What do you think of this PS attendance policy?

[SKL]

My kids have been on "hybrid" learning since January 15.  There are two "cohorts," each of which attends 2 days in person.  The 2 days when Cohort A is in person, Cohort B is supposed to log into each class at its start time each day, only for the teacher to "take attendance."  Then Cohort B is free to prioritize the day's independent work as they like (deadlines are usually 11:59pm or next day).

So suppose a kid is busy doing something and forgets to log into English class at the start time.  The grade book shows "Absent" (or "Tardy" if the kid logs in at a later time during the class period and emails the teacher to that effect).  Some or all teachers have grade penalties for failure to log in for attendance and then log out.

Does this make any sense at all?  What is the point of taking attendance when the cohort is at home, and is this really the way to do it?  Should I say something?

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids have been on "hybrid" learning since January 15.  There are two "cohorts," each of which attends 2 days in person.  The 2 days when Cohort A is in person, Cohort B is supposed to log into each class at its start time each day, only for the teacher to "take attendance."  Then Cohort B is free to prioritize the day's independent work as they like (deadlines are usually 11:59pm or next day).

So suppose a kid is busy doing something and forgets to log into English class at the start time.  The grade book shows "Absent" (or "Tardy" if the kid logs in at a later time during the class period and emails the teacher to that effect).  Some or all teachers have grade penalties for failure to log in for attendance and then log out.

Does this make any sense at all?  What is the point of taking attendance when the cohort is at home, and is this really the way to do it?  Should I say something?

Well, as a parent who used a virtual school from 1-12th grade for  my son all I can say is you have to learn to play the game.  

[MEmama]

It’s similar at my sons high school, though kids doing school virtually are active participants in class. One day of the week the entire school is virtual and they still log in.

I think the reason for virtual attendance is to keep kids accountable.

[Ailaena]

It’s a way to keep the kids on some semblance of a schedule.  It’s also a hope that now that they’re thinking about the class, they’ll maybe they’ll do the work.

I could also argue it’s accountability: You don’t have to be in class, but at least log in.

[katilac]

Schools receive money based on attendance, so that is not going to change.

Attendance and tardies are also metrics by which schools are evaluated, so it's paperwork they are required to keep in god order. 

Tell Alexa or Siri to remind them to log in at the correct start time, lol. 

[KungFuPanda]

Reminder alarms are SO easy to set that it wouldn't be worth taking on The System.

[MEmama]

My DS was at the doctor yesterday and she mentioned how few kids have any schedules at all right now. She was impressed with his regular sleep/wake routine and said that’s actually not common right now;  that kids are just all over the place, time literally has no meaning at all. I imagine schools are trying anything they can to force some semblance of normality for their students.

There are no right answers. 😞 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

It’s similar at my sons high school, though kids doing school virtually are active participants in class. One day of the week the entire school is virtual and they still log in.

I think the reason for virtual attendance is to keep kids accountable.

I could totally see the point if there was actual teaching or any substantive info sharing when they logged in.  But there isn't.  All the assignments etc. are done electronically.

Accountability for homework, they can enforce by placing deadlines on the homework.

I don't see the point of accountability for the attendance check.  I mean what substantive reason is there for logging in at 1:40 to say "I just logged in, yay" and then log off?  Isn't this also a waste of the teacher's time?

[katilac]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I mean what substantive reason is there for logging in at 1:40 to say "I just logged in, yay" and then log off?  Isn't this also a waste of the teacher's time?

Money. The main reason is money. It's automated, so no great waste of teacher time - definitely much quicker than taking attendance in person. 

[SKL]

You're probably right that it won't do any good to argue against this.

It just burns me if my kids get a lower grade because of something so dumb.  They are writing the essays, reading the books, finishing the math problems, taking the quizzes, doing the virtual labs etc etc., but oops, forgot to log in for one of the 6 daily attendance checks.  Stupid!

