage retirement. Probably. But like all of us, we're seeing life as a lot less predictable after this year...so only God knows for sure. Man proposes, God disposes, eh?

My mom was in assisted living until she started falling (she had parkinson's and diabetes) and then moved to a small family care home. Very stressful for my sister making the move, but it was a wonderful place for her to spend her final years. They took her to dr. appts., chose menus she liked, in the end fed her spoonful by spoonful and helped her swallow (yes, PD affects those muscles too). Lovely people with a gift for kindness.

[City Mouse]

After reading Janeway’s comments, I am wondering what level of care would be needed to consider it appropriate for a person to move or be moved to assisted living or nursing home care. (I know the quality of such places can vary widely).

My parents are currently in a house that they is provided by my sister. They have moved many times the past 50 years, so there is no “home” place. My mom is having and causing issues because she is refusing appropriate care to come to her in her home. (Example: I am the only one that she will allow to help her bathe and I live 12+ hours away. Washing only every 3-6 months is not okay). She puts demands on my dad that are physically and mentally wearing him down. He will have a much better and probably longer life if they move to assisted living, but she does not want to go (he would move today if she would agree). At some point she will be “forced” to move, but the big question is when.

Edited March 27, 2021 by City Mouse

[katilac]

18 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

After reading Janeway’s comments, I am wondering what level of care would be needed to consider it appropriate for a person to move or be moved to assisted living or nursing home care. (I know the quality of such places can vary widely).

My parents are currently in a house that they is provided by my sister. They have moved many times the past 50 years, so there is no “home” place. My mom is having and causing issues because she is refusing appropriate care to come to her in her home. (Example: I am the only one that she will allow to help her bathe and I live 12+ hours away. Washing only every 3-6 months is not okay). She puts demands on my dad that are physically and mentally wearing him down. He will have a much better and probably longer life if they move to assisted living, but she does not eat to go (he would move today if she would agree). At some point she will be “forced” to move, but the big question is when.

Has she been evaluated for depression/anxiety? This can initially be done by her primary, it doesn't have to be a big, obvious deal, and someone can call the doctor's office and give them a head's up that it's needed (they can't talk to anyone about her care unless specified, but you can call them and say stuff).

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

After reading Janeway’s comments, I am wondering what level of care would be needed to consider it appropriate for a person to move or be moved to assisted living or nursing home care. (I know the quality of such places can vary widely).

My parents are currently in a house that they is provided by my sister. They have moved many times the past 50 years, so there is no “home” place. My mom is having and causing issues because she is refusing appropriate care to come to her in her home. (Example: I am the only one that she will allow to help her bathe and I live 12+ hours away. Washing only every 3-6 months is not okay). She puts demands on my dad that are physically and mentally wearing him down. He will have a much better and probably longer life if they move to assisted living, but she does not eat to go (he would move today if she would agree). At some point she will be “forced” to move, but the big question is when.

This is a great example of how it is usually not cut and dried.  And I wish I had the answer to it.  I dread things like this with my parents.  My mom just turned 76 and is in excellent health.  When she and my dad lived with us for 6 weeks after their accident she let/wanted  me to help her bathe.  It was very difficult because she was injured and had multiple places that could not get wet and she couldn't use her one hand at all.  Certainly it was not a situation that would be long term sustainable.  

If my dad dies first I just don't know what will happen.  He is 82 and in good health also, but statistically he is likely to go first.  They have a half acre yard and a 2000 sf house and a huge shop full of stuff.  He does all of the yard work.  That would definitely have to be hired out.  In fact I hope they do that this year, or at least part of it.

The issue I had with mom was her being so unreasonable about me doing things for her. It is hard to explain and it is possible the drugs she was on were affecting her.  I was working on insurance claim stuff and I was having trouble logging on to something....and she kept saying, 'what are you doing, what is the password, let me, let me, maybe I can do it.'  And I said, 'mom, I just need a minute to figure this out.'  And I said it kindly.  She blew up.  Told me I was HELPING her not TAKING OVER.  I started to cry.  And I told her I was doing the best I could, but that I just needed a minute to think.  After that she was much  better and has let me help her with all of this claims stuff.  

