Looking for workload advice for advanced student

[SeaConquest]

My son and I are trying to settle on his schedule for next year, but we are looking for advice on his workload for his courses for the next two years. We are seeking BTDT advice from the more experienced boardies because both he and I have a tendency to be overly enthusiastic and take on too much, only to have to cut back later on (which ends up costing $$$ in dropped classes).

He will take his first AP exam in May (AP Computer Science A). He tends not to be a good high-stakes test taker, so we have no idea how he will do, honestly. He had a nearly 100% average on the all of the "lab" and "research" assignments in the class -- i.e., the actual coding aspects of the class -- and then bombed the quizzes, mid-term, and final because those were all multiple choice questions under a time pressure. That brought his overall grade in the course down to a B. He has accommodations for the test, so we are hoping that he will feel less test anxiety, but I am still concerned about the multiple choice part of the test. 

We have planned out a study schedule for the next 10 weeks, using YouTube videos, Barrons prep book, and practice questions. If he totally bombs the test, he is under 13, so he doesn't need to keep the score, but it will likely be difficult to convince folks to move him into the next Java course (data structures) without an AP test score (relying just on the AP grade alone), especially given his age, which is why he decided to take the test to validate his learning. 

 

For next year (7th), he is looking at taking the following:

Math: AoPS Intermediate Algebra (Fall), AoPS PreCalculus (Spring)

Science: Intro to Aviation & Airspace (Fall Community College), Aviation Meteorology (Spring Community College)

English: Integritas Literature & Composition (lower high school level -- full year course)

Social Science: ?? (maybe PA HS AP Macro or Community College Macro -- Fall, Online G3 Adv Micro Econ -- Spring)

Elective: We are hoping that SOHS will allow him to take Data Structures, which is a post-AP CS course

Extracurrics: Guitar, PE, Civil Air Patrol, science competitions, Bar Mitzvah

 

For 8th, he is looking at taking the following:

Math: AoPS AP Calculus BC

Science: SOHS AP Chemistry (or PA HS)

English: Composition & Reading (Fall Community College), Critical Thinking, Composition, & Lit (Spring Community College)

Social Science: ?? (maybe Learning Beyond the Page Global Issues -- Fall, Outschool Leadership/Debate -- Spring)

Elective: Human Factors (Fall Community College), Group Dynamics (Spring Community College)

Extracurrics: Guitar, PE, Civil Air Patrol, science competitions

 

We were thinking of doing AP Macro and Online G3 Adv Micro econ in 8th, but that seems like a lot of AP tests for a 8th grader, and some pretty heavy duty classes. We were also thinking of doing Learning Outside the Box Global Issues and some Outschool Leadership and Debate classes in 7th, but the owner of LOTB seemed concerned about having a 7th grader in the Global Issues course because of maturity issues (mixing a middle school student with high schoolers in a class that relies heavily on simulation and group activities). She left it up to me, but since she knows her course best, I really want to take this feedback from her to heart. His classes in 7th seem easier, so I was wondering if you all think it makes sense for him to do AP econ in 7th and save the lighter Global Issues/Leadership/Debate classes for 8th, which would also give him an additional year of maturity.

 

What do you think about this workload for an advanced STEM student? We are really trying to get this right, so we appreciate BTDT advice.

[mathnerd]

How many hours of homework per day is he able to handle at his age? Personally, that would be the main deciding factor for me before I planned a lot of rigorous courses. If he is able to put in 3 hours a day of homework time, then, does your course load require more time than that or not? That would be a good place to start.

[SeaConquest]

8 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

How many hours of homework per day is he able to handle at his age? Personally, that would be the main deciding factor for me before I planned a lot of rigorous courses. If he is able to put in 3 hours a day of homework time, then, does your course load require more time than that or not? That would be a good place to start.

Well, he basically wakes up at 9ish, eats, and starts his schoolwork around 10. He does whatever online classes he has that day, which is usually one or two, and then works throughout the day, taking breaks as needed. He usually has some afternoon physical activity/play time with friends/gaming and then may work again later in the evening if he still has work that needs to get done. He tends to stay up late, reading and gaming. So, we don't really have a demarcation for homework. He just attends class and does the required work. It is not uncommon for him to have to do some work on one weekend day, but mostly that's because he is pretty poky and doesn't work very efficiently. But, there are only so many hours in the week, you know? So, I want to make sure that this isn't too much. 

[Swimmer1112]

We usually start with a spreadsheet with the number of hours each class will take, ie a CC class is usually 1-2 hours of work for every hour you spend in lecture and AP classes are usually 6-12 hours a week depending on the AP. For example AP CS is one of the earliest and only took 4-6 hour a week for my dd2 and APUSH took up to 12 hours a week. Then we would add up the number of hours and see if it was reasonable amount of work. 
If your son is an ineffective worker I would pad the estimate, my dd1 has adhd and EF issues and always took longer to get her work done, even though she is a DYS. So we always assume she will take longer than typical to get her work done.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Marie.Sd

[lewelma]

Well, it looks like a lot to me. In our experience outside CC (and perhaps PA HS) courses suck time, and often with homework assignments that are long and not rigorous. Your son's math level is very high so he has time to slow down and dig deeper to develop stronger problem solving. AP exams force kids to memorize a ton of stuff without necessarily developing deep intuition. I would ask yourself if your son has the time to deeply internalize the work he is doing, as in my experience, these high level classes take more time to internalize than the time given in a class. 

