The Deepest Math Programs

[Not_a_Number]

39 minutes ago, lewelma said:

No, I think that kids with tutors and mentors that can direct their studies for IMO success would be far superior to what my son did to prepare. We couldn't find anyone to help, and I certainly couldn't, so he prepared as best as he could on his own. 

I was basically entirely self-taught, too. I was a lot “spikier” than some of the really trained kids, but I’m also much more creative.
 

Quote

However, the self-teaching aspect of his approach was/is hugely important to his current success. He learned not only how to nut it out without help, he learned to struggle and not fear it. The day that an IMO perfect scorer knocked on my son's door to get help with his homework was a special day indeed. It showed him that his knowledge was different from someone who could well on the IMO, but it was not lesser. Basically, he couldn't do IMO problems in the time frame allotted, but if the questions were harder than IMO questions (questions that could take all day to solve), he was better than the other IMO kids. 

I guess maybe some IMO kids can’t do problems that take days instead of hours, but that wasn’t true of most of my teammates. A lot of us practiced on our own time and would ponder things all week when need be. Those of us that became mathematicians (and that was like half of us) would work on problems that took months or years to solve.

DH says he knew contest kids who just burned out when the problems weren’t as neat, but I don’t think that’s the only possible mode. A fair number of my IMO teammates are now math professors. One is a physics professor. I could have easily been a math professor had I chosen to be one instead of choosing to spend this time with my kids.

I wouldn’t generalize all kids who score highly on the IMO. They vary widely.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

I wouldn’t generalize all kids who score highly on the IMO. They vary widely.

Fair. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Fair. 

I guess sometimes your insistence that an IMO high score isn’t as meaningful as other kinds of deeper learning wind up making me feel a bit dismissed. I worked really hard to do well on these contests, and they took a lot of creativity, and I was just as self-taught as a homeschooled kid — I wasn’t trained by others. So I guess I want to feel proud without feeling like people will think that I’m an over-trained one-trick pony...

Edited March 21, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[lewelma]

52 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I guess sometimes your insistence that an IMO high score isn’t as meaningful as other kinds of deeper learning wind up making me feel a bit dismissed. I worked really hard to do well on these contests, and they took a lot of creativity, and I was just as self-taught as a homeschooled kid — I wasn’t trained by others. So I guess I want to feel proud without feeling like people will think that I’m an over-trained one-trick pony...

You have every reason to be proud.  As I'm sure you can imagine, ds's first term at MIT was quite a complex and somewhat overwhelming endeavor -- going to a foreign country and being one of only 2 homeschoolers there that year. There was a LOT to adapt to.  He didn't realize that the entire USA IMO team and a good chunk of the camp were attending MIT that year. There was a lot of jostling for position in a somewhat hierarchical situation, and ds had to somehow feel that his under-performance at the IMO was not representative of his capability. There was a lot of trama associated with the last IMO -- he jokes about PTSD, but he still struggles to take exams in a large room with lots of other people because of his experience in his senior year IMO. It was just that bad.  He put way way too much pressure on himself, and cracked.  So to find out to his surprise that he is actually a good mathematician when compared to all these kids that he kind of idolized was a good feeling for him.  Sorry, if you thought I was dismissing you. Not at all. You are my hero!

Edited March 21, 2021 by lewelma

[Not_a_Number]

12 hours ago, lewelma said:

You have every reason to be proud.  As I'm sure you can imagine, ds's first term at MIT was quite a complex and somewhat overwhelming endeavor -- going to a foreign country and being one of only 2 homeschoolers there that year. There was a LOT to adapt to.  He didn't realize that the entire USA IMO team and a good chunk of the camp were attending MIT that year. There was a lot of jostling for position in a somewhat hierarchical situation, and ds had to somehow feel that his under-performance at the IMO was not representative of his capability. There was a lot of trama associated with the last IMO -- he jokes about PTSD, but he still struggles to take exams in a large room with lots of other people because of his experience in his senior year IMO. It was just that bad.  He put way way too much pressure on himself, and cracked.  So to find out to his surprise that he is actually a good mathematician when compared to all these kids that he kind of idolized was a good feeling for him.  Sorry, if you thought I was dismissing you. Not at all. You are my hero!

Thanks for your kind response, and I'm sorry to whine. To be honest, I was kinda tipsy last night, or I wouldn't have put the thoughts into words. 