She kind of did the same thing with her appointments to the doctors.  At one point, she snatched the appointment card from the clerk and I just let it go.  A few weeks later she was asking me when her next appointment was.  I said, "I don't know mom, you have the appointment card."  Of course she couldn't find it.  So I asked her if she wanted me to call and find out the date.  She said yes.  After that she has not taken anymore cards away from me.  🙂

As far as my dad.....if mom goes first there will be a huge issue I think. I hope not.  But I figure he will want to stay put and  my sister will want him to come to where she is 2000 miles away.  In fact she is planning that the new house she is building will have a bedroom for him if that is needed.  He is my step dad and she is my step sister....so she is his only living bio child.  In that area where she lives he has 4 grand children and 5 great grandchildren.  It really makes sense he would go there, but I know it will be very difficult for him emotionally.  

Life is hard!

[DoraBora]

21 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

After reading Janeway’s comments, I am wondering what level of care would be needed to consider it appropriate for a person to move or be moved to assisted living or nursing home care. (I know the quality of such places can vary widely).

My parents are currently in a house that they is provided by my sister. They have moved many times the past 50 years, so there is no “home” place. My mom is having and causing issues because she is refusing appropriate care to come to her in her home. (Example: I am the only one that she will allow to help her bathe and I live 12+ hours away. Washing only every 3-6 months is not okay). She puts demands on my dad that are physically and mentally wearing him down. He will have a much better and probably longer life if they move to assisted living, but she does not eat to go (he would move today if she would agree). At some point she will be “forced” to move, but the big question is when.

@City Mouse, I don't want to derail this thread, but has anyone tried those disposable bath cloths with your mom?  Could she use them herself?  They are usually rinse-free and can be a good alternative in this situation (which is unfortunately common).  I've known several people whose bath-resistant parents have been willing to use them, particularly if the cloths are warmed slightly. 

Also, can your parents afford some in-home help -- not to help your mom but to ease the load on your dad?
 

[marbel]

44 minutes ago, katilac said:

Has she been evaluated for depression/anxiety? This can initially be done by her primary, it doesn't have to be a big, obvious deal, and someone can call the doctor's office and give them a head's up that it's needed (they can't talk to anyone about her care unless specified, but you can call them and say stuff).

This! When my father was dying of alcoholism (so body and brain were affected)  and would not let anyone accompany him into his medical appointments (so no one knew what was being said), I wrote many letters to the doctor to give my observations of his behavior/health. Later, when I was finally able to talk to him, he said it was helpful to get that insight. I have done with with other family members as well, though not to such a great extent. 

[mlktwins]

9 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

@City Mouse, I don't want to derail this thread, but has anyone tried those disposable bath cloths with your mom?  Could she use them herself?  They are usually rinse-free and can be a good alternative in this situation (which is unfortunately common).  I've known several people whose bath-resistant parents have been willing to use them, particularly if the cloths are warmed slightly. 

 

Not to derail either, but is there a specific brand you recommend?  DH and sis sister are doing sponge baths for their parents now (in the last week and a half) as things are quite the mess (won't go into details).  But...would these be a better alternative than sponge baths?  I did not know these existed!

Another example of not waiting until a crisis occurs, and you are 94, to decide it is time to go to Assisted Living or have care come in.  Right in the middle of medical crisis when there is little time to figure all this out.  So eye opening :-(.

[Jaybee]

Something I see mentioned on so many of these type threads is home health workers. That situation is not always so easy. We live far away, but when my ILs started needing 24 hr. help, BILs had so much trouble finding and keeping people. They needed three shifts of dependable, kind, firm, honest people. Nobody in the family was able to take FIL and MIL into their own homes due to a variety of circumstances (work, space, grandchildren's care, ability to lift, lack of handicap accessibility, etc.). Even then, in-home help would have been required. Oh, the drama (with the help). Stealing small items, griping about the other worker's work/schedules/etc., smoking, lack of care, meanness, bringing boyfriends or their children, and so on. This was in a small town where home care companies were non-existent. It was a mess, and was a constant stressor to the local BILs, who were always having to run over to the house to handle issues--while they had their own full-time jobs to do. Theoretically, it sounds like a good idea, and sometimes can be the perfect solution. But finding and keeping good workers can be challenging.

