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A tangent to this thread (not necessarily for mass shooter situations, obviously, but for the hateful, racist actions we notice...):

 

 

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Interesting police response to a murder spree that left 8 people dead: Capt. Jay Baker explained that the suspect "was pretty much fed up, had been kind of at the end of his rope, and yesterday was a

On what planet is “he doesn’t hate Asians, he just sees Asian women as fetish objects rather than people” considered evidence of non-racism?     Not here, I know.  But gah.  Just . . . there ar

I can't get over the audacity of that "bad day" comment. The layers of racism in having to explain why the poor white boy became a murderer. I cannot imagine this sort of rhetoric used to describe any

22 hours ago, Danae said:

But gah.  Just . . . there are no words for how convoluted people are willing to go to avoid acknowledging racism. It really does seem like for some people the idea of maybe attributing one more atom of motive to racism than is strictly necessary is a worse offense than murder.  

But, see, I think everyone is jumping to the "race" card way too quickly. My first thought was that it was a crime against women, and, like Katie says, it just so happens that this particular occupation has many Asian women working in it, just like the nail salons have many Asian women working in them. Even the perpetrator indicated that is wasn't racially motivated -- why can we not believe that?

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17 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Even the perpetrator indicated that is wasn't racially motivated -- why can we not believe that?

Because GA has a hate crime law on the books that adds additional penalties if it was a hate crime. It adds an extra 2 years for each felony, this guy killed 8 people.  It being a hate crime versus just a "regular spree killing" adds 16 years to his sentence.  That the guy wouldn't want to confess to something that would ADD 16 years to his sentence seems fairly reasonable and logical.    

I think the real question is why WOULD we believe the self serving statement of a man who just finished a spree killing?? He doesn't exactly seem honest and trustworthy.   Why do "we" as a populace, as a country, *need* this to not be about race?  

 

https://www.jacksonlewis.com/publication/georgia-s-new-hate-crimes-legislation

The hate crimes bill that Georgia Governor Brian Kemp signed into law on June 26, 2020, imposes additional criminal sentencing guidelines on anyone who commits a “hate” crime intentionally based on race, sex, sexual orientation, color, religion, national origin, mental disability, or physical disability.

Under the new law, a person found guilty of committing a hate crime would face an additional six-to-12 months in prison and a fine of up to $5,000 for one of five misdemeanor offenses, and at least two years in jail for a felony offense.

Edited by Cnew02
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re but the killer SAID SO.... why can't we believe him?

23 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

But, see, I think everyone is jumping to the "race" card way too quickly. My first thought was that it was a crime against women, and, like Katie says, it just so happens that this particular occupation has many Asian women working in it, just like the nail salons have many Asian women working in them. Even the perpetrator indicated that is wasn't racially motivated -- why can we not believe that?

If a crime is deemed by prosecutors to be a hate crime, they can (depending on the state/ federal jurisdiction) either enhance the charge from misdemeanor to felony at the time of indictment, or add time to the recommended sentence upon conviction.

Quote

Criminal Penalties

Criminal penalties for hate crimes vary from state to state but many hate crimes are felonies (crimes punishable by more than one year in prison). States that allow penalty enhancements might increase the penalty by a certain number of years or raise the offense level—say from a misdemeanor to a felony or from a second-degree to a first-degree felony. Under federal hate crime legislation, bias-motivated violence is punishable by ten years to life in prison, and some bias-motivated crimes are punishable by the death penalty. (18 U.S.C. §§ 245, 249.) For more information on federal prosecutions, see Federal Prosecutions for Civil Rights Violations.

Civil Remedies

In 31 states and the District of Columbia, people who commit violence, intimidation, or vandalism against others on account of the person’s race, religion, ethnicity, or membership in a protected group can be sued in civil court and ordered to pay damages (money) to the victim. Just as criminal hate crime laws vary from state to state, so do civil liability laws.

 

Either way, the perpetrator is facing substantially greater consequences, if prosecutors deem these killings to be hate crimes.