If they think this is keeping my kids on a good schedule, they are sadly mistaken.  At least one of my kids is logging in, setting an alarm, taking a nap, and logging in again, from 7:50 to noon.  Then staying up until midnight to finish the homework.  I would have done exactly the same thing.  (The other kid is playing electronic games throughout much of the "school day.")

Edited March 9, 2021 by SKL

[SKL]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

Money. The main reason is money. It's automated, so no great waste of teacher time - definitely much quicker than taking attendance in person. 

It's actually not automated.  The classroom teacher has to take time away from Cohort A to take attendance for Cohort B every class period.

[katilac]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's actually not automated.  The classroom teacher has to take time away from Cohort A to take attendance for Cohort B every class period.

Oh, I guess they want to verify it's the student. Regardless, the school gets money based on attendance, so that is not going to change. Reminders are the way to go.

[City Mouse]

Can you send an email to the teacher saying that he forgot to log in? Would that then count as an excused absence?

The school probably has to follow the attendance rules set by the school board and/or the state, so there is no point in you saying anything. 
 

[Miss Tick]

I thought it was the money aspect too, but 1) that would only need to be done once a day and 2) aren't your dd's in private school?

I think it is a stupid policy, but i wouldn't bother complaining.

[Danae]

I think it’s a dumb policy. Have them log in once for “home room” and then let them get on with their work.  Having to stop what you’re doing every 50 minutes to log in to the next class is disruptive to the people who are doing work and doesn’t do anything to keep the people who aren’t on track.

Some schools seem determined to eliminate the only advantages that virtual learning has, like getting to set your own schedule.

[HS Mom in NC]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

So suppose a kid is busy doing something and forgets to log into English class at the start time.  The grade book shows "Absent" (or "Tardy" if the kid logs in at a later time during the class period and emails the teacher to that effect).  Some or all teachers have grade penalties for failure to log in for attendance and then log out.

Does this make any sense at all?  What is the point of taking attendance when the cohort is at home, and is this really the way to do it?  Should I say something?

Well, in life in general we know all of us can get immersed something and  lose track of time, but we still expect people to get to things on time.  We wear watches, set timers, create reminders, etc. all the time to avoid that problem.  I don't see how this one situation is any different than all the others in life.

What other option would a school have for recording attendance for virtual students?  They're already dealing with not having control over the physical environment children are learning in, and there have been ongoing issues with public school kids at home falling through the cracks and not attending virtually for a full day's studies. Those are kids who need accountability throughout the day.  That's so much bigger a problem than the kids prone to getting absorbed in their studies having to set a timer and log in for attendance in each class throughout the day.

Institutional schools are group settings.  In group settings decisions are made based on what works best for the group, not the individual, and the lowest common denominator is going to have more weight in which policies are implemented.

[catz]

I might says something approaching the end of the semester if I thought it was significantly going to affect my kid's grade.  But I'd probably just help my kid get on in time if needed.  Some hoops you jump through in high school are inane.  I don't deny it is silly if they aren't getting on for a lecture or something like that.  But I could also see having regular check ins helping some teens stay on task.  

[73349]

Even a private school has a legal obligation to verify attendance, at least here--the principal is required to notify authorities if a student is truant.

We would do alarms here. I mean, we do them even for things like scouts and church meetings on Zoom.

[SKL]

I mean what does "absent" even mean in this context?  "Present" means "wherever I am with a Chromebook open."  "Absent" means "same location and probably doing the same thing."

I dunno, I've always hated arbitrary requirements.  Good thing I'm not in high school right now, because I'd probably refuse to do any of this just out of protest.  😛

[SKL]

My kids are in public school for high school.

Last year, when we finished out the year virtual in private school, they "took attendance" by requiring every kid to log into their Google Classroom for Religion by 6pm.  They had to answer a brief question like "what is something you are thankful for today."

It's possible the state has decided that once-daily check-ins don't cut it.  I could definitely see requiring them to log into every one of their Google Classrooms every day.  But being arbitrary about the time is stupid.

