Dr. Seuss Books pulled for racist images

[heartlikealion]

Ha! Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I was misspelling the name. It’s Berenstain Bears all over. 

[heartlikealion]

My daughter says “sus” as slang for suspect. 

[Not_a_Number]

On 3/5/2021 at 12:48 AM, Spy Car said:

For me it was listening to Wagner. Aside from my exposure via Bugs Bunny as a kid, my introduction to the music of Richard Wagner came though the mother of a high school girlfriend who was a German Jewish intellectual who fled just in time.

She (the mom) would blast Wagner. I was immediate enamoured with the music, and often ditched my girlfriend (pretending I needed to use the restroom) only to be found hours later sitting with her mom, in auditory ecstasy.

Then I became aware of Wagner's virulent anti-Semitism and pretty much shut him out of my life for 45 years. I suppose I may have had a copy or two of the Ring that that I listened to (while feeling guilty about it) but that was about it.

As I was about to hit 60 I kind of thought "to heck with it," I can reconcile that fact that someone can be a genius and create works of incomparable beauty while having some pretty ugly aspects to their characters.

Bill

Interesting! I've never had such a strong reaction, for some reason. I don't know why... possibly some element of naïveté, to be honest. It all felt in the past. Not sure why, come to think of it -- maybe just the act of moving from a much more ostentatiously anti-Semitic country like Ukraine to Canada, where people weren't nearly as bad or at least as open about it. 

Anyway, I thought of this thread recently! I had been looking for a new mystery series, so I bought a Dorothy Sayers novel to try. And it is so far very heavily populated by Jews, or at least by Jewish stereotypes 😛. I always just sigh and ignore it. It never feels relevant to my own life, anyway. 

[Sneezyone]

9 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ok. Well, I don't know anything about Fox TV.

The somewhat dissenting article I posted - not all of which I agreed with, btw - was from a Biden voting Russian-Jewish American journalist who is politically liberal. Fox News may be louder than some of the less popular voices from the centre and left, but those voices exist, all the same. 

 

There is no small blurring of the lines between Russian and Jewish groups in this country on issues of this nature.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

There is no small blurring of the lines between Russian and Jewish groups in this country on issues of this nature.

Sorry, not sure what you mean? 

[Sneezyone]

10 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

 

Offence is an interesting concept. I know non-white people who would understand the 'Chinaman' image to be a stereotype, one that has the capacity to offend. Who would also agree that it's not really a good choice for school libraries, given existing anti-Asian prejudice and stereotyping. Who also don't agree with eBay restricting sale of the book. Who are not personally offended that an image, reflecting ideas and stereotypes of the time, exists. Who think it's amusing to watch white women act like the Suess estate removing some lesser Suess is a radical act of social justice.

Of course, there are people who are not white who are offended by the image, in the here and now, think restricting sales of such images is a net positive, and feel each small step towards rectifying stereotypes children are exposed to add up to progress on social justice issues. 

What I really dislike in this issue is the narrowing of opinion to The Right One and The Heretical One. 

The issue of how we deal with the fact that the art of other eras is influenced by its own context is an interesting one, with many potentially positive answers. 

Would I buy and read these Suess titles? No. Would I replace them in a school library? No. Do I think some of the images are offensive, not only today but also at the time? I certainly do. Do I think readers should be able to make an informed choice as to what they read their children, with no archaic and racist surprises? I do. 

In large part, my actions in regards to the books would align with yours. 

I just...idk...think how we deal with literature is worth thinking through, from multiple perspectives. 

 

 

There is no right opinion or wrong one but there are clearly pluralities of thought that do not support the continued promotion of these stereotypes, which is distinguished from the preservation of history by location (library/archive) and ongoing profit.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sorry, not sure what you mean? 

Russian media and groups have made common cause with conservative Jewish ones.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Russian media and groups have made common cause with conservative Jewish ones.

What are you considering to be "conservative Jewish groups"? 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

What are you considering to be "conservative Jewish groups"? 