I absolutely understand the hierarchy thing. It's not usually the case that the whole team goes to MIT -- I can imagine that feeling intimidating! DH reports feeling intimidated by those kids as well -- he went to Harvard, and he wasn't a contest kid (he wasn't even planning to be a mathematician when he got to college), and those kids definitely felt like they were the top of the food chain, I think. And it was also a big deal for DH to feel like he wasn't worse than those kids -- just that his skills were different.  

I think I'm partially just responding to the feeling that my accomplishments no longer feel like they count for much 😕 . Way back when, I had the top score on my IMO team... but since getting my Ph.D, I've basically dropped out of sight. To be fair, I dropped out of sight because I've always wanted to raise my kids myself, and because I didn't want to be an academic... but apparently that doesn't make it sting any less. I've watched IMO teammates become professors and here I am, teaching little kids, without really any status or accomplishments I can show anyone (except, of course, that homeschooling itself feels like a tremendous accomplishment... but people never even want to talk about it, so I never feel like I get any respect for it.) 

Anyway, apparently I'm sensitive about this one, and I'm spending too much time dwelling on past glories instead of moving forward 😉 . My apologies. You're absolutely right that contest skills aren't the thing that make or break a good mathematician, and I'm sorry he had such a hard time during his last IMO. 

[Dmmetler]

I think that's kind of the case in general when you've had success in adult level stuff as a teen and before.  Realistically, our homeschooled kids are used to being in a very small pond indeed-and university is a totally different beast (especially when you're talking MIT!). And awards are often few and far between once you leave the University world. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I think that's kind of the case in general when you've had success in adult level stuff as a teen and before.  Realistically, our homeschooled kids are used to being in a very small pond indeed-and university is a totally different beast (especially when you're talking MIT!). And awards are often few and far between once you leave the University world. 

I dunno... lots of people I know who were accomplished in school are accomplished now. Depends what you aim your life at.

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

To be honest, I was kinda tipsy last night, or I wouldn't have put the thoughts into words. 

I think I'm partially just responding to the feeling that my accomplishments no longer feel like they count for much 😕 . Way back when, I had the top score on my IMO team... but since getting my Ph.D, I've basically dropped out of sight. To be fair, I dropped out of sight because I've always wanted to raise my kids myself, and because I didn't want to be an academic... but apparently that doesn't make it sting any less. I've watched IMO teammates become professors and here I am, teaching little kids, without really any status or accomplishments I can show anyone (except, of course, that homeschooling itself feels like a tremendous accomplishment... but people never even want to talk about it, so I never feel like I get any respect for it.) 

Anyway, apparently I'm sensitive about this one, and I'm spending too much time dwelling on past glories instead of moving forward 😉 . My apologies. You're absolutely right that contest skills aren't the thing that make or break a good mathematician, and I'm sorry he had such a hard time during his last IMO. 

First of all, don't drink and post.  You could be putting us all at risk or an emotional collision.  😉

If it makes you feel better, your accomplishments count very much with me!  I was aghast when you mentioned that the parents of your students have no idea who you are.  To put it into terms Americans can understand, it's like not knowing your kid's basketball coach is Shaquille ONeal.  Or something.  

I'm not as accomplished as you, but I also feel the sting that I haven't accomplished more.  We can only take  one path!  You can take satisfaction in knowing the sacrifices of others who entrusted their kid's education to misogynists and incompetents.   

I'm at a much lower level than you all, but I also hear contest skills denigrated as learning "tricks" that are of little use in the real world.  

    

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

If it makes you feel better, your accomplishments count very much with me!  I was aghast when you mentioned that the parents of your students have no idea who you are.  To put it into terms Americans can understand, it's like not knowing your kid's basketball coach is Shaquille ONeal.  Or something.  

@Not_a_Numberplease don't undersell your contributions! You and the people who do the same work as you are considered Legends by many (I figured out who you were from context clues):  I have taken my son to meet some of these Legends due to where I live, hoping that meeting them might motivate him and he always feels elated as if he had met a Basketball or Soccer superstar. I even told him last night that you are so kind as to offer to read through a proof for him if he needs feedback in the future and he couldn't believe it!

I remember the times when IMO winners were invited to the Whitehouse and the President comparing their achievements to that of Michael Phelps or Ussain Bolt ... 🙂

 

[lewelma]

Well you can either influence many people to a small extent, or very few in a profound way. Most people respect the first more, unfortunately. I have found that I am dismissed if I say I am a tutor and people change the subject. But if I say that I work with at-risk youth, people become very interested, ask lots of questions, and respect me more. It is all about how you sell it. 