I don't know if it would help you, but this is what my older boy did in 7th grade:

Math: AoPS geometry, intro combinatorics, intro number theory.

Science: Algebra based physics (that took 3 years to complete so 7th, 8th, 9th). Cover to cover reading of Scientific American

Social studies: Early Modern read alouds with his dad. Cover to cover reading of Economist and National Geographic. 

English: Writing with mom. Reading through the classics (25 that year)

Violin: 8th year with a tutor

Mandarin: 3rd year with a tutor

EC: string group, trio, badminton, martial arts, math camp.

---

I would step back and see if there is a class that your son would like to direct -- to design, manage, and implement on his own. I'm not sure if he is interested in top universities and those that give good scholarships, but they like to see self direction, not just being good at doing what you are told to do in a class. Not sure if this is helpful, but just thought I would let you know that your son does not need to push. He is ahead enough that there is definitely time for bunny trails and time for self reflection and study. 

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by lewelma

[MamaSprout]

I second what was said above. 

Also, even advanced kiddos sometimes have a rough go with puberty. There's a reason middle schools usually teach about a year and a half of material over 3 years, so try to have a mix of classes with deadlines/ high output and those without. Just sayin'. Some kids have no trouble at all, though. Some of my kids did, some cruised right through.

I would wait a year or two on the LOTB class. 

I've heard really mixed things about the AoPS Calc BC class. It has changed in the last couple of years, so don't trust older reviews.

Speed (especially typing) has been the limiting factor for us with AP coursework,

Edited March 9, 2021 by MamaSprout

[8filltheheart]

What is the end goal?  Is there a specific reason for checking off high school boxes in 7th and 8th grade? Are you considering 7th actually 9th?  I can't remember what exactly my advanced kids were studying in 7th and 8th beyond their areas of extreme interests.   We had no plan to graduate them early and middle school was a great time to just have fun exploring topics with zero pressure.  Middle school was a lot of fun.

I personally wouldn't have a 7th grader take the list you have posted for multiple reasons.  1--there are other things that they would probably find more interesting and 2--I don't want them to ever feel how you describe his experience: "He tends not to be a good high-stakes test taker, so we have no idea how he will do, honestly. He had a nearly 100% average on the all of the "lab" and "research" assignments in the class -- i.e., the actual coding aspects of the class -- and then bombed the quizzes, mid-term, and final because those were all multiple choice questions under a time pressure. That brought his overall grade in the course down to a B. He has accommodations for the test, so we are hoping that he will feel less test anxiety, but I am still concerned about the multiple choice part of the test. "  My kids don't take tests and this is one of the reasons why.   In 6th grade they would have no idea whether or not they could handle a high stakes test.  There is a lot of maturing that takes place between 12 and 18.  (My ds didn't likemath competitions bc he didn't like the pressure, so we dropped them. It didn't make 1 bit of difference in the long term and his reaching his objectives.  No pt in making them miserable to fit mold that isn't them.)

So looking at this:

Quote

Math: AoPS Intermediate Algebra (Fall), AoPS PreCalculus (Spring)

Science: Intro to Aviation & Airspace (Fall Community College), Aviation Meteorology (Spring Community College)

English: Integritas Literature & Composition (lower high school level -- full year course)

Social Science: ?? (maybe PA HS AP Macro or Community College Macro -- Fall, Online G3 Adv Micro Econ -- Spring)

Elective: We are hoping that SOHS will allow him to take Data Structures, which is a post-AP CS course

Extracurrics: Guitar, PE, Civil Air Patrol, science competitions, Bar Mitzvah

other than math (and I wouldn't want both of those in the same yr.  Ds spent the entire yr on the precal book and he says he is glad he did bc it gave him a lot of time to think about things) I wouldn't pursue most of what you have listed.  

What computer languages does he already know?  Has he only focused on Java?  He could learn C/C++. Has he taken intermediate python already? (even in grad school most of my ds's research is done in python.) 

7th grade is a great age to introduce a foreign language.  Meh toward macro and micro at his age.  I guess from my perspective is just bc he can doesn't mean he should.   I would let my kids pick a history topic that interests them. Same with lit.  If I had to outsource something for English, I would pick a comp class and keep the lit separate and let him create a reading list that really interests him.

FWIW, macro and micro are easy to study with something like Thinkwell and then self-study for the exam.  (modernstates.org has AP macro and micro courses.....zero pressure/stress. )  He can do this later on in high school.

 

[MamaSprout]

I went back and looked at 7th for us. Dd was a young 7th grader. She did-

Latin 1Henle

French 1A  (I'm calling it 1A because of where French 2 landed). We were just doing the next thing at that point.

High School American Lit & Comp with co-op. The discussion level of the in-person class was about right for her and she had fun.

High School Physics with lots of non-fiction science reading (Disappearing Spoon type stuff)

A now-gone middle school leadership program through Notre Dame that had written output with essays and personal statements, etc.

EMF- ETA maybe she didn't do that until the next year? We had some other books she worked through for fun math, I think.

Geometry

Geography with a high school book and lots of bunny trails. ETA- I just looked at lewelma's post, and weirdly the Economist and National Geographic were a big part of that year for us, too.