[2squared]

When my higher schooler is virtual, he has to login for various classes as well. If he forgets or has a technology issue, I send an email to the teacher. We’ve only had an issue once or twice, and I have emailed his teachers immediately. His teachers have not marked him tardy or absent those times.

He does have alarms on his phone so he checks in at the correct times, and I would expect him to figure out a method to check in as expected. I know the school is trying to provide structure and contact points for the kids. My kid doesn’t need it, but many of them do need it.

I will say he is a straight-A varsity athlete in a small school. I do not know how or if that impacts his situation. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by 2squared

[vonfirmath]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kids are in public school for high school.

Last year, when we finished out the year virtual in private school, they "took attendance" by requiring every kid to log into their Google Classroom for Religion by 6pm.  They had to answer a brief question like "what is something you are thankful for today."

It's possible the state has decided that once-daily check-ins don't cut it.  I could definitely see requiring them to log into every one of their Google Classrooms every day.  But being arbitrary about the time is stupid.

Here, virtual school NOW looks much different than last Spring (and I'm thankful because they really learned nothing then. They "marked time") OVer the summer, the state decided what would be required and the schools determined how to actually move education forward

So eeven without the kids being at different schools I expect things now to be different than then.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by vonfirmath

[Library Momma]

My son has gone back to full in person, but when they were hybrid he had to log in every period for attendance when it was his cohort's virtual day.  He still had to participate in each class just like the students there in person.  He had to take notes on the lessons, take quizzes and test, participate in discussions, etc.  If you aren't actually in those classes on those virtual days aren't you missing half of what is being taught?

And daily attendance has nothing to do with public school funding in many places.

 

[SKL]

38 minutes ago, Library Momma said:

My son has gone back to full in person, but when they were hybrid he had to log in every period for attendance when it was his cohort's virtual day.  He still had to participate in each class just like the students there in person.  He had to take notes on the lessons, take quizzes and test, participate in discussions, etc.  If you aren't actually in those classes on those virtual days aren't you missing half of what is being taught?

And daily attendance has nothing to do with public school funding in many places.

 

They are giving "independent work" for the days when the kids aren't in physical school.

When it was all virtual, they had actual classes each period, but I guess they decided that wasn't feasible with some kids in the room and others on live video.

[Sherry in OH]

My children's virtual days are usually synchronous.  They must login to their classrooms on time and participate.  If they are ill or have technical difficulties, I have to notify the school office and affected teachers within a set timeframe.  Otherwise it is an unexcused absence.  

On asynchronous days they do not have to log in during their class times but they are responsible for any assignments posted that day.  Some teachers do not post assignments until their scheduled class times.

 

 

 

[vonfirmath]

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

They are giving "independent work" for the days when the kids aren't in physical school.

When it was all virtual, they had actual classes each period, but I guess they decided that wasn't feasible with some kids in the room and others on live video.

Every one of my son's classes runs this way -- a few kids in person. Everyone else virtual. And different classes are running it differently.

On Zoom days, everyone logs on to computer at the same time (even those in person) and zooms together. This has proven to be very good when the teacher has had to quarantine. He still teaches his entire class -- just from home instead of the classroom. On non-zoom days they have work to complete.  But the in person work is different from the virtual work.

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by vonfirmath

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Every one of my son's classes runs this way -- a few kids in person. Everyone else virtual. And different classes are running it differently.

On Zoom days, everyone logs on to computer at the same time (even those in person) and zooms together. This has proven to be very good when the teacher has had to quarantine. He still teaches his entire class -- just from home instead of the classroom. On non-zoom days they have work to complete.  But the in person work is different from the virtual work.

 

Yeah, I could see how that would work with some classes, but not others.  For example, if the biology teacher wants to do labs, the band teacher wants to practice music, the cooking teacher wants kids to cook .... I also think the mixed format would not work great for Algebra.  Even if everyone could see and hear what the teacher was doing, the teacher can't see who is getting it and who isn't.  Not that "independent learning" is a fix for any of that.