So he is my elevator pitch for you: I am researching the best methods to teach mathematics to gifted and profoundly gifted youth.  I'm comparing the effectiveness of different methods across 3 different domains - high impact daily teaching, one-on-one weekly teaching, and online classroom teaching. I am interdisciplinary, merging learning theory with Information processing theory. I am also interested in self-regulated learning. I expect the research gathering stage to take about a decade, and I am still considering how to best to communicate my findings to make the biggest impact.  🙂

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Well you can either influence many people to a small extent, or very few in a profound way. Most people respect the first more, unfortunately. I have found that I am dismissed if I say I am a tutor and people change the subject. But if I say that I work with at-risk youth, people become very interested, ask lots of questions, and respect me more. It is all about how you sell it. 

So he is my elevator pitch for you: I am researching the best methods to teach mathematics to gifted and profoundly gifted youth.  I'm comparing the effectiveness of different methods across 3 different domains - high impact daily teaching, one-on-one weekly teaching, and online classroom teaching. I am interdisciplinary, merging learning theory with Information processing theory. I am also interested in self-regulated learning. I expect the research gathering stage to take about a decade, and I am still considering how to best to communicate my findings to make the biggest impact.  🙂

Hah. It's a lovely pitch. It might even be true. Who do I give it to? 😛 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

@Not_a_Numberplease don't undersell your contributions! You and the people who do the same work as you are considered Legends by many (I figured out who you were from context clues):  I have taken my son to meet some of these Legends due to where I live, hoping that meeting them might motivate him and he always feels elated as if he had met a Basketball or Soccer superstar. I even told him last night that you are so kind as to offer to read through a proof for him if he needs feedback in the future and he couldn't believe it!

I remember the times when IMO winners were invited to the Whitehouse and the President comparing their achievements to that of Michael Phelps or Ussain Bolt ... 🙂

Ah, yes, Canadian IMO kids weren't fancy enough for visits with politicians 😄. I sometimes felt kind of bitter I didn't live in the US, because the USAMO was always my best olympiad, so I would have had the chance had I lived here (although my chance of making it onto the actual team would have been much lower, so I should really count my blessings.) 

And I figure anyone can figure out who I am if they want to, to be honest. I don't think there are any other females with my biography, so I'd have to suppress a lot of information to stay anonymous. 

And the offer to take a look at his proofs totally stands 🙂.

[lewelma]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hah. It's a lovely pitch. It might even be true. Who do I give it to? 😛 

I've been paying attention! I think you need to start taking some detailed notes and keeping some of your kids' and tutor kids' work examples.  You have asked me before about what xxx looked like that I noticed in a student or my younger boy, and I couldn't remember the details. Start thinking more about the ramifications of what you are learning to helping a wider audience once you figure it all out. I think you have a real chance to make a difference in the field of gifted math education.  Most people of your mathematical level and intelligence are off doing math research, as you know. That means that the people doing research on gifted math teaching methods are just education researchers, and they don't get it like you do. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by lewelma

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

I've been paying attention! I think you need to start taking some detailed notes and keeping some of your kids' and tutor kids' work examples.  You have asked me before about what xxx looked like that I noticed in a student or my younger boy, and I couldn't remember the details. Start thinking more about the ramifications of what you are learning to helping a wider audience once you figure it all out. I think you have a real chance to make a difference in the field of gifted math education.  Most people of your mathematical level and intelligence are off doing math research, as you know. That means that the people doing gifted math research are just education researchers, and they don't get it like you do. 

Oh, yes, I am definitely keeping records and taking notes, and I actually do plan to make an app and a curriculum at some point. DH keeps telling me we could be rich in VC money, lol, since my story sounds very good. (He's been part of two start ups, so he does have experience.) 

But we should probably take my pity party to another thread, since we've derailed this one so conclusively... 

[lewelma]

I will add, that there are *very* few people who teach a single student for 12 years.  What you are learning from teaching your daughter is special and unusual. Don't underestimate the ramifications of what you learn. Sure she is just one kid, but that is called a case study. You don't need to do a double blind study to learn in any field. Deep study of a single case study leads to new knowledge in a different way. Different not lesser. 

[lewelma]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 we've derailed this one so conclusively... 

Definitely done that! But we seem to do it a lot.....

[EKS]

49 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think you have a real chance to make a difference in the field of gifted math education.

I agree with this!

[EKS]

51 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I will add, that there are *very* few people who teach a single student for 12 years.

