Thank you. I have my answer.

[Tap]

Thank you for your suggestions and advice.  There will never been a consensuses on this topic and I was only asking about homemade dog food. 

I deal with enough people arguing in my real life, that I don't need to see it here over a simple dog food question.  I requested this thread deleted. 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Tap

[Tanaqui]

Dogs lived for a very long time without commercial pet foods. However, I'd run your recipe by your vet just in case there is something that you're missing. (I am wary of pet food recipes online. All those sites seem to veer very sharply from "here's how to feed your pet!" into conspiracy theories and woo. They're probably okay on the recipe front, nutrition-wise, but I just can't quite make myself trust them.)

[Tap]

2 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Dogs lived for a very long time without commercial pet foods. However, I'd run your recipe by your vet just in case there is something that you're missing. (I am wary of pet food recipes online. All those sites seem to veer very sharply from "here's how to feed your pet!" into conspiracy theories and woo. They're probably okay on the recipe front, nutrition-wise, but I just can't quite make myself trust them.)

LOL I agree. I just blended a bunch of recipes together. My vet isn't someone I feel comfortable with yet. I took the dog for a 1st appointment and vax this summer. It was a drop off/pick up situation (due to Covid) with a quick phone call with the vet that felt very, very rushed. I had to stop her a few times from hanging up to answer my questions. I made the appointment with one vet who had great recommendations, and they switched to this one without telling me. It sounds like this is common at this clinic. I called a few other clinics, but they were either very, very expensive....or not taking new patients.  Just for perspective we did a first appointment, all vaccines, a stool test and then another vaccine a month later. It was $400. The other vets were more :(. 

[Lori D.]

When our previous dog (my avatar) developed colitis late in life, after having always been on dry kibble, we had to make his food. We did a blend of:
   1/2 cooked chicken
+ 1/4 cooked rice
+ 1/4 equal mix of sweet potatoes & green beans

The colitis meant we had to keep his diet very plain and simple, with chicken and rice. It brought back a lot of life and energy to our dog, and he only had one other colitis flair while on this diet. He lived another 2 years just on this diet, and passed away of cancer that was totally unrelated to digestive issues or food. He was 13yo, and the average for his breed was 10yo, because flat coat retrievers have such a high incidence of cancer -- so we helped him beat the average by quite a lot, and made his last 2 years much happier.

I would cook boneless chicken breasts in a big pot of water until shreddable; then use some of that broth-water to cook up the rice. And I peeled and cubed up the sweet potatoes into 1/2" cubes and cut up the green beans and steamed them. I measured out the amounts by weight with a kitchen scale, and put the mix into individual containers and kept some in the fridge, and froze the rest.

At most, my fridge/freezer could hold 4 weeks of dog meals (2 meals/day). It was always a major undertaking and took several hours. I was unable to figure out out to make it less work, without buying MUCH MUCH more expensive pre-cooked rice or chicken. ::shrug:: So, we did what we had to.

Our dog did very well on this diet, with no supplements, other than his usual fish oil gel caps 2x/day. I found this recipe (or ones very similar to it) on several websites, which is why I went with it.

This web article also had a formula for figuring out how many grams of protein to grams of filler you needed per day based on the dog's weight.

This website lists ingredients you can use for creating your own dog food.

Here is another recipe I considered, but never ended up trying.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Lori D.

[itsheresomewhere]

Add some organ meat to the mix. They need the organ meat for optimal health.  Liver is a good one.  We have done it for years and our dogs are very healthy.  My vet supports this and is very happy with their health. 

[Pawz4me]

 I've home cooked for dogs for years. Sometimes all the time, sometimes on/off or a mix of home cooked and commercial.

Unless your dog is eating at least 50 percent of her daily calories in kibble/commercial food then I'd strongly consider adding some calcium to your home cooked meals. The DogAware and WDJ websites that @Lori D.linked to are very reliable and aren't the "woo" type that @Tanaquirightly warned about. I've always followed the general calcium guideline given by DogAware (1000-2000 mg. calcium per pound of home cooked food). I also agree with @itsheresomewherethat you need to add in a bit of organ meat.

Again--If she's eating at least 50 percent kibble/commercial you don't need to worry nearly as much about calcium and organ meat as you do if she's eating less than that.