I think that was the year she did the Animation course on Khan, maybe? I was doing a lot of local science programming that year, and she helped me with that.

Lots of art, music lessons for two instruments, community orchestra, and lots of 4H stuff. Swim team.

~ Regular exercise has been absolutely necessary for this kiddo's mental health, especially in middle school.

[information removed for privacy]

Edited March 9, 2021 by MamaSprout

[Dmmetler]

I'd also look at high school credits. A typical on time load is 6 credits per year. Each AoPS course is a credit, as is each community college class. And your full year courses are pretty intense as well. I count at least 9 credits, possibly more depending on how you're counting the electives-in 7th grade. Also, this may not be a concern since you're in CA, but we ended up having to do a grade skip because otherwise, we had college credits that could not be reflected on the high school transcript, and risked not getting required classes in high school. For example, taking economics in 7th would have made it necessary to come back and find some sort of finance/economics course to tick a high school box later. Especially if Sasha ends up going to SOHS full time for high school, make sure he's not taking classes now that he will need to retake for box checking purposes to meet their grad requirements. 

 

I admit, I didn't do a terribly good job of that, and it took a rather tough fall semester Sophomore year  when my kid was spending 20 hours a week on Cheer AND took a full year's worth of credits in fall alone to realize that, yeah, I needed to back off and no, there was no need to do two math credits AND two English Credits AND two Language Credits,plus the heavy load of science and humanities my kid actually wanted, all at the same time. It was OK to do a math credit fall term and spend a little time reviewing in Spring, and to read and discuss books for fun in Fall and take a solid English class in Spring. It was OK to look at the requirements for an honors history class in fall and decide that other classes needed to be writing light. It was OK to move some stuff to summer. And it was OK to recognize that social time needed to be placed on the calendar, too.  Once we started looking at classes as credits over the course of a year, it became much more relaxing and fun. And, since everything went online suddenly a year ago (literally one year ago, L was on Spring break when her college announced that the rest of the term would be online, and Spring break would be extended by a week to compensate), it gave us some flexibility to lighten the load, because online college classes are much more of a slog than in person ones and tend to have a lot of busywork. Add college applications stuff to that mix, and if senior year had been comparable to 8th grade or 9th grade (7th ended up being the grade skipped), I don't think either of us would have survived fall semester!

 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Roadrunner]

Unless you want to graduate early, I don’t see any point of loading a kid with high stakes exams in middle school especially because he doesn’t love testing. If he loves programming, give him years to develop a portfolio. 
Intermediate Algebra textbook took an entire year (full 12 months) in this house and another year on precalculus. I get that classes go fast, but you will get so much more taking time on this and working a textbook.  You have time and time allows you not to cut corners. Give each book its due time. 
I am with 8. What is an end goal?

Ddmetler’s DD is graduating 2 years early. So it’s a different situation.  

[Clemsondana]

My advanced kid specifically does not want to graduate early - they have some extracurriculars that they know will end once they are done with high school - although they are interested in taking college classes as needed.  They worked through both AoPS and Life of Fred for both algebras because they liked getting 2 perspectives on everything.  We did Number Theory and C&P in middle school, taking a semester on each.  We chose a mix of co-op classes (mostly enrichment) and home-done (most academics).  Even has we get into high school my kid is uninterested in being limited to AP content and also being rushed through subjects to fit with AP scheduling. So, they are opting to self-study for AP rather than take AP classes, and if we don't feel like we're in a good spot to study for the test, we'll just count it as a regular credit.  For that reason, we haven't looked at AP classes - unless you switch providers, you're kind of locked in to that level of work.  We're only doing AP exams if they fit what we are already planning to do, content=wise - this year kid is taking the AP Chem exam, having used a school's AP syllabus loosely as a guide.  But, this kid takes tests for fun with Science Olympiad.  I definitely wouldn't put the pressure of an AP test on a middle schooler who struggles with tests.  

And, as my kid now has an entire slate of high school classes, they are finding that the time commitment is bigger.  We used middle school to do some fun classes that freed up time for kiddo to read and spend a lot of time outside, which seemed to be what they needed at that age.  The amount of work in high school classes is leading to a much more regimented lifestyle since they have extracurriculars that take time.  I think kid is doing fine with it, but I also think that they are glad that they didn't start this lifestyle any earlier.  

[SeaConquest]

Thanks so much for the feedback. This is all super helpful and exactly the kind of advice that I was wanting, so thank you! To answer some questions:

The goal is not to graduate early. His current plan (and I honestly cannot imagine that this will change) is to stay at home and apply as a freshman with his age mates. Because, he already covered middle school level classes when he was in elementary, he's covered high school content in certain subjects already because that was the next step for him. He sat for the CHSPE and applied to OHS so that he could take advanced level courses while still in high school. He also applied to OHS for the community. He has enjoyed his charter school community, but he is running out of classes to take at his charter. We hope that the community at OHS (with their many clubs, homerooms, and meetups) will allow him to continue to homeschool through the teen years, picking up some of the socialization aspects that he is losing as he ages out of his charter enrichment classes locally. 