[Scarlett]

23 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

@City Mouse, I don't want to derail this thread, but has anyone tried those disposable bath cloths with your mom?  Could she use them herself?  They are usually rinse-free and can be a good alternative in this situation (which is unfortunately common).  I've known several people whose bath-resistant parents have been willing to use them, particularly if the cloths are warmed slightly. 

Also, can your parents afford some in-home help -- not to help your mom but to ease the load on your dad?
 

 

10 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Not to derail either, but is there a specific brand you recommend?  DH and sis sister are doing sponge baths for their parents now (in the last week and a half) as things are quite the mess (won't go into details).  But...would these be a better alternative than sponge baths?  I did not know these existed!

Another example of not waiting until a crisis occurs, and you are 94, to decide it is time to go to Assisted Living or have care come in.  Right in the middle of medical crisis when there is little time to figure all this out.  So eye opening :-(.

This is not derailing.  Feel free to discuss this stuff.  I am sure many of us find it helpful.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Jaybee said:

Something I see mentioned on so many of these type threads is home health workers. That situation is not always so easy. We live far away, but when my ILs started needing 24 hr. help, BILs had so much trouble finding and keeping people. They needed three shifts of dependable, kind, firm, honest people. Nobody in the family was able to take FIL and MIL into their own homes due to a variety of circumstances (work, space, grandchildren's care, ability to lift, lack of handicap accessibility, etc.). Even then, in-home help would have been required. Oh, the drama (with the help). Stealing small items, griping about the other worker's work/schedules/etc., smoking, lack of care, meanness, bringing boyfriends or their children, and so on. This was in a small town where home care companies were non-existent. It was a mess, and was a constant stressor to the local BILs, who were always having to run over to the house to handle issues--while they had their own full-time jobs to do. Theoretically, it sounds like a good idea, and sometimes can be the perfect solution. But finding and keeping good workers can be challenging.

Agreed!  My poor MIL had access to VA and a private firm but the help was often flakey and annoying.  I don't recall any instance of suspected theft, but my MIL was almost always there and she is completely able to monitor that sort of thing. 

[DoraBora]

14 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Not to derail either, but is there a specific brand you recommend?  DH and sis sister are doing sponge baths for their parents now (in the last week and a half) as things are quite the mess (won't go into details).  But...would these be a better alternative than sponge baths?  I did not know these existed!

Here's a specific brand I had heard of:

https://www.amazon.com/Comfort-Bath-Cleansing-Washcloths-Pack/dp/B00TE93U2I/ref=asc_df_B00TE93U2I/?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=&hvpos=&hvnetw=o&hvrand=&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583657821802502&psc=1

[HS Mom in NC]

You can't deal with reality effectively until you take a cold, hard, objective look at it and plan accordingly.  Think about your parents and yourself in caregiver and elder dependent situations-it's part of being an adult.  Children and adolescents ignore reality and engage in magical thinking. 

Issues that complicate things for people who would like to care for their elderly parents themselves:

Sometimes elders have more cognitive challenges than they realize, so they're not always the best at evaluating when they need to be moved into a care facility. Adult children are morally obligated to provide or find care that meets their parents' needs, even when the parent isn't capable of recognizing their level of need.

Elders delaying moving into care facilities until they're in medical crisis deny themselves the opportunity to develop familiarity with and relationships in the facility, which makes the transition far more difficult. They also deny themselves decision making about which facilities they prefer because some take a while to get into. 

Some elders have wildly unrealistic expectations about end of life issues because their only personal experience with care for an elder was at a time when medical intervention and preventive testing and care were far more limited and sometimes non-existent. Their elders died much more quickly of catastrophic issues: massive heart attack, massive stroke, untreatable cancer, etc.  Now the long dwindle is the norm. Looking back to yesteryear isn't the responsible thing to do-looking at the current situation is. 

Adult children have been delaying childbearing so more are sandwiched between caring for young children and elders. There's nothing on the horizon to indicate that's going to change. Elders aren't the only factor in the equation, so are the needs of dependent children-that means some elders will have to be in facilities before they're in an urgent medical condition requiring professional help.

Families are getting smaller and divorce is very common.  That means fewer adult children and more separate households for their parents.  Only children of divorced parents are outnumbered-the exact opposite of current elders whose elderly parents/grandparents were living in the same household and had more siblings to divide the caregiving between them. That means going into care, on the whole, will happen earlier than many elders expect.