Really can't wait to get back to full time in-person school.  Ours is supposed to start on March 22, and hopefully, these silly issues will soon be irrelevant.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I mean what does "absent" even mean in this context?  "Present" means "wherever I am with a Chromebook open."  "Absent" means "same location and probably doing the same thing."

I dunno, I've always hated arbitrary requirements.  Good thing I'm not in high school right now, because I'd probably refuse to do any of this just out of protest.  😛

This isn't arbitrary. This is as close as they can get to in person attendance practices in a virtual context. This is also a good, easy opportunity to teach your child how to meet deadlines and keep track of effectively juggling multiple responsibilities. A stunning number of adults don't know how to do this effectively on a regular basis.

I think you're in a homeschool mindset (customized education in an individual setting) while you have a child enrolled in public school (mass produced education in a  group setting.) A group setting (institutional school) run and regulated by a 3rd party (the state government) is your child's education reality. Don't expect personalized or customized practices from an institution that is neither willing nor able to do so.  If you want your child's education customized and/or individualized to your personal references, you have to homeschool. In other words, don't order French food at the Mexican restaurant; they don't do that there.

I had to have this discussion when my K-12 homeschooled older kids started community college at 15 and 17.  I had to explain hoop jumping, bureaucracies, and inefficiencies that come with government regulated institutions that taxpayers pick up the tab for.  It really is a completely different world.

I also had to shift my thinking when my youngest attended 2 day a week enrichment school for homeschoolers at a public school.  The only decision I made in that context was in or out. All the other decisions were made by the institution's staff because they had the responsibility of providing the education in a way that met government regulations and what worked best for them and the students as a whole in their group setting. It's not surprising it wouldn't have worked best for homeschooling at my house.

[Ellie]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

My kids have been on "hybrid" learning since January 15.  There are two "cohorts," each of which attends 2 days in person.  The 2 days when Cohort A is in person, Cohort B is supposed to log into each class at its start time each day, only for the teacher to "take attendance."  Then Cohort B is free to prioritize the day's independent work as they like (deadlines are usually 11:59pm or next day).

So suppose a kid is busy doing something and forgets to log into English class at the start time.  The grade book shows "Absent" (or "Tardy" if the kid logs in at a later time during the class period and emails the teacher to that effect).  Some or all teachers have grade penalties for failure to log in for attendance and then log out.

Does this make any sense at all?  What is the point of taking attendance when the cohort is at home, and is this really the way to do it?  Should I say something?

It's the rule. Don't obey the rule=consequences. The only thing you should say is that you'll do a better job of making sure the Cohorts check in on time.

[vonfirmath]

34 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah, I could see how that would work with some classes, but not others.  For example, if the biology teacher wants to do labs, the band teacher wants to practice music, the cooking teacher wants kids to cook .... I also think the mixed format would not work great for Algebra.  Even if everyone could see and hear what the teacher was doing, the teacher can't see who is getting it and who isn't.  Not that "independent learning" is a fix for any of that.

Really can't wait to get back to full time in-person school.  Ours is supposed to start on March 22, and hopefully, these silly issues will soon be irrelevant.

My son is taking Geometry in this format. (In fact it is the geometry teacher that had to quarantine and continued to teach from online -- he's a HS teacher who comes over to the MS just to teach this class so he's had more exposure than most).

 

It's not ideal but it works.

My son is not taking band this year (his band was the same period as his English class -- and there is only one English class at his level so he had to drop band) He is "After schooling" band -- and able to do it this year unlike most because they are using SmartMusic and recording to accomodate virtual students.

 

For his karate class, he's definitely getting more practice in person than the kids who are virtual.

For art (What he was placed in when the scheduled proved impossible for band), she has different assignments for the in person students and those online.

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

Our school district just requires students to answer attendance questions each day at any time (plus do the work). I get why a district would have a schedule and want kids to login when classes start, but I like that our district is flexible. Not all kids are home all day--for example, they may have childcare but the care won't "do school." So the kids can go in and answer the questions when their parents get off work later, and it's not counted against them.  

