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8 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

In my master's thesis on Erotomania and crime (Erotomania is a delusional state where someone thinks that someone else is attracted to them or they are their special partner----think of John Hinkley Jr as an example who thought that Jodie Foster was supposed to be his girlfriend or wife), I found that the only relevant characteristics of those who did crimes with that delusion was males, and younger males more specifically.

That is what was surprising about the Las Vegas shooter.

The thing is with this guy, he went to residential therapy twice and then his parent's kicked him out because he was still doing porn.  Now that may seem extreme but lots of porn is actually underage porn- i.el child porn and we don't know if he had a thing for teens or Asian teens or teen looking people or what.  You are darn right that I would immediately throw out somebody in my household who was looking at underage porn.  That is a very serious crime and normal people do not want to have their lives upended by FBI investigations, which are very common if child porn is involved.  

Or the parents might be moralistic a- holes who overreact all the time.  I have no idea.

There is too much extension/assumption in this post to move forward/address.

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Interesting police response to a murder spree that left 8 people dead: Capt. Jay Baker explained that the suspect "was pretty much fed up, had been kind of at the end of his rope, and yesterday was a

On what planet is “he doesn’t hate Asians, he just sees Asian women as fetish objects rather than people” considered evidence of non-racism?     Not here, I know.  But gah.  Just . . . there ar

I can't get over the audacity of that "bad day" comment. The layers of racism in having to explain why the poor white boy became a murderer. I cannot imagine this sort of rhetoric used to describe any

I was wondering whether there would be protests in the USA following this? There have been ongoing protests in the UK after the death of Sarah Everard allegedly at the hands of a police officer, and in Australia after a woman alleged being raped in parliament house. Now a large group of women have been murdered in Georgia. It links in to the other thread - a violent society leads to violence against women.

 

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11 minutes ago, bookbard said:

 

I was wondering whether there would be protests in the USA following this? There have been ongoing protests in the UK after the death of Sarah Everard allegedly at the hands of a police officer, and in Australia after a woman alleged being raped in parliament house. Now a large group of women have been murdered in Georgia. It links in to the other thread - a violent society leads to violence against women.

 

I have heard that a few marches and vigils are planned in Atlanta.  But I mostly expect a big shrug. We’ve just sort of accepted mass/spree killings.  If school shootings get shrugs from the larger society, a few women aren’t going to get much attention.  Especially minority women who can be painted as at least sex-industry adjacent.  Nope.  Not going to be a big ripple in our country.

Individuals will be upset.  I’m upset.  But collectively, it’ll be forgotten in a week.  Less if something shiny comes up.    

Now isn’t the time to talk about it. 
Thoughts and prayers. 
He was mentally ill.  

And we’ll be shocked! in a couple months when it happens again.  
 

(I’m not advocating for that of course. Just observing a familiar pattern.).   

 

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38 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I want a law that is in place to be upheld.  But as I can see, all you want to do is argue.

Oh and my ethics and the ethics of the great majority of people who support the death penalty are not at all aligned with killers.   But I have never been in a trial and never will be either- because of my disabilities, I can't serve on a jury.  So why do you care what I think?  I am not going to be on that jury, I am not the prosecutor deciding on what to charge, etc.  

Not arguing, just pointing out inconsistencies. You say your church “focuses on God’s grace,” yet you want people executed. You say that your ethics are not aligned with killers, yet you want to kill.

I don’t particularly care what you think, but perhaps by pointing out these inconsistencies I might help other people who don’t have an inexorable attachment to the death penalty.

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I think the straight-up racism side of this is getting lost in the deflection of the killer having a bad day, being a Xtian, etc. Asians on the scene said he said he was going to kill the Asians. Obviously the main narrative we're seeing in English language reporting is not that. It is a narrative in Asian reporting.