For older dogs, or when someone anticipates home cooking for a limited period of time, I don't worry much about things like calcium or organ meat. It takes a very long time for nutritional deficiencies to develop. But at only two years old, and if you plan on continuing -- I'd want to add those simple things to get her nutrients at or close to where they should be. I'm also a huge believer in variety, so I'd switch up -- use beef instead of chicken sometimes, different veggies and carb sources. I'd consider adding in some fish, like a can of jack mackeral in addition to or in place of some of the meat.

FWIW--I like Freshpet. It makes up a portion of my dogs' food. Everything I've read about the company and their quality control has been reassuring, but I did worry about the recent shortage. Apparently it's being blamed on Covid related staffing shortages and booming demand due to people getting pandemic pets. Purina has had some supply issues, too.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Carrie12345]

I *want to home cook my dog food, but I worry so much about my ability to be precise in every single serving. He has access to 7oz food/day, and doesn’t always finish it! (He’s 3.5lbs.) But he certainly does like human food more than commercial dog food, so I feel bad for not trying harder.

[Pawz4me]

31 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I *want to home cook my dog food, but I worry so much about my ability to be precise in every single serving. He has access to 7oz food/day, and doesn’t always finish it! (He’s 3.5lbs.) But he certainly does like human food more than commercial dog food, so I feel bad for not trying harder.

What do you mean by "precise in every single serving"? And why would you need to be?

[Carrie12345]

12 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

What do you mean by "precise in every single serving"? And why would you need to be?

I worry that, in such small quantities (3.5oz/meal), something not near-perfectly mixed could mean meals that vary widely. But I’m also known for being terrified of doing anything to hurt a dog who wasn’t expected to stay so tiny and vulnerable, lol.

[Pawz4me]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I worry that, in such small quantities (3.5oz/meal), something not near-perfectly mixed could mean meals that vary widely. But I’m also known for being terrified of doing anything to hurt a dog who wasn’t expected to stay so tiny and vulnerable, lol.

You could mix some home cooked in with whatever you're currently feeding him.

Another way of considering things is that the most well balanced food available doesn't do any good if he isn't eating it (you said he doesn't always finish what you're giving him now).

[BeachGal]

poof!

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by BeachGal

[Pawz4me]

nm

Edited March 18, 2021 by Pawz4me

[BeachGal]

poof!

Edited March 18, 2021 by BeachGal

[Pawz4me]

2 hours ago, BeachGal said:

 

 

Most raw feeders use a LOT more meat and less veg/carbs than most home cookers, most raw feeders include bone (either whole or ground) and most home cookers don't (except some use bone meal as a calcium source), and most raw feeders don't supplement to the extent that most home cookers do. Most raw feeders are somewhere from moderately to adamantly anti-carbs/grains in the diet. Most home cookers are not.

Off the top of my not-yet-fully-caffeinated head those are the major differences. They're fairly significant.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Selkie]

3 hours ago, BeachGal said:

 

Most vets do not recommend raw diets because of the potential for serious illness or death caused by bacteria or parasites in raw meat. Choking on bones or internal punctures from bones are also concerns.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Selkie

[ktgrok]

At quick glance that's a lot of carbs compared to meat....you've got 1 part meat to 1 part beans, 1 part rice, 1 part potatoes, 1 part veggies. That makes meat at most 1/5th of the food, and that's not much compared to most recipes. I'd pick - rice or potatoes, and drop the beans. Beans are hard to digest and may interfere with absorption of carnitine. And limit the veggies to 1/3 or less. 

Most ratios are 1 part meat, 1 part starch, 1 part or less veggies/fruit...or the above referenced 50% meat, 25% starch, 25% fruit/veggies. Doesn't ahve to be exact, but those are both better ratios than what you've got going on. 

And yes, 1,000mg calcium per pound of food, approximately. Doesn't have to be exact. Dogs in the wild/wolves/etc would eat bone with the meat. To replicate that add calcium - you can get powdered stuff online cheaply...I think the one I have is from seaweed. As for organ meat, if feeding a decent amount of kibble I wouldn't worry, but if mostly homemade I'd add a small amount of liver or a multivitamin preparation. 

[BeachGal]

58 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Most raw feeders use a LOT more meat and less veg/carbs than most home cookers, most raw feeders include bone (either whole or ground) and most home cookers don't (except some use bone meal as a calcium source), and most raw feeders don't supplement to the extent that most home cookers do. Most raw feeders are somewhere from moderately to adamantly anti-carbs/grains in the diet. Most home cookers are not.

Off the top of my not-yet-fully-caffeinated head those are the major differences. They're fairly significant.