Many people are living in different locations than their elderly parents and their siblings. Usually economic opportunity causes that, so the idea that adult children can come by and handle necessary non-medical caregiving is far less common.  Hired help is expensive and the pay in home caregivers receive isn't a living wage, so turn over is high and most people who can avoid that line of work do.  As the population ages, it will be increasing difficult to find in home caregivers which is already a problem in many areas with high retiree populations.  Nothing is on the horizon that is going to change that.

More households than ever are two income out of necessity as inflation and cost of living are rising. That includes emptynesters who will have far fewer hours in their week to devote to hands on eldercare with elder dependents living with them or living nearby.  That results in more elders going into care earlier than their medical issues demand. 

The obesity crisis in the industrialized world is creating more mobility issues at higher rates and earlier than they would've been otherwise.  Trained medical staff and equipment are the solution and not something available in home.  Unless an elder is careful about diet and exercise, this is going to be a huge factor in quality of life for more and more people.

 

[mlktwins]

8 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Something I see mentioned on so many of these type threads is home health workers. That situation is not always so easy. We live far away, but when my ILs started needing 24 hr. help, BILs had so much trouble finding and keeping people. They needed three shifts of dependable, kind, firm, honest people. Nobody in the family was able to take FIL and MIL into their own homes due to a variety of circumstances (work, space, grandchildren's care, ability to lift, lack of handicap accessibility, etc.). Even then, in-home help would have been required. Oh, the drama (with the help). Stealing small items, griping about the other worker's work/schedules/etc., smoking, lack of care, meanness, bringing boyfriends or their children, and so on. This was in a small town where home care companies were non-existent. It was a mess, and was a constant stressor to the local BILs, who were always having to run over to the house to handle issues--while they had their own full-time jobs to do. Theoretically, it sounds like a good idea, and sometimes can be the perfect solution. But finding and keeping good workers can be challenging.

Yes, this is definitely a worry here at the moment.  My ILs want AL, we think they are past that point and would need a nursing home.  OR...in home care.  We have a lot of options available here for all 3, but I had someone help with my dad for a couple of months and that was a lot of work and stress on me.  While I didn't have to drive to and from his house in rush hour everyday, I spent a lot of time dealing with the provider.

[DoraBora]

8 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Something I see mentioned on so many of these type threads is home health workers. That situation is not always so easy. We live far away, but when my ILs started needing 24 hr. help, BILs had so much trouble finding and keeping people. They needed three shifts of dependable, kind, firm, honest people. Nobody in the family was able to take FIL and MIL into their own homes due to a variety of circumstances (work, space, grandchildren's care, ability to lift, lack of handicap accessibility, etc.). Even then, in-home help would have been required. Oh, the drama (with the help). Stealing small items, griping about the other worker's work/schedules/etc., smoking, lack of care, meanness, bringing boyfriends or their children, and so on. This was in a small town where home care companies were non-existent. It was a mess, and was a constant stressor to the local BILs, who were always having to run over to the house to handle issues--while they had their own full-time jobs to do. Theoretically, it sounds like a good idea, and sometimes can be the perfect solution. But finding and keeping good workers can be challenging.

You make an excellent point.  Even in urban areas with lots of agencies, employee turnover is high.  The agencies will charge maybe $30-ish per hour, often with a four hour minimum, but the workers themselves usually don't make much.  I have heard of people who have had better success finding home-help through word of mouth and paying those workers themselves more money.  It's just not easy to find reliable people to help at home, but if an elder absolutely refuses to leave the house, it's one (often less than ideal) solution.

 

[Laura Corin]

I am keeping in mind this kind of scheme for the future.  It's kind of an au pair/room mate for old people.  It's not nursing care, but it might bridge a gap:

https://homeshareuk.org/

[Scarlett]

14 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

You can't deal with reality effectively until you take a cold, hard, objective look at it and plan accordingly.  Think about your parents and yourself in caregiver and elder dependent situations-it's part of being an adult.  Children and adolescents ignore reality and engage in magical thinking. 