Why are we ignoring info provided by actual victims at the scene?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I think the straight-up racism side of this is getting lost in the deflection of the killer having a bad day, being a Xtian, etc. Asians on the scene said he said he was going to kill the Asians. Obviously the main narrative we're seeing in English language reporting is not that. It is a narrative in Asian reporting.

Why are we ignoring info provided by actual victims at the scene?

 

 

Myunderstanding is it was reported by people who knew someone who knew someone...we get a lot of bad reporting right after an event. Not saying racism wasn't a factor at all. 

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6 hours ago, Josh Blade said:

That makes sense. I wasn't even thinking of the sex/massage trope tbh. 

I wonder how many other commenters are missing the context.

I am NOT blaming the victims FTR.  It is likely that, IF something untoward was happening behind those doors, the women were victims of other crimes (human trafficking / slavery etc.) long before they were shot.  (And, does anyone care about that?  Probably a different thread, but ....)

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6 hours ago, MercyA said:

Yes. I also know of one family on the forum who does the same (although they are politically conservative).

I've pretty sure, though, that the vast majority of hunters in the United States are politically right-wing. Thinking of the NRA, for instance. 

According to a quick google search, 19% of US gun owners consider themselves NRA members.  I guess that means 81% do not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "right wing," but I take it to mean far right / extreme right.  I don't think it's accurate to say the vast majority of US hunters are that.  I think that is what the popular info sources may want you to believe though.

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1 hour ago, kand said:

The majority of the people calling it Wuhan virus (Who are usually the same people who also call it Kung flu) are very specifically doing it to be hateful to certain groups

The people I've heard use these terms (in person or online) seem to be doing it as a way to protest the Chinese Communist Party's general behavior and coverup of Covid-19. I don't think most of them blame Asians or Chinese people in general. People are capable of believing another government is horrible or even evil without blaming all the regular people who have that government foisted upon them without their consent.

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13 minutes ago, SKL said:

I wonder how many other commenters are missing the context.

I am NOT blaming the victims FTR.  It is likely that, IF something untoward was happening behind those doors, the women were victims of other crimes (human trafficking / slavery etc.) long before they were shot.  (And, does anyone care about that?  Probably a different thread, but ....)

Again, in at least one report (NYTIMES) among the victims were middle aged women and a young, married mother who was there for a damned couples massage with her spouse. I don’t know what typically happens in massage parlors as I don’t frequent them but this kind of speculation is unwarranted based on actual reporting. But, yes, by all means let’s downplay the seriousness of yet another attack on women, women of color, who were less deserving of life b/c DEFLECTION.

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5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

 

The reason it seems like hunters mainly fall into that category of glorifying violence is that the ones just doing it to provide food are not posting photos of it, bragging about it, etc. My husband's uncle hunts, brings back the meat, and the only photos he posts are of the jerky and sausages he hand makes, lol. A quick glance would have you think he was into food, not hunting. 

 

Yeah, my dad is an NRA member because my mom bought him a life membership back in the 1950s/1960s, when it was a very different organization.

My dad has been a hunter since he was a teen (though recently his shoulder hurts too much for that).  He shot stuff and ate it.  That's it.  Real exciting.  (I mean, to him, it was a fun hobby [he repaired / built guns, made bullets/shells and hunting clothes, walked around in the woods all day, and shot and ate stuff].  Fun for him, but not exciting to the rest of the world.)

My dad has never posted a photo of something he has killed.  For that matter, he has never posted a photo, period.

I am pretty sure a good % of hunters are more like my dad than like what the media wants people to think.

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7 hours ago, bibiche said:

 

I find these calls for his death so very disturbing. How would taking another life make things better? What he did was heinous and he should spent the rest of his life in prison, but putting someone to death is barbaric. 

Some people think death is more merciful than life in prison. When some people say the phrase, "Some things are worse than death" life in a maximum security prison in the US is one of them. 

Some people think death is the only punishment that fits the crime and is a deterrent to others who might consider murder but for capital punishment. They aren't saying it would deter everyone. 