And honestly -- the two sides can often get into heated debates. Pet feeding is often a hot topic, and threads can go off the rails pretty quickly. I'd hate to see this one go the way that several others have, when some posters have gotten very strident and unrelenting about their way being the ONE right way. (There is no ONE right way.)

Ah, well, not trying to derail or create havoc. I’m all for many methods of feeding. I will delete my earlier posts.

 

ETA Those of you who quoted me, would you please delete what I said so the thread can carry on without controversy. Thank you. ☺️

Edited March 18, 2021 by BeachGal

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

Ah, well, not trying to derail or create havoc. I’m all for many methods of feeding. I will delete my earlier posts.

I think we are all just bracing for when Spy Car, bless him, shows up to tell us all we are doing it wrong and abusing our dogs feeding them kibble 🙂

[Tap]

34 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

At quick glance that's a lot of carbs compared to meat....you've got 1 part meat to 1 part beans, 1 part rice, 1 part potatoes, 1 part veggies. That makes meat at most 1/5th of the food, and that's not much compared to most recipes. I'd pick - rice or potatoes, and drop the beans. Beans are hard to digest and may interfere with absorption of carnitine. And limit the veggies to 1/3 or less. 

Most ratios are 1 part meat, 1 part starch, 1 part or less veggies/fruit...or the above referenced 50% meat, 25% starch, 25% fruit/veggies. Doesn't ahve to be exact, but those are both better ratios than what you've got going on. 

And yes, 1,000mg calcium per pound of food, approximately. Doesn't have to be exact. Dogs in the wild/wolves/etc would eat bone with the meat. To replicate that add calcium - you can get powdered stuff online cheaply...I think the one I have is from seaweed. As for organ meat, if feeding a decent amount of kibble I wouldn't worry, but if mostly homemade I'd add a small amount of liver or a multivitamin preparation. 

The ratio is a little different because some ingredients were given in pounds and the others in cups. Here it is again in all lbs. I was under the impression that beans would give some proteins as well (not like meat but some protein). Is that not right? I can add organ meat chunks when I add in the daily left overs. As for calcium...what type of calcium? When I look online, the calcium marketed towards dogs is very expensive and since she still eats kibble the rest of the day, I didn't want to overload her. 

10lb boneless skinless chicken thighs (baked)

2.5lb brown rice

3.75 lbs mixed beans (made from dry beans)

3.75 lbs mixed veggies 

1 cup coconut oil

1 cup olive oil

10lbs potato

5 lb sweet potato

Chicken broth

 

ETA: thanks for everyones advice. I really hate to put all this work and money into it, and be feeding her poorly.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Tap

[ktgrok]

Beans do have protein, but less digestible, and there is concern that too much fiber may prevent adequate absorption of some nutrients in dogs - the foods linked to cardiomyopathy in dogs were high fiber, high legume foods. 

I'd also do white rice, not brown. Again, digestibility and fiber reasons. 

And personally, I would do rice or potato not both, but not hugely worried about that. 

This is the calcium I use when I make food - it is labeled at 1tsp per pound of dog food. 

 

[Tanaqui]

Was there supposed to be a link to the calcium? I'm not seeing it, ktgrok.

[ktgrok]

Oops! https://www.chewy.com/animal-essentials-seaweed-calcium-dog/dp/49367

You can also find bone meal. 

[Spy Car]

If one is going to devise a home cooked dog menu, one must have the basic understanding of how to approximate the optimal 1.2 : 1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus, or one would be better feeding a commercial diet. The recipe above is dangerous--as is--and would suck calcium right out of a dogs bones.

Dogs don't need brown rice, mixed veggies, potatoes, or sweet potatoes--and certainly not in such high proportions to meat.

And 10 lbs of beans? Oh dear. Oh dear.

Dogs need meat. More varieties that just chicken (and don't strip the chicken skin (as that's the best part).  Some fatty meat (pork).And some red meat, like beef heart.

Fat is the optimal fuel source for dogs. Not something to strip out and replace with inordinate amounts of carbohydrates.

You should also have a variety of organs. 5% of the diet should be liver. Another 5% kidney and other secreting organs, like sweetbreads (thymus/pancreas) , or melts (spleen). Organs provide vitamins.

8 parts meat to 1 part organs (half that liver). Plus the proper amount of calcium to balance the mineral ratios in the diet.

Balancing the minerals is essential. If you can't figure that out, it is better to feed commercial food.

Bill

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I think we are all just bracing for when Spy Car, bless him, shows up to tell us all we are doing it wrong and abusing our dogs feeding them kibble 🙂

 

An utterly false characterization, BTW.