AIPAC, among others.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

AIPAC, among others.

Got it. 

I really don't know that any of this is causal. Most Russian Jews I know of my mother's generation are incredibly skeptical of left-wing politics. It's a bit hard to blame them. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Got it. 

I really don't know that any of this is causal. Most Russian Jews I know of my mother's generation are incredibly skeptical of left-wing politics. It's a bit hard to blame them. 

Didn’t say it was causal (e.g,. One is the result of the other), or intentional, just that they regularly make common cause on these issues.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

Didn’t say it was causal (e.g,. One is the result of the other), or intentional, just that they regularly make common cause on these issues.

Yeah, I'm not surprised. Russian Jews are a receptive audience. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I'm not surprised. Russian Jews are a receptive audience. 

Neither am I but I wouldn’t be holding this group out as an example of mainstream thought within minority communities as a result.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Neither am I but I wouldn’t be holding this group out as an example of mainstream thought within minority communities as a result.

I generally don't find "minority" to be all that useful a grouping, frankly. Minority communities are very diverse. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I generally don't find "minority" to be all that useful a grouping, frankly. Minority communities are very diverse. 

I do. Yes, they are diverse but there are also unifying characteristics and cultural experiences that make group identification not only feasible but, in some cases, desirable. If one hasn’t received any benefits from that identification, which I don’t think applies to anyone really, I can see how that would seem less useful.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Weirdly, the actual storyline of Little Black Sambo isn't the problem - it's just that the book was saddled with some very unfortunate pictures (not done by Bannerman, who anyway set the book in India where she lived) and the names are... again, unfortunate.

Yes. I have to admit it was one of my favorite books when I was a child. We had a 60's version (this one) and Sambo and his family were clearly illustrated as Indian. It should have been retitled for sure. I just perused some older versions of the book and the illustrations were horrible. 😧

I loved pancakes, and the stacks of pancakes made for Sambo were my favorite part. I also delighted in his cleverness in outwitting the tigers. 

I thought of the book many times while reading this thread. It's interesting how we (speaking of myself here) immediately want to defend anything that has been special to us. It's human nature.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I do. Yes, they are diverse but there are also unifying characteristics and cultural experiences that make group identification not only feasible but, in some cases, desirable. If one hasn’t received any benefits from that identification, which I don’t think applies to anyone really, I can see how that would seem less useful.

I think it's useful for people to think of themselves as belonging to SPECIFIC minority communities. But no, I don't think there is a ton in common between all the different minorities, except a certain level of alienation from mainstream culture. 

For example, the NYC minority communities are in deep disagreement about the issue of testing. For some strange reason, the Asian communities seem to feel differently about it than some other communities 😉 . 

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

This discussion is bringing back memories. I was taught in school (not in America) that there were four races - white, black, yellow, and red. I remember posters with people on these colors holding hands to show friendship of nations. Wow, I am old. 

If you're old, so am I. One of the songs we sang the most in Vacation Bible School and church was Jesus Loves the Little Children: "red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight." 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it's useful for people to think of themselves as belonging to SPECIFIC minority communities. But no, I don't think there is a ton in common between all the different minorities, except a certain level of alienation from mainstream culture. 

For example, the NYC minority communities are in deep disagreement about the issue of testing. For some strange reason, the Asian communities seem to feel differently about it than some other communities 😉 . 

Alienation is, indeed, the commonality. Groups that DO NOT feel alienated and are benefiting from the status quo will not share the same views. Your example is not illustrating what you think it is.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Alienation is, indeed, the commonality. Groups that DO NOT feel alienated and are benefiting from the status quo will not share the same views. Your example is not illustrating what you think it is.

I don't think it's reasonable to say that poor Asian immigrants aren't in any way alienated, especially in the age of COVID. They just happen to be academically focused, so in this SPECIFIC way, they benefit from the status quo. But there are certainly ways in which Asians do not benefit from it, too. 