Some people think death is the only way to make sure the murderer never does it again.

I'm not making any of the arguments myself or trying to persuade anyone to agree with them, I'm simply telling you how some other people see things because it's important to have an awareness of different points of views in a multi-cultural society.

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18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Again, in at least one report (NYTIMES) among the victims were middle aged women and a young, married mother who was there for a damned couples massage with her spouse. I don’t know what typically happens in massage parlors as I don’t frequent them but this kind of speculation is unwarranted based on actual reporting. But, yes, by all means let’s downplay the seriousness of yet another attack on women, women of color, who were less deserving of life b/c DEFLECTION.

I am not downplaying anything.  It is horrible what happened, regardless of the victims' race, gender, or anything else.

I too thought there was some effort at distraction when I saw how immediately this incident became politicized.  I wondered, what are people trying to distract from?  It seems pretty clear what happened here.  A violent person killed a number of innocent victims.  People always want to add their own spin to the story.  When a person of East Asian descent shot up a US college campus, what spin was put on that?

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3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am not downplaying anything.  It is horrible what happened, regardless of the victims' race, gender, or anything else.

I too thought there was some effort at distraction when I saw how immediately this incident became politicized.  I wondered, what are people trying to distract from?  It seems pretty clear what happened here.  A violent WHITE MAN killed a number of innocent WOMEN AND PoC victims.  People always want to add their own spin to the story.  When a person of East Asian descent shot up a US college campus, what spin was put on that?

That’s not spin. These are facts. When PoC shoot up military facilities and colleges it is IMMEDIATELY labeled terrorism and the communities they come from are evaluated for suspect beliefs/teachings/blame. Shoe meet other foot. The radicalization of white men is a problem. It needs to be treated with the same single minded focus and seriousness as other forms of radical terrorist acts.

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6 minutes ago, SKL said:

I am not downplaying anything.  It is horrible what happened, regardless of the victims' race, gender, or anything else.

I too thought there was some effort at distraction when I saw how immediately this incident became politicized.  I wondered, what are people trying to distract from?  It seems pretty clear what happened here.  A violent person killed a number of innocent victims.  People always want to add their own spin to the story.  When a person of East Asian descent shot up a US college campus, what spin was put on that?

The focus on his motivation is partly based on his own words and confession. That's not spin, if he said it himself. 

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34 minutes ago, SKL said:

I wonder how many other commenters are missing the context.

I am NOT blaming the victims FTR.  It is likely that, IF something untoward was happening behind those doors, the women were victims of other crimes (human trafficking / slavery etc.) long before they were shot.  (And, does anyone care about that?  Probably a different thread, but ....)

To what are you referring when you ask "Does anyone care about that?" Because there was a thread a week or two ago that went pretty deep into trafficking. 

I know you would never victim blame, but there is a sort of implication here that you are excusing the women for performing "untoward" acts because they may very well have been performing them under duress. 

But what if they were there as a choice? Sex workers do not deserve to die performing their job any more than say, grocery store workers. 

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3 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

To what are you referring when you ask "Does anyone care about that?" Because there was a thread a week or two ago that went pretty deep into trafficking. 

I know you would never victim blame, but there is a sort of implication here that you are excusing the women for performing "untoward" acts because they may very well have been performing them under duress. 

But what if they were there as a choice? Sex workers do not deserve to die performing their job any more than say, grocery store workers. 

Well this is a huge deviation from what I actually said.  It's kinda frustrating the way plain words are given illogical and extreme meanings.

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Just now, SKL said:

Well this is a huge stretch from what I actually said.  It's kinda frustrating the way plain words are given extreme meanings.

You literally pivoted from the victimhood of the shooter’s targets to presuming they were sex trafficking victims already due to their location and occupation in one paragraph/post. Adding *IF* when reports are already available that refute your *IFs* is disingenuous.

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well this is a huge deviation from what I actually said.  It's kinda frustrating the way plain words are given illogical and extreme meanings.

