Thoughts on MFA in Creative Writing?

[1234]

Ds will be starting his senior year of college in the fall and is thinking of going for a MFA. He is currently a double major in Psych and English with a concentration in Creative Writing. He has no debt from his undergrad and there seem to be several fully funded and partially funded programs. I’m sure they are crazy competitive though! He’s had a few professors reach out to encourage this path and offer letters of recommendation though so I’m assuming he would have a good shot at one of them. He’s also willing to take on some debt since he doesn’t currently have any if it’s worth it.

Any thoughts or experience? Something else we should look into? This is our oldest and neither dh nor I went past a BA so no experience here. 

[regentrude]

For me, the most important question would be: what kind of career path is he thinking of?

I am totally in the camp of no-education-is-ever-wasted. However, many folks embarking on an MFA in creative writing imagine that they will become college professors. They need to be aware that competition for jobs in academia is fierce, that tenure track jobs are very rare, that adjuncting is hard and sucky, and that almost nobody can make a living doing creative writing.
He needs to go into the program fully aware of these things.

ETA: I have looked into MFA programs for myself. I'm drawing a blank when it comes to the statement of purpose required for the application... ummm, to become a better writer? I certainly don't want to teach English composition to freshmen, thank you very much

Edited February 26, 2021 by regentrude

[1234]

30 minutes ago, regentrude said:

For me, the most important question would be: what kind of career path is he thinking of?

I am totally in the camp of no-education-is-ever-wasted. However, many folks embarking on an MFA in creative writing imagine that they will become college professors. They need to be aware that competition for jobs in academia is fierce, that tenure track jobs are very rare, that adjuncting is hard and sucky, and that almost nobody can make a living doing creative writing.
He needs to go into the program fully aware of these things.

ETA: I have looked into MFA programs for myself. I'm drawing a blank when it comes to the statement of purpose required for the application... ummm, to become a better writer? I certainly don't want to teach English composition to freshmen, thank you very much

He doesn’t want to teach. His ultimate dream would be to make it as an author (which he already knows is close to impossible) so he’s only looking at it as a way to become a better writer. I’m not even sure if he would be going straight to grad school if Covid hadn’t completely screwed up his Junior year (study abroad and internship canceled). He’s thinking this would give him better skills, more time to make connections/future job opportunities, and time to truly figure out which direction he wants to take.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Joker2

[Lori D.]

 

7 hours ago, Joker2 said:

Ds will be starting his senior year of college in the fall and is thinking of going for a MFA. He is currently a double major in Psych and English with a concentration in Creative Writing. He has no debt from his undergrad and there seem to be several fully funded and partially funded programs...

Any thoughts or experience? Something else we should look into? ...

If there would be no debt attached to the Master's, and if it would help him become a better writer, then go and enjoy! But, don't expect an MFA to help you get published, or to be the first step on the path of becoming a successful published author as the career. Or that a Master's diploma will translate into a career job in a field related to Creative Writing. See below for why I say that.
 

3 hours ago, Joker2 said:

He doesn’t want to teach. His ultimate dream would be to make it as an author so he’s only looking at it as a way to become a better writer... He’s thinking this would give him better skills and more time to make connections/future job opportunities.

Teaching IS the most frequent paying job that comes out of an MFA in Creative Writing. Realistically, the odds of an MFA helping you become a published author are slim. Again, see below for why I say that.


I first just want to say that I absolutely SUPPORT the arts -- writing/literature, fine arts, studio arts, digital arts, etc. And I always feel gut-punched when I see schools axing the arts as the first thing to go in budget cuts. My comments below are from our first-hand experience with an MFA in Creative Writing and how, while it DID improve writing and form friendships, it did NOT directly get anyone published or necessarily lead to contacts in the publishing world. And no one is earning a living from writing. That said, here is our experience:

After my DH retired, he earned his MFA in Creative Writing: Poetry (2016). His goals were:
1. self-education
2. to accomplish the goal of a Master's degree that had been his dream for decades
3. to get to work closely with this particular group of teachers/mentors and visiting guest teachers
4. to get to work closely with a community of writers to mutually encourage each other through the program and in their writing