Issues that complicate things for people who would like to care for their elderly parents themselves:

Sometimes elders have more cognitive challenges than they realize, so they're not always the best at evaluating when they need to be moved into a care facility. Adult children are morally obligated to provide or find care that meets their parents' needs, even when the parent isn't capable of recognizing their level of need.

Elders delaying moving into care facilities until they're in medical crisis deny themselves the opportunity to develop familiarity with and relationships in the facility, which makes the transition far more difficult. They also deny themselves decision making about which facilities they prefer because some take a while to get into. 

Some elders have wildly unrealistic expectations about end of life issues because their only personal experience with care for an elder was at a time when medical intervention and preventive testing and care were far more limited and sometimes non-existent. Their elders died much more quickly of catastrophic issues: massive heart attack, massive stroke, untreatable cancer, etc.  Now the long dwindle is the norm. Looking back to yesteryear isn't the responsible thing to do-looking at the current situation is. 

Adult children have been delaying childbearing so more are sandwiched between caring for young children and elders. There's nothing on the horizon to indicate that's going to change. Elders aren't the only factor in the equation, so are the needs of dependent children-that means some elders will have to be in facilities before they're in an urgent medical condition requiring professional help.

Families are getting smaller and divorce is very common.  That means fewer adult children and more separate households for their parents.  Only children of divorced parents are outnumbered-the exact opposite of current elders whose elderly parents/grandparents were living in the same household and had more siblings to divide the caregiving between them. That means going into care, on the whole, will happen earlier than many elders expect.

Many people are living in different locations than their elderly parents and their siblings. Usually economic opportunity causes that, so the idea that adult children can come by and handle necessary non-medical caregiving is far less common.  Hired help is expensive and the pay in home caregivers receive isn't a living wage, so turn over is high and most people who can avoid that line of work do.  As the population ages, it will be increasing difficult to find in home caregivers which is already a problem in many areas with high retiree populations.  Nothing is on the horizon that is going to change that.

More households than ever are two income out of necessity as inflation and cost of living are rising. That includes emptynesters who will have far fewer hours in their week to devote to hands on eldercare with elder dependents living with them or living nearby.  That results in more elders going into care earlier than their medical issues demand. 

The obesity crisis in the industrialized world is creating more mobility issues at higher rates and earlier than they would've been otherwise.  Trained medical staff and equipment are the solution and not something available in home.  Unless an elder is careful about diet and exercise, this is going to be a huge factor in quality of life for more and more people.

 

This is our situation.  Ds and his wife are  both only children.  And my DIL's mother is a train wreck.  She is single.  So I expect a lot of their energy at some point to go toward her.  At least she is 15 years younger than I am.  

[Harriet Vane]

34 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

Something I see mentioned on so many of these type threads is home health workers. That situation is not always so easy. We live far away, but when my ILs started needing 24 hr. help, BILs had so much trouble finding and keeping people. They needed three shifts of dependable, kind, firm, honest people. Nobody in the family was able to take FIL and MIL into their own homes due to a variety of circumstances (work, space, grandchildren's care, ability to lift, lack of handicap accessibility, etc.). Even then, in-home help would have been required. Oh, the drama (with the help). Stealing small items, griping about the other worker's work/schedules/etc., smoking, lack of care, meanness, bringing boyfriends or their children, and so on. This was in a small town where home care companies were non-existent. It was a mess, and was a constant stressor to the local BILs, who were always having to run over to the house to handle issues--while they had their own full-time jobs to do. Theoretically, it sounds like a good idea, and sometimes can be the perfect solution. But finding and keeping good workers can be challenging.

YES.
 

We had an in-home service for months for fil. Our first helper was wonderful but she left the company. Then we had a dreary string of awful helpers, all of whom wanted to sit still and play on their phones or watch TV despite the fact that they were clearly supposed to help with cleaning and laundry. The cleaning they did do was often poorly done, and one person would not let fil get up out of his chair at all. (!!!) 

The one we ended with we really loved, mostly because of her sweet rapport for fil. She was GREAT at all the fil hands-on care. She was not so great at household tasks but she did them willingly, so we muddled along just grateful to have someone we could trust. But her hours were limited, so we were mostly on our own still.

We desperately needed a night nurse as fil woke repeatedly through the night, but could not deal with the awful helpers. It was easier to do the work ourselves rather than have someone we could not trust to be kind and patient with fil.