That would have been a good place to clarify your meaning, if you so strongly believe I misinterpreted your implication. 

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52 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Myunderstanding is it was reported by people who knew someone who knew someone...we get a lot of bad reporting right after an event. Not saying racism wasn't a factor at all. 

I hadn't heard that or seen reporting to that effect.

The Korean source I posted on the first page of the thread said it was directly quoting someone who worked at one of the targeted locations and managed to escape. A quote from a victim at one scene with a direct quote about Asians specifically being targeted.

In the meantime, people are giving weight to what an actual mass murderer is saying after the fact (where he may be molding his story based on perceived defenses and/or advice from a lawyer or even,  perhaps, sympathetic LE who are spreading the killer's message) while ignoring, downplaying, or discounting a vicim's account.

Why is the focus (as always) on the white people's versions/explanations vs. those on the receiving end of the violence?

It's like white America can't stand to believe or give weight to Asian, or Black, or Native, or _____ victims' voices.

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18 minutes ago, kand said:

In what way was it politicized?

And what does "politicized" even mean? 

First, "politics" determine what is and is not considered a crime. Laws are passed by elected officials. 

Second, in a democracy isn't it normal to discuss news like this and speculate about the causes? 

What always happens in this country is that discussion is dismissed as "politicizing" the event. But that's actually a way of deflecting blame because if it's not "politicized" then we ignore it. 

WRT "sex trafficking, I wonder how much all of the QAnon focus on "sex trafficking" played into this. Why we do assume that Asian women working in massage parlors are victims of sex trafficking? 

 

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3 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I hadn't heard that or seen reporting to that effect.

The Korean source I posted on the first page of the thread said it was directly quoting someone who worked at one of the targeted locations and managed to escape. A quote from a victim at one scene with a direct quote about Asians specifically being targeted.

In the meantime, people are giving weight to what an actual mass murderer is saying after the fact (where he may be molding his story based on perceived defenses and/or advice from a lawyer or even,  perhaps, sympathetic LE who are spreading the killer's message) while ignoring, downplaying, or discounting a vicim's account.

Why is the focus (as always) on the white people's versions/explanations vs. those on the receiving end of the violence?

It's like white America can't stand to believe or give weight to Asian, or Black, or Native, or _____ victims' voices.

I misread it then, I thought it was someone who knew someone who worked there. I apologize. 

And again, I in now way am saying racism isn't at play. But given his plan to also attack a porn producer (I think?) I think a discussion on the over emphasis of sexual sin is worth discussing. 

 

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8 hours ago, Josh Blade said:

 

How many women did he he have to drive by that he didn't try to kill to go to three different Asian (Asian American?) owned spas to murder women that were 50+ and presumably not particularly 'immodest'? To view this as not racially motivated because the murderer says it wasn't racially motivated seems wrong on its face. Whether it was general hatred toward Asians or a more nuanced fetishization / devaluing of Asians probably can't be determined at this time, but it's crazy to me to view this as not racially motivated on some level.

Right, but he didn't target asian grocery stores or restaurants. I'm not saying it isn't racially motivated, I'm saying that's not ALL it is. 

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Ravi Z passed away recently.  He was a well-known apologist and was on the lecture circuit every October with the National Apologetics Conference.  The church that hosted this annual event is 3 miles from us and I went for several years (pre-pandemic).

I don't know what Ravi said re: this topic but it would behoove everyone to know the full story (of whatever it is being discussed). 

Sometimes quotes are taken out of context,  twisted or words expressed may be deleted leading or trailing a quote.  

There is another incredibly popular apologist from this city who also speaks at the same conference.  I know someone that didn't appreciate his position (or he seemed weak) regarding a hot social topic.   I  sat under his teaching for one class and didn't get that at all.

Sometimes people see/hear what they want to b/c of biases.  