[Danae]

1 hour ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

This isn't arbitrary. This is as close as they can get to in person attendance practices in a virtual context. This is also a good, easy opportunity to teach your child how to meet deadlines and keep track of effectively juggling multiple responsibilities. A stunning number of adults don't know how to do this effectively on a regular basis.

I think you're in a homeschool mindset (customized education in an individual setting) while you have a child enrolled in public school (mass produced education in a  group setting.) A group setting (institutional school) run and regulated by a 3rd party (the state government) is your child's education reality. Don't expect personalized or customized practices from an institution that is neither willing nor able to do so.  If you want your child's education customized and/or individualized to your personal references, you have to homeschool. In other words, don't order French food at the Mexican restaurant; they don't do that there.

I had to have this discussion when my K-12 homeschooled older kids started community college at 15 and 17.  I had to explain hoop jumping, bureaucracies, and inefficiencies that come with government regulated institutions that taxpayers pick up the tab for.  It really is a completely different world.

I also had to shift my thinking when my youngest attended 2 day a week enrichment school for homeschoolers at a public school.  The only decision I made in that context was in or out. All the other decisions were made by the institution's staff because they had the responsibility of providing the education in a way that met government regulations and what worked best for them and the students as a whole in their group setting. It's not surprising it wouldn't have worked best for homeschooling at my house.

I'm not evaluating this with a homeschool mindset, I'm evaluating it as a teacher who has taught online synchronous, online asynchronous, and in-person classes.  

This policy is dumb.  The kids are getting an asynchronous class but have to log in at six specific times per day for no pedagogical reason whatsoever. If you care that students are doing things at specific times then run a synchronous class.  If they're assigned independent work on their virtual days then let them work independently. 

[QueenCat]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

My kids have been on "hybrid" learning since January 15.  There are two "cohorts," each of which attends 2 days in person.  The 2 days when Cohort A is in person, Cohort B is supposed to log into each class at its start time each day, only for the teacher to "take attendance."  Then Cohort B is free to prioritize the day's independent work as they like (deadlines are usually 11:59pm or next day).

So suppose a kid is busy doing something and forgets to log into English class at the start time.  The grade book shows "Absent" (or "Tardy" if the kid logs in at a later time during the class period and emails the teacher to that effect).  Some or all teachers have grade penalties for failure to log in for attendance and then log out.

Does this make any sense at all?  What is the point of taking attendance when the cohort is at home, and is this really the way to do it?  Should I say something?

That's how it works here. Since these days count as school days, they have to show attendance. I think it's reasonable. Teachers have to show they tried to reach the student if they didn't come to morning meeting. This takes up time that the teacher shouldn't have to use but the state requires attendance numbers for a variety of reasons.

[SKL]

Now I'm wondering how they justify the fact that the kids have never had to log in on Mondays all year long.

[Melissa Louise]

It's dumb, but when did that ever stop a school? 

I would BURN as a student if I'd missed roll call and then had my grade for actual work completed and handed in reduced because of it. Pettiness like that just made me despise school.

It's more pernicious the way they are doing it, imo. Students face far greater distractions and stressors atm, parents are working, regardless of being at home, and for a student with any form of EF, remembering to log in at a random time to say 'here!', rather than once at the start of day, would be a nightmare. 

Sadly, school won't care, and for a quiet life, just help dd set phone reminders for herself 5 minutes before she has to log on for her pointless 'here' (where?!)

 

[Tanaqui]

Look, nobody likes stupid hoop-jumping, but if you complain about this particular thing you're going to annoy the administration to no good purpose. Sometimes it's good to push back against ridiculous rules, but in this case - just show your kids how to set the automatic timer on their phones or watches and call it a day.

[Anne]

My daughter is teaching virtually in a public school, and getting students to DO their work has been a huge challenge.   So many of her kids are having trouble with the material and the lessons BUT they refuse to come to her office hours or ask for any kind of help. Many of her parents seem to be unable to get their children to do either of those things.  I can see how a mandatory check-in time would make a lot of sense for a lot of kids.