I think "minority" is a political grouping -- it's an alliance of people with very disparate values and needs. What they have in common is, as you say, a certain amount of alienation from mainstream culture, partially because they've experienced prejudice. Like all alliances, this one is fragile -- when the goals coincide, they stick together. When they do not, they fall apart. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think it's reasonable to say that poor Asian immigrants aren't in any way alienated, especially in the age of COVID. They just happen to be academically focused, so in this SPECIFIC way, they benefit from the status quo. But there are certainly ways in which Asians do not benefit from it, too. 

I think "minority" is a political grouping -- it's an alliance of people with very disparate values and needs. What they have in common is, as you say, a certain amount of alienation from mainstream culture. Like all alliances, this one is fragile -- when the goals coincide, they stick together. When they do not, they fall apart. 

The distinction isn’t POOR ASIAN IMMIGRANTS at all, again, a misreading. It’s 1st/2nd generation immigrants from all over, including Africa, where they were NOT minorities vs 3rd generation and beyond and native-born people of color. If you look at the actual data and stats, the benefits of immigrant scrappiness are non-existent by the 3rd generation. ‘Culture’ is a total oversimplification. Minority as a classification is somewhat ham-fisted but it is by no means meaningless. That construct is largely used by those who would have there be no analysis or consideration of policy and other impacts on groups in favor of purely one-off individual approaches.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

The distinction isn’t POOR ASIAN IMMIGRANTS at all, again, a misreading. It’s 1st generation immigrants from all over, including Africa, where they were NOT minorities vs 2nd and 3rd generation. And native-born people of color. If you look at the actual data and stats, the benefits of immigrant scrappiness are non-existent by the 3rd generation. ‘Culture’ is a total oversimplification.

I'm not sure what you're saying. I agree that the benefits are non-existent by the 3rd generation, but at that point, they aren't alienated and aren't immigrants. What's your point? There are still clashes between different 1st generation communities about the issues of testing. 

[Not_a_Number]

I also think there's a question about how much people assimilate versus how much they stick to a specific and separate culture. If you fully assimilate, you can expect there to be no cultural benefits. If you don't assimilate, like has been the case to some extent for the secular Jewish community and I'm sure some other communities as well, then there can be an uneasy relationship between your community and mainstream culture. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm not sure what you're saying. I agree that the benefits are non-existent by the 3rd generation, but at that point, they aren't alienated and aren't immigrants. What's your point? There are still clashes between different 1st generation communities about the issues of testing. 

I’m sorry, what? Is this based on the idea that by the third generation visual differences and cultural experiences don’t create social alienation? You want to hold up immigrant experiences as a reason why non-immigrants shouldn’t have ‘minority’ group status and then say that third generation people aren’t immigrants so they don’t count as minorities either?

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I also think there's a question about how much people assimilate versus how much they stick to a specific and separate culture. If you fully assimilate, you can expect there to be no cultural benefits. If you don't assimilate, like has been the case to some extent for the secular Jewish community and I'm sure some other communities as well, then there can be an uneasy relationship between your community and mainstream culture. 

WHY?! What are you even saying right now? Do you suppose the only way to benefit from Mexican culture is to assimilate to WASP culture? 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I’m sorry, what? Is this based on the idea that by the third generation visual differences and cultural experiences don’t create social alienation? You want to hold up immigrant experiences as a reason why non-immigrants shouldn’t have ‘minority’ group status and then say that third generation people aren’t immigrants so they don’t count as minorities either?

Whaaat? No, I don't think that non-immigrants shouldn't have "minority" group status. It's a fine status. I'm just not sure it's all that informative when it comes to people's values and opinions. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

WHY?! What are you even saying right now? Do you suppose the only way to benefit from Mexican culture is to assimilate to WASP culture? 

No, obviously not... I have no idea how you got that out of what I said. 

My point was that if you want to see cultural differences between groups, then the groups need to stay culturally separated from mainstream culture. If you're looking at 3rd generation immigrants, are there cultural differences on average? What exactly do you mean by 3rd generation immigrants? 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Is this based on the idea that by the third generation visual differences and cultural experiences don’t create social alienation?