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25 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Ravi Z passed away recently.  He was a well-known apologist and was on the lecture circuit every October with the National Apologetics Conference.  The church that hosted this annual event is 3 miles from us and I went for several years (pre-pandemic).

I don't know what Ravi said re: this topic but it would behoove everyone to know the full story (of whatever it is being discussed). 

Sometimes quotes are taken out of context,  twisted or words expressed may be deleted leading or trailing a quote.  

There is another incredibly popular apologist from this city who also speaks at the same conference.  I know someone that didn't appreciate his position (or he seemed weak) regarding a hot social topic.   I  sat under his teaching for one class and didn't get that at all.

Sometimes people see/hear what they want to b/c of biases.  

We were not discussing what Ravi said, but what was found out about him recently, after his death, and the abhorrent response by some others in regards to his actions. https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/february/ravi-zacharias-rzim-investigation-sexual-abuse-sexting-rape.html

A 12-page report released Thursday by Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) confirms abuse by Zacharias at day spas he owned in Atlanta and uncovers five additional victims in the US, as well as evidence of sexual abuse in Thailand, India, and Malaysia.

Even a limited review of Zacharias’s old devices revealed contacts for more than 200 massage therapists in the US and Asia and hundreds of images of young women, including some that showed the women naked. Zacharias solicited and received photos until a few months before his death in May 2020 at age 74.

 

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39 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I misread it then, I thought it was someone who knew someone who worked there. I apologize. 

And again, I in now way am saying racism isn't at play. But given his plan to also attack a porn producer (I think?) I think a discussion on the over emphasis of sexual sin is worth discussing. 

 

I agree that there are probably a few factors at play here, and I definitely agree that the whole Xtian/purity/sexual sin narrative needs to be a part of the bigger discussion.

I'm just afraid that the racism factor  is going to be downplayed which, in turn, will perpetuate the cycle of racism because it will be relegated to the back burner.

With white supremacy hate crimes on the rise among domestic terror groups (per the FBI), race is a big problem we need to be working on.

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

According to a quick google search, 19% of US gun owners consider themselves NRA members.  I guess that means 81% do not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "right wing," but I take it to mean far right / extreme right.  I don't think it's accurate to say the vast majority of US hunters are that.  I think that is what the popular info sources may want you to believe though.

"A majority of gun owners (61%) are Republicans or lean to the Republican Party, but NRA members skew even more heavily to the political right than other gun owners. Roughly three-quarters (77%) of gun owners who say they belong to the NRA are Republicans or lean Republican, while only 20% are Democrats or lean Democratic. Among gun owners who do not belong to the NRA, by contrast, 58% are Republicans and 39% are Democrats. And among Republican gun owners, NRA members are much more likely than nonmembers to describe their political views as very conservative (29% vs. 18%)." Pew Research

"According to a national poll, 42 percent of hunters and fishers are Republicans, versus 32 percent as independents and 18 percent as Democrats. In terms of ideology, 50 percent consider themselves conservative, 37 percent moderate, and 10 percent liberal." Scientific American

NRA Membership is $45 a year; I wouldn't expect the majority of hunters to be actual members.

Right-wing to me just means politically conservative. Perhaps the meaning has changed.

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re racism, misogyny, and synergy

2 minutes ago, Stacia said:

I agree that there are probably a few factors at play here, and I definitely agree that the whole Xtian/purity/sexual sin narrative needs to be a part of the bigger discussion.

I'm just afraid that the racism factor  is going to be downplayed which, in turn, will perpetuate the cycle of racism because it will be relegated to the back burner.

With white supremacy hate crimes on the rise among domestic terror groups (per the FBI), race is a big problem we need to be working on.

Racism is very often expressed in sexual terms.

The black-man-predator-against-white-women trope, which was used to justify hundreds of lynchings, is an expression of racism.

The related trope about the, uh, generous physical endowment of black men is an expression of racism.

The slender-limber-exotic-subservient-Asian-woman trope is an expression of racism.