It's a good thing we had his retirement to live on, as he could not have worked and done the program simultaneously -- it is an intense amount of reading and writing. Also, it's a good thing that when he retired we got a big chunk of money as part of his retirement payout, as an MFA in Creative Writing is EXPENSIVE, esp. since DH was not eligible for any financial aid or scholarships. (Believe me, I looked. 😉 ) And it's especially a good thing that none of DH's goals were to get published or earn money from publishing, because poetry is HARD to get published, and just doesn't sell like Stephen King thrillers. 😉 

Of the fellow students in the program, about half were returning adults (age 30-60), and half were early/mid-20s who were new Bachelor grads moving straight into getting their MFAs. Almost everyone had the goal of having their work published. A number of the older returning adults also had the additional goal of the MFA helping get them a secure position in teaching writing in a college program.

Of DH's cohort and the overlapping cohorts -- while a few have published or self-published, none are making a living from their writing. Close to half are teaching. The MFA DID help several of them land good teaching jobs in university English departments, and one man has been able to work his way from Freshman Comp. courses to teaching second year literature classes and a creative writing course. Some are married and are the stay-at-home parent raising children and writing occasionally while the spouse has the job that pays the bills. A few are working in publishing or do editing work. And a few are tutoring or doing completely unrelated jobs to pay the bills while trying to get published.

All of the teaching mentors and guest teachers were published authors. None earn their living from writing. All were teachers in creative writing programs in universities across the country.

I'm linking 3 blog articles below, as this is exactly how I have seen the MFA in Creative Writing play out through DH's cohort. The bolded text in the first excerpt is things we found to be especially true.

The pragmatist in me would say: because of the economy and high cost of college: 
1. get whatever additional training, education, or degree will best help with getting a stable job with decent pay and benefits
2. find good resources for learning more about writing, and esp. a group of other writers for workshopping and support
3. read, read, read, read, read and exposure yourself to all kinds of wonderful use of language to inspire you
4. establish a regular daily writing habit
5. learn about the publishing world, and also research the possibility of self-publishing
6. keep at it -- don't be discouraged if it takes many years or more to get something published
7. don't put your life on hold waiting to get published -- enjoy life, try new things, develop hobbies and interests, travel, get married/have a family (if that is desired), etc.

BEST of luck in deciding where to go from here! Warmest regards, Lori D.

_________________________________________

1. "Does MFA = Publication" -- blog post by published YA author (no MFA) Laurie Halse Anderson
   (also, read this article by John Scalzi that she links in that blog post)

2.  "The Money" -- another blog post by Laurie Halse Anderson
   (also, read this blog article that she links in her blog post) 

3.  "3 Myths About the MFA in Creative Writing" -- blog article by Jane Friedman
She did get an MFA in Creative Nonfiction, has worked in publishing, broadcasting, and is now an entrepreneur. Yes, her website is promoting/selling her books about how to get published and classes for "Do It Yourself MFA" -- but her insight on that home page is spot-on.

From the article by Jane Friedman:

"... Myth #2: The MFA Is a Shortcut to Getting Published
...Ultimately getting published is a matter of putting your backside in the chair and writing the best book possible. For that, you don’t need an MFA.

Myth #3: An MFA Program Will Force You to Make Writing a Priority
If you can find time to write only by putting your life on hold and plunging into a graduate program, then your writing career isn’t going to last very long. Only a small percentage of writers can support themselves and their loved ones through writing alone. This means you must find a balance between your writing and the rest of your life...

...the magic equation [of a] Master in Fine Arts degree in Creative Writing is...  a lot of writing, reading, and building community. In the workshops, you exchange critiques with other writers and work toward a manuscript that becomes your thesis project. Most programs also require you to take literature courses both in and outside your chosen area of literature. Finally, you are asked to attend readings or talks by other writers—to build your personal writing community. To create a personalized, do-it-yourself MFA, you have to find a way to combine these three elements.

... MFA programs are not a bad thing. In fact, they are exceptional at serving a small and very specific group of writers. If you write literary fiction, creative nonfiction, or poetry, and if you thrive in a formal academic environment, then the traditional MFA is a great option. If you can afford the tuition without taking out loans, and if you have the time to make the most of the experience, then you are one of those ideal candidates for graduate school."