He already took AoPS Intro to CP/NT and is currently in Intermediate CP now. He takes the AMC 8/10 for fun, but doesn't study for them. He wants to get to Calculus only because he knows that is what is holding him back from getting to higher level physics. He already took algebra-based physics, but was beta testing it at his AoPS Academy, and the course had a lot of bugs in the system. So, I don't think he feels like he had a strong intro. I am not sure if that is necessary to take Physics C and do well, though?

He can already code in Python. He is taking a competitive programming class now with a USACO Platinum tutor. 

One issue is that I am returning to work FT this summer, so I will not be able to work with him very much any longer, which is why his courses are entirely outsourced.  

Organized sports of any sort have been off the table for a year because of Covid. Things have still not opened up and I am afraid that his Kung Fu studio may have closed for good. He plays guitar for fun, but is not a serious musician. He detests learning foreign languages, but wants to learn Russian in high school (because they speak Russian on the ISS), likely through one of the State Department's programs (so he can do it intensively).

He took Game Theory last summer with CTY Live and enjoyed it, which is why I was thinking that he might enjoy intro economics (assuming that he would take more interesting econ later). He is taking Game Design with them this summer, which was his first choice class. 

He thinks that he wants to major in Astrophysics and/or Astronautical Engineering, so taking intro college classes that knock out GEs while in high school will allow him more time in college to pursue a double major and/or other interests.

For background, since I know some cannot see my signature, his schedule this year (6th) was:

Math: AoPS Geometry (Fall), Intermediate Counting & Probability (Spring)

Science: Thinkwell Honors Chemistry (Full year), Art of Inquiry Astrobiology series year two (Full Year)

English: Davidson Online Academy Explore Writing in the Humanities (Full Year), Online G3 Shakespeare (Fall)

Social Studies: The Great Courses The Renaissance (Fall @ home), Online G3 Advanced World History B

Elective: CTY AP Computer Science A (Fall), Athena's World Religions (Spring), Intro Competitive Programming/USACO (Spring)

Extracurrics: Guitar, chess, Civil Air Patrol (Spring)

Edited March 8, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Roadrunner]

I think SOH is going to be just perfect for him. Don’t overthink it so far ahead. 

[SeaConquest]

41 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think SOH is going to be just perfect for him. Don’t overthink it so far ahead. 

Well, we are on the financial aid waitlist just to be able to afford one class, so I have to plan for next year. We cannot afford for him to go FT unless I get a sugar daddy on the side. I might be able to pay for one class out of pocket if we can add OHS as a vendor with the charter and I can get the grandparents to chip in.

[MamaSprout]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 He detests learning foreign languages, but wants to learn Russian in high school (because they speak Russian on the ISS), likely through one of the State Department's programs (so he can do it intensively).

 

Two comments. My kiddo did the Russian online NSLI-Y intensive last fall. When she interviewed for the summer program that didn't happen because of COVID, her previous language learning seemed to be valued. Also, her knowledge of both French and especially Latin were useful to her when she did the fall intensive. She had linguistic hooks to hang Russian on, if that makes sense.

[8filltheheart]

 

I looked at the competitive programming course you mentioned. Is he planning on programming in python or Java?  That will be giving him additional practice in that language. But does he know C or C++?  Has he developed his own programs for projects?  He doesn't "need" a class to program.   There are tons of  programming MOOCs if he needs a course to walk him through beyond AoPS or AP equivalent coding.  (THere is coding and there is coding.  They are not necessarily the same thing. 😉 )

In terms of physics, no he doesn't need a high school course before cal physics, but it sure will make it easier.  Derek Owen's physics class is great. 

I was going to make the same comment as @MamaSprout.  First, programs like NSLIY are extremely competitive.  They are looking for students who have demonstrated a desire to learn a language.  Russian is also a difficult language to master and no language background at all is going to make it more difficult.  I certainly would not put all my eggs in a gov't funded immersion program for foreign language.  I looked at StarTalk and last yr there was  only one residential program and it admitted 20 students: https://startalk.umd.edu/public/find-a-summer-program/?f[0]=im_field_st_language%3A41&f[1]=im_field_grade_level%3A98  Definitely not a foreign language high school plan.

To give an idea of the competitiveness of the state dept programs, dd applied 2 yrs in a row before becoming a CLS (college level of NSLIY) finalist and that was with 7 yrs of Russian, numerous awards, a StarTalk immersion experience, and a Russian major.  

 

[SeaConquest]

20 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

Two comments. My kiddo did the Russian online NSLI-Y intensive last fall. When she interviewed for the summer program that didn't happen because of COVID, her previous language learning seemed to be valued. Also, her knowledge of both French and especially Latin were useful to her when she did the fall intensive. She had linguistic hooks to hang Russian on, if that makes sense.

You don't have to convince me. I am a linguist myself, so you are preaching to the choir on the benefits. 🙂 I've tried with him. Really. He went to immersion French and Spanish preschools and was darn good in both when he was little. He has the aptitude -- he was great at Latin in elementary -- just not the desire. So, I have to work with the kid in front of me. If he's motivated to learn Russian because he connects it to his love of space, then I will run with that. And yes, NSLI-Y (but first, Star Talk) are some of the programs that we have talked about down the road as possibilities.