For some people they do, and for some people, they don't? It sort of depends how your family tree goes. Most people in the US have ancestors that were immigrants not all that long ago. Not everyone retains that identity. Some people do. Some of it definitely depends on whether one has the ABILITY to blend in or not. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think it's reasonable to say that poor Asian immigrants aren't in any way alienated, especially in the age of COVID. They just happen to be academically focused, so in this SPECIFIC way, they benefit from the status quo. But there are certainly ways in which Asians do not benefit from it, too. 

I think "minority" is a political grouping -- it's an alliance of people with very disparate values and needs. What they have in common is, as you say, a certain amount of alienation from mainstream culture, partially because they've experienced prejudice. Like all alliances, this one is fragile -- when the goals coincide, they stick together. When they do not, they fall apart. 

I’m going to back away now because this is really not coming across well to me, at all. There’s a TREMENDOUS amount of history in this country of mainstream culture coopting and including various minority groups to increase/maintain majority power...Irish, Italian, etc. They use groups as needed to divide and conquer. As political or ethnic groupings, the designation is only fragile for that reason. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m going to back away now because this is really not coming across well to me, at all. There’s a TREMENDOUS amount of history in this country of mainstream culture coopting and including various minority groups to increase/maintain majority power...Irish, Italian, etc. They use groups as needed to divide and conquer. As political or ethnic groupings, the designation is only fragile for that reason. 

Do you disagree that minority communities can have very widely different experiences of the world and can have very different values? That's the thing that, in my opinion, makes the alliance fragile. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

WHY?! What are you even saying right now? Do you suppose the only way to benefit from Mexican culture is to assimilate to WASP culture? 

As an immigrant, the greatest thing about America is the ability to assimilate. It doesn’t matter where you are from, you can be an American. In contrast in Europe, it doesn’t matter if you are 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation. Your ethnicity will always be defined by own last name, your “blood” and it’s so difficult to be accepted. An Indian in French can never become French. He can with a passport, but French will not accept him as part of a French ethnicity. 

We have a culture here. You know you are an American when you meet another American abroad (despite of their color or ethnic origin).  I am firmly in a camp of “when in Rome, do as Romans do” meaning we form one whole linguistically and culturally even if the whole isn’t one shade but many different shades of the same. 

[SKL]

Re minority, I'm not saying the designation is good or bad, but I do observe that there is a lot discrimination and expressed distaste between members of different minority groups.  I see more of that than of them getting together in meaningful ways to help combat common problems.

I am not sure who all is behind it, but I do think there are forces that push the minority theme because they benefit from the way it distracts people [of all colors/backgrounds] from working together on common worthwhile goals.

[Sneezyone]

38 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

As an immigrant, the greatest thing about America is the ability to assimilate. It doesn’t matter where you are from, you can be an American. In contrast in Europe, it doesn’t matter if you are 3rd, 4th, or 5th generation. Your ethnicity will always be defined by own last name, your “blood” and it’s so difficult to be accepted. An Indian in French can never become French. He can with a passport, but French will not accept him as part of a French ethnicity. 

We have a culture here. You know you are an American when you meet another American abroad (despite of their color or ethnic origin).  I am firmly in a camp of “when in Rome, do as Romans do” meaning we form one whole linguistically and culturally even if the whole isn’t one shade but many different shades of the same. 

Most NON-WHITE immigrants CANNOT assimilate to the degree you describe, nor have they ever been able to assimilate to the degree you describe, even when valiant attempts were made. Which is why, by the 3rd generation, there is no residual benefit from the majority experience/scrappiness they came with UNLESS they were adopted into the majority culture, IOW white-passing. That’s erasure for power/convenience’s sake. PROTIP, a lot of Americans don’t accept the US nationality/full citizenship of non-white people either. That’s not a European thing, it’s a white people thing.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

PROTIP, a lot of Americans don’t accept the US nationality of non-white people either. That’s not a European thing, it’s a white people thing.