___________________________

Finally, below is a large excerpt from an OLD article (written over 20 years ago), but from the limited view I have had of students earning an MFA in Creative Writing, and from the 2 more recent blog articles linked above, this seems very pertinent still today:

"What Becomes of an MFA?"
The Chronicle of Higher Education
by Daniel Grant, author of The Writer’s Resource Handbook
Feb. 26, 1999

"Creative-writing programs generally highlight their value in bettering one’s writing skills, but the Master of Fine Arts is also a career degree, for which students have certain expectations. According to the directors of these programs, many if not most of their students expect that they will have an inside track to a job in teaching or publishing, either through the strength of the degree itself or through their professors... 

So, what happens to creative-writing graduates? With only rare exception, programs only have anecdotes... 

In 1995, the University of Florida at Gainesville sent out a questionnaire to graduates of its program from the preceding 10 years (40 per cent responded). Of those graduates, roughly 60 per cent were teaching on the college level (although more than half of them were adjunct faculty), 10 per cent were working in publishing or actual writing (technical writing, for the most part), another 10 per cent were employed in fields unrelated to writing, and the remaining 20 per cent were pursuing another degree. Academia has both an official job market (listed positions, tenure- track or otherwise, each of which attracts between 100 and 200 applications) and a much larger unofficial job market of adjunct positions.

Teaching experience -- and the M.F.A. degree itself -- count. but only so much. Applicants for listed jobs in creative writing are expected to have a body of published work, which increasingly includes one or more books with reputable publishers. Most M.F.A. students do not have a book by the time they graduate and would not meet the requirements for these jobs. 

If the aim is to teach on the college level, students must focus on producing book-length manuscripts and getting them published. But how do they support themselves until then? Something has to give, and it’s usually the writing. A large portion of M.F.A. graduates never publish anything after they complete the program.

At the University of Iowa, Mr. Conroy believes that group to be 25 per cent; William Logan at Indiana University estimates the number at 50 per cent; and Thomas Russell, director of Memphis State University’s program, claims that “90 per cent of the students are never going to publish a word after they leave the program.”

A survey of past graduates of Columbia University’s creative-writing program found a high percentage of real-estate brokers, social workers, employees of insurance companies and advertising agencies, school guidance counselors, proofreaders and college-level freshman composition teachers whose publication experience was nonexistent or modest at best. Many reasons are given for the failure of writers to publish, including:

• Teaching requires so much time, even for adjunct faculty, that there is little remaining for writing.
• After they leave M.F.A. programs, most graduates return to the types of jobs they held before (if they had employment experience). Writing assumed center stage when they were in school, but the process of earning a living turns it into a hobby.
• A sizable number of M.F.A. graduates go on to complete other degrees -- the most popular being doctorates in literature -- and creative writing becomes a thing of the past..."

Edited February 26, 2021 by Lori D.

[daijobu]

Lori D's post is amazing as usual.  I follow a podcast that isn't really about writing, but because the host is a published author, he often answers questions about how to get books published. 

He emphasizes that publishers and agents are looking for books to publish.  But as a writer you need to really understand the industry, how agents do their jobs, what agents and publishers are looking for.  Don't just start writing and hope to get it published, until you really understand the environment and what you need to do to be successful. 

He also advises generally about graduate school, that you should not enroll unless you have a goal that requires this degree in order to reach it.  If you want to be a professor, then you must get a PhD.  If you want to be a doctor, etc.  

OTOH, if the MFA is fully funded (free?), it may be a golden opportunity to connect with other aspiring writers, really learn the craft, and just enjoy yourself for another year.       

[Lori D.]

9 minutes ago, daijobu said:

...He emphasizes that publishers and agents are looking for books to publish.  But as a writer you need to really understand the industry, how agents do their jobs, what agents and publishers are looking for.  Don't just start writing and hope to get it published, until you really understand the environment and what you need to do to be successful...

^^^ This!

And most MFA programs do NOT have information or coursework on the publishing industry or how to get published or what book agents are looking for.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Lori D.

[daijobu]

Your budding author might enjoy reading this article on how to become published in non-fiction.  Although weirdly, publishing fiction is completely different, so for that novel he will need to do his own research.  

Notably, step 1 is "Don't Write the Book First."

Edited February 27, 2021 by daijobu

[1234]

He has been applying for summer internships in publishing, so maybe one of those will come through. One of the MFA programs contains a publishing aspect as well so I’ll tell him to look closer at that one. Thanks so much for all the info!