It is very much in the perpetrator's interest to fend off any association with his acts as driven by either race-specific targeting, or woman-specific targeting. To frame the acts, for example, as driven by his own addiction or pathology, is his best legal shot at evading or minimizing consequences.

 

His conduct manifestly targeted women.  Eyewitnesses and surviving victims has stated that he yelled racial epithets.  Why can't we believe that?   

What is it about his words, that trumps his actions?  Particularly when his words serve the *effect* of mitigating the potential consequences of his actions?

 

 

 

eta @Cnew02 got there first; what cnew said, LOL

Edited by Pam in CT
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8 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

Why do "we" as a populace, as a country, *need* this to not be about race?  

 

https://www.jacksonlewis.com/publication/georgia-s-new-hate-crimes-legislation

The hate crimes bill that Georgia Governor Brian Kemp signed into law on June 26, 2020, imposes additional criminal sentencing guidelines on anyone who commits a “hate” crime intentionally based on race, sex, sexual orientation, color, religion, national origin, mental disability, or physical disability.

And, why, as a populace do we *need* it to be about race? And, I think you could make a compelling argument that it was a "hate" crime against women, so he would get the added years anyway.

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Just now, Martha in GA said:

And, why, as a populace do we *need* it to be about race? And, I think you could make a compelling argument that it was a "hate" crime against women, so he would get the added years anyway.

Because we have a race problem.

And in the history of the world, no problem has ever been fixed, by ignoring its existence. 

 

{See: my still-dripping guest bathroom faucet, which still has not self-healed despite weeks of assiduous ignoring...]

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7 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

And, why, as a populace do we *need* it to be about race? And, I think you could make a compelling argument that it was a "hate" crime against women, so he would get the added years anyway.

 Because he targeted a specific type of woman.  Based on...their race.  He could have gone to strip clubs.  Or found random prostitutes.  Or Victoria Secret, or a hair salon or Target. He didn't.  For a reason.  He didn't want to kill "women-general" he wanted to kill "women - Asian" specifically.

Edited by Cnew02
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24 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

And, why, as a populace do we *need* it to be about race? And, I think you could make a compelling argument that it was a "hate" crime against women, so he would get the added years anyway.

Why do you so desperately need it to *not* be about race? Obviously this was a crime against women (and one man) but why ignore the fact that they were mostly Asian women? 

Edited by OH_Homeschooler
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7 hours ago, Stacia said:

 

 

Thanks for this resource.  I have been seeing Asian hate since I was a small kid- the same kids who called my Pollack and four eyes and made fun of me called my Asian friends other names and would also make fun of them - and make fun of my Latin American friends, etc.  

I am so happy we are finally talking about anti- Asian hate.  It has been a very long time coming.  

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10 hours ago, bibiche said:

As uncomfortable as it may be, if you have a view on this, you should discuss it with your family members. Just like you should discuss donating your organs. It can help the people left behind who are struggling.

 

Oh, my family definitely knows how I feel.  🙂  I'm very much against the death-penalty.  I think you can feel contrary emotions about something and yet still be confident in your decision.  For example, cutting up a loved-one's (or my own) body to get their organs might feel uncomfortable and sad for me, but I still absolutely support it.  Our family tends to discuss things like this a lot!

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25 minutes ago, Cnew02 said:

 Because he targeted a specific type of woman.  Based on...their race.  He could have gone to strip clubs.  Or found random prostitutes.  Or Victoria Secret, or a hair salon or Target. He didn't.  For a reason.  He didn't want to kill "women-general" he wanted to kill "women - Asian" specifically.

Strip clubs have mostly men in them and men who could attack him back.  If he really has an issue with sex addiction and is blaming others for that, he may still not desire to kill random people he isn't sure about whether they are prostitutes or not plus he apparently was a customer of at least one of these 'massage' parlors but may not have been a customer of street prostitutes.  Going to Victoria Secret - while they sell what he would probably consider provocative clothing, they aren't the same thing as a "massage" parlor.  Even more so with a hair salon or Target--- he isn't targeting all women- just women he blames for his sexual addiction.