This is so true!  I started to realize how important this was (and what a blind spot it is in the field of education) when I worked closely with a private middle and high school on revamping their curriculum.  It was major news to them that it might be better to think beyond one year increments.  

[lewelma]

Just now, EKS said:

This is so true!  I started to realize how important this was (and what a blind spot it is in the field of education) when I worked closely with a private middle and high school on revamping their curriculum.  It was major news to them that it might be better to think beyond one year increments.  

The stuff I have in my head is so different than what a silo-ed teacher has in her/his head. They teach 1 grade, and in high school 1 subject. I've taught every subject in every grade. My content knowledge about the progression is enormous, but I think undervalued. I considered doing my second career in learning theory, but decided that I could not make an impact given my background and limited time (I'll be 55 when I come out), so have decided instead to go into environmental geology, and remediate soil and rivers. If I could clean up just one river, I would feel like my retraining had meaning. I think that Not_a_Number is in a different situation because honestly her contest math career and gender make her an anomaly. I think she will be taken very seriously, as she is close to one of a kind in North America. 

[EKS]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

I've taught every subject in every grade. My content knowledge about the progression is enormous, but I think undervalued. I considered doing my second career in learning theory, but decided that I could not make an impact given my background and limited time (I'll be 55 when I come out)...

This--every word of it.  

[Not_a_Number]

53 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I think that Not_a_Number is in a different situation because honestly her contest math career and gender make her an anomaly. I think she will be taken very seriously, as she is close to one of a kind in North America. 

I hope that's true. I haven't felt very fancy in a long time 😕 . 

 

55 minutes ago, lewelma said:

The stuff I have in my head is so different than what a silo-ed teacher has in her/his head. They teach 1 grade, and in high school 1 subject.

I haven't taught every subject, but even having taught math from the early grades to college gives me a totally different perspective than anyone I know. Like, I aimed arithmetic at algebra, and I did so very successfully with DD8. I think this would be hard to do without experience teaching high school and college students. 

[SeaConquest]

Not a Number, for what it's worth, you are fancy to me. Rockstar, legend, and all of that! 🙂

Mathnerd, remind me again, how old is your DS?

Does anyone have an opinion on the classes at Awesome Math vs those at AoPS? I don't know anyone who has taken Awesome Math classes, but I have been curious.

I have set Alcumus at one down from Insanely Hard. Maybe I should bump it up. Insanely hard level of Alcumus when AoPS is already insanely hard seemed sadistic to me, but I'm a pushover. 

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

I finally am catching up on reading here and am glad for all the interesting and meandering posts.  It doesn't sound like I've been missing out on any super secret awesome programs that have popped up that I didn't know about :-).   

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, ChickaDeeDeeDee said:

I finally am catching up on reading here and am glad for all the interesting and meandering posts.  It doesn't sound like I've been missing out on any super secret awesome programs that have popped up that I didn't know about :-).   

I don't think you have, no! You asked for deep programs, and all you got was my existential angst 😉 . 

[ChickaDeeDeeDee]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think you have, no! You asked for deep programs, and all you got was my existential angst 😉 . 

I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear.  I wasn't asking for deep programs.  I thought I had missed some information about programs they consider "deep" and was trying to understand what they were.  

About angst: Answers aren't compulsory; life is not a proof.

[4KookieKids]

On 3/17/2021 at 7:58 PM, kirstenhill said:

The second "it" in that comment (The one you linked to) is a bit unclear.  I actually took the the "it" in the deeper sentence to be referring to the other program being discussed in the thread (EMF).  I read it as saying essentially, "Among all the programs that could be described as 'deeper', EMF is on par or less deep." -  Rather than the opposite implication that AoPS is the "on par or less-deep" program.  Hopefully @4KookieKids can stop by this thread to clarify. 

So sorry that I didn’t see this for so long! And I’m also so sorry for the confusion my comment caused!

 

All that I actually meant, is that among the ‘Deeper’ math options that involve classes and not just text book learning, EMF seemed about on par PRICE wise with many other options. The quoted sentence from me came right after a discussion on how it seemed a bit pricey to me.

Edited March 30, 2021 by 4KookieKids

[4KookieKids]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:40 PM, SeaConquest said:

I have set Alcumus at one down from Insanely Hard. Maybe I should bump it up. Insanely hard level of Alcumus when AoPS is already insanely hard seemed sadistic to me, but I'm a pushover. 

I went ahead and put ds at insanely hard for his Algebra book that he's working through. I did it with preA initially a few years ago, and he couldn't handle all the perceived "failure." Now that he has matured a bit more and also understands it a bit more, and how the challenge is part of the "fun", he's handling "insanely hard" like a champ and really enjoying it. 