It's beneath you.

Bill

[Tap]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

If one is going to devise a home cooked dog menu, one must have the basic understanding of how to approximate the optimal 1.2 : 1 ratio of Calcium to Phosphorus, or one would be better feeding a commercial diet. The recipe above is dangerous--as is--and would suck calcium right out of a dogs bones.

Dogs don't need brown rice, mixed veggies, potatoes, or sweet potatoes--and certainly not in such high proportions to meat.

And 10 lbs of beans? Oh dear. Oh dear.

Dogs need meat. More varieties that just chicken (and don't strip the chicken skin (as that's the best part).  Some fatty meat (pork).And some red meat, like beef heart.

Fat is the optimal fuel source for dogs. Not something to strip out and replace with inordinate amounts of carbohydrates.

You should also have a variety of organs. 5% of the diet should be liver. Another 5% kidney and other secreting organs, like sweetbreads (thymus/pancreas) , or melts (spleen). Organs provide vitamins.

8 parts meat to 1 part organs (half that liver). Plus the proper amount of calcium to balance the mineral ratios in the diet.

Balancing the minerals is essential. If you can't figure that out, it is better to feed commercial food.

Bill

 

 

 

 I appreciate your feedback. I would like to learn more. What sources do you find give good information? 

[Tanaqui]

So you don't think kibble is bad? Because I'm sure I, too, remember that as your position the last time this came up.

[ktgrok]

16 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

An utterly false characterization, BTW.

It's beneath you.

Bill

The smiley face was supposed to indicate it was a tongue in cheek type comment. Hyperbole, not literal. 

[itsheresomewhere]

1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

So you don't think kibble is bad? Because I'm sure I, too, remember that as your position the last time this came up.

Same here.

 

 

[Spy Car]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

So you don't think kibble is bad? Because I'm sure I, too, remember that as your position the last time this came up.

Uh, no. The world is not black and white.

There are nuances.

You misremember.

Bill

[Tanaqui]

I do not. I remember an entire thread where you bashed anybody who fed a "species inappropriate diet" and strongly suggested that any carbs (therefore, all kibble) is bad for dogs.

That was in August 2019, and I'm looking at your posts just now.

[Tap]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I do not. I remember an entire thread where you bashed anybody who fed a "species inappropriate diet" and strongly suggested that any carbs (therefore, all kibble) is bad for dogs.

That was in August 2019, and I'm looking at your posts just now.

I appreciate your advice. But honestly, since this thread isn't about a raw diet, and the others responding are ok with kibble, it is probably best to just let it go. 

[Tap]

I have 30lbs of chicken thighs in my freezer (LOL)  , so it would be super easy to cook up  and add it daily to increase the meat. Right now she is getting 2 cups of homemade food and each portion has roughly one thigh. I can cook them up and add to the daily mix. Thanks for the advice.  I will consider if I want to continue this long term once the Freshpet comes back in stock. If so, I will definitely add the calcium supplement. 

Even if I feed 100% chicken, I can get 40lbs for $45. That by itself is cheaper than the Freshpet which averages $2+ lb here. I can add in some organ meat and beef easily and stay below the Freshpet price. I will always feed kibble for convenience and so I can leave it out all day for her to have as she desires. She tends to eat a big breakfast and then eat a meal in the evening. She is very high energy, so unless she starts to get overweight, I think it is ok for her to have the option to eat at will. Our schedule varies wildly due to sports, so keeping her on a scheduled 2 meal a day schedule isn't possible. 

She seems to have a very strong stomach. She will eat any kibble (except one so far) and scurries after anything that hits the kitchen floor. She will sit and 'ask' for more, especially if it is carrots or potatoes.  She has eaten several things that I am surprised have passed through her GI track. We don't know she has eaten it until it comes out the other end. I have found many parts of garment, socks, and hair scrunchies etc. We know she ate shatterproof glass and a few other non-food items. They seem to just pass right on through so far. 

[Spy Car]

53 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I do not. I remember an entire thread where you bashed anybody who fed a "species inappropriate diet" and strongly suggested that any carbs (therefore, all kibble) is bad for dogs.

That was in August 2019, and I'm looking at your posts just now.

I didn't bash anyone. You misremember again.

Carbohydrates are not the optimal fuel for dogs. Dogs have no essential need for carbohydrates.

Those nutrition facts are not "bashing."