The division of nice-white-girls that are marriageable, vs out-group-girls who are presumed to be available before -- or during, as sidebars -- to marriage, is an expression of racism.

 

More will come about over time, about this particular racist misogynist.  I think we've already got enough to go on, from his DIRECT CONDUCT and his OWN WORDS, to be pretty confident that his murdering was both defined by race-- he sought out Asian targets, specifically-- and fueled by misogyny -- he aimed for women that HE HIMSELF CHARACTERIZED in objectifying language. It's not like one precludes the other.

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Katie,

Well, I would be against any mistreatment like that.  BUT, have these been proven or allegations?  Clearly I'm not "up" on this.

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15 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Katie,

Well, I would be against any mistreatment like that.  BUT, have these been proven or allegations?  Clearly I'm not "up" on this.

His organization has admitted that the allegations are true. 

Out of curiosity, do you doubt that these allegations are true because you liked his message? That's what happened during his life. His accusers were slandered and harassed. After he died, the truth came out and everyone now admits that the allegations were true. 

Investigation Reveals Zacharias' years-long history of sexual abuse of women

Quote

In a statement, the RZIM board called the report’s findings “horrendous.”

“We believe not only the women who made their allegations public but also additional women who had not previously made public allegations against Ravi but whose identities and stories were uncovered during the investigation,” it read. “Tragically, witnesses described encounters including sexting, unwanted touching, spiritual abuse, and rape. We are devastated by what the investigation has shown and are filled with sorrow for the women who were hurt by this terrible abuse.”

 

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9 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

His organization has admitted that the allegations are true. 

Out of curiosity, do you doubt that these allegations are true because you liked his message? That's what happened during his life. His accusers were slandered and harassed. After he died, the truth came out and everyone now admits that the allegations were true. 

Investigation Reveals Zacharias' years-long history of sexual abuse of women

 

Yeah, not going to get pulled in to this one.  This is all news to me and sad to hear.  I did like his message - what I heard him speak.  Unfortunately, it seemed like he had a double life.

I'm not excusing him at all but how many people "look" the part in public until misdeeds, crimes are exposed.  He isn't the first nor will he be the last.

Now with that said, I do NOT know the developing story but it is tragic to hear about.  I read Katie's reply and that's it.

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5 hours ago, bibiche said:

Not arguing, just pointing out inconsistencies. You say your church “focuses on God’s grace,” yet you want people executed. You say that your ethics are not aligned with killers, yet you want to kill.

I don’t particularly care what you think, but perhaps by pointing out these inconsistencies I might help other people who don’t have an inexorable attachment to the death penalty.

Absolutely no inconsistent in my beliefs.  And I have never cared what you think either since you are consistently very rude and obnoxious.

I am law abiding person who thinks even killers can go to heaven, i.e. be benefitted from God's grace but that has nothing to do with what their proper punishment is and I have nothing to do with their punishment.  None if the stares I have been a voter in have had a vote on the death penalty when I was a voter.  So even if I wax anti death penalty. I would have no power to impose or oppose it.  As U have stated, I am now too disabled to be in a jury so I will never decide who gets the death penalty.  And unlike what you think, I do not think every killer deserves death. 

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8 hours ago, bibiche said:

Um, you want to put people to death. 🤔 

I want people to follow the law and decide justly.  And I know that many people on death row or on no parole life sentences want to die because prison is a worse hell for them.   .

But why don't you start another thread about how all people who support the death penalty are unethical and immoral and you and your compatriots can gave at it.  I won't join in 

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4 hours ago, kand said:

Of COURSE people care about that. We have had a recent thread about the degree to which people so care about that. Why would that be a question? But YES, that is definitely a different thread. 

 I can fully believe some of the people using that term are using it as you suggest, as a way of protesting the communist party. However, people of Chinese and other East Asian dissent are being harmed by that use. People are being hurt by it and pleading for it to stop. Does that matter, or should people discount the harm to Asian people and continue right on using it just because they don’t intend it that way?