I don't think it's a "white people" thing. It's a "dominant culture" thing. Ashkenazi Jews like myself are pretty white, and it really doesn't help that much in terms of assimilation. The options are either to stop identifying as an ethnic minority (which, yes, is an option for me and not you -- I understand that this is unfair!!) or to have issues. 

In the US, of course, the dominant culture is white. So you could argue it's the same thing in this specific case. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think it's a "white people" thing. It's a "dominant culture" thing. Jews are pretty white, and it really doesn't help that much in terms of assimilation. The options are either to stop identifying as an ethnic minority (which, yes, is an option for me and not you -- I understand that this is unfair!!) or to have issues. 

In the US, of course, the dominant culture is white. So you could argue it's the same thing in this specific case. 

The fact that you, and others, continue to offer up assimilation and cultural erasure as an option/the solution to these ills is...something. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

The fact that you, and others, continue to offer up assimilation and cultural erasure as an option/the solution to these ills is...something. 

What exactly do you want me to say?? It's not a solution. It IS, however, what lots of immigrants I know actually WANT. I don't want it myself. But I certainly have lots of friends one of whose parents is Jewish and they are absolutely totally assimilated. They don't think of themselves as anything other than American. And what am I supposed to do about that, exactly? I'm just reporting what I see. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

What exactly do you want me to say?? It's not a solution. It IS, however, what lots of immigrants I know actually WANT. I don't want it myself. But I certainly have lots of friends one of whose parents is Jewish and they are absolutely totally assimilated. They don't think of themselves as anything other than American. And what am I supposed to do about that, exactly? I'm just reporting what I see. 

I want you to stop promoting the ridiculous notion that because something worked for you and yours it’s universally available to others and therefore a valid response to systems that disadvantage people and pit them against each other. Jewish isn’t stamped on your damned forehead.

[Not_a_Number]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I want you to stop promoting the ridiculous notion that because something worked for you and yours it’s universally available to others and therefore a valid response to systems that disadvantage people and pit them against each other. Jewish isn’t stamped on your damned forehead.

I just said it wasn't universally available. That was IN MY POST. And Jewish may not be stamped on my forehead but it sure damn is on my husband's. And it's in MY NAME. 

ETA: Also, I have an accent. I have no idea why anyone would think I'm coming at this from the perspective of someone who's able to blend in. I don't even WANT my family to fully assimilate. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Roadrunner]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Most NON-WHITE immigrants CANNOT assimilate to the degree you describe, nor have they ever been able to assimilate to the degree you describe, even when valiant attempts were made. Which is why, by the 3rd generation, there is no residual benefit from the majority experience/scrappiness they came with UNLESS they were adopted into the majority culture, IOW white-passing. That’s erasure for power/convenience’s sake. PROTIP, a lot of Americans don’t accept the US nationality/full citizenship of non-white people either. That’s not a European thing, it’s a white people thing.

Well, I think we are a century ahead of everybody else, and I speak from a very personal experience. And if we continue on the same trajectory, we will one day get to the destination. 
I disagree that religion or color somehow excludes you from being identified as an American. I think that could prevent you in other places, but here, I do think we don’t have to give up religious identity to belong. And yes, while we have ways to go, racial identity also isn’t what will exclude one from being an American. Really does anybody here dispute that being black makes you not be an American? Well I can tell you it would in Eastern Europe exclude you to ever become Polish for example. 
I don’t think people here realize how racist the rest of the world really is. Chinese, Easter Europeans.... I will stop naming. 
We really need to understand how much we have accomplished over the past century and attempt to stay on that path. I hate the group politics because I strongly believe it is putting us on a much more divisive path. 
One identity to me that comes in different colors and religions but is unified by language and values is a must for a functioning of a society. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Well, I think we are a century ahead of everybody else, and I speak from a very personal experience. And if we continue on the same trajectory, we will one day get to the destination. 
I disagree that religion or color somehow excludes you from being identified as an American. I think that could prevent you in other places, but here, I do think we don’t have to give up religious identity to belong. And yes, while we have ways to go, racial identity also isn’t what will exclude one from being an American. Really does anybody here dispute that being black makes you not be an American? Well I can tell you it would in Eastern Europe exclude you to ever become Polish for example. 
I don’t think people here realize how racist the rest of the world really is. Chinese, Easter Europeans.... I will stop naming. 
We really need to understand how much we have accomplished over the past century and attempt to stay on that path. I hate the group politics because I strongly believe it is putting us on a much more divisive path. 
One identity to me that comes in different colors and religions but is unified by language and values is a must for a functioning of a society. 