[SeaConquest]

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

 

I looked at the competitive programming course you mentioned. Is he planning on programming in python or Java?  That will be giving him additional practice in that language. But does he know C or C++?  Has he developed his own programs for projects?  He doesn't "need" a class to program.   There are tons of  programming MOOCs if he needs a course to walk him through beyond AoPS or AP equivalent coding.  (THere is coding and there is coding.  They are not necessarily the same thing. 😉 )

In terms of physics, no he doesn't need a high school course before cal physics, but it sure will make it easier.  Derek Owen's physics class is great. 

I was going to make the same comment as @MamaSprout.  First, programs like NSLIY are extremely competitive.  They are looking for students who have demonstrated a desire to learn a language.  Russian is also a difficult language to master and no language background at all is going to make it more difficult.  I certainly would not put all my eggs in a gov't funded immersion program for foreign language.  I looked at StarTalk and last yr there was  only one residential program and it admitted 20 students: https://startalk.umd.edu/public/find-a-summer-program/?f[0]=im_field_st_language%3A41&f[1]=im_field_grade_level%3A98  Definitely not a foreign language high school plan.

To give an idea of the competitiveness of the state dept programs, dd applied 2 yrs in a row before becoming a CLS (college level of NSLIY) finalist and that was with 7 yrs of Russian, numerous awards, a StarTalk immersion experience, and a Russian major.  

 

Up until Covid, they had Star Talk in Russian at SDSU. Pre-Covid, it was not a competitive program (I spoke with the director). It has been on hiatus in 2020 and 2021, but I am trying to be hopeful that it comes back. If not, we have Russian classes in-person at one of our local CCs. There is also CLRC for a slower pace. Worst case, he does have a base in French, Spanish, Latin, and Hebrew, if he wanted to pick those back up.

ETA: NSLI-Y is, of course, always a crapshoot, and I have no idea if he would even want to do that in a few years. It was just something that we talked about as a possibility.

Edited March 8, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Swimmer1112]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

He can already code in Python. He is taking a competitive programming class now with a USACO Platinum tutor. 

I see that he has taken lots of coding classes, but has he done projects on his own? Competitive programming is not about taking a class. A class and a tutor will help, but he needs to spend time outside of classes coding to be good at the competitions. My ds 7th grade is in USACO gold and puts in about 3-4 hours a day coding, some of the time is on USACO and some of it on his own projects. Ds has never taken a coding class, your can code without having to take classes and stress about grades. Does your son know C++, most platinum competitor and IOI use C++.

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, Marie.Sd said:

I see that he has taken lots of coding classes, but has he done projects on his own? Competitive programming is not about taking a class. A class and a tutor will help, but he needs to spend time outside of classes coding to be good at the competitions. My ds 7th grade is in USACO gold and puts in about 3-4 hours a day coding, some of the time is on USACO and some of it on his own projects. Ds has never taken a coding class, your can code without having to take classes and stress about grades. Does your son know C++, most platinum competitor and IOI use C++.

I don't know what he does on his own. I know that he makes some mods in Minecraft and other games, but I don't know anything about projects. He and his father made a skittle sorter that I think used the Arduino, but I really don't know. I am not sure where he would find projects. That's why I was trying to get him some kind of mentor. I am not really sure how to help him at this point, other than to put him in community college classes or expensive USACO classes like Alpha Star (which we don't really have the $$$$ for either). The tutors are all science/math/computing Olympiad kids who are donating their time to raise money for food banks -- that was something that we could afford. Right now, he is taking the competitive programming class and an advanced chemistry class (to go along with Thinkwell), and he is enjoying both. They have a lot of cool classes in AI and genetics and stuff that he likes, so I was hoping that those kids would keep teaching and we could keep donating and it would be a win-win, but I honestly am not sure how long this resource is going to be around once the pandemic ends. https://sciovirtual.org/  But yes, I think he will definitely be learning C++ along the way in the upper level programming classes.

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure why he needs to enroll in a computer programming class or why he cant develop his own programs. My college freshman taught herself java, python, and C++ using books and she is a very avg student.

There are also tons of moocs like this one:

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-096-introduction-to-c-january-iap-2011/

I think you could make his 7th grade yr more interesting by thinking less vertically and more out of the box.

[Not_a_Number]

37 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

The tutors are all science/math/computing Olympiad kids who are donating their time to raise money for food banks -- that was something that we could afford.

I actually think that would be a great way to go for him. Working with someone who really likes the subject and could show him lots of tricks and also just be enthusiastic about it can be very helpful. And honestly, I think that if you find a good tutor, that can be both more flexible and much better than a class. 

[Not_a_Number]

48 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I know that he makes some mods in Minecraft and other games, but I don't know anything about projects.

DH was once on track to becoming a serious computer programmer, and he said that the thing you most want to show aptitude in is building big projects. That means projects that actually need serious organizational skills, require many files, require new data structures, etc. For instance, I've now coded quite a few games, I've coded many worksheet randomizers that take in TONS of parameters, I've coded lots of functions that make my life easier, and I'm still not actually a professional programmer, because the biggest things I've ever coded have been medium-sized -- they required some organization but not a ton. 

The biggest thing I've coded in school was when I took a compiler class and I had to code up a compiler (I think.) That took a long time and real organizational effort. This was a 2nd year university class.  