[Lecka]

I read memoirs sometimes that are written by graduates of MFA programs.  
 

I also read essays sometimes that are written by instructors at MFA programs.  
 

I think there is a lot of writing out there!

 

My impression overall is that they love the program.  But if they have student loans from it, that can make it even harder to write because of the added financial burden.  
 

I looked on my Kindle, and a memoir I read recently was by Christa Parravani.  She is someone who did get a tenure-track job and she has published two books.  Edit — and she talks about her experiences with the MFA program she was in and where she teaches. 

 

I guess essays I have read might be from The New Yorker.  One author I liked turned out to have a sexual harassment scandal, boo.  
 

There seem to be writing workshops people can do, also, maybe that is an option to look into.  It seems like people who teach in MFA programs also teach writing workshops.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by Lecka

[Sycamore]

I got an MFA from a top-5 ranked program in my 20s. I was funded--tuition covered + fellowship money and teaching assistantship. I would not have gone somewhere where I had to pay money. It was a wonderful opportunity to connect with other young writers and also ostensibly have time to write and work on a first book. I had a grand time. Lots of wine and cheese with famous writers and amazing discussions and readings. I also was able to teach and work on journals and make connections. We had lots of opportunities to network with visiting writers--and many classmates used these connections and went on to publish books and get teaching jobs (adjunct at first--competition is VERY tight). I learned that I liked reading and writing and discussing/teaching reading and writing but did not like being my own marketing/PR department and did not like schmoozing or playing politics, so did not pursue a career in the "Po' Biz." The world of academic creative writing is very, very political in the sense of building alliances, flirting with older professors (or more) to get recs or blurbs, backstabbing and scandal, etc.--likely much worse in fiction than in poetry because real money can be at stake with a novel advance. Today much more than 20 years ago the world is entirely political in the literal sense (read about what's been going on the Poetry Foundation, etc.). I also know that many note the proliferation of these programs beyond market demand for writers/teachers and the way that "workshop poems" have homogenized contemporary American writing. All in all, I'm grateful to have had the experience but am also grateful that 1. I was paid to do it and not the other way around and 2. I never tried to build a career in that scene. 

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, Sycamore said:

The world of academic creative writing is very, very political in the sense of building alliances, flirting with older professors (or more) to get recs or blurbs, backstabbing and scandal, etc.--likely much worse in fiction than in poetry because real money can be at stake with a novel advance.  

Sounds like great material for a novel!  😄

[madteaparty]

(Have not read the thread). I’ve looked into these for myself. Not because I think I would learn that much in an MfA program (the same sort of people teach in, say 92nd Street Y classes), but I believe that one needs the brand name of the MFA program these days to get a query answered. Yes I know how JK Rowling did it, there’s a reason why that story is so rare. 
Anyway for me, there are only two programs I’m interested in. One would require me to move to the Midwest(not interested), the other would cost me more than my law degree. Bit rich for my middle aged blood but considering. 
I hope my kid pursues one when the time comes as he’s very talented but again I don’t think it would go anywhere without the brand name of a program. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by madteaparty

[EKS]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:03 AM, regentrude said:

I certainly don't want to teach English composition to freshmen, thank you very much

LOL!

I wouldn't mind the teaching part--it's the reading of student writing that would send me over the edge in a hurry.

Edited February 28, 2021 by EKS

[regentrude]

12 hours ago, EKS said:

LOL!

I wouldn't mind the teaching part--it's the reading of student writing that would send me over the edge in a hurry.

well... the reading and grading and giving feedback comprises most of the teaching job 🙂

None of my English prof friends complain about the actual class time, it's the dreaded never ending grading

[EKS]

Just now, regentrude said:

well... the reading and grading and giving feedback comprises most of the teaching job 🙂

I know--I'm actually qualified to teach composition at the local CC, and I can't even imagine dealing with all of those papers.

[BlsdMama]

I'd say the University of Iowa is THE obvious choice if he could get in.  Many MFA CW programs are free - if you can get in.  Have you heard of the magazine Poets & Writers - the do an issue each year on their top programs and provide a comparison.  It might be an interesting look through.  You can order last year's issue.

[Dmmetler]

I was going to suggest U of Iowa as well. They’re amazing.