[SeaConquest]

1 hour ago, 4KookieKids said:

I went ahead and put ds at insanely hard for his Algebra book that he's working through. I did it with preA initially a few years ago, and he couldn't handle all the perceived "failure." Now that he has matured a bit more and also understands it a bit more, and how the challenge is part of the "fun", he's handling "insanely hard" like a champ and really enjoying it. 

I think I will bump it up on the stuff that he has already covered. I am not sure that I will do it for the classes that he is currently in. People have said that the Intermediate Algebra class was brutal when Alcumus was included, so they dropped it. I doubt I will be mean enough to add it back in at the Insanely Hard level -- at least, not until he is well past that level and is, perhaps, prepping for a competition or something.

[4KookieKids]

14 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I think I will bump it up on the stuff that he has already covered. I am not sure that I will do it for the classes that he is currently in. People have said that the Intermediate Algebra class was brutal when Alcumus was included, so they dropped it. I doubt I will be mean enough to add it back in at the Insanely Hard level -- at least, not until he is well past that level and is, perhaps, prepping for a competition or something.

Ah, so one big difference is that we do it at home only (no online class)- so he has all the time he needs with no pressure to “finish.” I think my kids would lose their marbles if they had to work in that kind of online class environment... lol EF is still not strong enough for that over here, but hopefully one day!! 🙂

[GracieJane]

On 3/20/2021 at 4:53 AM, Not_a_Number said:

Not a ton, and not the hardest ones. At least, not the books I’ve used. Which books do you mean?

 

Yeah, test prep is a thriving industry here, too. I’m not arguing there’s anything magic about the AMC and AIME! They are relatively straightforward contests if you know the concepts well (although the concepts aren’t the standard high school stuff.)

 

It’s not the proof-writing that’s the issue, lol. It’s the caliber of the problems. They don’t require the creativity that hard Olympiad problems do.

Look, I teach out of the AoPS books and I was also a serious IMO and Putnam person. I like the AoPS books, but they don’t prepare you sufficiently for that type of contest. They don’t provide enough of the “ah-ha!” moment for that. When they are hard, it’s mostly because you haven’t internalized an idea, not because a totally new angle is required. Olympiad problems are a different kind of beast.

This is so interesting! What would you say is the best path to Olympiad? I thought Mathcounts was the natural predecessor.

[Not_a_Number]

12 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

This is so interesting! What would you say is the best path to Olympiad? I thought Mathcounts was the natural predecessor.

Which Olympiads do you mean? 🙂 

[GracieJane]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Which Olympiads do you mean? 🙂 

Sorry, math. In our local school, Mathcounts is for the grades younger than AMC8. My child is in early elementary, so I always thought the math competitions were progressive, like Kangaroo > Mathcounts > US Olympiad. 

[Not_a_Number]

42 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

Sorry, math. In our local school, Mathcounts is for the grades younger than AMC8. My child is in early elementary, so I always thought the math competitions were progressive, like Kangaroo > Mathcounts > US Olympiad. 

Is that a specific contest? Because I meant, like, higher level math contests like the USA Math Olympiad, which you get to after the AMC10/12 and then the AIME.

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, GracieJane said:

Sorry, math. In our local school, Mathcounts is for the grades younger than AMC8. My child is in early elementary, so I always thought the math competitions were progressive, like Kangaroo > Mathcounts > US Olympiad. 

MOEMS? Sometimes I have see local schools referring to MOEMS as "Math Olympiad".

[daijobu]

35 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

MOEMS? Sometimes I have see local schools referring to MOEMS as "Math Olympiad".

MOEMS is terrific for elementary students.  It's only 5 questions, takes a half hour, so most younger kids have the attention span required to take the exam and then spend 20 minutes discussing the problems.  If you register officially, they will send you a nice package of certificates, pins, patches and a trophy.  They range between apathetic to vaguely distasteful about homeschoolers, but are generally easy to deal with.  

[Not_a_Number]

52 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

MOEMS? Sometimes I have see local schools referring to MOEMS as "Math Olympiad".

Ah, I wonder if that's it. Thanks! 

[mathnerd]

46 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah, I wonder if that's it. Thanks! 