Edited March 8, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[RootAnn]

58 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm not sure why he needs to enroll in a computer programming class or why he can't develop his own programs

I have kids who can teach themselves but don't & kids who go out & find projects to do. When motivated & with some help, the first kind can turn into the second. The second kind of kid just does stuff on their own. If @SeaConquest has the former, he can become the latter and maybe just hasn't figured out that's a good next step. Maybe he's already the latter kind of kid & we just don't know it. [My kids either want to show off their projects or need help when things get crazy. So I usually know. But not always.]

[8filltheheart]

10 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I have kids who can teach themselves but don't & kids who go out & find projects to do. When motivated & with some help, the first kind can turn into the second. The second kind of kid just does stuff on their own. If @SeaConquest has the former, he can become the latter and maybe just hasn't figured out that's a good next step. Maybe he's already the latter kind of kid & we just don't know it. [My kids either want to show off their projects or need help when things get crazy. So I usually know. But not always.]

Maybe, but we are talking about a 6th grader taking AP computer programming and looking at a full high school course load with DE for next yr.  If he is functioning at that level and $$ is an issue, I would expect him to be somewhat proactive.

[SeaConquest]

Not being a STEM person myself, and being in the final two months of nursing school, I really just don't have a clue if he has been working on any projects. He obviously has a heavy workload for his age, so he spends a lot of time doing schoolwork. In his free time, he mostly reads, plays pretend games outside with his brother, and plays video games (again, mostly with his brother). He also plays guitar, chess, and was learning kung fu and had his first glider lesson before Covid hit.

I just asked him about why he likes coding and he said that it is deeply satisfying when he solves a problem and everything just comes together. He said that he wants to learn to code so that he can solve problems in real life to make things easier, both for himself and other people. Projects that come to him are too advanced for his current skills or have already been done. He gave the example of robots that could fold clothes automatically, so that he has more time to think. He said that he wants to take a series of Outschool classes that will teach him programming in Unity, so that he could learn to make games. So, I think I am still unclear as to the type of projects that computer sciencey kids just spontaneously work on because I don't think I have one of those kids. He is more of a gamer, thinker, reader, and dreamer.

 

[RootAnn]

@SeaConquestHe can come up with his own game idea & code it. (Some kids have done this & put them up in the App store for free or $.) There might be something he could do with his guitar & coding. Others will probably give you better examples.

@8filltheheartHaving been around toddlers (not mine) who could read Harry Potter books but who weren't yet potty-trained, I usually assume non-linear skill progression in gifted kids. There's a better name for it but I'm having one of my bad days for remembering words (and names).

[Swimmer1112]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

I know that he makes some mods in Minecraft and other games, but I don't know anything about projects.

Moding is a good place to start, if he knows how to mod, he probably has the skills to create a chrome extension. My dd started this way and has made several chrome extension now.
You mentioned he has played around with Audrino, my son started out with that too and he became interested in autonomous cars, so dh joined an autonomous car enthusiast club to give him an environment to explore his interest and find a mentor to help him build one. 
 

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I am not really sure how to help him at this point, other than to put him in community college classes or expensive USACO classes like Alpha Star

Taking lots of CS classes will only give your son breadth and what he needs to do well in CP competitions is depth. DH did CP competitions in college and he will tell you that none of the classes really help him do well, the only thing that really help was practice and experimenting. It’s like the math competitions, you can take all the AoPS classes and still not succeed at math competitions unless you have the time outside of class to practice. He can practice learning new skills on Hacker Rank and practice for competitions on Code Forces and he can ask for help on the USACO discord. Most of the kids that make it to Platinum are not taking Alphastar classes, only the kids in the Bay Area. 
 

[Swimmer1112]

10 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

He said that he wants to take a series of Outschool classes that will teach him programming in Unity, so that he could learn to make games.

There are lots of YouTube tutorials on unity. He may also find Blender interesting, also YouTube tutorials. 

[SeaConquest]

I found the video that he made with the Skittle sorter. I guess it was the Mindstorm, not the Arduino (so he must have done some Arduino projects too). This was him playing around when he was 8. 

 

Edited March 8, 2021 by SeaConquest

[Swimmer1112]

46 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

He gave the example of robots that could fold clothes automatically, so that he has more time to think.

If he is interested in robots, perhaps he could try Vex IQ. This would expose him to the engineering process, from planning and designing to hardware and software integration. This would be a step toward him understanding what it will take to eventually building his own robot.

[Lilaclady]

I think you should also consider how strong his executive function skills are.  You have listed 9 high school courses that hw will be taking in 7th and you will not be available due to work. Will he be able to get all that done by himself. My current 10th grader who will be  DE in 11th will be taking just 7 courses as she will have a full load of extracurriculars that she wants to do.  She will be taking math , English and foreign lang both semsters and the 7th c;lass is a business course i am teaching at home.

I think it is better to scale down and see how he does in the first semester then if he can handle it, you can increase the work load in the second semester. You don't want to burn him out so soon especially since he s already so advanced. 

My current college freshman took AP computer sci and Micro in 7th but she was a strong student and got mostly 5's  and a few 4 in all her exams. She also took AP calc, AP lang and AP physics C Mech in 8th. But her schedule was not packed. We did school for about 4-5 hrs and we are usually done by 2 and then they could do their extracurriculars or other things. She did solid math competition all through high school as that is what she enjoyed. She did not take more than 7.5 credits in her high school year and was able to manage her course load without me there. 