Good help is hard to find.

[Melissa in Australia]

You could always do what my grandmother did, marry someone 30 years younger than her

 

Though her own children were a bit miffed at having a stepdad younger than them. And all of us grandchildren only ever referred to him as nan's partner

[Melissa in Australia]

Or do like my DH, marry someone 13 years younger. I will be able to look after him when he gets old. 😅😁

[Bootsie]

39 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Or do like my DH, marry someone 13 years younger. I will be able to look after him when he gets old. 😅😁

My DH is 13 years older than I am, also--although when he looks at our family medical histories, he is convinced he will outlive me by at least a decade.

[Melissa in Australia]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

My DH is 13 years older than I am, also--although when he looks at our family medical histories, he is convinced he will outlive me by at least a decade.

I am thinking dh and I might pop off around the same time. His mother us still  going strong at 99, my grandmother died last year at 89

[City Mouse]

On 3/26/2021 at 7:46 AM, katilac said:

Has she been evaluated for depression/anxiety? This can initially be done by her primary, it doesn't have to be a big, obvious deal, and someone can call the doctor's office and give them a head's up that it's needed (they can't talk to anyone about her care unless specified, but you can call them and say stuff).

I am sure she has both depression and anxiety. However, she will not agree and has refused treatment for both in the past.

[City Mouse]

23 hours ago, DoraBora said:

@City Mouse, I don't want to derail this thread, but has anyone tried those disposable bath cloths with your mom?  Could she use them herself?  They are usually rinse-free and can be a good alternative in this situation (which is unfortunately common).  I've known several people whose bath-resistant parents have been willing to use them, particularly if the cloths are warmed slightly. 

Also, can your parents afford some in-home help -- not to help your mom but to ease the load on your dad?
 

She already uses the disposable wipes which work on the areas she can reach, but she can reach a very limited area. She does have some in-home help. The lady was specifically hired to help her with such tasks, but mom won’t let her. The closest she gets is allowing her helper to occasionally wash her feet.

[lynn]

Longevity is in the genes for Dh and I.  We planned accordingly and we will be okay.  I am hoping to live within  a couple of hours to my kids.  My husband  and I plan to travel more once baby girl graduates in 3 years.  My sister and I are also planning a few trips when she retires.

Edited March 27, 2021 by lynn

[DoraBora]

3 hours ago, City Mouse said:

She already uses the disposable wipes which work on the areas she can reach, but she can reach a very limited area. She does have some in-home help. The lady was specifically hired to help her with such tasks, but mom won’t let her. The closest she gets is allowing her helper to occasionally wash her feet.

Regarding the in-home help, I really meant help for your dad - and not necessarily home health - to ease his load, since you said you are worried that he's doing too much.  But it may be that the burden he's carrying involves providing hands-on care for her, so in-home help wouldn't be much help at all.

You've probably already thought of all this.  It's just not easy, and I'm sorry.

[Resilient]

On 3/26/2021 at 8:19 AM, Laura Corin said:

I am keeping in mind this kind of scheme for the future.  It's kind of an au pair/room mate for old people.  It's not nursing care, but it might bridge a gap:

https://homeshareuk.org/

Reading through this thread has been interesting. Having dealt with two generations of elder-care, still doing so to a lesser degree, with multiple scenarios of financial ability and stability, cooperation and stubbornness, help or lack of help from siblings, all I can say is this: Man proposes; God laughs. 

"I'll just get in-home health care!"  Do you know how much work that is, even to GET it? the phone calls required to schedule it and the follow-up reports? and the costs? and how it can be really good--or really bad? We got in-home care for our elder, but one of us was always there while the caregiver came by. The elders involved couldn't track that well about the meds and was nervous to have a stranger in the house. Being asked personal questions again and again makes the elder fractious and sometimes they just make stuff up.  "Getting in home care" for the elder living somewhere else was a half-time job, and to a large degree, thankless.

"We'll just have elder move in with us." Great plan, but make sure you have the house to do so.  It flat out could not happen for us.