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, Tap said:

I have 30lbs of chicken thighs in my freezer (LOL)  , so it would be super easy to cook up  and add it daily to increase the meat. Right now she is getting 2 cups of homemade food and each portion has roughly one thigh. I can cook them up and add to the daily mix. Thanks for the advice.  I will consider if I want to continue this long term once the Freshpet comes back in stock. If so, I will definitely add the calcium supplement. 

Even if I feed 100% chicken, I can get 40lbs for $45. That by itself is cheaper than the Freshpet which averages $2+ lb here. I can add in some organ meat and beef easily and stay below the Freshpet price. I will always feed kibble for convenience and so I can leave it out all day for her to have as she desires. She tends to eat a big breakfast and then eat a meal in the evening. She is very high energy, so unless she starts to get overweight, I think it is ok for her to have the option to eat at will. Our schedule varies wildly due to sports, so keeping her on a scheduled 2 meal a day schedule isn't possible. 

She seems to have a very strong stomach. She will eat any kibble (except one so far) and scurries after anything that hits the kitchen floor. She will sit and 'ask' for more, especially if it is carrots or potatoes.  She has eaten several things that I am surprised have passed through her GI track. We don't know she has eaten it until it comes out the other end. I have found many parts of garment, socks, and hair scrunchies etc. We know she ate shatterproof glass and a few other non-food items. They seem to just pass right on through so far. 

Suggestion: stew 4 parts bone-in chicken (like thighs) with 3 parts of pork fatty bone-in shoulder (like butt/leg/shoulder) until tender.

While stew cools very quickly cook (rare) 1 part beef heart and 1 part organs (half beef liver and half kidney). De-bone the chicken and pork. Combine with rarely cooked chopped organs and  beefheart.

Then compensate calcium to replace bone.

Bill

 

[popmom]

I have been interested in this for a number of years. 2 of my daughters have large dogs with skin issues. The pit bull has very itchy skin. She has him on a sensitive skin food, and it has helped. The other daughter has a German shepherd/lab mix who sheds unbelievably. I have wanted to do an elimination diet to see if we could get their skin issues under control that way. Also, the shepherd/lab has a voracious appetite--food obsessed. My daughter has to feed her with a slow feeder. She counter surfs, etc.  I feel like a real food diet would be more satisfying. ETA: the shepherd/lab is definitely allergic to salmon. It makes her face turn pink/red, very itchy, and she gets bald spots on her face

I haven't looked at the links yet, but I'm wondering how this affects the health of their teeth. Is it necessary to add in something extra to keep teeth clean?

Edited March 20, 2021 by popmom

[Pawz4me]

54 minutes ago, popmom said:

Is it necessary to add in something extra to keep teeth clean?

Kibble doesn't help keep their teeth clean, except (perhaps) for the "prescription" dental health foods. So feeding a home cooked diet isn't likely to be any different than feeding a commercial kibble or canned food as far as dental health.

The raw feeders swear that bones help.

There are products endorsed by the Veterinary Oral Health Council

And of course you can train them to accept brushing.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Spy Car]

3 hours ago, popmom said:

I have been interested in this for a number of years. 2 of my daughters have large dogs with skin issues. The pit bull has very itchy skin. She has him on a sensitive skin food, and it has helped. The other daughter has a German shepherd/lab mix who sheds unbelievably. I have wanted to do an elimination diet to see if we could get their skin issues under control that way. Also, the shepherd/lab has a voracious appetite--food obsessed. My daughter has to feed her with a slow feeder. She counter surfs, etc.  I feel like a real food diet would be more satisfying. ETA: the shepherd/lab is definitely allergic to salmon. It makes her face turn pink/red, very itchy, and she gets bald spots on her face

I haven't looked at the links yet, but I'm wondering how this affects the health of their teeth. Is it necessary to add in something extra to keep teeth clean?

Over 87% of dogs develop periodontal disease. It is the almost inevitable result of feeding a carbohydrate based diet. 

Some people don't want to hear that kibble-based diets have "issues," but feeding carbs is a straight line to dental disease.

A PMR style raw diet has zero carbs. As a result a dog's teeth won't rot. Typically, I feed 10% bone. I stick almost exclusively to soft edible (raw) chicken bone as part of bone-in chicken pieces. The soft bone helps scrub teeth. My Vizsla (Chester) is going to turn 7 next month. His teeth sparkle. No gum disease. Typical of PMR dogs.

Feeding animals what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on, has its upsides. Good teeth is just one of many advantages.