But he shot 2 men- one who died too- and one of the men had nothing to do with the massage parlor, just happened to be walking to another store in the same shopping strip as the massage parlor. 

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People don't fully understand their motivations for doing anything, let alone a mass shooter. He didn't have to have a dissertation about how he hates Asians for us to think this, in part, probably had a racial aspect to it.

Our country has a race problem, and we are all affected by the stereotypes that were rampant as we grew up and are still lingering around today. Asian women have a particular stereotype that has a strong sexual component, namely as pliant sex dolls. I can easily see how an unhinged guy raised in an environment that emphasized how even sexual thoughts were sins could target Asian women. Of course, part of it could be that they were already in his orbit anyway as well. How much was racial? We'll probably never know. Motivations are complicated.

The prosecutor will have to decide if there is enough evidence to charge him with a hate crime. But we can take a more sociological and psychological view, and I'm comfortable assuming that race and racial stereotypes probably played a role here (though I think sexually repressed misogyny is more to blame). Not to mention, it creates an opportunity for us to examine and discuss these stereotypes and listen to the women who experience them, which is good. 

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1 hour ago, Martha in GA said:

But, see, I think everyone is jumping to the "race" card way too quickly. My first thought was that it was a crime against women, and, like Katie says, it just so happens that this particular occupation has many Asian women working in it, just like the nail salons have many Asian women working in them. Even the perpetrator indicated that is wasn't racially motivated -- why can we not believe that?

We can’t believe him because he is manifestly full of shit. 

If you go on a shooting spree targeting Asian women you’re a racist misogynist whatever lies you tell yourself and others about your motivations.

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1 hour ago, Cnew02 said:

 Because he targeted a specific type of woman.  Based on...their race.  He could have gone to strip clubs.  Or found random prostitutes.  Or Victoria Secret, or a hair salon or Target. He didn't.  For a reason.  He didn't want to kill "women-general" he wanted to kill "women - Asian" specifically.

Yep.

Because if he had targeted women in general and went  to almost any place in the area, mostly his shots would have hit... white women. Population-wise, the odds would be all or mostly white women.

He didn't do that. He specifically chose locations that were populated mostly by Asian women.

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37 minutes ago, Danae said:


If you go on a shooting spree targeting Asian women you’re a racist misogynist whatever lies you tell yourself and others about your motivations.

I think that part we can probably all agree on. 

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3 hours ago, Martha in GA said:

But, see, I think everyone is jumping to the "race" card way too quickly. My first thought was that it was a crime against women, and, like Katie says, it just so happens that this particular occupation has many Asian women working in it, just like the nail salons have many Asian women working in them. Even the perpetrator indicated that is wasn't racially motivated -- why can we not believe that?

Not a random "it just so happens".   A racist and mysogynist "it just so happens".  Asian massage businesses are a thing  for a reason.   Racist exploitation of Asian female sexual stereotypes for profit in a racist, capitalist, mysogynist society. 

Whether he specifically, mindfully set out to kill asian women, or whether he set out to kill women who he believes are sex-workers and "it just so happens" that they are asian because that's who works in massage parlours (and he'd frequented these businesses, he knew who worked there) doesn't matter - he targeted  asian women.  It's a racist hate-crime either way. 

Edited to delete the word "almost"  Not almost doesn't matter.  Just straight doesn't matter. 

Edited by wathe
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On 3/18/2021 at 9:55 AM, MercyA said:

Lots of good points, Katie! It's always a pleasure to hear from you.

Just want to quickly comment on this one point, then I have to get ready for my vac appt.--whoot!

I don't believe hunting to feed one's family is a sin. But I don't personally know many (any?) hunters who do it because it's more humane for the animals than factory farming (which I agree, it often is--with the exception of bow hunting, which I believe should be illegal). And often by the time the hunters buy all their specialized gear, clothing, etc., it's not even cheaper than buying meat at the store.