And I do use Covid19 but still think of it as the Wuhan virus.  But I believe it originated in the Wuhan Level 4 biolab, most likely accidentally.

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3 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

And what does "politicized" even mean? 

First, "politics" determine what is and is not considered a crime. Laws are passed by elected officials. 

Second, in a democracy isn't it normal to discuss news like this and speculate about the causes? 

What always happens in this country is that discussion is dismissed as "politicizing" the event. But that's actually a way of deflecting blame because if it's not "politicized" then we ignore it. 

WRT "sex trafficking, I wonder how much all of the QAnon focus on "sex trafficking" played into this. Why we do assume that Asian women working in massage parlors are victims of sex trafficking? 

 

Because they often are.  There have been a number of  8nvestigations of some of these massage parlors and federal officials gave gotten involved because of what was basically slavery of these women.  They got into very large debt coming to this country and were forced into work they didn't want to do.  And it has nothing to do with QAnon since these investigations have been occurring for years and slk thr ones I recall were before QAnon existed.

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5 hours ago, SKL said:

According to a quick google search, 19% of US gun owners consider themselves NRA members.  I guess that means 81% do not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "right wing," but I take it to mean far right / extreme right.  I don't think it's accurate to say the vast majority of US hunters are that.  I think that is what the popular info sources may want you to believe though.

I was just coming on here to answer this, but it looks like Mercy was ahead of me.  Statistics I've seen show that: 

50 percent of Republicans reported that they owned at least one gun, and 64 percent said that they lived in a household with a gun. In comparison, only 18 percent of Democrats owned at least one gun, and 31 percent lived a gun household. 

Interestingly, it's not even necessarily the extreme right, but general right-wing Republicans seem to be more onboard with owning guns and hunting.  I have no idea why! 
 

Edited by J-rap
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3 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Interestingly, it's not even necessary the extreme right, but general right-wing Republicans seem to be more onboard with owning guns and hunting.  I have no idea why! 

 

Maybe because many rural and older folks are both republican and gun owners.  Also most gun owners and most republicans are male.

I would not use "right wing" to describe all conservatives / republicans, but I guess some people use it that way.

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3 hours ago, Stacia said:

I agree that there are probably a few factors at play here, and I definitely agree that the whole Xtian/purity/sexual sin narrative needs to be a part of the bigger discussion.

I'm just afraid that the racism factor  is going to be downplayed which, in turn, will perpetuate the cycle of racism because it will be relegated to the back burner.

With white supremacy hate crimes on the rise among domestic terror groups (per the FBI), race is a big problem we need to be working on.

A lit if the anti Asian crime does not seem to be done by white supremacists but by people from other races,.  And one of the articles that someone posted about anti Asian crime in SF, tge first story was about a Filipino man who was attacked by s Latino man who had first attacked a white man.  I do not understand why that would be considered an Anti Asian crime, considering he attacked two people and one was white and one was Filipino.  That sounds like he wanted to just attack people.

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2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re racism, misogyny, and synergy

Racism is very often expressed in sexual terms.

The black-man-predator-against-white-women trope, which was used to justify hundreds of lynchings, is an expression of racism.

The related trope about the, uh, generous physical endowment of black men is an expression of racism.

The slender-limber-exotic-subservient-Asian-woman trope is an expression of racism.

The division of nice-white-girls that are marriageable, vs out-group-girls who are presumed to be available before -- or during, as sidebars -- to marriage, is an expression of racism.

 

More will come about over time, about this particular racist misogynist.  I think we've already got enough to go on, from his DIRECT CONDUCT and his OWN WORDS, to be pretty confident that his murdering was both defined by race-- he sought out Asian targets, specifically-- and fueled by misogyny -- he aimed for women that HE HIMSELF CHARACTERIZED in objectifying language. It's not like one precludes the other.

I totally agree.

But I think for many who don't want to acknowledge racism, it is easy to mentally separate the thoughts.