[daijobu]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:19 PM, SeaConquest said:

 

 

He will take his first AP exam in May (AP Computer Science A). He tends not to be a good high-stakes test taker,  

... but it will likely be difficult to convince folks to move him into the next Java course (data structures) without an AP test score (relying just on the AP grade alone), especially given his age, which is why he decided to take the test to validate his learning. 

Math: AoPS Intermediate Algebra (Fall), AoPS PreCalculus (Spring)

Social Science: ?? (maybe PA HS AP Macro or Community College Macro -- Fall, Online G3 Adv Micro Econ -- Spring)

Elective: We are hoping that SOHS will allow him to take Data Structures, which is a post-AP CS course

 

For 8th, he is looking at taking the following:

Math: AoPS AP Calculus BC

Science: SOHS AP Chemistry (or PA HS)

 

My kids are excellent test takers, and they took the AP CS A exam as 8th graders.  There's a certain level maturity required for an AP exam, even for this easy one, and I didn't want my kids to have a bad experience with APs.  It turns out my dd was so stressed she stayed awake until 2am, but still got a 5 the next day.  We joked that my younger dd should stay up all night to guarantee a high score.  

Anyway, why do you need to convince anyone that your ds needs to learn more Java?  Can't he study whatever he wants?  

Just know that the intermediate level AoPS books, IMO, are a step up in difficulty from the intro books.  Has he already taken intro c&p or intro nt?  Why are you scheduling 2 year long math classes in one year?  I'll admit my kids aren't as advanced as your son, but it still took them over a year to get through each book.  

Re: AP macro, I'm not sure about the rush to APs for a kid who doesn't test well.  Why not save this easy one for his junior or senior year, so he can have a break when he needs it?  

If OHS doesn't let him take the CS class he wants, why not just have him study it on his own?  There must be hundreds of books on Amazon he can use.  

Two of the more challenging AP classes in 8th grade?  If he was a kid who enjoys tests (a celebration of learning!), then maybe.  In AP chem, every single week you redirect your attention to an entirely different topic and do a deep dive into that topic.  There is very little room for error or distraction.  Is he ready for that commitment?  AoPS calculus is terrific, but he will need the motivation to spend the month or so before the exam to do some significant prep work for the exam.  This additional work is not optional if he wants a 4-5.  (And there's no point if he isn't planning to score a 4-5.)  

Finally, consider reading "How to be a High School Superstar" by Cal Newport and you may rethink this plan.  

Edited March 9, 2021 by daijobu

[RootAnn]

18 minutes ago, daijobu said:

he already taken intro c&p or intro nt?

She posted his classes for this year earlier in the thread. He's taking intermediate c&p right now, I believe. Here you go. I think clicking on it will take you to the whole post.

9 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

He already took AoPS Intro to CP/NT and is currently in Intermediate CP now. 

....

He can already code in Python. He is taking a competitive programming class now with a USACO Platinum tutor. 

....

For background, since I know some cannot see my signature, his schedule this year (6th) was:

Math: AoPS Geometry (Fall), Intermediate Counting & Probability (Spring)

 

[RootAnn]

On 3/7/2021 at 2:19 PM, SeaConquest said:

Math: AoPS Intermediate Algebra (Fall), AoPS PreCalculus (Spring)

Science: Intro to Aviation & Airspace (Fall Community College), Aviation Meteorology (Spring Community College)

English: Integritas Literature & Composition (lower high school level -- full year course)

Why not just plan on one of the science classes, plus the math, plus Mrs Lange's English. Then, I'd have him spend time on coding projects as an elective. For social sciences, I'd let him read widely or deeply on topics of his choice. He could read on inventions, biographies of scientists, steampunk, colonialism, the Roman Empire, ... anything. If he expresses interest in a topic & you need book recommendations, the Hive should be able to help.

This would still be a crazy schedule, but give him some flexibility in terms of time. And, he has those high interest courses (the math which is a means to a goal & the aviation) to focus on. If he does well with everything & his CC class in the fall, he can add the spring one. Or, he can propose another elective credit to work on during that time.

Just an idea

Edited March 9, 2021 by RootAnn
Typo!

[RootAnn]

If he wants coding project ideas, type "coding projects" into the search engine. Lots of links came up for me including this one:

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/beginner-programming-projects/

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

She posted his classes for this year earlier in the thread. He's taking intermediate c&p right now, I believe. Here you go. I think clicking on it will take you to the whole post.

 

Thanks, the thread got too long and  stopped reading.  ☺️

[SeaConquest]

This has all been super helpful. Thank you so much for the advice. Sacha just started the Intermediate CP class last week. He started working on the problems today and said to me, for the first time, that they were *really* hard. It wasn't like one or two problems were hard; he seemed to genuinely feel that these were on a whole other level from what he's experienced in the intro classes (Intro CP and NT were not difficult for him). I re-read the description of the course and they suggested Intermediate Algebra before taking the course. I thought about what you all said about his schedule next year and we decided to drop Intermediate CP for now in favor of shoring up his proof-writing skills with old AMC 8/10 questions and challenge problems from the Algebra and Geometry books. So, he will take Intermediate Algebra and Intermediate CP next year (7th) instead, then Pre-Calculus and Intermediate NT (8th), and save Calculus BC for 9th. 