There are also many hunters who actively enjoy the moment of taking another creature's life. They like shooting a bullet or arrow into the animal's flesh and seeing him stumble and fall. That, to me, is a terrible sickness. 

And then the photos...hunters holding up a lifeless deer's head, blood running from his mouth, while the man or woman grins and gives a thumb's up. That shows a cavalier attitude towards taking life. Those photos are, in my view, obscene and damaging. 

I know some very gentle, peace-loving men who are gun owners. I am not anti-gun. I am anti-killing and anti-glorification of killing.

I don’t think I know a single hunter currently who hunts purely to put food on his table.  There is always a sport element to it.  There is a video several years old of a young girl 10-12 years old who killed her first deer.  She was so high on adrenaline ....aka the thrill of it that she was literally shaking.  Everyone was liking the video, aww how sweet, blah blah blah.  I was literally sick to my stomach.  

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Asian women suffer a racialized form of misogyny from a % of Western men who view them as a fetish. 

It's not incidental the perp shot women. 

Nor is it incidental they are Asian. 

Nor is it incidental that, yet again, man murders many with gun in a culture where this is far from unusual.

The idea that it's just purity culture or just race or just misogyny or just gun violence is simplistic. It's a toxic stew of correlating factors, each of which deserves attention. 

Meanwhile, more dead women. 

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6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don’t think I know a single hunter currently who hunts purely to put food on his table.  There is always a sport element to it.  There is a video several years old of a young girl 10-12 years old who killed her first deer.  She was so high on adrenaline ....aka the thrill of it that she was literally shaking.  Everyone was liking the video, aww how sweet, blah blah blah.  I was literally sick to my stomach.  

But you live in Oklahoma.  In Alaska, there are people who hunt and fish for their meat. 

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2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Asian women suffer a racialized form of misogyny from a % of Western men who view them as a fetish. 

It's not incidental the perp shot women. 

Nor is it incidental they are Asian. 

Nor is it incidental that, yet again, man murders many with gun in a culture where this is far from unusual.

The idea that it's just purity culture or just race or just misogyny or just gun violence is simplistic. It's a toxic stew of correlating factors, each of which deserves attention. 

Meanwhile, more dead women. 

Yes. You are completely right- many, many factors play into most murders.

And as to the fetish of East Asian women,  I am wondering if some of thr men don't really care if it is a Russian woman or an East Asian woman- they just want to be very dominant in the relationship-  these men are generally marrying mail order brides. I am now interested in whether the men who use East Asian prostitutes versus ones of other races do so exclusively or whether they go to different types of prostitutes at different occasions. 

Either way, there is s lot of exploitation those 'massage' parlors.

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18 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

But you live in Oklahoma.  In Alaska, there are people who hunt and fish for their meat. 

There are probably people in OK who do the same.  I just don’t know them.  I am telling you my life experience, as a 55 year old woman....people hunt for sport.  Period.  

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“Peterson described his mother as a kind and deeply caring woman. If you stopped by her house, she’d sit you down, ask if you’d eaten, and then insist on a trip to H Mart grocery store so she could make a meal.

“She feeds all my friends,” said Peterson, adding they loved the Korean home cooking she brought to Georgia in the 1980s after meeting her boys’ dad, an American soldier. Elliott Peterson, 42, the couple’s oldest, also served in the U.S. Army before retiring in September.”

https://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-officials-release-names-of-4-women-killed-in-atlanta-spa-shootings/UJR22SSUQZE2JHB7EFWRT6DUZI/

 

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This is a very thoughtful NYT opinion piece, that nicely summarizes the history and intersection of race, gender and class with respect to Asian massage work and sex work.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/19/opinion/atlanta-shooting-massage-sex-work.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

Excerpts:

"For now, we do not know whether the massage parlor workers who were killed would have considered themselves sex workers, and we may never know. But the answer is less relevant to their deaths than their murderer’s answer: Does it matter how one identifies oneself if a mass killer conflates any Asian woman in a massage parlor with a sex worker?"