Talk to Rashida Tlaib or Keith Ellison or anyone else on the receiving end of deliberate voter disenfranchisement efforts. You may hate group politics but it’s not minority groups who have used group identity to withhold power and constrain the rights of others. It is only because of those identity groups collectively organizing that we have as many rights for women, racial, ethnic, sexual, and gender minorities as we do.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Talk to Rashida Tlaib or Keith Ellison or anyone else on the receiving end of deliberate voter disenfranchisement efforts. You may hate group politics but it’s not minority groups who have used group identity to withhold power and constrain the rights of others. It is only because of those identity groups collectively organizing that we have as many rights for women, racial, ethnic, sexual, and gender minorities as we do.

And you know very well that I more than approve of those groups collectively organizing. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

And you know very well that I more than approve of those groups collectively organizing. 

Clearly, you don’t. You just said that assimilation is the way, the truth and the light for those who can and ??? For those who can’t. In addition, the very use of the term ‘minority’ is meaningless and inutile b/c it doesn’t represent the minority of a minority of a minority that you know is doing just great.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

Clearly, you don’t. You just said that assimilation is the way, the truth and the light for those who can and ??? For those who can’t. In addition, the very use of the term ‘minority’ is meaningless b/c it doesn’t represent the minority of a minority of a minority that you know is doing just great.

I didn't say that. I didn't say any of that 😕 . I don't want to assimilate myself and I don't think it's the right way forward for society. And I don't think it's a meaningless term, but it's not a cohesive group. I think this conversation is clearly showing that it's not a cohesive group, frankly, since you, me and Roadrunner are all very visible minorities and we have fundamental disagreements.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't say that. I didn't say any of that 😕 . I don't want to assimilate myself and I don't think it's the right way forward for society. And I don't think it's a meaningless term, but it's not a cohesive group. I think this conversation is clearly showing that it's not a cohesive group, frankly, since you, me and Roadrunner are all very visible minorities and we have fundamental disagreements.

1st/2nd gen immigrants are a VERY, VERY small population of people in America. I get that you think our experiences should be similar but we lack common history and understanding of how this country works. That is true even for immigrants who look like me. I have not found that to be the case with my multiethnic/religious friends whose families have been here for much longer stretches. The fundamental understanding of what America is and has been is sometimes insurmountably different.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

1st/2nd gen immigrants are a VERY, VERY small population of people in America. I get that you think our experiences should be similar but we lack common history and understanding of how this country works. I have not found that to be the case with my multiethnic/religious friends whose families have been here for much longer stretches.

No, I don't think our experiences are similar -- I agree with that. It's a very different perspective on being a minority. In some ways, my husband's perspective is more similar (the fact that he's Jewish is really obvious -- you're going to have to trust me on that one), although of course it's not the same. And he also thought of me as naive when we started dating more than a decade ago, although I don't think he thinks of me that way now. As you say, I didn't know how the culture worked. 

I believe you're wrong about immigrants being a small population. Quoting from here: 

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/

The foreign-born population residing in the U.S. reached a record 44.8 million, or 13.7% of the U.S. population, in 2018. This immigrant population has more than quadrupled since the 1960s, when the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act took effect. Though growth has begun to slow in recent years, the number of immigrants living in the United States is projected to almost double by 2065.