So, I think many say it's sexual violence, but not racism. 

Or it's physical endowment, but not racism.

Or it's a cultural norm, but not racism.

They have reflex responses to "rationally" explain their thinking (woman invited it or maybe the guy was a perv; it's just biological "fact"; hey, it's what they [the other] choose in their culture, who am I to judge?) which allows convenient side-stepping of the race issue. Race hatred and white supremacy are so tied into these attitudes, but adding the additional layers lets those who want to ignore the racism do so and then explain away the other parts like I mentioned.

It's been happening for ages, and we've got to take the blinders off, and really start addressing the root issue of the problem... which, to a large extent, is racism/white supremacy.

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6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Maybe because many rural and older folks are both republican and gun owners.  Also most gun owners and most republicans are male.

I would not use "right wing" to describe all conservatives / republicans, but I guess some people use it that way.

You know, I think you're right.  We spent 25 years in a rural area, and many very moderate leaning people owned guns and hunted.  I wonder if the statistics I quoted earlier more refer to non-hunters...  People who want to have a gun on hand just in case, for safety reasons.  

ETA:  I wonder if the gun-owning statistics would more accurately present a picture if they were based on city-dwelling people.

Edited by J-rap
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29 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I want people to follow the law and decide justly.  And I know that many people on death row or on no parole life sentences want to die because prison is a worse hell for them.   .

But why don't you start another thread about how all people who support the death penalty are unethical and immoral and you and your compatriots can gave at it.  I won't join in 

I get what you're saying, and for most of my life, I didn't have a strong opinion on this.  If someone were to murder a member of my family, I don't know how I'd feel.  It's much easier to come to conclusions when you're not personally affected.  But at least from a distance, I'm beginning to think that even the most horrible people are deserving of life (even if just in prison).  Perhaps, even those people aren't past the point of redemption.  They, too, are a victim of their circumstances.  I don't know.  But I don't think God ever gives up on us, so...  I've been reading a fascinating memoir called River of Fire, about the nun in the movie Dead Man Walking, who ministered to prisoners on death row.  She didn't give up on those prisoners, even the most horrible ones.  She wanted them to experience love before they died.  It's a powerful book...  I think the book after that one delves even more into her ministry.  It's given me a lot to think about.

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5 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I get what you're saying, and for most of my life, I didn't have a strong opinion on this.  If someone were to murder a member of my family, I don't know how I'd feel.  It's much easier to come to conclusions when you're not personally affected.  But at least from a distance, I'm beginning to think that even the most horrible people are deserving of life (even if just in prison).  Perhaps, even those people aren't past the point of redemption.  They, too, are a victim of their circumstances.  I don't know.  But I don't think God ever gives up on us, so...  I've been reading a fascinating memoir called River of Fire, about the nun in the movie Dead Man Walking, who ministered to prisoners on death row.  She didn't give up on those prisoners, even the most horrible ones.  She wanted them to experience love before they died.  It's a powerful book...  I think the book after that one delves even more into her ministry.  It's given me a lot to think about.

Sister Helen Prejean.  How is she awesome, let me count the ways... but I give you here, her playlist.

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Not to mention people who are unjustly imprisoned, often POC.

There have been plenty of mistakes. And, even when there aren't mistakes, the system itself is rooted in racism.

So, is "justice" always being served?

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1 hour ago, J-rap said:

I get what you're saying, and for most of my life, I didn't have a strong opinion on this.  If someone were to murder a member of my family, I don't know how I'd feel.  It's much easier to come to conclusions when you're not personally affected.  

As uncomfortable as it may be, if you have a view on this, you should discuss it with your family members. Just like you should discuss donating your organs. It can help the people left behind who are struggling.

 

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I dislike the death penalty, but there needs to be a way for society to be sure the worst criminals will never be able to threaten innocent people again.  So far I am not impressed with how our society handles that, but maybe they'll figure it out someday.

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