Anne

[SanDiegoMom]

We have attendance but it's for very low points compared to the rest of the assignments. So 1 point per day, while assignments are 5 or 10 points.

[Storygirl]

http://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Reset-and-Restart/Blended-and-Remote-Learning-Comparison/Attendance-Considerations-for-Remote-Learning-Plan

I found this online. It says that districts have to report attendance to the state by the hour, but that states are not required to take attendance hourly and can set up their own systems for how to do this. So that's pretty clear LOL.

[Xahm]

As I understand it, our local high school takes attendance, but it can be met by a list of things: turning in an assignment counts, participating in a Zoom counts, sending an email saying "help, I'm having tech issues" and following whatever instructions are then given counts. Other things, too, but I don't remember what. They just want to see engagement.

[Shoeless]

It's a dumb rule, but school is fun of dumb rules that benefit people other than the students. It's what you agree to when you send your kids to school. 😑

[Guest]

10 hours ago, SKL said:

You're probably right that it won't do any good to argue against this.

It just burns me if my kids get a lower grade because of something so dumb.  They are writing the essays, reading the books, finishing the math problems, taking the quizzes, doing the virtual labs etc etc., but oops, forgot to log in for one of the 6 daily attendance checks.  Stupid!

If they think this is keeping my kids on a good schedule, they are sadly mistaken.  At least one of my kids is logging in, setting an alarm, taking a nap, and logging in again, from 7:50 to noon.  Then staying up until midnight to finish the homework.  I would have done exactly the same thing.  (The other kid is playing electronic games throughout much of the "school day.")

For my kid’s school, if he forgets to log in, the school sends me notice. It has actually only happened once, just a week or two ago. 

In our case, though, there is an “in class” portion to every class. They are trying to keep it as routine as possible because kids will do what is routine more readily. 

[2squared]

I also wanted to add...in my full time day job, I have meetings throughout the day. It’s my responsibility to show up on time, regardless of how involved I am in another work task. Checking in for high school classes seems a lot like the real world. 

[SKL]

34 minutes ago, 2squared said:

I also wanted to add...in my full time day job, I have meetings throughout the day. It’s my responsibility to show up on time, regardless of how involved I am in another work task. Checking in for high school classes seems a lot like the real world. 

In my work life, if I have nothing to contribute to or learn from a meeting, I decline to attend.  Going to a meeting just to check it off the list is not an example of good time management IMO.

I do agree that it's not a big deal to make the kids set alarms etc.  I just think it's wrong to dock their grade for something so stupid.

But I'm rebellious that way.  I regularly missed homeroom because it was 5 minutes of nothing.  And I served detentions for that.  But it didn't affect my grades.

[2squared]

On 3/9/2021 at 9:41 PM, SKL said:

In my work life, if I have nothing to contribute to or learn from a meeting, I decline to attend.  Going to a meeting just to check it off the list is not an example of good time management IMO.

I do agree that it's not a big deal to make the kids set alarms etc.  I just think it's wrong to dock their grade for something so stupid.

But I'm rebellious that way.  I regularly missed homeroom because it was 5 minutes of nothing.  And I served detentions for that.  But it didn't affect my grades.

In my work world, my time is owned by my employer. I do have obligations pushed down from those above me in the food chain, regardless of my personal thoughts about such obligations. I have examples of such things beyond my work life too. While these obligations are not beneficial for me, they are beneficial for most/many of the participants.

High school has rules for the majority, not for the individual, and I think it is much like the post-high school world. We coach our kids to know when they should fall in line and play the game and when they don’t need to comply.
 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Any particular workplace is not compulsory though; if the rules are too idiotic, you can walk away. 

Children and teens have no such freedom, which is why schools are just petty to penalize someone WHO DID THE WORK for forgetting some pointless, random on-line hand raising exercise. 

Making kids jump through meaningless hoops is never a great way to compulsorily educate.