"But beyond this specific history, structural violence against Asians in the United States has long been institutionalized. The racist, sexist nature of American society is hardly some aberrant, recent phenomenon that can be fixed through minor reform."

"In this way, the Asian woman became an object of hatred, and lust, a thing to loathe, then desire, the distance between yellow peril and yellow fever measured in flashes."

"The events were also informed by class: These women, some of whom were working class, almost certainly died because they were at work. As working women of color, they existed at the terrible nexus of race, gender and class. It is, of course, often women who don’t speak English or are undocumented who are locked out of traditional labor markets, or are otherwise marginalized"

 

 

Edited by wathe
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Oh remember when the Captain who was talking about the the case the day after the shooter was caught and he said something like he had a very bad day. People ganged up on him but it turns out that those weren;;t his words but rather what the suspect said as an excuse.

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43 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Oh remember when the Captain who was talking about the the case the day after the shooter was caught and he said something like he had a very bad day. People ganged up on him but it turns out that those weren;;t his words but rather what the suspect said as an excuse.

I’m pretty sure that everyone who “ganged up” on the captain knew that he was credulously repeating what the man who had just admitted shooting ten people had said.  His job isn’t to be the killer’s press secretary.

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4 hours ago, Danae said:

I’m pretty sure that everyone who “ganged up” on the captain knew that he was credulously repeating what the man who had just admitted shooting ten people had said.  His job isn’t to be the killer’s press secretary.

And they have appointed a person whose job is to answer questions and talk about the investigation and leave the caption to his regular duties like interviewing suspects.

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Admittedly, my knowledge of police work comes from TV, but I'm pretty sure that part of the Captain's job IS to answer questions and talk about the investigation.

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2 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Admittedly, my knowledge of police work comes from TV, but I'm pretty sure that part of the Captain's job IS to answer questions and talk about the investigation.

I do have more knowledge about policing because I am a former LEO and also have an MS and abd in Criminal Justice.  Anyway, police shows tend to show large departments where there are a lot of personnel.  Cherokee County. GA is a smaller county than my county by about a hundred thousand.  Anyway,  there are a lot of different ways that departments are organized.  In some, yes, the Captain is mainly a desk job and isn't involved in investigation at all but in supervising investigators and maybe act as a spokesperson.  But lots of departments use a particular spokesperson for all their cases no matter who is in charge and other departments, especially smaller ones ( and I haven't investigated the size of Cherokee County Sheriff Department but it is a third smaller than ours and I know that ours has way too much area to cover per deputy and that higher ranked officials are often the investigators)  have very different ways of organizing their departments.  Over in my area, there are departments with 6 LEOs in total---- that would absolutely be different than the tv shows.  ANd the tv shows tend to make everything look a lot more organized, roles neatly spelled out, none of the usual so and so is out for vacation, so and so are sick (probably more sick now because of COVID), etc,. etc.  

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SuChin Pak was someone I knew from ZDTV which is no more, but was one of the tech TV channels. She moved on to MTV. Her instagram details what she faced in MTV. What is hard to read is how the network put the onus on her to "be the big person". 

https://www.vulture.com/2021/03/suchin-pak-racist-mtv-story-instagram.html

Sad as well as powerful to read. 

Edited by Dreamergal
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Okay, Chris, I'll accept your answer as per the role of a police captain *without* accepting that this same captain was not responsible for his words when he was called upon to speak, even if that's normally his job.

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On 3/17/2021 at 4:40 PM, TravelingChris said:

What race and what sex and what job did the two non Asians who were killed have?

I think his excuse is ludicrous and want the death penalty for him.  

ETA: I agree with Christina. 
 

I haven’t read the responses but at what point do we say this man was crazy and not representative of any teaching or belief system that promotes it? It’s just post justification. Sometimes evil is just evil. 

Edited by BlsdMama
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