I will talk with him tomorrow about cutting back on some of the other classes to leave room for more project exploration. I remembered that he was interested in entering the Genes in Space competition next year, so that could be a different focus as well (if I can find him a mentor).

Anyway, thank you again. ❤️  

[rzberrymom]

2 hours ago, daijobu said:

Finally, consider reading "How to be a High School Superstar" by Cal Newport and you may rethink this plan.  

This! 👍🏻

[GoodGrief3]

I am going to chime in as the mom of one of those advanced STEM students. Mine has now graduated with an electrical engineering degree from Princeton and is deciding between three  top grad programs in her area of interest. Her current job is in coding for a company developing some kind of fancy microscope (it all goes over my head at this point).
Since you don’t have early graduation as the goal, I would be very reluctant to have him do all the AP classes in 7th and 8th grade. It seems to me that there would be value in figuring out a way he could broaden his experiences rather than the hard focus on advancing through high school courses. Sports, the arts, volunteering; down time to just read for pleasure or cook or...whatever. I do realize Covid makes everything harder. 
Good luck to you as you figure it all out. 🙂 
 

[SDMomof3]

@Seaconquest, I think our sons go to same charter. My son M is in 7th grade.

I just wanted to tell you that your son does not need AStar to do well in USACO. My dd's friend was an instructor at AStar and when I asked him about ds taking classes there he told us not to take them. AStar uses past USACO problems as homework, they just change the numbers and names. If your son makes an account on USACO he can look at the solutions that USACO gives out and they are very detailed. 

I saw that HackerRank was mentioned, my ds used that site when he was learning C++ and some of the algorithms. Your son should consider C++ or Java or the competitions. At the Bronze level it doesn't matter but at the higher levels most competitors use C++, it's faster.

It appears that your son is taking a very heavy course load, I just wanted let you know that USACO is a big time suck. 

Good Luck

Edited March 12, 2021 by SDMomof3

[SeaConquest]

21 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

@Seaconquest, I think our sons go to same charter. My son M is in 7th grade.

I just wanted to tell you that your son does not need AStar to do well in USACO. My dd's friend was an instructor at AStar and when I asked him about ds taking classes there he told us not to take them. AStar uses past USACO problems as homework, they just change the numbers and names. If your son makes an account on USACO he can look at the solutions that USACO gives out and they are very detailed. 

I saw that HackerRank was mentioned, my ds used that site when he was learning C++ and some of the algorithms. Your son should consider C++ or Java or the competitions. At the Bronze level it doesn't matter but at the higher levels most competitors use C++, it's faster.

It appears that your son is taking a very heavy course load, I just wanted let you know that USACO is a big time suck. 

Good Luck

Yep, they do. 🙂 Thanks for this feedback. It's very helpful.

So, S and I talked more, and I think we have a more manageable plan for next year. I am still open to feedback. 

Math: AoPS Intermediate Algebra (Fall), AoPS Intermediate C&P (Spring)

Science: Derek Owens Honors Physics. Since he is really repeating this course to become more solid after the buggy AoPS beta test, I don't expect that it will take him the full year to finish, but if it does, no biggie. If he finishes in the Fall, then he can either take Intro to Aviation & Airspace at the CC in the Spring or continue with more of the ScioVirtual classes in his areas of interest. 

English: Integritas Literature & Composition (lower high school level -- full year course)

Social Science: GA Pro Honors/AP Human Geography (he has the possibility to take the AP exam, if he wants, as the course is aligned)

Elective: SOHS either Data Structures or Programming in C++: Techniques & Algorithms

Extracurrics: Guitar, PE, Civil Air Patrol, Bar Mitzvah project, USACO Bronze/Game Design

 

 

[SanDiegoMom]

On 3/8/2021 at 8:58 PM, SeaConquest said:

This has all been super helpful. Thank you so much for the advice. Sacha just started the Intermediate CP class last week. He started working on the problems today and said to me, for the first time, that they were *really* hard. It wasn't like one or two problems were hard; he seemed to genuinely feel that these were on a whole other level from what he's experienced in the intro classes (Intro CP and NT were not difficult for him). I re-read the description of the course and they suggested Intermediate Algebra before taking the course. I thought about what you all said about his schedule next year and we decided to drop Intermediate CP for now in favor of shoring up his proof-writing skills with old AMC 8/10 questions and challenge problems from the Algebra and Geometry books. So, he will take Intermediate Algebra and Intermediate CP next year (7th) instead, then Pre-Calculus and Intermediate NT (8th), and save Calculus BC for 9th. 

I will talk with him tomorrow about cutting back on some of the other classes to leave room for more project exploration. I remembered that he was interested in entering the Genes in Space competition next year, so that could be a different focus as well (if I can find him a mentor).

Anyway, thank you again. ❤️  

My ds did not take Int C and P, but he did take Intermediate NT (8th). He is a slow processor and he really focused on literally JUST math and Connie's chem class that year! It was a bear.  He had always gotten in the blue for literally everything up until then, and struggled to stay in the green in that class. I did read Lewlma's and Quark's posts so I was prepared, and I prepared him -- mainly helping him let go of his expectations that he would be able to answer every question.  

Thanks for jogging my memory about Codeforces though! He doubled back to it and has been working on problemsets here and there for fun.