My local elementary school used to hang large banners near their entrance about their "Olympiad" winners every year. Considering the pressure cooker atmosphere where I live, I checked to make sure that they did not mean the MOP 😉

 

[GracieJane]

20 hours ago, mathnerd said:

My local elementary school used to hang large banners near their entrance about their "Olympiad" winners every year. Considering the pressure cooker atmosphere where I live, I checked to make sure that they did not mean the MOP 😉

 

Yes! Our local school lists math “Olympiad” winners, I didn’t realize there is more than one? I guess it’s MOEMS. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, GracieJane said:

Yes! Our local school lists math “Olympiad” winners, I didn’t realize there is more than one? I guess it’s MOEMS. 

Ah-ha, makes sense. 

So, I'm just using the words in a different way. There's a whole tier of proof-based contests that are called "math olympiads." For example, the USA Math Olympiad (USAMO) is the test you get to take if you do well on the AMC 10 or 12, and then get invited to the American Invitational Math Examination (AIME), and then do well enough on that to have a high enough combined AMC and AIME score to get invited to the USAMO. 

The USAMO is written over two days and each day has only 3 questions that the kids have to solve over 4.5 hours. You not only need to find the answer -- you need to justify it with a proof. As you can imagine, since the kids have 1.5 hours per question, the questions are quite hard! Here's a recent USAMO: 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php/2019_USAMO_Problems

These are contests that require high levels of ingenuity and problem solving. So very different from the kinds of contests kids write in elementary schools! 

[GracieJane]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ah-ha, makes sense. 

So, I'm just using the words in a different way. There's a whole tier of proof-based contests that are called "math olympiads." For example, the USA Math Olympiad (USAMO) is the test you get to take if you do well on the AMC 10 or 12, and then get invited to the American Invitational Math Examination (AIME), and then do well enough on that to have a high enough combined AMC and AIME score to get invited to the USAMO. 

The USAMO is written over two days and each day has only 3 questions that the kids have to solve over 4.5 hours. You not only need to find the answer -- you need to justify it with a proof. As you can imagine, since the kids have 1.5 hours per question, the questions are quite hard! Here's a recent USAMO: 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/wiki/index.php/2019_USAMO_Problems

These are contests that require high levels of ingenuity and problem solving. So very different from the kinds of contests kids write in elementary schools! 

Thank you for the explanation! This is very interesting, I never knew so many math contests existed. These young people must be very gifted!

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, GracieJane said:

Thank you for the explanation! This is very interesting, I never knew so many math contests existed. These young people must be very gifted!

It was my thing in high school, so that's how I know 🙂 . 

[drjuliadc]

On 3/21/2021 at 1:10 PM, Not_a_Number said:

I think I'm partially just responding to the feeling that my accomplishments no longer feel like they count for much 😕 . Way back when, I had the top score on my IMO team... but since getting my Ph.D, I've basically dropped out of sight. To be fair, I dropped out of sight because I've always wanted to raise my kids myself, and because I didn't want to be an academic... but apparently that doesn't make it sting any less. I've watched IMO teammates become professors and here I am, teaching little kids, without really any status or accomplishments I can show anyone 

I am super impressed with women who take parenting and educating their children seriously, like a lot of them who hang out on this board.

Achieving a lot of anything before having kids only makes you a better parent or educator of your own children.

Jackie O said something like, “What difference do your accomplishments in life make if you mess up raising your kids.” I wasn’t particularly impressed with her (that was my own ignorance) until I heard she said that.

“Jobs that are traditionally done by women are universally underpaid and under appreciated.” That was a quote from my mother and one reason I chose a field dominated by men. 

I thought that was an extremely insightful and helpful observation my mother shared with me when I was young.  I was surprised I never heard that before or since.

Of course I still chose a profession that was under appreciated by the masses, especially 35 years ago, when I started on that career path. That never bothered me.  I do enjoy being universally appreciated by my patients.

I only worked 1/2 a day per week once I started having kids and now only work away from home 1 1/2 days per week. I like 1/2 a day per week better.

It was my Jewish college roommate (2nd Jewish person I had ever met in my life) who shared with me how women in her culture almost always stayed home with their kids. It made me stop and think of the wisdom in that.

[Not_a_Number]

40 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

It was my Jewish college roommate (2nd Jewish person I had ever met in my life) who shared with me how women in her culture almost always stayed home with their kids. It made me stop and think of the wisdom in that.

Hah, that's funny to me. (I'm Jewish.) I've never thought of myself as a cultural curiosity... 

Thanks for your post 🙂 . I'm not feeling as angsty at the moment... just something that sneaks up on me occasionally. I do hope I can do something other than educate my kids at some point, but I'd like it to be compatible with educating my kids!