Bill

[Pawz4me]

21 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Over 87% of dogs develop periodontal disease. It is the almost inevitable result of feeding a carbohydrate based diet. 

Some people don't want to hear that kibble-based diets have "issues," but feeding carbs is a straight line to dental disease.

A PMR style raw diet has zero carbs. As a result a dog's teeth won't rot. Typically, I feed 10% bone. I stick almost exclusively to soft edible (raw) chicken bone as part of bone-in chicken pieces. The soft bone helps scrub teeth. My Vizsla (Chester) is going to turn 7 next month. His teeth sparkle. No gum disease. Typical of PMR dogs.

Feeding animals what they were shaped by evolution to thrive on, has its upsides. Good teeth is just one of many advantages.

Bill

Well goodness.

At not quite seven years old and a large(ish) dog? I sure hope his teeth still look good. If they didn't--regardless of type of diet--I'd suspect some really crappy genetics. I've never had a dog that young whose teeth and gums weren't still in great shape.

[Tanaqui]

IDK, Pawz. My vet guessed my older dog's age based on his level of gum disease when we first got him. (Then again, our second dog, now the same age he was then, has beautiful teeth. They've both been on the same diet ever since, which definitely includes the dreaded kibble and a "small" amount of human snacks. Mostly meat! sometimes potato chips.)

Bill, as for your comment - I wasn't "misremembering" anything, because I didn't leave that up to memory in the first place. As I said, I went and looked up your comments for verification. You were bashing people. Perhaps you misremember. Then again, I'm sure you would've said the same thing then that you just did here - that you weren't. But I'm not the only one who thought you were bashing people then, and I'm clearly not the one who remembers it that way now. Which is more likely? That you're the most accurate person to talk about your behavior, or that everybody else is?

[Pawz4me]

6 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

IDK, Pawz. My vet guessed my older dog's age based on his level of gum disease when we first got him. (Then again, our second dog, now the same age he was then, has beautiful teeth. They've both been on the same diet ever since, which definitely includes the dreaded kibble and a "small" amount of human snacks. Mostly meat! sometimes potato chips.)

 

Yes, vets go by how much tooth gunk there is and by how worn down the teeth are (or aren't). But IME most six/seven year old medium/large dogs still have quite healthy teeth and gums, regardless of diet. The same isn't usually true of smaller dogs, though.

[Spy Car]

51 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Well goodness.

At not quite seven years old and a large(ish) dog? I sure hope his teeth still look good. If they didn't--regardless of type of diet--I'd suspect some really crappy genetics. I've never had a dog that young whose teeth and gums weren't still in great shape.

Over 87% of dogs over three years old have periodontal disease. That's not due to bad genetics. It is diet.

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

36 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

IDK, Pawz. My vet guessed my older dog's age based on his level of gum disease when we first got him. (Then again, our second dog, now the same age he was then, has beautiful teeth. They've both been on the same diet ever since, which definitely includes the dreaded kibble and a "small" amount of human snacks. Mostly meat! sometimes potato chips.)

Bill, as for your comment - I wasn't "misremembering" anything, because I didn't leave that up to memory in the first place. As I said, I went and looked up your comments for verification. You were bashing people. Perhaps you misremember. Then again, I'm sure you would've said the same thing then that you just did here - that you weren't. But I'm not the only one who thought you were bashing people then, and I'm clearly not the one who remembers it that way now. Which is more likely? That you're the most accurate person to talk about your behavior, or that everybody else is?

No. You are saying things that just are not true. Having issues with with carbohydrate-heavy diets for canines doesn't equate with bashing people for feeding a standard American dog diet. I've done the same thing (feeding dogs kibble myself). 

You are most certainly not in a position to talks about my behavior. You don't speak for me. And you are utterly mischaracterizing me. 

Try developing some nuance in your thinking. The world isn't black and white.

Bill

[Spy Car]

26 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes, vets go by how much tooth gunk there is and by how worn down the teeth are (or aren't). But IME most six/seven year old medium/large dogs still have quite healthy teeth and gums, regardless of diet. The same isn't usually true of smaller dogs, though.

That's not accurate. Periodontal disease is dogs is rampant.

Bill

[Pawz4me]

Just now, Spy Car said:

That's not accurate. Periodontal disease is dogs is rampant.

Bill

I’m telling you what I see from the dogs in the rescues I work with. It is accurate based on my own experience. You can cite all the statistics you want, but unless you’re working beside me pulling and transporting and fostering (which you aren’t) then you can’t contradict my lived experience.