"I refuse to go to assisted living." Take a look at this real situation and decide which is better:  Extraverted elder sits at home, alone, all day, unable to cook or do personal care or work the TV or go outside to get the mail while the almost-elder adult is at work. Elder is increasingly depressed because of loneliness. (Care-giving adult child must work; quitting is not an option.)  OR Elder moves to assisted living where there are others around to talk to, to eat with, where people have eyes on her, where she can have help with personal care and food prep, and where she can have visitors. Which is the greater "abandonment?" (COVID lockdowns have prevented the latter option from happening...but when visitors are allowed it will become an option again.) Which is better?

The realities are these:

• Having money gives you a lot more choices and flexibility.  Thank God for MedicAid. The medical care the elder received under MedicAid is better than I get...but the living choices are extremely restricted.  
• You aren't going to be old as the person you are now. Progosticating about what your future looks like or how you will respond to it is somewhat futile. 

My own plans are these:

• Establish substantial financial resources.
• Own a house/condo that has space for live-in, paid, companion-level assistance.  
• Focus on my own character so I am not that person--the one who makes everyone else miserable, guilty, frustrated, overworked or sad.  Learn to be content, learn to be thankful. 
• Meet the days as they come, not as I expect them to be.
• Stay as connected and as capable as I can for as long as I can. This includes staying stable at our church community and it also means continuing to learn, to manage the use of technology.  It also means asking for help when I am slower on the uptake.

Being Mortal is a must-read. It makes you aware that you are not exempt from the effects of aging. It will have an impact on how you write your wills, save your money, talk to your children, etc.  

[mlktwins]

4 hours ago, Resilient said:

"I'll just get in-home health care!"  Do you know how much work that is, even to GET it? the phone calls required to schedule it and the follow-up reports? and the costs? and how it can be really good--or really bad? We got in-home care for our elder, but one of us was always there while the caregiver came by. The elders involved couldn't track that well about the meds and was nervous to have a stranger in the house. Being asked personal questions again and again makes the elder fractious and sometimes they just make stuff up.  "Getting in home care" for the elder living somewhere else was a half-time job, and to a large degree, thankless.

Being Mortal is a must-read. It makes you aware that you are not exempt from the effects of aging. It will have an impact on how you write your wills, save your money, talk to your children, etc.  

So...we are in the middle of a medical crisis with both my in-laws who are at home.  Not sure how much longer FIL has and MIL is not able to walk anymore - just in the last week.  My DH spent HOURS on the phone with home health care today -- just the first of many, many calls to come.  And...the cost 😱!  Medicare will pay for some of the skilled nursing care, but I need to find out what the cap is on that.  Also, have to call their other health insurance to see what they will cover.  Medicare does not cover ANY personal care help.  None!  And..that is the $35 an hour type of thing.  Oh my word!!!  And...we will still need to be very involved with their care.

And the long term care insurance they've been paying for, should they need it, will not pay very much of the daily bill in an assisted living or nursing home.  PSA:  If your parents have long term care insurance, please try and become familiar with the policy and what it does pay for so you are not trying to figure it out in a crisis situation.  So many lessons learned in the past couple of years.  Oh my word!

Yes, Being Mortal is a must read!!  And...one night my son couldn't sleep, and we were out of new library books at the time, so he read it -- LOL.  Said it was kind of eye opening!  I guess so as he was 13 at the time.   

ETA:  Fixed Being Moral to Being Mortal 🤣!

Edited March 28, 2021 by mlktwins

[WildflowerMom]

I plan to forgo certain testing, procedures, and some medications at a certain age.  I've also made sure ds knows to put me in a home as soon as it's hard on him and don't think twice about it.   I've told him to visit me randomly so the staff knows he could pop in at anytime.    I refuse to be a burden.   And he is definitely a mama's boy and would go to great lengths to keep me in my (or his) home, so I really made it clear to him that I don't want that.   
I'm trying to get healthier.   I just got an elliptical and am also trying to build up my core so that I can get around decently as I age.   
Financially, I think we'll be ok.   We have a pension, 401k, and our house will be paid off years before retirement.   It's also a very small house, so very manageable to take care of.   We also live in an ideal town for retirement.   I think that's as important as everything else, tbh.  Right now our small town has everything we'd need to live a decent life as we age, including transport if we can't drive, an active senior center, and a great food pantry and meal delivery for low-income seniors.