That's many more than there are Jews (which there are 7 million of) and I think is similar to the number of Black people. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

No, I don't think our experiences are similar -- I agree with that. It's a very different perspective on being a minority. In some ways, my husband's perspective is more similar (the fact that he's Jewish is really obvious -- you're going to have to trust me on that one), although of course it's not the same. And he also thought of me as naive when we started dating more than a decade ago, although I don't think he thinks of me that way now. As you say, I didn't know how the culture worked. 

I believe you're wrong about immigrants being a small population. Quoting from here: 

https://www.pewresearch.org/hispanic/2020/08/20/facts-on-u-s-immigrants/

The foreign-born population residing in the U.S. reached a record 44.8 million, or 13.7% of the U.S. population, in 2018. This immigrant population has more than quadrupled since the 1960s, when the 1965 Immigration and Naturalization Act took effect. Though growth has begun to slow in recent years, the number of immigrants living in the United States is projected to almost double by 2065.

That's many more than there are Jews (which there are 7 million of) and I think is similar to the number of Black people. 

First of all, you specifically singled out Asian Americans as the model minority that values education so they’re Gucci. Then you said Russian Jews can assimilate and want to do it so they’re Gucci. Now you want to compare the percent of immigrants to the number of self-identified black people (which is not, BTW, all URMs)? What is your point? It’s a minority of a minority, just as I said.

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Talk to Rashida Tlaib or Keith Ellison or anyone else on the receiving end of deliberate voter disenfranchisement efforts. You may hate group politics but it’s not minority groups who have used group identity to withhold power and constrain the rights of others. It is only because of those identity groups collectively organizing that we have as many rights for women, racial, ethnic, sexual, and gender minorities as we do.

I think we have a common ground - we agree on the past. We don’t agree on how to move forward. That’s OK. We don’t need to agree. It’s important though to have those conversations. 

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

First of all, you specifically singled out Asian Americans as the model minority that values education so they’re Gucci. Then you said Russian Jews can assimilate and want to do it so they’re Gucci.

I didn't say Russian Jews want to fully assimilate -- in fact, most don't, they want to stay identified as Jewish. I didn't call anyone Gucci, and I'm sure I could have picked less charged examples of minority communities at loggerheads -- honestly, I am now very sorry I mentioned that one, because it's so loaded. It didn't mean much of anything except that I don't think the minority community is monolithic and I knew of that one without doing any research. 

 

Quote

Now you want to compare the percent of immigrants to the number of self-identified black people (which is not, BTW, all URMs)? What is your point? It’s a minority of a minority, just as I said.

My point is that there are a heck of a lot of first generation immigrants. There's no deeper point there. You said it's a small number. I'm pointing out it's more than 10 percent of the population. I should have probably not compared it to any other numbers. 

This conversation is definitely making me feel like the opinions of first generation immigrants don't matter to people for whom the minority designation is an important concept. Because I'm feeling like there's no room for anything I may have to say in this conversation. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

I think I'm going to need a break from this conversation 😕 . Please don't tag me or quote me. I am obviously not managing to communicate what I'm trying to say, and I find that feeling very frustrating. 

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't say Russian Jews want to fully assimilate -- in fact, most don't, they want to stay identified as Jewish. I didn't call anyone Gucci, and I'm sure I could have pick less charged examples of minority communities at loggerheads -- honestly, I am now very sorry I mentioned that one, because it's so loaded. It didn't mean much of anything except that I don't think the minority community is monolithic and I knew of that one without doing any research. 

 

My point is that there are a heck of a lot of first generation immigrants. There's no deeper point there. You said it's a small number. I'm pointing out it's more than 10 percent of the population. I should have probably not compared it to any other numbers. 

This conversation is definitely making me feel like the opinions of first generation immigrants don't matter to people for whom the minority designation is an important concept. Because I'm feeling like there's no room for anything I may have to say in this conversation. 

Contribute away! I’m simply saying that, as a recent immigrant, you make a lot of broad, sweeping statements about how this country works that are difficult to back up.